Interview with Trenton Baylor

SOPHIA ABRAMS 0:01 This is Sophia Abrams interviewing Professor Trenton Baylor. Today's date is Wednesday, January 6, 2021. I am currently in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And he is currently in Caledonia, Wisconsin. And this interview is for the UW Black Artists Project. So my first question for you is why UW Madison for grad school?

Trenton Baylor 0:38 You know, I, oddly enough, I applied to, I think four or five other universities, and Madison was one of two that accepted my application. Being that I was already in Wisconsin, and kind of knew the UW system, and the other schools, it seemed like a natural fit to me. I also chose it because of its size. You know, it's, it's a bigger school, and I was coming from a smaller University for my undergraduate, and, you know, wanted to experience a bigger university with more faculty, you know, just more opportunities, and, of course, a different atmosphere and environment to kind of experience my college education. So it's one of the reasons. Second would be the program, the art department program, you know, it had quite a bit of flexibility built into it. Meaning I could start as a, a painting student, and I could go on, and I could try glassblowing, if I wanted to, I could do sculpture, you know, which allowed me to do a lot of different things that some of the universities wouldn't allow you to do; they wouldn't allow me to move around in the program quite so easily. So that was, you know, two of the main things, and of course, cost and being an in-state school versus being out of state was certainly a significant part of that.

Sophia Abrams 2:12 So this was, so you graduated in 1999. So this was 1996, I believe?

Trenton Baylor 2:19 Right. Yes.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 2:20 And so upon deciding, okay, I'm going to go to UW-Madison for grad school. I guess, what were your impressions of Madison upon, like, your first week there?

Trenton Baylor 2:36 So are you asking about, what my impressions of it before I actually attended school there, or my first week of actually being there?

SOPHIA ABRAMS 2:45 Both I guess.

Trenton Baylor 2:47 Okay.You know, my impressions of this, the campus in the school before I arrived were that, you know, it was going to be a really kind of a liberal space, and, you know, open and, and, you know, just a unique campus in which I was going to encounter a variety of different students, both those that looked like me, and kind of thought like me, and of course, those that were dissimilar than myself. And when I arrived, that was mostly true. You know, and I, you know, the first week or so, first semester, so you're really just kind of digging in and trying to figure out what to do. And it's a lot to, it's a lot to wrap your head around. Certainly, as I moved further into my, my education, I started to discover some of the fractures and flaws in the city and the campus itself, but overall, I think it was a good experience for myself. It's a good university, and there's diversity there if you seek it out. And there's opportunities for you to thrive and grow. And there's certainly opportunities if you want to, to, to really just find a corner and not be seen at all. And I did a little bit of that myself.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 4:16 From that, so your first semester in 1996, fall semester. What were some notable experiences during that first semester?

Trenton Baylor 4:31 Oh, wow, that was a long time ago. Notable experiences-- to me the most notable experiences were, from an academic standpoint, really forming some, some relationships with some of the faculty that I you know, I still kind of are connected with certainly my woodworking and furniture design Professor, professor, you know, we really kind of developed a, a relationship there, as well as a relationship with Truman Lowe and George Kramer. Unfortunately, both of those have passed. But those are, you know, really great faculty members who, who really kind of welcomed me as a student, but then welcomed me as an individual, you know, I could feel comfortable talking to them with some of the challenges I was having about being a student and being a student of color. Truman Lowe and George Kramer, both of those were Native Americans. And, you know, because of that, I, you know, they kind of welcomed those, those unusual conversations. George Kramer was actually pretty early on, even my first year, was pretty crucial in helping me complete my degree, in the sense that he really supported me throughout some of the challenges and made sure that I, you know, I stayed and stayed the course. So, pretty, pretty crucial to me. Outside of academics, it was just the city itself, you know, I, I had a pretty consistent routine of going to the studio and then meeting up with friends and, and, and at the same time, just experiencing the city and great food and, and people-watching and all that.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 6:38 Um, from that, I'm curious to know, you kind of mentioned George Kramer and Truman Lowe, and how you found that you could reach out to them and just have conversations, important conversations with them. So I'm curious to know, as a student, how did you find that your identity intersected with your art? Did you find that people had expectations on you because you were a black artist? Or did you find that people didn't really constrain you to like black art?

Trenton Baylor 7:15 You know, the faculty, I don't think really constrained me as much as I, I believe that other fellow students did. And I was not a student, I'm still not an individual who, who ties, you know, my, my race and ethnicity to, to my work, and it's not. It's not immediately evident. And that's always been the case for me. And like I said, the, the faculty didn't press that as much as my fellow students did. They thought, Well, you know, you're, you're an African American, why aren't you--? You know, why aren't you doing this in your work? Why isn't this president he works on so forth. And that was actually some of the conversations I was able to have with George Kramer and, and Truman Lowe to be able to say, even though I am an African American, and I choose not to put these things in my work. I think that should be something that I should be okay with. And they, you know, said, "Absolutely, you know, do you need to be comfortable representing yourself and putting the type of work together that you want to put together and to show to the world. And it doesn't have to be tied to your race, it could be tied to anything." So they were definitely instrumental in helping me form that, that identity.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 8:40 From that, before we jump on to your second semester of your first year, were there any notable exhibitions that first semester? Or maybe notable pieces or piece that you made that semester that stick out to you?

Trenton Baylor 8:59 No. To be honest, my first year was really about discovering, and kind of self-discovery. I actually started as a painter, and always wanted to, you know, really experience more sculpture. And I was kind of making that transition at that point from doing sculpture into more sculpture. I'm sorry, painting into sculpture. So the, you know, I can't say that I have a lot of pieces in mind that I think were fantastic or anything like that. But I think cumulatively they all kind of helped me make that transition. Exhibitions? You know, at that time, I was, I was in and out of the museums and galleries and on a regular basis seeing both professional works and being and also seeing work of my fellow students. None of them really stood out to me. But they all played a major part in me kind of helping develop my own style, my own philosophy and my own approach to making work. So no, there is no, there is no one.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 10:25 Mm hmm. Could you expand upon a little bit about how, I guess you could say, your first year, was like year of discovery in terms of trying to figure out, like, which medium you felt was like, you know, most authentic to you? And you kind of talked about how you're discovering, what's your philosophy and stuff? Can you kind of expand upon that in terms of what you mean by that? And how, like, what did that look like?

Trenton Baylor 10:54 Well, that's a long... How do, I how do I break that down? Hmm. So, in order to explain it, I guess I have to go back even further. I almost did not make it out of high school. I did well, as an undergraduate I kind of realized that, you know, art is actually an opportunity for me, and this is what I, I would potentially do. A reason why I'm telling you this is I actually wanted to be a carpenter, I wanted to be a truck driver, I wanted to do things in the trades. And, you know, just kind of sustain myself that way. But then when I did realize that education and art was an opportunity, and I could actually be paid doing that in some way, shape, or form a manner that then led me to really kind of work hard at being an artist. So once getting out of undergraduate where, of course, undergraduate was all about experimentation, you know, very much like my graduate school experience early on, my undergraduate was even more so about experimentation, where I did printmaking, painting, drawing, sculpture, all of it. So when I got to graduate school, I recognized and my faculty recognized that I really needed to kind of hone in on on what it is I wanted to do. Not to limit myself, but to really kind of hone in on a style, hone in on a design philosophy or philosophy of how you're going to make work to really kind of refine ideas. You know, what is it I want to express? Is it going to be conceptual? Is it going to be more formalistic? So it was the graduate school experience was, was really helping me through that part of the process. It was also kind of the opportunity to weed out some things that I was experimenting with early on as an undergraduate that I didn't think were necessary any longer. And I even, you know, so let's go back a little bit. As an undergraduate, I was really thinking about or trying to incorporate black identity into the work. And because of that, there was far more people expressed in the work. But then by the time I had gotten into graduate school, I started removing all representations of people. So if you, if you see any of my work, now, it's all form. It's all, it's all shapes. There are no representational details that would lead you to see it as people at this point, if that makes sense.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 14:00 That's really interesting. Um, I'll kind of like, circle back to some of those themes you mentioned. But I guess from that, you kind of mentioned just how like, in general, like the first year, like, as you explained, was like discovery and like, augmenting your philosophy and stuff. So now, let's go to your second semester. So I guess from that, again, like you were kind of saying like, there's not really too many other notable things, but are there any worthwhile events or people from your second semester?

Trenton Baylor 14:42 You know, it's, it's, it's almost hard to remember, you'll have to forgive me, it's hard to remember them as separate semesters. You know, because it was such a transformative three years of experience. I see it as kind of a collective of weeks, months and years, not so much semesters per se. You know, there, there were some fellow students that were in the studios down the hall for me that, you know, I can't even remember their names, but I could, I could almost draw pictures of what they were doing in their studio. And that was important to me, because we had pretty in-depth conversations about work. And, and, and work habits. And you know, just listening to one another in the studio that would form, that were formative. At the same time, I think, my probably second year, by the second, by the end of my second year, I really started to form you know, kind of stronger bonds and relationships with a couple people who, who were doing different work than I was. But I really, I really appreciated their approach to making work, as well as I appreciated the fact that they, they very much like myself, were experimenters. And we're doing a lot of different things not tied to one, one concept, one theme, even one style at that point. So that was, that was a positive for me, because it helped me understand that, you know, there is no one path, there's actually several different paths to expression. And that can change over time, if you want it to. So that was pretty important to me,

SOPHIA ABRAMS 16:44 From that, and kind of jumping into your second year as well. So I know, as a graduate student, like the first two years, you're working towards your MA and then you have your MA show, and then you have your MFA your thesis show. So what kind of research were you doing at that time to prepare for your MA show?

Trenton Baylor 17:08 You know, research in... Research for me came in the form of a lot of technical, you know, kind of research and experimentation. It's where I learned a lot of the technical things that I utilize now. Maybe even equal to the amount of work that I did on, you know, just studying historical approaches to form making or conceptual approaches to making art, you know. Some of the some of the things that I would go to the library, and I would research would be, you know, how does an individual go from a concept to a form, you know, what does that look like? Like, how do you, how do you get from the word love to a piece of stone that another person is going to see, and they're going to somehow recognize that as potentially love, you know, so that was the kind of research that I was doing. But then on top of that, I had to know, well, how do you actually carve that stone? You know, and what kind of stone is best for carving? What are the tools that you utilize the carve? So it became a package of knowledge that I needed to, to kind of express form.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 18:35 I guess from that, like, as you kind of talked about, just really trying to see, like, what historical approaches were and like how to kind of apply that to your own work. From that, can you kind of talk about themes in your work? So I know in the sheet, you mentioned how you're more of a formalist and less of a conceptualist and how, like, common shapes and designs are typically derived from nature and slasher machinery.

Trenton Baylor 19:13 You know, so it goes back to when I talked about wanting to be a carpenter, I talked about wanting to be a truck driver. So my father was a, a truck driver and owner operator. My mother was a teacher and then later in life, his social worker for Milwaukee Public Schools. But they also had, my parents had a wonderful garden in the backyard and well actually the whole house, the whole house in the backyard was landscaped. And at some point in time, my my parents yard was actually in a magazine, it was a smaller magazine, but it you know, had risen to the, to the level that you know, people came out and actually took highgrade photographs and then interviewed my parents and, and published that. So, you know, those two things played a major part in, in my work, you know, on the one hand, you know, watching my dad work and sometimes traveling with my father, you know, brought me into these spaces in places where you see how things are made, how they are, they're assembled, how they are moved across and around the country and around the world. But then I'd come home and help my parents plant flowers, sometimes from small little plants in a pot and watch them develop into big bushes or trees and, and flowering bushes, so on and so forth. You know, so those two things kind of shaped my, my identity, and these are things that I still incorporate in my work to this day. And graduate school really kind of helped me understand how to apply that history as work, how to turn that into work, you know, once again, it goes back to that, that research that I talked about.How do you represent the feeling that...? I'm talking about myself. How do you represent the feeling of walking in the garden and smelling these flowers, and pulling a plant out of the ground? Seeing the roots and understanding how that is part of the overall growth and development of that plant? How do you distill that down into form? And, you know, put it in a gallery and elicit emotion from it? So it was, it was that kind of it's, it's, it's really quite hard to explain that that was the type of work that I was trying to do as a type, type of work I was trying to work on at that time. Did that answer your question?

SOPHIA ABRAMS 21:56 Yeah. From that, I'm curious to know, you mentioned how you see your graduate school experience more so as you know, like, a series of memories and like, don't really think about it, like, as like semester by semester. But you kind of talked about, like, your first year was a year of discovery. And I'm curious to know, as you became, I guess, like, as you did your research, and maybe, like, discovered, like your appreciation for sculpture, like if there's any notable pieces your second year, that stick out to you?

Trenton Baylor 22:34 Um, yes, there is a, there is an artist by the name of Martin Puryear, who is an African American sculptor. And for some reason, I can't remember why-- it must have been a trip that we took as a group in a class, but I can't even remember now. But we went to the Chicago Art Institute, obviously, in Chicago, and walking through some of the more modern galleries, and I came upon this piece by Martin, Martin Puryear. And I probably stood there for 10 minutes, just you know, just an awe of this piece, partly because it was, one, it was a sculpture. And two, it was made out of almost all hand carved, hand constructed wooden components. On top of that, there were a couple just natural branches that he used for four legs for this piece. And to me, it just, you know, kind of brought me back to back to the, my parents' garden, you know, I could have found branches very much like the branches he used for the legs of that piece. I could have found that in my, my parents' backyard. And then the fact that it had a wheel on the bottom, and you know, kind of brought back the idea of, of trucking and travel and, and then it has a little box on top there that houses or that almost looks like a birdhouse in simplest terms. So that piece just really kind of opened up doors for me and really helped me to understand and to rethink what, what art can be and what sculpture can be. You know, because oftentimes when I tell individuals that I make sculpture, they almost automatically assume that I make figurative work and I'm going to carve a bust of someone or I'm going to make I'm going to make a shovel chicken, you probably see these things that are in gardens. But the Martin Puryear piece really helped me understand there's lots of different opportunities and lots of different possibilities of how to make work.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 24:57 From his piece, I'm curious, like, if you remember any of your own pieces or like any of your own pieces that stick out to you?

Trenton Baylor 25:10 No. You know, so for me, um, so I'll say this now, I don't often even call myself an artist anymore. I consider myself a maker. And the reason for that is to be an artist really requires that you not only go to the studio and you, you make work with a certain love and passion for. But it also requires a great deal of love and passion for the other side of art. And that is, you know, really working hard at sharing it with others, and wanting to talk about it, and wanting to explain it. Wanting to engage in that, that sharing process of the work. For me, that's not where it lies, I really enjoy the making of work. But that can come in many different forms. To me, gardening is just as much of an art form as me going to my studio and making a sculpture. And that's why I call myself a maker. Um, I had a point there. So what was your question? Give me your question again?

SOPHIA ABRAMS 26:45 It was just kind of your second year, were there any notable pieces that you made?

Trenton Baylor 26:53 Yeah, so there weren't. And so now what I'm going to say... There weren't any notable pieces, because for me, when I get about three quarters of the way done, I'm pretty much done. I will complete the piece, and I will complete it to the highest level of my abilities. But for me, it's so much more about the process of making the work than it is the final product. And there have been pieces that I've made, and I've given them away or I've I've, you know, if it's a cast bronze piece, I might melt it down and make it into a new piece. So there aren't many pieces that I would say are really pieces that I hold dear. Although there are three pieces I still have from my graduate work, my graduate thesis exhibition, and those were toys. Now, that's, that's later than what you're asking, you're asking about my second year. One of those toys was kind of the beginning point for the three toys that we use in my thesis exhibition, though. And, you know, once again, it was a toy. And the reason why that was important to me was I was making work or I was starting to make work that challenged what it is to be an artist. I really wanted to kind of up and the idea that, you know, everybody was going to go to the gallery, everyone's going to wear, you know, their best clothing, and they're going to be on their best behavior, and no one was going to touch anything, it had to be kind of this quiet contemplative of space. So I started making toys, which, you know, naturally require you to kind of play with them, make noise, pull them around and laugh, giggle and really just change, change what it is to be in a gallery space. And that partly is interesting, because it partly became or partly came out of the idea that, you know, galleries and museums and art in general, are, there aren't many individuals of color that you'll see in a gallery space, right? Partly because it's-- because of that stuffiness is because of the expectation that you have to know what, what it means to be a person that's going to view art when they walk in this space, you have to have the right vocabulary to talk about the work so on and so forth. You have to have the money to even enter into the gallery to see this space. So even at that point, I was trying to kind of open up the idea of what a gallery space could be, what a gallery experience could be, and thus the toys. So that was a pretty important piece at the end of my, my second year.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 29:44 I guess one question I have from that, you talked about how for you, the process is more important than the final piece. How was that philosophy received? Be it like from your professors or your classmates?

Trenton Baylor 30:01 Well, you know, so from my classmates, you know, we were able to talk about it, and they were able to understand where I was coming from. And it's not that I didn't finish my pieces, because I always finished my pieces. And even to this day, I'll always finish a piece, if it's worth finishing, I should say. But, you know, it did start to divide us, I should say, my friends and myself. It divided us in the sense that I was starting to already recognize that, hey, maybe I'm not an artist, and traditional sense that, you know, I really love to make this work, I love to hang it up on the wall, I'd love to have people gathered around me and for me to talk about the work. But instead, I'd rather talk about how it was made. You know, so there became kind of two groups of individuals, you know, those who are really more interested in how it was made, and others who are a little bit more interested in, and what it means. You know, so that was definitely something that I started to recognize early on. The faculty that were around me, you know, they encouraged me, they recognized that I, I really loved the experience of making work. But they really experienced, or they really helped me understand that I needed to, I needed to think about where I wanted to work to end up in the sense that-- Because I was so interested in the making of the piece. How do I want to describe this? Sometimes the piece was intentionally a little bit kind of rough. And maybe less refined. And other times, it was, the work was really super polished. Almost mechanically polished in the sensitive, was maybe less handmade and more machine made looking. So my, my faculty kind of helped me understand I needed to get off the fence, I needed to figure out which direction I wanted to go with this work, is it going to be work that is going to be a little bit less refined? And you know, a little bit more of the artist's hand represented there? Or do I want this work to be a really, a quite a bit tighter, neater, cleaner, not necessarily machine made, but just certainly far more refined. And I opted for the latter for to, to be a little bit more refined.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 32:50 And then one more question I had to, about your second year. Did you have an MA show?

Trenton Baylor 32:58 I did not. I chose not to do the, you know, because the MA at that time was, was optional. And and I think it still is, it probably still is optional. And there you know from what I could gather there really was no benefit of doing an MA show. And now we all were required to have a first year show, a second year show, and a, you know, your thesis exhibition show. And I don't know if they still do that at Madison now or not, but um so there was actually just a few people that I remember who even did the MA.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 33:42 From that we go back a little bit? Could you talk about your first year show and your second year show?

Trenton Baylor 33:51 My first year show I just had a couple paintings. Second year, that's when I started to do the toys, you know, the first toy and I think I had some other drawings and, and yeah, drawings and paintings. And then of course my thesis exhibition was all toys.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 34:14 Um, so then I guess before we jump to your third year, were there any notable events that happened the summer between your second and third year?

Trenton Baylor 34:23 Yes. See, this is what happens when you get old. You forget all this stuff. Hmm. So I believe that was the year that George Kramer approached me with the potential, actually he approached his sculpture students, his sculpture students who were, who were in the MFA program, with the opportunity of putting together a proposal for a public sculpture, it was going to be on the UW-Madison campus. And I believe it was that summer in between my second year, my third year, that, yeah, that would have been true, that I started to put together my proposal for for the sculpture. And, and I had to, I had to present that to the person who was commissioning the sculpture, as well as the campus and facility, you know, facilities because they needed to, okay, the plans, and, and all of that. So that was, that was pretty notable. Um, on top of that, of course, I was, I was working on developing, you know, kind of the ideas for the work I was going to make that last year, knowing that it was going to take me a full year, and then some to get it done. So that was a, it was a heavy lift for me that summer.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 36:23 So then, from that summer, kind of developing your ideas, what was that... What was the first semester of your third year like in terms of how did you apply? Or like, what did it look like to actually kind of, like, follow through with your ideas from the summer?

Trenton Baylor 36:45 Well, it went from, it went very quickly from planning to, to making, and I'm pretty systematic. So I kind of developed a schedule for myself and already knew what work I wanted to make and what things I wanted to make. And just really started going in on, on making these individual pieces, as well as making them work collectively as a, as a whole as a ,as a body of work. And I ended up making, I believe I ended up making two of the toys, the first the first semester of my third year, and then the following three, the third, or that second semester of the third year. On top of that, I was granted the, the commission. So I had to, I had to come up with the more refined concept drawings, I had to produce the maquette, and I had to meet with the head to meet with the university, but I also had to meet with the, the individual that commissioned a piece also. So that also happened in that last, that last year.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 38:11 From that, so, you had to be like you got the grant commission. So did you start making the sculpture your second semester like in 1999 then?

Trenton Baylor 38:24 I actually started making that the summer, I started making it the summer after I graduated

SOPHIA ABRAMS 38:33 So 2000 then?

Unknown Speaker 38:34 So I, so yes, between 1999 and 2000 when I made that piece. Unfortunately, I did complete the piece and I was paid, but the piece never was installed. It was never installed. It was, it was slated to be near the engineering building. And when I say that, the engineering building that you may have seen is not the engineering building that is, I was there, when I was there, are parts of the engineering building that are there currently are different than what it was when I was I was a student back then. So it was slated to be placed where I think there's currently housing and because that, it was never, it was never installed.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 39:36 Where, so what happened to it? Like what, what did you do with it then? Like what, what did they do with it?

Trenton Baylor 39:44 They dismantled it and sold it for a scrap.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 39:51 That's too bad. Um, I guess going back to your third or third year though, so at the same time, you're honing in, honing in on your thesis show and like creating work then. So can you kind of talk about I guess, you already kind of talked about it a little bit, but just like your thesis show, and like the name of it, and the reception of it and like, kind of just elaborate more in that show.

Trenton Baylor 40:22 So the the thesis show, what was the name, hmm? You would think I would remember that. I don't remember it. But it was, it was five toys, there was a, a pull toy. And when you pulled it around the gallery, there were parts that moved up and down and spun around and, and did other actions. There was a second piece that required an air compressor. So it was really loud in the gallery space. And it had these air operated buttons that allowed you to scoop up candy that was scattered on the floor of the gallery. And you could pick up the candy, move to other parts of the gallery, kind of like a little, a little tractor. There was another piece that you pushed around the gallery and it would tap on the top of itself. And being that it was made out of aluminum, it would ring, ring kind of like a little bell. And, and then there were some other kind of crank-like toys. And the whole point was everybody was in this space. And they were laughing and they were talking and they were playing with you know, with all the toys, the kids that were coming, were gathering the candy and of course eating the candy and throwing the wrappers on the floor. And, you know, it was a really, just a quite playful experience, it was more like an amusement park than it was a gallery experience. And that was exactly what I was looking for. It was really hoping that, you know, any and everybody who came into that space felt welcome, felt welcome in their blue jeans. And felt welcoming, you know, playing and, and making a mess, making lots of noise. And just having a great old time. That was exactly what I was looking for. My parents were there, of course, and, and so my, my uncles and aunts were there. And it was just another opportunity to have, you know, quite a few individuals who maybe have never been into a gallery space, come into a gallery space and to see, see art and to see it differently. And to be able to approach it from, "Hey, I know what that looks like, that looks kind of like a toy I had when I was, you know, back then" or "I know what that looks like that looks like this or that". So it transformed it and kind of helped them understand that you don't have to have to, you didn't have to have this very refined or specific vocabulary to talk about the work. I mean, you could talk about it from the standpoint of what you already know. And that's perfectly fine. So it was, it was a great experience, and great opportunity.

Sophia Abrams 43:21 Yeah, it sounds like you're really able to kind of understand your philosophy, you know, towards art or like, you know, making stuff and then really like, hone in on that for your MFA show. I guess from that. So before I jump to my last question, do you think that there's any other notable things or things or experiences that we didn't touch on about your graduate experience?

Trenton Baylor 43:55 Um, you know, there were, there were experiences outside of being a, a student per se, in Madison that, you know, just being an African American, and I can remember walking down, walking down the street, and you know, it was just me and a friend of mine, we're walking down the street, and we get up to a corner and you know, see these two young ladies rolling up their windows in their car, and you can hear the doors, the automatic, you know, locks on the door lock. And for them to laugh as if we were going to do anything to them. You know, we were just walking home from class. So it was just some of those, you know, of course, experience racism from a number of different vantage points throughout my, my lifetime. But one of the reasons that I did go to Madison was with the hopes that it was going to be a little bit more open, inclusive environment and it ended up just being just like any other space and place, you know, there's, there are wonderful people everywhere. And there are cruel and hateful people everywhere. And no matter where you go, you really shouldn't judge it from that, that senate point standpoint, but you have to, you know, just judge people individually and see people individually. And it was still a great place to study and to live and to grow and to experience and I wouldn't trade it for the world. But it does have its flaws, just like any, any other place.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 45:37 From that, I guess I had a question, too. So were there any other black students in your cohort?

Trenton Baylor 45:47 Yes, there was. There was really-- So trying to go through so Dieter was Native American. There was an African American gentleman, there was a, there's a young lady from Trinidad. So there was about a handful of individuals that were, you know, yeah, there's about a handful, five or six that were, you know, individuals of color in my cohort. Not that many. And it's not that, we didn't even really cross paths at that much, because, you know, one person could be doing painting, and, and be in a different building on campus. And, and then, of course, being in their own studio, another person might be doing printmaking, being in another building, yet another building. So we didn't cross paths that often, which was unfortunate. And, you know, it's just like anything else, you kind of fall into your cliques, if you're doing sculpture, you're going to, you know, more or less talk with those individuals who are also doing sculpture. So unfortunately, I didn't get the opportunity, or maybe I didn't take advantage of the opportunity to, you know, really kind of connect with others of color around me.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 47:33 And then I guess my final question for you is, so now you're a professor yourself. So how do you see your experience at Madison impacting you today?

Trenton Baylor 47:48 It was certainly formative. I mean, I've, of course, learned a lot of the technical and kind of conceptual approaches to making work. However, so, in undergraduate, I did, I did a degree in art, but I also did certification to teach art K through 12. I think my certification to teach was equal to my graduate work, and you know, me helping understand how to actually teach art, and how to teach others how to make things. So you know, what my certification to teach helped me to understand how to teach. My graduate work helped me, you know, what, meaning helping understood, go from the idea, the concept, and then transform that into form, and then transform that into expression via color, shape, form, material, so on and so forth. So the two went hand in hand with one another.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 49:00 Well, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you about your experience at UW as a graduate student. I really enjoyed hearing about your time at UW and like what you made out of it.

Trenton Baylor 49:15 Well, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. And thank you for the invite. I hope it was helpful.