Interview with Margaret Bender

Margaret Bender (#665) Transcript

BT: Just letting the tape run. This is Barry Teicher of the University of Wisconsin Archives Oral History Project. Today is March 4 in the year 2004. I'm with Martha Casey and we're at Margaret Bender's home and we're going to be talking to Dr. Bender about her background and her career at the University of Wisconsin. Could you start out by talking a little bit about your childhood and your early schooling, grade school, high school, and any teachers who influenced you?

MB: I grew up in a small town. I went to Mount Holyoke, which is a women's college in Massachusetts. And then I got a bachelor and a master's degree there. And from there I went to Yale.

BT: Could we go back a little further to when you were living at home with your parents? Where did you grow up?

MB: Easthampton, Massachusetts.

BT: Could you talk a little bit about your early grades and your early teachers 00:01:00in elementary school and high school? Were there any that you remember as being particularly influential to you?

MB: Well, there was one in particular in Latin, as a matter of fact. I took four years of Latin.

BT: Let's talk about him or her.

MB: It was an elderly woman as a matter of fact. I don't even remember her name anymore. As a matter of fact they would let us have a class of just three. Three people the last year. So I learned a lot of Latin and I enjoy it very much.

BT: What was it about her that you enjoyed as a teacher?

MB: She knew her subject.

BT: And were there any subjects, classes that you took in high school in the sciences, for example, like chemistry or botany or biology that you particularly remember?

MB: No. They didn't offer botany. I had chemistry. I never took physics in high school.

BT: What about your parents and any siblings that you may have had? Tell us about your parents and about their attitude toward education?

MB: Oh their attitude was that I could do go as far as I wanted and they would help me as far as they could. They themselves had very limited education and so they were anxious that their children could go as far as they wanted.

BT: That's great.

MB: I had a sister and a brother. But both much younger. My brother is still living. He was himself, a teacher.

Martha Casey (MC): What did your father do, Margaret?

MB: My father was a plumber.

BT: Okay. And what made you decide to go to Mount Holyoke?

MB: Well, first of all, it was quite close. I lived in a part of Massachusetts that had-- I don't know whether you know the part where there are many, many, many colleges. Smith, University of Massachusetts-Amherst, Mount Holyoke and 00:03:00Springfield College are all in a very, very small area. And Mount Holyoke seemed to me the most desirable.

BT: Did you visit it before?

MB: No.

BT: So you just went.

MB: Also, it had to be very close. I could not afford transportation.

BT: Okay. Did your parents contribute? Did they pay for your college education or contribute? Or did you get scholarships, do you recall?

MB: Well they contributed what they could. I also had scholarships and I borrowed money.

BT: Did you work in college?

MB: Yes, I did.

BT: What was your job?

MB: Oh, a variety of things the college had for its students.

BT: Yeah, so work in the dorms or the union or something like that?

MB: No, working in cleaning out the labs and this sort of thing.

BT: Oh, that's very nice. Did you have any particular preference for a course of study when you entered college? Were you thinking about science at that point?

MB: Yes I was.

BT: And that was because--?

MB: I liked it in high school.

BT: Okay. What about science teachers that you had at Mount Holyoke. Were there any classes or teachers that stand out particularly in your mind?

MB: Yes, the professor for organic chemistry stood out enormously.

BT: Why was that?

MB: She was very good. Dorothy Hahn. And she was the one who encouraged me to go on and got me the scholarship at Yale.

BT: Oh, so how long were you at Mount Holyoke, for four?

MB: Four years.

BT: Four years. And your major was? When did you declare chemistry, you remember?

MB: No, I don't.

BT: Okay. Did you have a minor?

MB: I don't think you had to have one. I don't remember as a matter of fact.

MC: Margaret, it must have been unusual to have a woman on the faculty of the chemistry department, although I know Mount Holyoke has always been somewhat known for that.

MB: They had many women.

MC: They had many women, even at that time?

MB: Oh, yes. They had mostly women.

MC: All right. Even then? Okay. That's interesting. When did you start college? About?

MB: '33. I graduated in '37. Got my master's in '39.

BT: What about going to college in the Depression, do you remember the Depression as an influence or impact at all?

MB: Believe me, let's put it this way. I was in the town, one of the 3 worst hit in the country.

BT: Oh boy.

MB: So I remember quite vividly.

BT: Yeah. Could you tell me any anecdotes or anything that you remember particularly about it? Or is it just the general impression that you remember?

MB: Well I can tell you when I was at Yale, for one year I ate oatmeal for breakfast and lunch entirely.

BT: Did you continue to eat oatmeal after you left Yale?

MB: Not very often, no. But that was very cheap. I was already in debt and didn't want to get any farther in debt.

BT: I'll bet that a lot of students made that kind of sacrifice.

MB: Well, yes. Well, what are you going to do? You don't want to go any farther in debt than you have to.

BT: Let's go back to Mount Holyoke for just a moment. When you graduated from Mount Holyoke, did you have any career ideas or plans at that point in time? Do you recall?

MB: I got a master's there first.

BT: Oh, at Mount Holyoke you got a master's?

MB: At Mount Holyoke.

BT: Oh, I didn't realize they gave--I didn't realize that they gave advanced degrees at Mount Holyoke.

MB: Yes, they did. They have master's.

BT: Okay. So did you study with Professor Hahn?

MB: Yes, I did. And then went to Yale. Well, as a matter of fact, I had the wonderful-- what I thought was a brilliant idea of branching out and going abroad. It was then, you see, 1939.

BT: Good time to go abroad.

MB: Yes, as a matter of fact, I got myself a job in Istanbul.

MC: You did, Margaret?

MB: Oh, yes. I had a job teaching in a women's college in Istanbul. And I was all signed, sealed, and delivered and the war broke out. I never got there.

BT: Oh, that's too bad.

MB: Much to my father's relief.

BT: Did you ever get to Istanbul at any point in your life?

MB: No, I never did. Never got there abroad.

BT: That's too bad. When you graduated from Mount Holyoke, how did you end up at Yale?

MB: Well, that had been the choice to begin with. Dorothy Hahn had connections at Yale and she got me a scholarships at Yale.

BT: Is Hahn spelled H-A-H-N?

MB: Yes it is.

BT: Okay. So you're at Yale and you're going-- oh, before we get to Yale. One other question. Did you have a master's thesis that you had to write, anything like that?

MB: Yes indeed. I wrote both a bachelor's and a master's thesis.

BT: Could you talk about those for a moment please?

MB: No because I can't remember it. That's a long time ago.

BT: I know that's a long time ago. Okay. Well, we'll put you back at Yale. Talk 00:08:00a little bit about your years at Yale. You were obviously there for a chemistry PhD.

MB: That's right.

BT: Again, are there any particular teachers and classes that stand out in your mind?

MB: Well I was a student of Werner Bergmann's. Organic chemistry again; I got my PhD there.

BT: And what was Professor Bergmann, what was his area of specialty? Do you know? Do you recall?

MB: No, I don't.

BT: Okay.

MC: Well organic or physical chemistry?

MB: Beg your pardon?

MC: Was he an organic chemist or a physical?

MB: Organic.

MC: Organic, yes. Okay.

BT: Was he what we call today a major professor or was he your mentor?

MB: Yes, he was a major professor.

BT: And how closely did you work with him?

MB: I shared a lab with him.

BT: Oh you did?

MB: Yes.

BT: What were you doing in the lab? What kind of work were you doing there?

MB: The regular organic lab and regular organic work.

BT: Did you do any research work for him or TA for him or anything like that?

MB: I didn't do any TAs, no. But I did do research work for him, yes.

BT: What kind of research work was it, do you recall?

MB: No I don't.

BT: Okay.

MC: Margaret, was Yale using teaching assistants in those days? Or you can't remember either?

MB: No, I can't. I'm sorry.

BT: Okay, yeah. That's a while ago. Were there any other teachers that you recall whom you worked under at Yale?

MB: Sturdevant.

BT: Sturdevant. And he was also a chemist, or she?

MB: It was he, a chemist. Yes. There were no women, I assure you, on the faculty at Yale at that time. Or any major university.

BT: Why not? Did they just not hire?

MB: That's right. My word. A woman at a men's university? My word.

BT: Well how about fellow graduate students. Were there any other women and graduates who were colleagues of yours in graduate school at Yale?

MB: I think there was one other.

BT: So it was mainly a man's world in the--.

MB: Oh yes.

BT: Yeah.

MC: About how many graduate students would there have been at Yale then or were there others in Bergmann's group, or you were his only student?

MB: No, there were a few. How many? I don't know. But there were several of us. It's quite a small university, you know?

MC: Oh yeah. I thought of going to Yale too, actually. So you said there were two women maybe there--

MB: I knew one other. There may have been others. There was one woman who worked as a post doc for one of the major professors. I've forgotten her name. Martha somebody. I don't remember the others. I met my husband there too.

BT: Oh, you did?

MB: Oh, yes.

BT: And he was a--

MB: Physical chemist.

BT: Physical chemist. Were there any times where chemists got together-- students and professors for parties or for seminars and socializing, anything like that, do you recall?

MB: Socializing I don't remember, no.

BT: Was there a pretty good atmosphere in the chemistry department?

MB: Yes.

BT: A lot of working together?

MB: That's right.

BT: And you wrote a dissertation there, obviously.

MB: Yes.

BT: Now you've had practice. You did your undergraduate thesis and your MA thesis. What was your PhD thesis on?

MB: Sorry. I'm sorry.

MC: Oh no, Margaret.

BT: So you did enjoy your time at Yale?

MB: Oh yes, very much so.

BT: And what years were you at Yale, approximately, do you recall?

MB: 1939 to '41.

BT: '39 to '41. So the war was underway. Where did you go after you graduated from Yale?

MB: Let's see. I taught one year at the Connecticut College for Women. I worked 00:12:00for one of the guys who had been at Yale and was in business for himself. I've forgotten his name now.

BT: Let's talk about the Connecticut College for Women for a while. That by the way, is a school that Judy Craig considered when she was applying for her undergraduate. She said Connecticut College. She went to Bryn Mawr eventually, but that was one of the three or four that she had considered. So what did you teach at Connecticut?

MB: Chemistry.

BT: Chemistry. Did you enjoy the teaching experience?

MB: Yes, I enjoyed teaching. Yes.

BT: And this was again, organic chemistry?

MB: Of course.

BT: Why did you stay for only a year?

MB: Because I had an offer to work in some research for somebody else.

BT: Oh, for somebody else. Now were you married at this point?

MB: No.

BT: You're still not married. What did you do for that-- for whom did you work 00:13:00and what were your tasks in that year following your--

MB: That's what I'm trying to remember. I'm trying to remember who the guy was. It was a chemist and I did do some research for him. And I honestly can't remember his name. I enjoyed it very much, I know that. We had published a couple of papers.

BT: Do you remember anything about what kind of research it was?

MB: No, I don't.

BT: Okay. What led you to leave after one year?

MB: Get married.

BT: Oh, well, there you go.

MB: There you go. Yeah.

BT: And that was in 1942.

MB: '41.

BT: '41.

MB: I married in '41.

BT: Okay. Where were you married?

MB: In Cleveland.

BT: Oh, in Cleveland. And that was--?

MB: Paul's home.

BT: Your husband's name was Paul?

MB: Yes, my husband's name is Paul. Yes.

BT: Is Paul. So where did you and Paul go to then?

MB: Paul came out here. Had a temporary job here, which became permanent.

BT: Now at the University of Wisconsin?

MB: We've been here ever since.

BT: Oh my goodness. So that was in 1943?

MB: That's right.

BT: Now let's talk about his temporary job because that's a very interesting time frame there, 1943. We are right in the middle of the Second World War So was he brought in because there was a teacher shortage and they were looking for people?

MB: Somebody who had been here had left, they taught temporary, but he never came back. And so Paul had the job.

BT: I've heard that story many times over the years that will happen during wartime. Somebody will leave and then they hire a temporary replacement and that person ends up staying, spending his career there. So you came along with your husband obviously, you were married. Where did you live when you first moved to Madison? Do you recall?

MB: Yes. Down near Breese Terrace near the stadium in an apartment down there.

BT: Did you ever go to the football games?

MB: I went once or twice. I'm not terribly interested in football.

BT: My wife and I lived a few blocks from the stadium once and--

MB: Oh, that area, yeah.

BT: You were certainly aware of football games because you could hear that noise 00:15:00level going up and down a few blocks away.

MB: And you must have had cars parked in your driveway, too.

BT: Yes we did. We could never get out of our-- I guess things don't change too much.

MC: Margaret, when did meet Paul? When you first went to Yale or on that second time? Doesn't matter, but I mean, did you know him a long time at Yale?

MB: I knew him the whole time I was at Yale. He was in one of my classes.

MC: He was in one of your classes?

BT: Wow.

MC: Okay.

BT: That's interesting. So your husband taught here?

MB: Yes he did.

BT: And was his job involved-- did it involve research at all, do you recall?

MB: Oh yes, he did a lot of research. Yes.

BT: What was his special area of specialization, do you recall?

MB: No, he did a lot of instrumental work. He's built up instruments that are here as Martha probably knows.

BT: Oh really?

MC: Yes. He was the head of-- the first head of the chemistry instrumentation laboratory, which included mass spec, NMR, and things. But he's a co-author of books on physical chemistry and I took classes from him too. He taught the theory of nuclear magnetic resonance. Yeah, that type of thing.

BT: Well the instrumentation lab was a pretty big deal, wasn't it?

MC: It's gotten bigger and bigger. Yes, it was a big deal and he organized it originally.

BT: I've heard very good things about that, about that lab. So when he came he was a temporary person and then he became--

MB: Permanent.

BT: --permanent. And so he was on tenure track when they put him on permanent?

MB: That's right.

BT: So you came along and you were living in Breese Terrace. How long before you joined the staff, faculty, at UW?

MB: I was never on the staff.

BT: How long before you became involved in the chemistry department? Let me put 00:17:00it that way.

MB: I was never involved in the chemistry department here.

MC: When did you first get a job doing scientific work at Wisconsin?

MB: Okay.

BT: About? I mean were you and Paul here one year, four years before you started to go back and work as a scientist?

MB: I was trying to remember. I worked with so many people. I worked at the Center for Climatic Research for a long while, you know?

MC: No, I don't know, actually Margaret. So this is interesting. I didn't realize that. Yeah.

MB: That was second. And I also taught for extension. Taught chemistry to nurses for extension. The exact dates of these things--

BT: Okay, well, that's not important. So you did a variety of different activities in the field of science here at the university.

MB: That's right.

BT: Could you talk for just a minute about the Center for-- what was it? The Center for--

MB: For Climatic Research.

BT: Climatic Research. Could you talk a little bit about what you did there and who you worked with, if you can recall that?

MB: No. I did a lot of work and exactly what I did, I can't remember. I published quite a bit from there.

MC: Margaret, when you changed jobs and you taught the nurses and you were in this center was-- I don't know how to put it. Was it your choice to change or were these jobs this always very temporary?

MB: I don't understand your question. You mean did they just give it to me as a one-year job?

BT: Yes. Or you can't remember that either?

MB: No, the Center for Climatic Research was not a temporary job. That was a 00:19:00permanent job.

BT: Okay. And you were also first director of the UW Radiocarbon Lab.

MB: Yeah, that's right.

BT: That was a little bit later on in your career. I think you started in the early 60s?

MB: That's right. That was in the Center for Climatic Research.

BT: Oh, that is.

MB: That is.

BT: Oh, okay. That's a different name. I didn't realize.

MB: It's the same thing. Yes.

BT: Was it originally called the Center for Climatic Research and then it was changed?

MB: I didn't know they had different names.

BT: Okay, well that was very interesting because you were the director for about 18 years, I think. 1963 to '81.

MB: That's right.

BT: Do you remember anything about your years as director about the lab itself?

MB: Just remember that I enjoyed doing a lot of work there. That was all.

BT: Is that where you did the radiocarbon dating work?

MB: That's right.

BT: I'm an anthropology major from college, so radiocarbon dating was a big deal in anthropology because you could learn about people's past through looking. Did 00:20:00you do anything about studying, like primitive peoples? Didn't you do something with diets, studying primitive people's diets through-- was is it called, RC14 or something like that?

MB: No, that I did not do. Did you bring me any dates to be done?

BT: Any what?

MB: Did you bring me any samples?

BT: No. No, sorry. Can't help you there.

MC: I think she was more the person that knew how to measure the carbon 13 to carbon 14 ratio. And that may have helped the anthropologists determine the diet.

BT: Yeah, I heard something-- and I'm talking to someone, they said that some of the work there was in radiocarbon dating.

MB: That's right. That was my field.

BT: That was your field. So that was the area that you spent your time with. Again, do you recall any of your colleagues in that field, in that area?

MB: Mean here?

BT: Yeah here, while you were here as lab director for those 18 years or so.

MB: No, I don't.

BT: Okay. Where was your office located?

MB: Oh dear.

BT: Well I'm just interested.

MB: Oh yes. It was over in the meteorology building in the basement.

BT: Oh, and you had a nice laboratory space set up there?

MB: Oh, yes I did. Yes.

BT: Do you remember anything-- this is getting kind of probably, a little too picky. But do you remember anything about how your lab was funded, anything like that?

MB: I think they charged for some of the things. They didn't concern me with that at all. Remember, this is over 20 years ago.

BT: Yeah, right. I understand that. I'm just trying to figure out what we can find there. Hold on. You said that you had several publications that you did in this area?

MB: Yes.

BT: Do you remember anything about any of them in particular? Any particular area that they might have dealt with? Was is the radiocarbon dating?

MB: That's right.

BT: Okay. And it was work that you enjoyed?

MB: Oh, yes, very much so. I think if Martha wants to look, there's a volume in 00:22:00there of the publications of the radiocarbon dating.

MC: Yeah, I wanted to know if you-- I was going to ask you if you knew-- How many papers on radiocarbon did you have? I mean 10, 20, 50?

MB: It wouldn't be 50. No. But might have been 20. I don't know.

MC: Yeah.

MB: I can't remember that one.

BT: Did you stay in the basement of the meteorology building the whole time you were in the lab?

MB: Yes.

BT: Was the space adequate? Did you have enough room to work?

MB: Oh yes, plenty of room. Yes.

BT: And did you work closely with any departments or were you kind of an independent organization?

MB: Kind of independent. Yes.

BT: Okay. What about other women scientists on campus. Did you know any at that time through those years that you recall?

MB: No.

BT: No. Were there many or is it just that you can't recall?

MB: I couldn't recall.

MC: You knew Betty Hirschfelder.

MB: Oh yes.

BT: Talk a little bit about-- I interviewed Betty Hirschfelder probably seven or eight years ago. Very wonderful person. Could you talk a little bit about her?

MB: Oh sure. We knew her very well. We took her out to lunch once a week as a matter of fact for many years.

MC: Did you ever talk about science stuff with her?

MB: No. She had been a mathematician and she didn't know anything about chemistry at all.

BT: Had you ever met her husband, Joseph Hirschfelder?

MB: We knew Joe long before we knew Betty.

BT: Oh really? How did you come to meet Joe and how did you--

MB: Well Joe was the reason Paul had the job here.

BT: Oh, Tell me about that.

MB: Well you see Paul's major professor at Yale was a guy called Akerlof.

BT: Oh yes, I've heard of him.

MB: Okay, well Akerlof is a brother-in-law of Joe Hirschfelder. And he recommended Paul to Joe.

BT: As the temporary replacement?

MB: That's right.

BT: Oh, isn't that interesting.

MB: And that's how Paul came out here and stayed.

BT: And that's how you got to meet Joe Hirschfelder?

MB: That's right.

BT: And did he then marry Elizabeth later on? Or did you just not know her early on?

MB: He may have married her sometime after that. Because I remember their wedding. Yes.

BT: Joe had quite a reputation here on campus. His research. He was really a very powerful person.

MB: Oh yes.

BT: What kind of a person was he?

MB: Oh, a very nice person. He wasn't much to lecture, but when you talked to him individually he was great. He could explain things very well. But he was not a good lecturer.

BT: He wasn't a good lecturer. And did Elizabeth work much at the university, do you recall?

MB: Yeah, she had been. She was a mathematician, you know?

BT: Oh yeah, that's right.

MB: And she had been on the mathematics I believe.

BT: Okay. When you came here in your role as a scientist, did you ever do any teaching at the UW?

MB: Oh no.

BT: Well that's too bad.

MC: You said you did in Extension, Margaret.

MB: Yes, but I did through Extension. Remember, the time that I came here, there 00:25:00were no women teaching in the University. That was a no-no.

BT: That was a no-no. It was like at Yale? It was sort of men's club, is that--

MB: That's right.

BT: When did that start to change, do you recall?

MB: No.

BT: So you were kind of, in a sense, one of the first people in the science field there who was working for the university as a woman. Is that an accurate statement or not?

MB: I don't think so. Betty Hirschfelder.

BT: Oh, Betty Hirschfelder. So there a few of you.

MB: That's right.

BT: But not a terribly great number.

MB: That's right.

BT: Okay.

MC: Margaret, when you came here with Paul from Yale, did you assume that you would get a job in science or you just didn't know one way or the other?

MB: I just hoped. That was all.

MC: You hoped you would?

MB: That's right.

MC: Yeah.

BT: And did you have to pursue it or did they pursue you, do you recall?

MB: They pursued me.

BT: Who pursued you, do you remember?

MB: No, I don't.

BT: Okay And so for a while you had these temporary positions and then you got 00:26:00that permanent position, more or less permanent, in the what is it called?

MB: Meteorology. UW Radiocarbon Lab.

BT: That's right. And that lab had been going before you came?

MB: No.

BT: Oh, that's right. You were the first director. I'm sorry.

MB: It's now closed as a matter of fact.

BT: It did. Did it close after?

MB: They had a couple people after me and then it closed.

BT: Do you have any idea why it closed? Was it just something whose time had passed? Or funding became scarce?

MB: I would hesitate to say.

BT: Okay.

MC: I think it was a funding issue.

BT: Yeah. Well that's often the time with those independent labs. They have a rough life. Do you remember anything about any of the people who were the chancellors or presidents, I guess they were called at the time of the university-- Fred Harvey Harrington or any of those people? Did you ever have any cause to--

MB: No.

BT: And E.B. Fred was already gone, wasn't he?

MB: No, he was still here.

BT: He was still here, but he wasn't president anymore. I think he quit that in '58, didn't he?

MB: That would be all right. He was still here.

BT: He was still here. Did you ever talk to E.B. Fred?

MB: No.

BT: Okay.

MB: I mean this is a big university.

BT: Yes, it's a very big university. I've only talked to E.B. once in my life. He was quite a guy. What led you to decide to retire from the university?

MB: Paul. I was ready to continue indefinitely, but Paul had already retired. He retired at 61 or 62. And I was still going-- I turned 65 in May and the end of October he said he just couldn't stand being alone anymore. I had to quit.

BT: So you quit reluctantly?

MB: That's right.

MB: I'd had been happy to continue.

BT: So what was it that you enjoyed about your work?

MB: I just liked doing science, that's all.

BT: Okay, that's a perfectly good answer. Talking about your husband for a few moments. Did he enjoy his career at the university?

MB: I think so. Yes.

BT: And he was in the chemistry department. Did you get to know any of the other chemists?

MB: Oh yes.

BT: Could you talk about any of them that you might recall? Was Herb Shain there at the time?

MB: Yes, we knew the Shains. Herb and Millie, yes.

BT: Any comments about them?

MB: No, they're very nice people. That's all.

BT: That's a pretty good synopsis right there.

BT: What about yourself? Do you have any colleagues that you particularly recall with fondness from your years at the University?

MB: No, not in particular.

BT: And so could you summarize your career at the University for me? How did you feel about it? Did you enjoy it?

MB: I enjoyed it very much. And I would have continued indefinitely it I had been able to.

BT: That's a pretty strong phrase I think.

MC: Margaret, you were the first director, but you didn't have to worry about where funding for the center was coming from? You were not the person that had to go out and fight--

MB: No.

MC: Okay. Who took care of that kind of thing? You don't remember?

MB: They never discussed it with me.

MC: They didn't discuss it with you. Okay. You were the scientific person.

MB: I think people paid for some of it. One of the things I am proudest of is that sometimes I would get a sample and then somebody would say, well now I've sent this to a Japanese lab and I got this answer. And I sent it to another lab and I got this answer. Will you tell me what the correct answer is. So I was regarded as being the last answer, you see? As being the correct answer.

BT: I can believe it.

BT: So you were the expert?

MB: I was the expert.

BT: Yeah, I could see why you didn't want to leave that job. That's pretty nice. 00:30:00After you retired, did you maintain any contact with either the lab you worked with or the University? Do you recall?

MB: Well, yes. I was in contact in the laboratory for a short time because the guy who had been working with me was doing the work.

BT: So you helped him, you assisted him?

MB: I gave him advice whenever necessary.

BT: Do you recall who that gentleman was?

MB: Oh yes. Ray Stevenson.

BT: Oh, could you tell me a little bit about Ray?

MB: Well he's an interesting person. Actually, he only had a high school education. So I was surprised he took over for me. He couldn't write the papers, but somebody else helped him write the reports and so on.

BT: What skills did he have?

MB: He was very good at mechanical things, you see. And I had him taught him how to run the radiocarbon thing and how to do everything there.

BT: So how long did he remain at the lab? Do you have any idea?

MB: About three years. Then he retired.

BT: Oh, then he retired. Who took over for him, do you recall?

MB: It was some woman I did not know.

BT: By then she had-- she was someone new. What about your husband. Did he maintain contact with the chemistry department?

MB: I think so.

BT: Some, yes, certainly. Margaret, was Isabelle--