Interview with S. Lee Burns

Burns, S. Lee #365 Transcript

BT: 1983. I'm here with Steve [Orada?]. We are interviewing Mr. Lee Burns, former director of university housing, on his career in housing and as director of housing.

SLB: I went out Glacier Park in the fall of 1928. And '29, I spent those two summers out at Glacier Park. And I started out as a busboy, and then went into the swimming pool and fishing guide, my brother and I. Then I'd sub once in a while up in the dining room. And Don Halverson and [Dr. Antonius?] were visiting there. And they came down and wanted to go on the fishing trip. And I took them 00:01:00and helped up, part up a mountain there, just to show them around a little bit more. And so Don asked me where I was going to school, and I said well, I didn't know, but my friend and I had been talking about Wisconsin. Boy oh boy, his ears went up. And he said, "Well, you come down, I'll try to get you a job."

So I went to, I spent one year in San Francisco in between there, and then I came back here. And I was anxious to get going on the university, and came down. And first weekend was a big banquet in Great Hall. And gee whiz, they had all older women doing the serving. And I thought that was rather strange. So I asked 00:02:00Don why we couldn't have university students. He thought it was a wonderful idea, and talked with Porter Butts, so he changed over all of the catering at the Union to students. And I worked there for one year, and then started school. And I took one year in law school, then I shifted to the commerce school. And I graduated in '32 or '33, 1933, I think it was. And at the Union, I had charge of 00:03:00the catering students and all the parties there and likewise. I moved in so I could be on the grounds at night. And I took my accounting and that, and they offered me a full time job, which I was very happy about. I worked in the accounting office, plus the--

BT: Accounting office for the university?

SLB: For the Union and residence hall. Actually, Mr. Halverson was to direct the residence halls. And then he also worked with Mr. Butts. And he was his steward and took care of the business matters and the food service. And he was a great guy. I think that the residence halls attracted me very much because of their 00:04:00house fellow program. It's really the heart of this residence halls whole program.

BT: Tell us what the house fellow program was like that made it attractive to you.

SLB: Well, first of all, instead of having large dormitories, they had them split up in fairly small units, in Tripp and Adams.

BT: Now we're talking about 1930, the early 1930s here?

SLB: Yes. Yes. The halls were filled, and the business office worked out of the Union. And it was sometime later when they shifted over and separated. And I went with the residence halls.

And I enjoyed it. We had our, first of all, we had our accounting and everything 00:05:00at the Union building. And then gradually got started over in the halls themselves.

BT: Now why was that split? Why did that split occur? That shift, I should say.

SLB: Well they both were, we were both building the new wing in the Union, the theater, which was one big job. And then we were building the Kronshage units, and Elizabeth Waters Hall. Elizabeth Waters Hall was the one that I first started working on. And Don gave me a lot of opportunities as far as me working on the plans and purchasing of the furniture and equipment and all of that. And I worked with the, our interior decorator, and the purchasing department.

BT: You were an accountant at this time when you were doing this?

SLB: I was called an assistant steward. An assistant to the director.

SLB: And let's see. I went to the university and I enrolled there in 1930 as a sophomore in the commerce school. And as I said, in accounting, business administration. Also took four or five classes in law school before I decided business administration was what I was interested in. I was always interested in training and having people know their jobs and what not. For football banquet or anything like that, we would have it all written out just exactly what they were supposed to do. And the waiter instructions for people, and it was sort of fun 00:07:00and I think we were doing some pioneering in some of the areas there. And Mr. Halverson was very, very good to give me a lot of responsibility.

And I graduated in 1934, so we're celebrating our fiftieth anniversary next fall. And I've been working on a few [--on a-- ?] committee, because I love it here. But last night was terrible, coming up Langdon Street. [laughs] Administration, boy oh boy, it was something.

BT: You mentioned that you were involved in some pioneering efforts. What were 00:08:00some of the pioneering efforts as you perceive them?

SLB: Well, I felt strongly that we ought to have students doing the waiting at the Union, so we did. All of our catering, later the grill, cafeteria. About 90 percent of the people were student workers.

BT: Still today, too?

SLB: And they still are today. We did a better job, I think, than the older women as far as the serving was concerned. Quicker, faster. And the kids got thirty cents an hour, plus a meal. And then it went to thirty-five cents an hour.

SO: Inflation.

BT: Up, up and away.

SLB: Up, up it went. In 1937 I was promoted to assistant director, residence halls. They were expanding fast, and we needed to spend all of our time there. 00:09:00And I had been in the accounting cashier's office at the Union as assistant steward with special assignments in the food department. So then in 1937, I was transferred and became assistant director, residence halls.

BT: Before we get into the assistant director years, could I go back over and ask a few questions?

SLB: Sure.

BT: We're going to go back to when Mr. Halverson first met you in Glacier Park. Now you said he was with a Dr. Antonius?

SLB: Antonius.

BT: Now who is he?

SLB: Well, there were two, there were a pair of twins, Leslie and Lester Antonius. Leslie Antonius is still practicing dentistry. Lester Antonius is in the home out here with multiple sclerosis and completely a vegetable, practically.

So I have been friendly, of course, with him for many, many years. With Leslie. Right up here on the, and Johnny Wallace, who used to be--

BT: Boxer.

SLB: Boxing coach. And well, as a student, we had some good times, but we worked like hell.

BT: How were they, were they just friends of Mr. Halverson's?

SLB: Yes.

BT: And they were not associated with the university in any official capacity.

SLB: No. No. Lester was, the one that was ill, was at the Union.

BT: Oh, he was.

SLB: Yes.

BT: When he approached you, or Mr. Halverson approached you, Mr. Halverson, as I'm sure you know, hired a lot of people. He'd go around and he'd see people he liked. What was his pitch with you? Did he--

SLB: Well, he liked the way I was waiting on table at the Union. And then he, 00:11:00Dr. Antonius wanted to go climb a mountain. Well, we went up, about a third of the way up, and that was enough for him. [laughs] But I took him fishing. Then he said, "Well, if you come down to Wisconsin, maybe we can find you a job." So I did come down here. And I, as I say, worked at the Union, in the catering department.

BT: So he found you a job right away, then.

SLB: Yes. Yes. At the catering department. Actually, the captain, Dr. Hugo Baum, preceded me as a head waiter there at the Union. He was in the medical school, so when he graduated, I took over. And I later on became, after I graduated, 00:12:00assistant steward in charge of the accounting office. The Union and residence halls were together as far as the business arrangements were concerned. Porter Butts was the social director, and Don Halverson was the financial man and the business manager. And I worked under Halverson.

SLB: And he, the thing that interested me most about the halls were the house fellow system, how it worked. It really was--

BT: That's where I want to go next. Now you said, and Mr. Halverson has told us that the system was small and personal. How was the house fellow hired, first of all?

SLB: By a committee, a faculty committee. And later, we had a screening 00:13:00committee where the present house fellows would interview them and give their impression of the people. And then the faculty committee, which consisted of people like Professor Dr. Bradley, and Harold Bradley, and Professor [Kowalki?], and a really interesting people. Wonderful people. And what was her name, Meyers. And we had one with the women college fellows, too.

But the house fellows had their own committee for the screening of house fellow candidates. And so we got the feeling that this person would be, looks like a natural, and so on.

BT: So it wasn't a set of specific criteria. It was more or less general impressions.

SLB: General impressions.

BT: Character.

SLB: And reasonably good grades. And whether they were athletes or not, we would take them. Because sometimes they'd be missing somewhat with their practices. But even so, we had wonderful young people who were close to the students. And in each house, and there are about thirty-five to fifty people in each house, they set up their own government, and they set up their own store, and they put in a store in the basement of Gilman House. And they were very active group. And they were older, sometimes, but sometimes young men and women who were leaders. 00:15:00And they really would mold their house together. And then they'd have their own governments.

BT: You said there were women house fellows as well?

SLB: Yes.

BT: And these would be for the girls' dorms.

SLB: Yes.

BT: And the same criteria would be--

SLB: The same thing, yes. Juniors or seniors.

SO: But there was a special committee that elected women, of course, to the--

SLB: Yes. Yes.

BT: Two different committees.

SLB: That's right. There was a women's house fellows committee of the house fellows who screened them. And then they would send them on to the residence halls committee. And that was professors and some of the head residents in the halls.

BT: How much were the dean of students involved in this whole process?

SLB: Very much. Not in a direct manner. But always, if we were going to hire a 00:16:00head resident, what they'd call now, some of them, house mothers, it would always go through the dean's office so that she'd approve of them. And she was on the faculty committee, as was Dean Goodnight on the men's hall faculty committee. And so we worked closely with the deans in the broader sense. But then as far as the operation of the halls, they didn't have anything to do with them. But it was much more Don Halverson who really set the standards on the food. And it was, he had the imagination and the leadership qualities that were tremendous.

BT: Now you said, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds as if, like each different residence hall more or less assumed its own personality based on the house fellows and on whoever was in it.

SLB: And the students.

BT: Now if the students decided let's get a store, or let's have an all campus party, or something like that, how would they go about, what was the step by step process of getting permission?

SLB: They would come to the director, assistant director.

BT: Not the house fellow.

SLB: No. No. Usually. There would be house fellows on their committees, and find out whether or not there would be space, whether or not they could do it. And from then on, like the men's halls, store was a very, very active unit. But it was run by students. But they would hire student managers. And we tried to let 00:18:00them do as much as we possibly could. And this was a philosophy of Don, and as periods filter down through myself and Newell and Smith. And I think the house fellow groups were just terrific. And we'd go with them on picnics and, the start of, we'd have our training sessions at the start of the year.

BT: Oh, you would have training sessions for the house fellows.

SLB: For the house fellows.

BT: Conducted by you and Ed Halverson--

SLB: And some of the head residents. And the dean of men and the dean of women would always be--

BT: What would you tell them at these?

SLB: Mostly that they could-- students, not set themselves off. And once they 00:19:00were in a house, they should be interested in that particular house and that particular group. And we expected a kid that got in trouble would first go to his house fellow. And then if it looked serious or they needed help, why then we had a head resident and assistant, Ernie Damon, who had the men's halls, house fellows. And they would meet weekly, discuss different things. But we tried to leave it with the students and the house fellows. Of course we always had a staff member available for them whatever they wanted, whether they wanted any 00:20:00new project or to get radio station set up, why we helped them through the WHA staff to start that. And they had a good radio station. Tremendous. A lot of students went from such activities into the same sort of activities when they got out.

BT: Any great failures on the students' parts? You know, where they started something and--

SLB: Well, I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure there were. A kind of--

BT: I just seem to remember something Mr. Halverson said about sometimes they learn through their failures more than they learn through their successes.

SLB: I think that's true. I think that's true. They have real big ideas, you know. And we try to tone them down a little bit, you know. And sometimes they'd be in the right, and sometimes they'd be in the wrong. But we had a good 00:21:00relationship with our house fellows, I think, with our students. Of course there would be some cases that we'd go to the dean's office and Scott Goodnight and Louise [Troxel?] were always very, very helpful, as were their successors. And they were on the faculty committee. We had like Professor [Kowalki?], Harold Bradley, on the men's faculty committee.

BT: Now which committee is this?

SLB: This is a men's faculty committee for residence halls.

BT: For residence halls.

SLB: And then there was the dean of women also had, outstanding women professors were on the women's halls faculty committee. And in the women's halls, we had a head resident who was a graduate woman, little bit more mature, who headed up 00:22:00the house fellow in each group. Barnard had a head resident, Chadbourne had a head resident. So they likewise were in somewhat on the selection, screening of the house fellows, so we'd get good people who were liked by the rest of the girls, and who were competent. They had to have fairly good grades, too.

BT: Let's say that your committee selected me, a graduate student in political science, to be a house fellow for a year, and I went through the training program that you talked about. Okay, it's registration week now. What might my duties for the week look like?

SLB: It would be to be in your house as much of the time as you could to welcome the new students, greet their parents, show them around, see if there were any 00:23:00problems, advise them where to go, where registration was. Probably that was too late by then. But there were always things, questions that they had. But we felt that the house fellows, and the head residents of the women's halls, were there to welcome the parents, talk with them. And any problems that come up, it started with the house fellow, generally, reporting it to the faculty committee. And the faculty committee would discuss it with the deans. And nine times out of ten, they could settle it, work it out. We didn't do advising which courses to take. But I'm sure which professors they liked and what not.

BT: [words unclear--all talking simultaneously]

SLB: And we'd have faculty people in as much as we could. And the groups, the 00:24:00houses, would invite people. And there were some very, very favorite people, the faculty members, that they were after.

BT: I have that question down in just a minute. But before we get to that, professors, I want to ask one more question on the house fellow. Okay, now I've been a house fellow for a little while, I've greeted the parents and everything. The semester's rolling along quite well. Let's just pick a typical Wednesday in the middle of the semester. What would my responsibilities be as a house fellow from the time I got up until the time I went to bed?

SLB: Oh, besides your class and class work, we wanted our house fellows to stay around the house as much as they could. That was no hard rule or no set hours or anything like that. But we wanted them available. And they would likewise work with the student groups, planning their parties, planning open house, things 00:25:00like that. And we wanted our house fellows to spend as much time as they could in the house in their off hours. There was no set time that they had to be there. But evenings we liked to have them around quite a bit, unless there were big parties. Because there were always questions, or visitors coming, or a couple of students get tangled up together. And if it was serious, why they would be referred to the dean of men or dean of women's office and keep them informed. They met weekly in a dinner meeting and discussed any large problems, like one house shooting firecrackers off or having a water fight once in a 00:26:00while. Especially in the quadrangles in Tripp and Adams, that was a beautiful spot to drop a bag of water on somebody. But we wanted our fellows to be around the house as much as they can.

BT: What about during mealtime? Lunch and dinner?

SLB: At first we had waiter service. But that was only for a few years. And then we went to cafeteria service, because the students liked it much better, and it was much more flexible. And they could come most anytime, they could select their food.

BT: When did that switch occur? Just a general idea?

SLB: Well, I would say about in the, oh, '35, '36.

BT: For about ten years they had--

SLB: Yeah, waiter service.

BT: Was it students who wanted to switch? Or was it just the number of students that the demand--

SLB: It was when we started building. We had Elizabeth Waters Hall, which was a big new building. And there we started with cafeteria service. And we started at Carson Gulley Hall in the early '30s, I would say, '35, '36, we went to cafeteria service rather than sit down service. Barnard and Chadbourne were the last that went over to the cafeteria service. Those girls seemed to like the sit down service for a while, but then they liked actually the cafeteria service much better. We could have more choices for them. And they didn't mind carrying 00:28:00their trays.

BT: So it was pretty much student demand that dictated--

SLB: I think so. And it was an easier operation than-- now at the Union building, of course, for all catering, and likewise for any banquets, we always served, table service. And for a while Sunday night meal, Sunday noon meals, we had table service in the women's halls. But the fellows liked the cafeteria service. And we wanted them dressed fairly well. Generally coats and ties or, if not, respectable, and if, we never turned them away from a meal, but their house fellow would hear it, and he'd talk to him.

BT: Wasn't exactly a no shirt, no shoes, no service thing, but there was a --

SLB: No. There was a leisurely dress code, but there were no coats, ties, or any 00:29:00of that sort of thing.

BT: While we're on that topic, because I just may forget to come back to it later, when did that discontinue?

SLB: I think in about '35 or so we started becoming more, although Elizabeth Waters Hall--I'm poor on names, I've got to get some of these dates here--Elizabeth Waters Hall opened in 1940. And we had waitress service there for about two or three years. Then we went to cafeteria service at the girls' request. Especially during the week, it was much easier that way for the noon 00:30:00meal. And sometimes Sunday noon, we would serve it. But generally speaking, we went to cafeteria service except for parties, banquets, things like that.

BT: One other thing that Mr. Halverson, I think, mentioned, I'm just trying to recall now. Talked about the house fellows at mealtime would sometimes lead discussions, be discussion leaders. Was this a common practice?

SLB: In the earlier days it was, especially. And the houses would have their own tables and the house fellows would sit at the head of the table. But it became more informal in the '40s, anyhow.

BT: So that would have continued up through the '30s.

SLB: Most of them, I would guess, yeah. And I think the key to success was having the halls broken down into small units. And there was tremendous lot of 00:31:00rivalry in halls, athletics and all the rest of the things. And they'd have their own parties, and go together with one of the girl houses, and have a party. And so we had, well, I don't know if you want dates.

BT: Yes, I do.

SLB: Chadbourne Hall was by far our oldest hall. That was torn down and rebuilt. But it was called Ladies' Hall. 1871, I think it was built. And Barnard Hall, in 1970. You can have this, if you want it.

BT: Why don't you just give us that, then, and we can have that information.

SLB: So we went through a tremendous lot of work when we started building new 00:32:00halls. And we had, I'm getting off the subject, I suppose I better get back to the students again. We had really excellent student workers, and the relationship between the students and Mr. Halverson and myself, later, when I took over, I was Lee and he was Don. And he just loved that sort of thing. And it was better. And we ate with the house fellows a lot. And if they had their meetings, and tried to eat in a different dining room every day, just to get to know the kids. And I think the feeling was good.

BT: It's almost like it wasn't a "we" and "they" type situation. It was an "us" type situation.

SLB: Yeah.

BT: So it was more or less a calculated, not calculated--that sounds too 00:33:00cold--but a part of, you considered it part of your job to eat in the different halls and get to know people.

SLB: Oh, yes. Yes.

BT: You weren't just administrators who were sitting in--

SLB: When we were ordering furniture, changing furniture, anything like that, we'd ask for any house committee to meet with us and discuss what they thought we should have. And we'd show them the samples of various things and get their feelings on it. And we were building so much in the, well, from '38 on when Kronshage units were open. And that was a big job, but it worked out real well. And then Elizabeth Waters Hall in 1940 opened. And there you, we were opening a hall for about 535 girls, all at one time. And that was a rough one. But again, 00:34:00when we had furniture, we got samples of furniture, I worked mostly on the furnishings end, and kitchen layouts, kitchen layouts with Don, the furniture. We had, Leon [Pesho?] was our consultant. But we'd get these samples up and have a committee of the girls, their own committee come and give their comments on it. We tried to get as much input from students as we possibly could in the hall. And we hoped that our staff members were very friendly with all of them. And we didn't have a lot of stuffed shirts around. So that they could come and 00:35:00sit down. And the house fellows were really the key to it, because they were close. And we met with them once every week or once every two weeks at a meal and discussed any problems that they had. And they didn't like this or they didn't like that, or if we were changing the telephone system, which we did. We had telephones in the halls at first. And finally we got a telephone in each room. And we'd always discuss it with the student leaders, the presidents of the houses, or if they had a committee. So I think half the fun of the job was working with the students directly, or indirectly through the house fellows and the head residents.

SLB: And the food, had some fault with the food, why, they had a commons 00:36:00committee, and we met with the commons committee from each unit. What they liked, what they'd like changed, anything like that. And we had two tremendous chefs, at least, in Carson Gulley. And Mrs. Lydia Jones.

BT: Now Mrs. Jones, wasn't she found out at Glacier?

SLB: Yeah, yeah.

BT: Didn't Don Halverson find her the same year he found you?

SLB: Yes. He worked me to get her to come down here. [laughs]

BT: Oh, he worked you to get her down here?

SLB: Yeah, sure.

BT: Out at Glacier?

SLB: No, after I got here. He said, "Boy, oh, boy, if we could get that chef." We had a chef at the Union we weren't too happy with. And we got her down.

BT: So she came several years after he had first met her.

SLB: Yeah. And they, like Carson Gulley, was a black. And he couldn't find the housing. We finally built an apartment for him on the ground or basement floor in Tripp Hall. And boy, he was almost worshiped by the students. When the football team went to the Rose Bowl, he drove four or five kids out to the Rose Bowl. He was always going fishing with them and things like that. Well we all wanted our staff to associate as much as they could with the students, and get to know them, and they'd get to know us. And I think this was Don's, he enjoyed this. And we learned a lot from them. And in furnishing a student room, we'd 00:38:00always have a committee to work with us and we'd show them what we had planned, and try it out and everything. And I think this helped the students.

SLB: And they had a very, very strong student organization in each hall. And the men's halls association, especially they had a good store in the basement of Mack house for knicks and knacks and paper and what not, and they made good money on that. And anything that they felt they would like, a better place to build things and try to fix them up with a room. And the house fellows, as I 00:39:00say, were really the key in between. And the dean's offices were wonderful with us. Sure, we had our arguments. But they were really high class. And they were on our committees, and they were invited to all the parties the kids gave. So I think the majority of the students liked the halls very much.

And in their junior and senior years, there would be a certain number that would go to the fraternities and sororities. And that was all okay. There was rivalry between houses, you know, in the touch football and softball and all the way 00:40:00through. But I think Don's philosophy of getting the students in on as much as possible carried through. It certainly did with me, and I know it did with Newell, and I'm sure it will continue on. Because they need a lot of freedom, but they also need a little direction at times. Because they came up with some hare brained ideas. Oh, we'd have our water fights occasionally. But the house fellows would get out there and they'd pick out the ringleaders. And they'd straighten it out and mop it up and off they'd go again.

BT: Let's talk for a minute about philosophy. Because Mr. Halverson, as you can well imagine, really hit that topic quite heavily, because he was in on those 00:41:00formative years--

SLB: Right.

BT: The committee with Slichter and Bradley and [Kowalki?] --

SLB: [Kowalki?], yeah.

BT: All those people, based on Van Hise's speech in 1904.

SLB: Yes.

BT: 1905, something like that. When did you start learning about the philosophy of housing here at UW?

SLB: Well, I was at the Union and don Halverson likewise was at the Union. When they built the Union, the regents had appointed Porter Butts as the director at the Union. But they wanted somebody to head up the food service and the mechanics of the operation. Porter was tremendous as far as the programming and the, all of the different student committees and what not. But they asked to 00:42:00head up the business end of it and the food end of it. So I was, after I graduated, was offered the assistant steward job. And I had charge of the accounting office which at the Union was taking care of both the residence halls and the Union. And they had some personality problems in there. And we had to clear it out and start it over again. Your question, though?

BT: My question was, when did you learn about the philosophy of housing?

SLB: Oh, through Don. Through Don. And I went to a lot of meetings, and I read through the minutes of--

BT: Was it talked about a lot?

SLB: Yes. It wasn't talked about so much as it was shown. Practiced. And I mean, 00:43:00at the start of the year, we met with our house fellows for a whole week, and just discussed various phases of their simple duty. But most importantly, getting a house together and helping, listening, and when there was a problem with any student that they couldn't handle, they would go to their head resident, in the girls' hall, or the head fellow, to the head fellow to the director or assistant director. Ernie Damon was an excellent man on our staff.

And then along, of course, came the war. And that was a rough, rough time, 00:44:00because we took in, oh, I had been promoted then to the assistant director of residence halls. And the arm, the navy, especially--

BT: We're getting ahead of ourselves. Because I have a whole set of questions on your military thing. Go ahead, Steve.

SO: I'd like to, you mentioned before that when you wanted to look at, read the minutes of some meetings, certain meetings you looked at.

SLB: Yeah.

SO: [Do you know of any?] specifically--

SLB: No, I don't think I have it. I suppose they'd be in the files, in the residence halls. But I think more than anything else, when you go up in it and 00:45:00you live in it, why, you understand what they want. And Don had his regular staff meetings, and we'd all get together and discuss our problems and what not. And I was not as close to the student end of it as I was in the administrative, the accounting, the planning, and then of course the financial end of it. And then gradually when I became director, I was right in the middle of it, so I met with the head residents and the house fellows. And my philosophy--

SLB: We wanted to be close to the house fellows. We didn't want older people 00:46:00doing as much directing of students. We'd rather have the house fellows, who were good, young people, and sound, in most instances. Sometimes we'd make a mistake. But, and then we'd have head fellows. And then they would come to us.

And we'd meet with the house fellows regularly, oh, once or twice a week, I mean, every week or every two weeks. Problems, complaints, anything they heard, their house was having troubles, they had difficulties with people. We had on our faculty committee the director of the student health department, Lou Cole, and the dean of women and the dean of men and their assistants. Then we'd have 00:47:00professors, like Professor [Kowalki?], Dr. Bradley, I mentioned him before. And there were several women that, by the time, I can't tell you their names now. But I think I have it in here someplace. But they were people who would help us in problems between the department and the university. And give us ideas. Sometimes we'd meet with the director of athletics, Harry Stuhldreher. And he'd always be helpful.

And I think the key to it was having good house fellows, and giving them training, and then giving them responsibilities. And we had very few that we had to leave out. Because they grew up in the halls and they knew what they were supposed to do. So we had a few water fights now and then.

BT: You still do sometimes.

SLB: Yes. But then we wanted the students to have a business organization. And they started their own store, and they made good money on the store. They started their own libraries. And kept them up. And we wanted them, if they wanted to have parties, to stay on the campus, the Union or the halls. We'd 00:49:00always be ready to use a dining room for a dance and have it fixed up in the morning for breakfast. They'd decorate it, and they'd all help.

And once in a while we'd have a young man or young woman who just didn't fit in. Then we would discuss it with the dean of women or the dean of men. And they sometimes had good suggestions, and they'd meet with us. Sometimes we'd have to send them home, too. But very few. And we had a good relationship. And Don was known as Don, and I was known as Lee, and that's the way we wanted it.

BT: I want to talk about one more topic before we, we'll take a break then. And then we'll get into your associate director and the war, which I'm very 00:50:00interested in, and immediate post-war years. We said we'd get to this a minute ago about twenty minutes ago. But you talked about professors. What was their, before you became associate director in the period of the '30s when you were here, what was their involvement in housing, and who were some of the key figures?

SLB: Well, we had faculty committees, one for the women and one for the men. And the chairman of that was always the dean of women and dean of men, or their assistants. And they'd have, they would appoint the president on recommendation, usually by the director, or the dean of men or the dean of women. Good, interesting faculty members. Kiekhofer was on [it at one?] time. And I mentioned 00:51:00[Kowalki?] and the women were in the, gee whiz, I'll have to look up and see if I can remember their names. But they were good, very interested faculty members. And then they met and would discuss, and Don or I would ask them about any problems at all, what they heard, and who were good house fellow candidates. And we were always looking for a good house fellow.

BT: Did they do things like [stuff like, things like the?] catering staff up for meals, things like that?

SLB: Oh, yes. And the girls, especially, had a lot of faculty members in for meals.

BT: Who invited them; you? [speaking simultaneously]

SLB: The Presidents--no, we didn't. The students would. We didn't want, we wanted the students to have the people they wanted. We'd make suggestions to the house fellows or the presidents, you know. Gee, so and so is really a good ski instructor, and what not. They'd go for that. And they had practically all of the full time professors and their wives over. And the girls especially would always have dinner guests. And on Sundays and holidays. And we wanted the faculty to feel free if they were having trouble with anyone to call one of us. Then we would go to the head resident and house fellow, discuss it with them 00:53:00sometimes. Lou Kohl was a great deal of help in the student health department, you know.

BT: Do you remember some of the like the favorite professors of students who were invited over more often than others?

SLB: Yes. I think Kiekhofer was one, and the deans, always, were favorites.

SO: Troxell and Goodnight.

SLB: Troxell and Goodnight. And later on, their successors. And some of the professors in the college of commerce, and law school. I'm trying to think of some of them. They'd, and they'd always have a lot of fun with them. And they'd invite them, I'd like to think a little bit more on some of the names. Because my memory isn't as well as it used to be, as good, I mean.

BT: Sure. [words unclear--speaking to SO in background]

SLB: Yes. And then, but we wanted them to have outsiders in.

BT: What about Leonard? William Ellory Leonard? Was he [in and out by any chance?]

SLB: Well, not very often.

BT: He was kind of an unusual figure. [laughs]

SLB: Yeah. He hung around the Union all the time. And oh, boy, he'd be swimming out there. And he was a really strange fellow.

SO?: [laughs] He sure sounds like it.

BT?: What about Margaret [Doberg?]

SLB: Yeah, she was fine. Real good.

BT: Was she around the dorms a lot?

SLB: Yes. Yes.

BT: I could see her as being--

SLB: Yes, yes. She was, I think Margaret [Doberg?] is still living, isn't she?

BT: Well, they're just doing a major biographical biography of her.

SLB: Is that right?

BT: I don't know if she's still alive or not, but it's being done by someone in the dance department. It should be coming out. Keep an eye out for it.

SLB: Good. Yeah.

BT: See it come out in a year or so.

SLB: I think she lived in Tucson, didn't she, toward the end?

BT: I don't know. I'm just starting to investigate her career here. I don't know anything about what happened afterward.

SLB: She married a younger fellow, a lot younger, as I recall. Well.

BT: Getting back to professors, aside from meals, what other types of activities might professors have been involved with students in?

SLB: Usually for dances or anything like that, they would invite some couple as their guests. And what do you call, the chaperones. The girls, especially, had a great number of guests. And the house fellows would pick their favorite professors often, invite them for Sunday dinner or for a party. And then Dorm Sylvania, you know, their annual big blowout. And that was a big party.

BT: What was it called?

SLB: Dorm Sylvania.

BT: Why was it called Dorm Sylvania? [laughs]

SLB: Well, you'll have to ask the student. But man-oh-man they'd take you over like both doors at Carson Gulley there, and two orchestras. It was a real dress up, black tie. And they had more professors in for an evening meal, their wives. And then go back over to their dens. And usually talk, visit for a while. So that they could get to know. And there were some that were much more, well, they were very active with students. And they had their favorite, again, I'll have to--

BT: Is this one of their favorites? I'm just fishing. Max Otto?

SLB: Oh, yes. Oh, Max Otto. And his wife was a peach.

BT: I don't know anything about his wife.

SLB: Yes. Yes. She was a wonderful woman.

BT: I seem to recall, I should have listened to that tape, Steve did, Mr. Halverson talking about teas on Sunday afternoon--

SLB: Yeah.

BT: --where the faculty were invited. Was that a tradition that was continued for a fairly long time?

SLB: Oh, yes. It was.

BT: Was that when you came?

SLB: Yeah.

BT: Did it continue, also?

SLB: Oh, yes. They were still having their teas on Sunday. Not every Sunday, but special teas.

BT: How long did that continue before it pretty much died?

SLB: Well, I suppose, I would guess in the early '50s.

BT: Oh, that long?

SLB: During the war years, of course, there was a great upset. We had to move kids out and turn them over to the military. But they were tremendous on that. There were no major problems.

BT: I want you to comment on one-- do you have a question, Steve?

SO: Well, before we get too far away from it, when you came here first as a student, did you live in the residence halls then under a house fellow?

SLB: No, I lived in the Union.

BT: I see. There was student housing in the Union then.

SLB: No. There was just a top floor of the commons wing, there were, oh, fifteen rooms up there. Mostly guest rooms. Few professors. And they wanted somebody to live in for on call, for emergency. Like the night watchman used to come up 00:59:00every once in a while, somebody was so drunk they couldn't get in. Herman Egstad was--

BT: Some things never change. [laughs]

SLB: Herman Egstad was trying to kick in the front door. No, don't mention him. He was the, Egstad was the alumni director. He was a character. But he lived there. And Porter Butts lived there for a while, too, just after he was married. And so I lived there sort of day and night, it seemed to me, for a while. But I lived also right down on Partridge Street here. And I saw the old apartment house with Dr. Antonius and Johnny Walsh was there for a while. So we used to 01:00:00have some fun, I'll tell you.

BT: I want to ask you about two more characters. One, serious, and one you might get a guffaw over, because Mr. Halverson sure did. The first one, tell me a little bit about George Sellery.

SLB: Well--

BT: Apparently he fought a little bit against housing.

SLB: Yes, he did. Yes, he did. He felt that the business of the university, I think, was the instructional teaching and what not. And I don't think Sellery ever realized how much, how much education comes from group living. I just, he was nice. I don't think we ever had many arguments with him. And Scott Goodnight was very good dean of men, you know, and his successors were very helpful, as 01:01:00were the dean of women. But I don't think he was my favorite professor.

BT: He was succeeded in L&S by Mark Ingraham. What the switch there? Was there a switch?

SLB: Well, I think Sellery retired at that time. Didn't he?

BT: Yeah. Was there, how did Ingraham treat housing?

SLB: Very, very fine. He was, Mark was a good friend of ours. He was always, but they were always fighting for funds for their projects. Well, actually, the halls never did have much of any subsidy from the general fund. It was, you make it. You've got to--

BT: You've got to find your own way?

SLB: Yes. And when we'd build in--I think with Mark there was some agitation, 01:02:00when we'd build in certain locations. But he certainly was fine. And the last time before he died, I stopped and saw him, he reminded me of when I was head waiter at the Union and they were having a big banquet and I went over, I couldn't get a hold of him to find out just exactly how many there were. And he said that, I think it was 502, or something like that. So the next day he called me and he said, "Lee, how many were there?"

And I said, "Well, you're a mathematician. Can't you tell me?"

He said, "Five hundred and two."

And I said, "That's what you're billed for." [laughs] So he really had a sense 01:03:00of humor. Most people didn't think so. But I think Mark was--

BT: You had the feeling that he was a little more in agreement with the housing philosophy as opposed to Dean Sellery?

SLB: Yes. Well, Sellery just didn't, he wasn't much interested in it, I'm sorry to say, I don't think. At least, that wasn't my impression. All of the dean of men and dean of women that we had were very friendly. They were on our faculty committee and of course we worked with them very closely. When we had serious problems, why, they would get involved. And same way, Lou Kohl at the student clinic. And he was one of the original house fellows, I think.

BT: Let's talk about him for just one second. Then I promise we'll take a break. Was he in charge of psychiatric--

SLB: No.

BT: Physician services.

SLB: He was in charge of the student health department.

BT: Student health department. When, to the best of your recollections, did 01:04:00student psychiatric services begin? I'm trying to trace that down and having a little trouble.

SLB: I don't know, but we sure would refer them over there. Oh, man, again, my memory isn't what it should be.

BT: That's all right.

SLB: But they handled some very difficult problems. They were always very helpful. And there was, Washburn, Annette Washburn--

BT: That's a name I don't know.

SLB: --helped a great deal on problems.

BT: On mental problems.

SLB: Yes.

BT: Psychiatric problems.

SLB: Yes. Either men or women. I think she was better with the fellows than she was with women.

BT: Washburn was a she.

SLB: Yes.

BT: I didn't realize that.

SLB: She was a really, and she was on our faculty committee for a while, which was good.

BT: How long did your faculty committee go on, then?

SLB: Oh, golly.

BT: Is that still going?

SLB: I imagine so. The new one--well, but our faculty committee was, till I 01:05:00left, it was still functioning. It was good. Here they could see things and call our attention to problems as far as studies are concerned. But we had a good family. We had a good staff. Don was tremendous that way. He made you work like hell, but he'd give you responsibility, and he didn't interfere. If something went wrong, it was you and me. Tell you what you did wrong. And that was all right.

BT: I just noticed one more topic that we may not have covered. Real quick, again, I promise after this we'll take a break. Before we get to 1937, there was a little thing that happened in the United States of America during the early 01:06:00'30s and mid '30s called the Depression. What kind of effect did the Depression have on housing?

SLB: It was real tough. It was real tough. And we made no money. We kept the rates just as low as we could. And the halls were pretty well filled, though. But then I was at the Union at the time, and the banks all closed and people didn't have any money. And so Don said, "Well, let's issue these chits so that people can borrow, use them, and then they'd pass back eventually." Well, he got 01:07:00in a little trouble with the business office about doing it without getting clearance. But we did it. And we got paid back everything there.

But it was tough going. Our staff was, got thin. I was at the Union, at the business office there. And it was damn tough. And the dorms were not as full as they normally were. Normally they were always filled, with a waiting list. Well, we were paying thirty-five cents an hour for student helpers, and that wasn't too much. It was a couple of rough years. But we never closed any halls.

BT: Oh, you never did.

SLB: No.

BT: Was that one of the things that induced you to come to Wisconsin, a job here? During those rough times?

SLB: Well, I don't want to mention the school I went to in Minnesota, but I didn't enjoy it at all. [laughs] Then I spent, at Glacier Park, spent a year out West, San Francisco, with a kid, a young fellow who wanted to go to Wisconsin. And I did, too. That's why I really was interested in Wisconsin.

BT: So you were interested in Wisconsin even before you met Mr. Halverson.

SLB: Yes, very much so.

BT: It wasn't a very tough sell that he had to do, then.

SLB: No, no! Not at all. I should say not. I was very, very happy to get here. And those were tough years, though, at the Union, I'm telling you; and the residence halls, the same way. And there were lots of vacancies. But they 01:09:00managed to pay their amortization on schedule. We never got behind. But golly, students, thirty cents. We had meals at the Union for thirty-five cent special, thirty cent special, you know. And we had to cut back a great deal. And many students, well, we had less students, of course. But they were good sports about it, it seems to me. But they were--

BT: Was there a kind of solidarity to pull together, like the Depression was here and we're all in the same boat?

SLB: Well, we've always had pretty good student government, at least while I was here. And they helped in some areas. But they gave up proms, I think, and things like that. They had hard time parties, you know. Come dressed in overalls and so 01:10:00on. They took it well. But there were a lot of kids that had to go home because they just couldn't pay anything at all. And as far as any bills were concerned with students, we didn't have any that we never collected from. They paid for two, three, four years, some of them. But we didn't--

SO: So you did extend like a sort of credit, then, to the students to allow them, like when they got out of school and got a job to pay you back?

SLB: Yes.

SO: Was this okayed by the business office?

SLB: Yes. But we had to darn careful about it. We didn't do it an awful lot, but we did it for some. Because we just didn't know where we were going. And then of course, the war years were rough, too. When we get into those.

BT: We're going to head into those in just-- [pause]

BT: Why don't we begin this part with a general overview of your career at UW from 1937 on?

SLB: Well, '37 I was promoted to assistant director, residence halls. The halls were expanding. We were getting ready to build there, and this, the Union theater was being built. So Porter had a big job with that. And we were, I went with residence halls. And they were badly needed. And as assistant director, I thought there were greater opportunities ahead for me in the management of a 01:12:00large department and feeding and housing and the construction of, we were just starting on construction of Elizabeth Waters Hall and the Kronshage units. And I assisted in the plans and the furnishings and the equipping of the new halls.

We had a building committee, Don and I planned out the kitchen and the serving plans, and working very closely with the state architect's office. And we had a student and a staff committee. We were assisted with a interior decorator from 01:13:00Whitewater, good friend, [Leon Pecheray?]. And I just felt that I would enjoy that work more than the Union work, much as I had enjoyed that. So the state architect, I worked closely with them. And then also the purchasing department, and working on the furniture, equipment, and the layouts and the whole deal there. And Don and I worked, and I learned an awful lot in that field.

And we operated two cooperative houses. Susan Davis and Zoe Bayliss were 01:14:00cooperative living, girls. I think they're still. And then also the two men, Schreiner and [Bauman?] Houses. And there again, these are pretty much self contained. And they were considerably less costly as far as living was concerned, with the kids doing most of the work. It was a lot of fun.

SLB: But then came World War Two. And we had, before that, we had the Elm Drive grouping. We had to replan the Chadbourne. And then later on the Southwest area 01:15:00with Gordon, Sellery, Ogg. And all those, and worked very closely on the planning and the purchasing. Spent a lot of time with the state purchasing department there. I enjoyed that sort of work.

And then came World War Two. And the request from the federal government for assistance. And Dykstra was the president at that time. And Al Peterson, A.W. Peterson was the comptroller and the business manager of the university. And 01:16:00they first requested housing, feeding, and instructional space for eighteen hundred navy personnel. And boy oh boy, we had some tall moving around to do. Students took it real well. We had to clear out certain halls. And the first request was for twelve hundred navy radio personnel. And the regents quickly passed the legislation for the director of residence halls to negotiate for any off campus rental to sell these. And the assistant director and director, Don and I and another young man, Vic [Bringe?], assisted in the rental of all the facilities we could. And the fraternities were closing up, you know, and they 01:17:00didn't have enough. Sororities were fuller, but we got most of the fraternity houses. And then we had both the arrangements for the housing and the food service for the trainees. Some of the ones down on Langdon Street we served at the Union.

SLB: But then they pushed us more and more. Dykstra appointed Don Halverson as chairman of the Emergency Housing Committee. And with Joe Bayliss the office of 01:18:00dean of women, [Blanch Stamme?] the housing bureau, and dean of men. And there were two students to assist in any problems they could, and be available for feelings. And actually this committee was very helpful in making available housing and food facilities. Don was, shifted to associate director of business and finance. I was made director of the War Housing Office and working very closely with the [above parties?]. That was 1942. And directly with the military staff. I'm feeding, and boy, I had a large map of the university area, Langdon Street area, and mapped out where all the houses were, and we took over the 01:19:00fraternity houses. Cleaned them out, refurnished them, you know. And served many of them at the Union. And then took over, let's see, Joe Camp, who was the young man and house fellow in, it was not, couldn't pass the medical standard for the army or the navy. And he did a good job with working with the Housing Committee.

And gradually we had up and down Langdon Street, I don't know how many houses now. And we had practically all of the fraternity houses. And this is just 01:20:00between us, but they were, the last parties they held were really dillies. [laughter] Oh, boy, we had housing, we had a real job cleaning some of those up and getting them all, and we had quite a few of the fraternity houses, practically all of the Kronshage houses were reserved for the air force and for the navy.

And the next year we had one house at 615 North Henry Street for kids that we had to move out of the dorm. And we rented it and sort of as a cooperative house. And they named it Halburn House, after Don and me. It was used for three 01:21:00years. But it was really hard to get a place to live in those days with the number of army and navy personnel that we had in here.

And during two years, a contingent of the air force were stationed in Gilman and Mack house, where the [Kronshage units is. Captain Hastings, his staff fitted well with the navy group. And if any of university staff, or we were invited to the graduation exercises every time a bunch that went. And we had real good commanders here. Fellows like [Leonard Shubert, and Pollard in the navy, Captain Hastings in the air force. And their noncommissioned officers, who were most cooperative.

SLB: And they loved our food in the hall. And the navy in 1942 requested the 01:22:00university to set up a navy cooks and bakers school. And they, as I said, were very impressed with the Wisconsin food service. And the last group we had in '42, '43, a few in '44. But they were directly supervised by a former hospital dietitian, Mrs. Helen [Vesey?]. I think [Vesey?] was the, her husband was the finance officer up at the state capital, budget director.

And suddenly the, in August, 1942, the navy requested space for 470 women personnel, WAVs. And also some Coast Guard women. And a hectic month or two 01:23:00followed with the dean of women's office assisting to relocate the university girls so that they--

BT: So the university people would move out to other housing--

SLB: That's right.

BT: And the military personnel would get the prime, or the--

SO: Dorms.

BT: Dorm space.

SLB: That's right. And also, we were interested in saving the fraternities and sororities. And you see, fraternities, especially they were all drafted like the rest of the people, practically. So we took over a lot of the fraternity and sorority houses, because there just weren't enough civilian people still going. And we had WAVs here, and the communication school was established with the 01:24:00navy. And the problem with employment was constant as far as we were concerned. If they were warm and could walk, we'd hire them. [laughs] It was almost like that.

BT: It wasn't hard to get a job as a student, then.

SLB: No. or food handling people, too. we had mostly older people to work. And in December, 1942, there were fifty civilian pilot training, mainly marines and pilot training, navy and marines, were housed and fed in the hall. So 1943, three more fraternity houses were taken over. Group after group came for 01:25:00training. Three hundred and fifty meteorologists from the airport. And see, they used the staff of the people here. And that was a strong staff. And we had them in the Kronshage units, four houses in the Kronshage unit. And a young group of ASTR, what was it, the Army--

BT: Service Training [something, something?]

SLB: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

SLB: And the three Badger Club houses in Sterling Court were taking over for that program. ASTR. And I don't know if you know if they're still there, down on Badger Court, there were three cooperative houses down there. And we took those 01:26:00over and fed them in Chadbourne and Barnard, Chadbourne dining hall.

SO: [Did you?] rent these from like the fraternities? Did you pay the fraternity a specific rent per month or per year?

SLB: Yes.

BT: Did the military pay?

SLB: They paid us.

BT: The military paid you.

SLB: Yes. And so the military took care of their expenses, submitted, and they did all right, I think. The ASTR were reservists, seventeen year olders. Later on, we got a bunch of those at the Kronshage group for about a year. So it went on constantly coming and going. Navy was our biggest group.

And during the latter part of '43, end of '44, I was sick. I had God only knows 01:27:00what. But I had surgery here in Madison, and then went up to Rochester. And boy, I was up there for six months. And it was hell for Don and the crew back there. But things were winding down somewhat then. And June, '45, Don left residence halls to become associate director of the business finance. Was April 28 in '45 that I became director of residence halls until I retired.

But these hectic years during the war truly showed what an excellent staff and an outstanding crew that residence halls had. Nothing was too tough or difficult 01:28:00to handle. My gosh, we worked midnight, many times, getting ready. Many hours of overtime, and loyal to the university and the United States. Certainly from our workers, showed up with great honors, we thought. And we enjoyed working with them, but we worked like hell, and our students bore an awful lot of hardships as far as moving is concerned, and getting ready for this and that. And yet, nary a gripe, it seemed to me, that we had from the students. They knew the reasons, and they went right along with it.

And immediately after the war--

BT: Let's stop. Can we go back over the war years for just a couple of minutes?

SLB: Yeah.

BT: Because they're fascinating. So what you had is you had a situation where most of the males on this campus were leaving.

SLB: Right.

BT: And you had the military requesting space without any forewarning, necessarily, for anywhere from twenty people to 1500 or something like that.

SLB: Yeah.

BT: And you were expected to maybe within a week, or two weeks, or three weeks, or whatever the time line, provide housing in dormitory space for these people.

SLB: And feeding.

BT: And feed them.

SLB: Yes.

SO?: [That's an amazing?] situation. [laughs]

SLB: And cooks' training course. My gosh, we set up a training course for cooks and bakers. And gee whiz, we had, I forget how many in here. I've got it someplace, I know. And this was wonderful for the navy. They just thought it was 01:30:00great. Every time we graduated a group, they'd have bass come up from Great Lakes and they made a good deal of it. And we had people like Carson Gulley was a colored chef. And Mrs. Jones. And our staff of dietitians. And boy oh boy, I'm telling you, we trained them.

BT: So Carson Gulley and Mrs. Jones were trainers.

SLB: Well, yes.

BT: Teachers, more or less.

SLB: Actually, there was just the training and safety officer that I was, and here was the cooks' training courses that we used. And really, we trained so 01:31:00many people. And then we got into training afterwards. And I think I need to go take a look at it.

BT: [words unclear--speaking to SO in background]

SLB: Yeah. You can--

BT: I think what we'll do is maybe after the interview we'll go through the documents, with your permission. I'd like to have a look at some.

SLB: Sure. Sure.

BT: You talked also about the relations between university community and the military community. Could you go into a little more detail on that? How were they?

SLB: It was good. We had, never any uprisings or anything like that. There would be some grumbling sometimes when they'd get kicked out to go someplace else. But when we did, it didn't change.

BT: Now between administration and officer, it seems to be pretty good. With one 01:32:00exception. I remember Mr. Halverson talking about a Green guy.

SLB: Oh, really?

BT: And his face still turns red when he talks about Mr. Green. [laughs]

SLB: Oh, he was terrible.

BT: Sergeant Green.

SLB: We had, generally, really good military people.

BT: What about-- go ahead.

SLB: I still--

BT: The relations between the university and the military community. We talked about officers and administrators. What about students and soldiers?

SLB: Never had any uprisings, any arguments, anything like that.

BT: Was there a lot of fraternization between--

SLB: Not much.

BT: Not much.

SLB: No. And they kept the army, navy groups together, and so damn busy that I don't know if they had time for anything else.

BT: Not drinking or anything else. Were they, obviously they were a very visible 01:33:00force on campus. Did they do their parading, marching, and things like that?

SLB: Out on the athletic fields.

BT: When they went to classes, they went to classes in uniform.

SLB: They went to class in uniform, yeah.

BT: So there was real, several principal distinctions between them.

SLB: Oh, yes. Yeah. But there didn't seem to be any hard feelings at all. I mean, we never had oh, they'd grumble a little bit, "Why do we have to move out of here and go down so and so house?" Some fraternity house or something like that. But they understood. And really, I don't think we had any general uprising at any time with any of the military people.

BT: We talked for a bit about the fraternities moving out.

SLB: Yes.

BT: A lot of them were drafted, taking over the houses. And the sororities did the same?

SLB: No.

BT: They stayed in their houses?

SLB: They stayed in their houses.

BT: So it was just the fraternities.

SLB: Fraternities, yeah.

BT: We talked before about the philosophy, you shared it with us, on the student decision making and involvement in housing, etcetera, etcetera. How did that survive during these war years? Did the house fellow [system?] stay intact at all with people off campus?

SLB: Yes. Not with people off campus, but all of any of the houses we had. Not as house fellows. They called them just presidents of houses. We rented it to them and took care of it. We had a, gosh, I don't think we'd call them house fellows. But in many of the houses we had, yeah, we had house fellows for the women, and not for the men. And then the women and the head residents are still 01:35:00watch very closely after all the houses. But we had to remove like all of the ones out at Barnard and Chadbourne Hall. And we did the best we could. There was no hard feelings. I mean, I'm sure there were disappointments. But we never had any sort of an uprising or showing or complaints that they were taking care of this or that or any other thing.

BT: So if I could summarize it, you can correct me if you want, during the war years, then, in terms of the philosophical basis of housing, students off campus, those placements, they're pretty much on their own as they are today, living away from campus. But on campus, the girls' dorms pretty much stayed as they were with the house fellow concept. The boys' dorm changed slightly in terms of names, but the general day to day operations didn't change all that much.

SLB: Well, they had a different--

BT: They boys.

SLB: The boys. It was different with the fellows.

BT: Let's go through that again. I'm not quite sure I understand how it was different.

SLB: I don't know exactly if I can explain it. We certainly didn't have any association with the, we didn't have any house fellows. They had, what do they call the--

BT: House mothers?

SLB: No, no, the house fellows. I mean, the army. The navy had lieutenants and commanders. Yeah, they had their platoons and they had their squad leaders and what did they call them in the army? The navy? But it was all handled by the 01:37:00navy and their, oh gosh, it's the lower lieutenants, ensigns.

BT: It was all by rank. Petty officers, corporals, sergeants, all this, they all had--

SLB: Yeah. And we worked directly through the top men. Like Commander Green, sometimes. [laughs] Shubert was tremendous. And actually, we had good relations with him. But you never knew it, you know? One day all of a sudden they'd say, "We're sending out 250 people." Where are you going to take care of them? And Al 01:38:00Peterson was the business manager. And Don was his assistant. And by golly, some way or another we'd make changes. And even the Union had the dances and parties over there for them, and for the Rathskellar, and the Pine Room was hangouts for the petty officers.

But the students never, to my knowledge, oh, I think they were upset that they had to move and like that, but they never made any outside complaint. Or never any article in the Cardinal when it ran was unfavorable towards the military. And we were fortunate. We had some real good, like Shubert was a tremendous guy 01:39:00in the army man was swell that we worked with. But we had a few that, like Green and one other guy that came here and expected the university to provide a fancy home for them out in Maplewood. There were a couple like that. But the majority of them were down to earth people.

BT: Did you have any problems with discipline, like between the services? Was there rivalry, I don't know--fighting--between army, navy, air force?

SLB: No.

BT: Like, when, not off duty, at the Rathskellar?

SLB: Oh, yeah, once in a while. You did hear about a brawl downtown that they had in some tavern or something like that, but not too often. And they had the chief petty officers that were watching over them pretty well.

BT: Did you have a contingent of military police, MPs, on campus, to take care 01:40:00of such things?

SLB: Yeah.

SO?: They handled military matters, and Madison police handled student matters?

SLB: That's right.

BT: One more question about the students who were remaining in dorms at that time throughout the war years now. What, did the faculty continue to do pretty much with what they had done before the war years in terms of eating a lot at the houses? Did anything change?

SLB: Oh, there weren't many, there weren't many halls that housed students during those years.

BT: So they were mainly, students were mainly off campus at this point.

SLB: And down very low, of course.

BT: And down because of numbers, yeah?

SLB: Enrollment, that's right.

BT: So your job, I guess, was probably more in finding the military housing and taking care of those.

SLB: Really, it was much more so, yeah.

BT: So if Steve was writing a little outline of the history of housing, you wouldn't say that housing stopped during this period, certainly--

SLB: No.

BT: --because there was still housing on campus. But you would say that the shift in emphasis in the war years was on providing housing for the military personnel.

SLB: Housing and feeding--

BT: So you never knew when they were coming.

SLB: No. Well, they tried to give us a little notice.

BT: How much notice did you usually get?

SLB: Oh, maybe a week.

BT: Did you ever get a call saying we're sending 400 down the day after tomorrow?

SLB: Yes. And we put them in the stadium. [laughs]

SO: In tents?

SLB: No, they were just enclosing the stadium on this side. And they had a couple of rooms up in there that we would, but we'd have to take care of the feeding of them.

BT: So you'd say, get your sleeping bags and stuff, you're going to sleep on the floor until we can find you something?

SLB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BT: And how long would they normally stay, the groups?

SLB: Well, for the navy, it usually was three to six, three months. I think twelve weeks would be about the maximum. Then a new group would come in.

BT: So it was a constant turnaround.

SLB: Yeah.

BT: And it might not be the same group replacing the other group.

SLB: No.

BT: The same type of situation.

SLB: But more, more, more so. We had by far the most navy.

BT: Yeah. Was this, was what happened here pretty much standard on university campuses around the country?

SLB: Yes. In the big ten, they'd have--

BT: In the Big Ten?

SLB: Yeah. Yeah. Because I know Indiana used to call up and say-- [laughs] This is off the record. She was a large, what did we call her--Big Ten group has always been close together. But she'd call up and she'd say, "Lee, what the hell do you do when the goddamn navy sends in 1200 more people since we take care of [our pallets?]?" They give you short notice. But they all had them. And it was good for us, too. Because after all, I imagine we would have had a lot of empty 01:43:00halls at those times. And the fraternities, certainly, we helped a good deal.

SO: Was there a feeling, a general feeling, of patriotism on campus? From the faculty and staff and students, these people being here?

SLB: Generally, they were well accepted. And the Rathskellar and the Pine Room, gosh, I know I met a couple of, what do you call them, military police in the navy in Chicago when I was down there. [Yeah?] and they'd say, "What the hell are you doing? You should be in the Pine Room." So they took care of their own people.

BT: So during the off hours, though, like on a Friday night, for example, you could see soldiers and students down at the Rathskellar?

SLB: Oh, yeah.

BT: Or you could see soldiers and students at the Log Cabin on State Street. Or 01:44:00at the pub or something like that.

SLB: Pine Room, too.

BT: Yeah. Okay. So the fraternization could occur during the off hours.

SLB: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

BT: But not during the working hours, more or less.

SLB: Not during working hours. But there were very few fights between civilians. Every often you'd have a couple of navy guys go to it, or get too much beer or something like that. But that was normal. And we had really a fine group, generally speaking. And the air force group with Captain Hastings, meteorologist, Gilman and Turner House. And Mack House. And oh, boy, he had them under his thumb. And I'm telling you, they really worked hard.

BT: When the groups left, what kind of shape did they leave the dorms in?

SLB: Well, there was an awful lot of wear and tear on the place. But in general, 01:45:00we'd have our crew go in and clean it up and be ready for the next one.

BT: Like that frat house after like a blowout.

SLB: No, no, no, no. And with the navy, we were never sure when somebody was coming when they pulled some group out. Maybe two days' notice. And then we'd get in and clean up the place, and be all set for them. We had, we worked like hell during those years. And I tried, they offered me a, this is off--I wouldn't put it in the record. They offered me a senior grade lieutenant. And I went down to Great Lakes, but I couldn't pass the physical. That's when I ended up in 01:46:00Rochester. But they were really very cooperative with the university. And I don't think that they were rowdy or anything like that. And they liked our meals very much. And we had a training group for cooks and bakers, which helped us, too. And we continued.

Actually, I got real interested in training employees after seeing how they did it. And I was training an officer for the university after, for the residence halls, after I retired as director for quite a few years. And I'm telling you, I think that training is the key to institutional management that hasn't been 01:47:00emphasized enough. But there were hectic years during that war because, but we had a loyal staff.

BT: One more question. Oh, yeah. In the houses, you said that pretty much soldiers, navy lived in one house, students, women might be in another, girls', army in another. Were there situations where they would be shared? Or was that pretty much avoided?

SLB: No. It was avoided. Yeah.

BT: I'm pretty satisfied with the war years. I have a real good feeling--Steve, how about you?

SO: I have no questions.

BT: Okay. Why don't you continue with your narrative then, post war?

SLB: All right. Yeah. As I said, it was in '45 that Mr. Halverson left residence halls to become associate director of the business finance. And then I became 01:48:00director of residence halls until I retired. And I can't speak enough for the loyal staff that we had during the war. And the hours of overtime and loyalty to the university and the military. And certainly our staffs and workers to serve a lot of honor and our students bore the hardships. The moves, the changes, with really hardly ever a gripe or a moan or anything like that.

But immediately after the war, and I'm changing, and especially the university I 01:49:00think faced the greatest crisis as far as housing was concerned. Because we had a great influx of returning veterans, you know, whose education had been interrupted. And so negotiating with the army and the navy and the federal housing commission, the men in bureaus in Washington, was tedious. But Al Peterson and Don Halverson were darn good at it. And President Fred, too, was very forceful, helpful. And 1945, when word came, it was in December, that a section of Truax Field was turned over to the university, we got the base 01:50:00hospital out there. And two, three large housing or classroom buildings, which we changed over into housing. It was, they were released to the university. And I was director of housing at that time. And I just moved out there and headed up the situation at the time. And then Newell Smith got out of the army. And boy, he was a great help. And he, we made him manager of the Truax Field project out there. And Larry Halle was placed in charge of the Badger Village. We had these people coming to the university, and no place to house them. Many were married students.

And so we first also put up trailer camps. We had trailers at Camp Randall, and 01:51:00Monroe Park, across here. We had about 250 of them there. And East Hill Farm, we had a trailer camp out there. Pretty much where the Midvale--

BT: Hillsdale Shopping Center

SLB: Hillsdale Shopping Center is there now. And [Einer?] Anderson, [Murell] Jackson were our maintenance men. And boy, if there was any time that we worked hours and hours overtime, it was after, and the return back, to take care of the veterans. And their married, their families. Cabin Court, we made a lot--where 01:52:00[Janney Jostewicz?] used to be back there. We got a spot and could move in some trailers in there.

BT: Who is "we?"

SLB: Well, I was the director of housing. And Newell Smith was one of my assistants.

BT: So you looked for places to [come to?]

SLB: Oh, yes, yes.

BT: Did you have a committee that you worked with, too?

SLB: No.

BT: So it was pretty much catch as catch can.

SLB: Al Peterson and Don Halverson certainly helped as far as getting Truax Field and Badger Village.

BT: So you'd look and you'd see Cabin Courts and you'd say, "Let's get something there right away."

SLB: Yeah, right away.

BT: And then you'd contact--

SLB: And they would work out--

BT: Who would build it.

SLB: Yeah.

BT: Was it a private contractor? Or were there campus people doing the building, mainly?

SLB: Well, we had both.

BT: Both?

SLB: We had both. But we had to have it go private. Because the Buildings and 01:53:00Grounds was so doggone busy, although they helped a great deal. We also had to have some [there?].

SLB: The toughest part of all was for married student housing, as you might expect. And I don't know if you read the Susan Davis, The Veteran's Wife?

BT: It's in the archives, and I've looked at it. I gave you the first page of it.

SO: Yeah, I haven't seen that.

BT: Steve will be reading it very carefully.

SLB: And that was in, well, let's see, Newell was manager of the Truax Field project. And Larry Halle was up at Badger Village. Now you know where that is? Where the Hercules plant was? And then we ran buses back and forth from both places to the campus. And to get buses through the army and the navy, army, I 01:54:00mean, was hell. But we got them from all over the country.

BT: The buses? You got buses, requisitioned them through the army?

SLB: Yeah.

BT: I didn't know that.

SLB: Yeah. And the trailer camps out here--[Randall, Monroe?] Park, and we just worked day and night. That was one of the hardest times I think we ever had. But we wanted a place where we could live, the returning veterans. And this Badger Village, boy, oh boy, we had one kid, he went with CIA. We had quite a few house fellows that went with the CIA after. And he headed up the bus business. 01:55:00Buildings and grounds helped. Their head mechanic helped handle the bus problems. And, well, it's kind of interesting if you want to read part of this. But that was a busy, busy time for the university.

I spent a lot of time with the public housing administration, the office of the transportation corps, trying to get furniture, equipment, buses, in Chicago, Great Lakes. And Al Peterson and Don Halverson did a marvelous job with the federal officials. It was a difficult time for our staff. And I say, I can never forget the cooperation that we received from the staff. And that veterans, Susan 01:56:00Davis wrote, she used to be one of our head residents. And then the assistant dean. And she wrote that. And it's quite interesting, I think, if you read it.

SLB: In the meantime, university residence halls were going at full capacity. And we had house fellows, both men and women, same as before. We had some veterans, some younger men, of course, and women. But these war veterans were an outstanding group for us and for the young people, too. They'd come in, and they 01:57:00didn't [split up?]. They took charge pretty well. Many of them were house fellows. And throughout the war years and after, well, I couldn't imagine a more understanding, more helpful group for our students. It was really a great experience for our younger staff, a gratifying one for our older staff. Our head residents in the women's halls were wonderful, and our men and women house fellows seemed to understand an awful lot of very difficult problems which returned veterans, there were real problems. They'd gone through a lot. And the student health department--oh, Dr.--was great, he was on our faculty committee. 01:58:00But that transportation with the buses was a rough one. But we'd get some of these army or navy men, army men, who had been in the corps. And they really went to town.

BT: Did you employ them? Some of the former veterans, say, that lived out at Badger Village to like help repair the buses, or keep them in running order? Or use them as drivers?

SLB: Drivers, we did. But buildings and grounds, garage, the head mechanic, took over the repair of the--

BT: The army head mechanic.

SLB: No, the buildings and grounds.

BT: I see. Sorry.

SLB: And really, we kept them running. I don't know how the hell they did it. 01:59:00But this one guy we had was just marvelous at scheduling them through bad weather, good weather. They'd come on time, and we never had any accidents up at Badger Village. Put Newell in charge of Truax project. We included two cafeterias. We ran them out there. We got a lot of help. Then Larry Halle, in charge of Badger Village, was, that was a big project up there. And running buses back and forth, and setting up the nursery up there. And President Fred and Mrs. Fred went up sometimes, weekends, just to visit with the returning veterans.

BT: Now was Badger Village, was that all vets?

SLB: Yes.

BT: And married as well as--

SLB: Yes.

BT: So there were married veterans--

SLB: They were all married.

BT: Okay. What about Truax?

SLB: They were mostly married.

BT: So the regular dorms were pretty much the regular undergraduate students?

SLB: Yes. Undergraduate students.

BT: And the other special places were all for veterans.

SLB: Yes.

SO: Was this done deliberately to separate the veterans from the regular undergrads? Like especially the single veterans?

SLB: Single veterans could live in the dorms.

BT: So these were all just married housing.

SLB: This was married housing. Because it was impossible to get a place. You know, right down in Camp Randall, we had trailers all over that area there. And, yeah.

SLB: And, well, some buildings were moved into for temporary classrooms. So it was a wild time there. The East Hill Farm, trailer project, we had a big flood out there. They had a terrific rainstorm and the drainage wasn't right. I remember I went out there with my boots, and we had a boat out there. But they all seemed to live through it. And we had a good staff. The house fellows were, I think we had maybe more veterans, house fellows, than non veterans. And they were understanding.

BT: Did that, having veteran house fellows and having vets in the dorms, did that change the whole flavor of the vets from pre war?

SLB: Not particularly. Really, they fit in better than I could have imagined. 02:02:00And there was no feeling, or never any uprising between the groups. Oh, sure. We'd have some veterans, sick veterans, that sometimes just wouldn't fit in, and we'd have to remove them. They were busy. And they came back, and they were going to the university for a real thing. Freshmen and the mixture of many of the social programs with the mixture of the mature veteran groups and the regular students, it worked very well. So there were meetings that the veterans had, but they were all, we mixed them together. We did not separate the single 02:03:00students there. And it was one busy time.

BT: You treated them as though, the UW health service then treated some of the veterans, or some that you had for like shell shock, I would say, or whatever horrors they had gone through.

SLB: Yes. Psychiatry department was very, very busy at that time. But there were really, the veterans were so mature. And unless they had had some unusual experience, why, I don't think we had any more trouble then.

BT: That's why I guess I was kind of asking that question what had changed?, because it would seem that being through war would make a person a different person than an eighteen year old freshman coming in from Chilton, Wisconsin, or something like that.

SLB: Well, it was amazing how, I must say, the majority of veterans were married 02:04:00or became married very quickly. That's why we had such a tremendous portion of the married housing.

BT: I suppose they were making up for four lost years.

SLB: That's right. They'd come back and they'd get married and come to the university, and where were they going to live? Some way or another, we found places for most of them. And of course, the city of Madison did a real good job, too, of helping out there. But during the war years, we tried to, residence halls tried to send newsletters as much as we could, or right after that, so that people knew where they were. I think I've got copies here someplace. We 02:05:00sent them, and I think it was appreciated a great deal. The house fellow group, those that had been here, why-- like this was later on.

BT: Did the idea for Eagle Heights, then, come out of this need for married student housing?

SLB: Oh, yeah. Faculty housing and married student housing. Very much so, indeed. Buildings and Grounds Department and Physical Plant built the first married student housing out there in [Rand?]. They didn't build, I mean they 02:06:00were WARF--W.A.R.F--built them, financed them. And Buildings and Grounds handled them for a while, but then transferred them to us. And so we had one of our staff brought there--[Fritz?] he's still in town here. I'll think of the name in a minute. It was our first housing director, our manager out there. And then the university built more married student housing out there. But faculty got the first preference out there.

BT: To live out there?

SLB: Yes. I mean, faculty veterans. And there were a lot of them. And then the 02:07:00tent colony, we didn't have anything to do with that. Buildings and grounds had the tent colony out there.

BT: This was on the Eagle Heights grounds, out toward Picnic Point.

SLB: Picnic Point, at the base of Picnic Point, out there. But we really endeavored to send out a newsletter to all of our former house fellows and staff, like we did there. Just to keep them informed. It was, I think it was a rough, rough time, right after the war. Opening up two ice fields, Badger Village. Getting all these trailers. And we worked day and night.

SLB: And in October, 1954, I resigned because of health problems as director, and Newell became director. And after a six-months rest, vacation, my interest 02:08:00and love for university halls, I returned and remained until I retired in '76. And I worked as a part time consultant with Newell as director. And I worked mainly in the training field, setting up programs for better training of employees. And it was a time when a lot of employees were being added to our staff, and for almost all classes of employees, we had a good tradition as far as working arrangements were concerned. But we had never really set up as good 02:09:00[why,?] training programs as we should. I was chairman, along with a Penn State fellow of the training committee of the Association of American College Housing Officers. And our training program for chefs, cooks, housekeepers, maids, janitors, that's what I worked on, mainly, setting up the training program for them.

And we believe it helped the division maintain the high standards. Because I think from a food standpoint, we have had excellent food. And Don Halverson was one that set good standards as far as food. And he, of course, had retired and was in the business office and then later retired. So much of my time and efforts in my work with the university and with residence halls, largely in the 02:10:00field of administration and operations, and supervising the county offices and working on budgets. But I think it was a philosophy in the housing area that was really the thing that held our department together. And we sure worked like hell. But Don was a keystone, really, in setting up as far as the house fellow 02:11:00and the organization.

And we were real interested in students and what they were doing. If they wanted a store, then we would help them. And they have had, I don't know if it's still running now or not--

BT: Yes, it is.

SLB: It is. Mack House store? And we were always willing to cooperate with them if they wanted to set one of their basement rooms up for barbell club or for anything, why we'd go along. And there were the choice of the young men and women to serve as house fellows was, we wanted the smaller units. So that you'd have forty or fifty together. They'd have, they'd get to know each other, 02:12:00usually. They'd have a house fellow to go to. They had their own student government. I don't know how much money the men's halls association has now. But they had real high financial success in their stores and their other things there.

BT: Getting back to the house fellows there for a second. After World War Two, World War Two almost didn't count as housing because of all these other things that were happening with the soldiers and everything. Did the selection process remain the same after the war as it did, then, before the war?

SLB: Yeah.

BT: Did the decisions, did the focus on student decision making and that whole aspect, did that remain the same, return to the same?

SLB: Yes, it did.

BT: In the talk with Merle Curti--

SLB: We tried harder.

BT: In a talk with Merle Curti that John [Bankums?] and I had several months ago, we asked him to list the most significant change in the university pre-war 02:13:00and the modern university. He said that he's thought a lot about it, and the main variable seems to be size. The size of the university has changed things so radically. What effect did the size of the university have on housing in the post-World War Two years?

SLB: Oh, boy. Well, I mean, of course the married student became much, much more important for a while there. And the mixture of the veterans and the other ones really didn't matter much, except that veterans always, they didn't enter into as much extracurricular activity as the younger students. But I don't know, I 02:14:00think the house idea stuck with us through the veterans and all. There was not the participation that there were with the younger students. And so I guess, although we never separated, said that this was for veterans and this was for that, there was a tendency for groups to be together for a while. But it didn't last long.

BT: And the younger students were perhaps more cautious.

SLB: They were cautious, and they were following rather than leading quite as much.

SO?: Probably in awe of people that had been through what they had been through.

SLB: Yes, yes. But we never had rough feelings between the groups. Oh, occasionally we did. And some of the veterans needed medical help, too, when 02:15:00they came out of some real rough war experiences. But most of our house fellows after the war were veterans in the men's halls. And they really were fellows like [Telly Ell?] and many of them, well--

BT: Did food service remain pretty much the same after World War Two?

SLB: Yeah.

BT: Did you have the same great cooks that you had before the war, like Carson Gulley and Mrs. Jones?

SLB: Yeah. There was a training course for, like for cooks. And we had, even during the war and then after the war, we had cook trainees and chef trainees. 02:16:00And boy, when they graduated, we had a big party and we'd invite the president of the university sometimes, and favorite professors in there. But I think as far as the difference, the married, we had so many married students, we concentrated heavily on them for a while. But if a veteran was single, why, he went right into the regular halls. And although I think they were more likely to be looking for apartment spaces than they were halls. And so I think we still were predominantly undergraduates.

BT: What about that same question I've asked before about the role of the professor, and how they, did they come around as much as, did the professors come around on the average as much in 1948 as they did in 1932? To eat at the dorms and talk with the students and have teas and those types of things?

SLB: Well, in the women's halls, they certainly did. In the men's halls, probably not quite as much. But they didn't take many years, you know. After they got settled fairly normal, the veterans and the younger men were going along. We were fortunate we didn't have any, oh, I guess, when did the panty raid thing goon once in a while. But that was before.

BT: Why don't you finish your narrative, then I have some questions that are unrelated to anything we've been talking about this far.

SLB: Well, just as a, as I repeat, I'm sure, the philosophy of the department has been more likely outlined by Don Halverson was a keystone of any success. Students really wanted to be treated as young men and young women. We didn't baby them. They were given an atmosphere to develop their thinking of--

SLB: Well, we wanted the students to be treated as young men and young women. And they were given an atmosphere to develop their thinking as young men and 02:19:00women. And the house fellow system, in my estimation, is the greatest. And the smaller house units, and the choice of young men and young women to head up as house fellows, giving them a middle part to play so that they could work with these young kids, was almost unheard of in many universities. But people like Don Halverson, Dr. Bradley, [Howda and Otto Kowalki?], the deans of men and women, really liked the idea of the house, and the participation of students in these operations and so on. I won't go into the philosophy of the house fellow system and the fellow system, but I'm sure Don covered it real well. But I can 02:20:00only say that the friendly atmosphere of the halls made the job directing a real pleasure. I was always called Lee, and it wasn't a formal arrangement here. We didn't have, we had a head resident who got a little out of line, why we talked with her. We want them to be right in with the students. And we had a great group of house fellows.

I retired in '76 and married my dear wife. And I sure miss it, but I emphasized heavily in the years that I served as director was in good management training and instructions of employees and supervisors. And it was important for us to 02:21:00have good leadership, both in the, and good, adequate training for the staff and employees, student supervisor, and the educational staff, first of all, we set up at the training program in the fall of the year. And with the Dean of Men, Dean of Women. And with educational staff, like our head residents, we were determined then to concentrate on the food and housekeeping of supervisors first.

SLB: And then we got a lot of cooperation from the School of Business--training by Russ Marley and Dick Sullivan. What did they call it? The--

BT: Institute for Management. Something.

SLB: Yeah.

BT: Sullivan Hall is named after Dick Sullivan.

SLB: Yes. Yes. I went over to ask them if we could take advantage of their management program. And they said they had never had a university department ask them for help. And they would provide a complete program for all of our top staff people without any charge to us. And we benefited greatly from their courses. And we carried out their training courses for almost all of our 02:23:00employees then. And it was well received, and I'm sure good training is still going on in the division today, but the cooks and bakers school for the navy department was one of the best, I think, in the country, according to the navy. And Mrs. Helen [Geisel?] was a chef. Carson Gulley and Lydia Jones really did a marvelous job with training the navy cooks and bakers. Whenever they had their big graduation, my God, they'd invite the governor down and all of the brass from the [Long Line?].

And I don't know, this has been hit and miss as I go along here, but I certainly enjoyed the years I was at the university. And I think the married student housing was transferred over. They built faculty housing, Eagle Heights. And that part was run by buildings and grounds, and then they turned it over to us.

BT: When was it first run by buildings and grounds?

SLB: I don't know. They planned the whole thing. And then later on, when we got into the married student housing, first it was faculty housing. Then we got in on it. But and Prince Lutz, he was our manager out there for many years, and he 02:25:00was a former house fellow and started out in our staff here. But Newell Smith, I'm sure there will be a lot more data on it than we have.

BT: Well, we already contacted [him.]

SO: Did you find other universities, as you mentioned you were facilitated with more of a national organizations of university housing. Did you find outside universities coming to check our system here, and taking ideas from our system and using them in their own?

SLB: Yes, we had some of that, certainly. But I think that other universities are, well, we stole from each other, I'm sure. Back and forth. And we had, the 02:26:00Big Ten group had really good relations.

BT: Did UW have a reputation as being, in the Big Ten, at least, as being perhaps the top dog in housing? Or one of elite.

SLB: Well, I suppose I shouldn't say so, but I think so. Yes.

BT: I would think with the innovation for the house fellows.

BT: Can I ask you some questions? Do you have any more, Steve?

SO: I'd like to ask one question dealing with people, along with the section you want to do with [Melbury?]. Do you remember a Bob Moser?

SLB: Sure.

BT: Dean, I believe he was in education.

SLB: Yes.

BT: I understand he wrote a thesis dealing with, under Halverson, that might have been used for house fellow instruction?

SLB: We used part of it, yeah. I've got it at home someplace.

SO: Oh, you do?

SLB: I think so.

SO: Was it written here in Madison? We're trying to track it down.

SLB: It was done as a thesis.

SO: As a master's or a PhD?

SLB: Yes. Master's, I think.

SO: Here in Madison.

SLB: Yes.

SO: Oh, well then it will be in the--

BT: Did you check again?

SO: Uh huh. I went through the entire card catalog. It may be taken out or it may be lost or something.

SLB: Bob is, where is he now?

BT: He was in a car accident, I heard, and is now living in Fond du Lac.

SO: I saw his name mentioned in this newsletter. That's why I--

SLB: Here, I got it. Here's our house fellow directories. But where it was, I'd have to go through.

BT: Okay, a couple of questions that are related more to the university as a whole as opposed to housing specifically. Were you a member of a dining club at all?

SLB: Yes.

BT: What dining club was that?

SLB: Well, it was A.W. Peterson, Don Halverson, [Dasher Hobson?], the vice president, John Weaver and his father, Andy Weaver, and Baldwin. There were ten of us.

BT: Were you in it for a fairly long period of time?

SLB: Well, not as long as Don, I'm sure, but I was in it for a long time.

BT: What happened?

SLB: Well, I think most of them were retired, and they didn't take in young people.

BT: No, I mean what did you do at a dining club meeting? What was that like?

SLB: Oh, everything. It was just a good dining, drinking, I think, and storytelling. But then they'd discuss everything. The president of the 02:29:00university, research, and you know, Baldwin was a great research. And, let's see. Oh, and we went on fishing trips up in Trout Lake.

BT: It was kind of like a social intellectual--

SLB: Yeah. It was no real purpose. We would just get together. And also it was, the president of the Madison Gas and Electric Company, what was his name? It wasn't all university people. And the assistant to the governor, what was his name? But it was, when I get home I'll look it up and get the names. I'll send 02:30:00them to you.

BT: Now as a person associated with housing--you and Mr. Halverson--was there any, did you ever feel like your status wasn't equal to the president? Was there ever any differentiation in those areas?

SLB: No, actually we were both on the faculty.

BT: Oh, I didn't know that you were considered faculty.

SLB: Yes, I was associate professor. Don was full professor.

BT: [I was trying to think how it affected the?] university [words unclear--SLB and BT talking simultaneously]

SLB: Well, I think what the business office, why, we were extremely close. And yeah, I went to presidents, like President Fred. I never felt it. Maybe it was there.

BT: No, I'm just wondering if you felt it, that's why I asked. I have no indication that it ever was.

BT: Let's go through the presidents for a second.

SLB: Sure.

BT: What about Glenn Frank?

SLB: Well, he was a great talker. He was a great bullshitter. He was not my favorite. He was certainly not a good administrator, but he was a wonderful talker and he would just talk to me all the time. But he was well thought of as a president, and I guess you'd have to rate him high.

BT: Do you, you say he's not a good the administrative, is that just kind of a general impression--

SLB: My general, yeah.

BT: Or were there any specific--

SLB: Just a general impression.

BT: What about Clarence Dykstra?

SLB: I think he was an excellent administrator. And he wasn't from the standpoint of the faculty ever accepted as well, I don't think.

BT: Did [you have any guess on why?]?

SLB: I think because he was more of a businessperson and an administrator than as a faculty member. His wife was a peach. She was very good. And we always did the catering for them.

BT: Did you do any catering for Glenn Frank's staff? How were you generally treated, received by him?

SLB: Oh, he'd always be nice. She was, I think looked down on everybody. But Glenn Frank was always friendly. He was good as far as the halls were concerned. But I think Dykstra was much more of the businessman. Then E. B. Fred went back to the educational emphasis. But Fred was one of our best friends. And Mrs. Fred 02:33:00was just, what a wonderful person.

BT: E.B. said something that I find very intriguing. He said, E.B. said one time that the educational part, again, by implication, are you saying perhaps that Glenn Frank and Dykstra did not focus on that as much? Or that E.B. Fred--

SLB: I think maybe Glenn Frank did, but I don't think Dykstra did. He was a, much more of an administrator. But no, I think Glenn Frank was, oh, he just loved to talk. And his wife was a problem, I think. As far as I'm concerned,--that thing isn't running, is it?

BT: It is, but that's okay.

SLB: But we did the catering for the Dykstras, for the Franks, for the Freds.

BT: Do you have a favorite E.B. Fred story?

SLB: Well, I'd have to think of it, but I'm sure I do have. Because they lived right straight across from Slichter Hall, you know, there. And man oh man, they ate every Sunday noon meal over at Van Hise Hall, or Carson Gulley, now.

BT: With the students?

SLB: Oh, yes. Yeah. And Glenn, or E.B. Fred would talk with anybody, I don't care who it was. Night watchman or anybody, and students. He was not an administrator, but he was a very good politician. I mean, everybody liked him. He wasn't a great talker, either, I don't think. I think Dykstra perhaps worked 02:35:00with the central governor's office and so on better than any of them, perhaps, in my estimation. And he, if we wanted something and we needed it, boy, he would get it. Glenn Frank was always putting it on the back burner. That was his favorite expression. But he was well liked. He was educated. He was maybe too nice to be president, to tell you the truth. He wasn't the administrator that the other guys were, but maybe better. I don't know. He certainly was well thought of as far as a gentleman. He was--

BT: Were you here when he was dismissed?

SLB: Who was?

BT: Glenn Frank.

SLB: Yeah, sure.

BT: Do you remember that?

SLB: I think--

SO: Board of Regents took a vote in late 1936 and students rallied to his support?

SLB: Yeah, there was a lot of fussing around at that time. But I can't remember it too much.

SLB: I used to wait on table at the Union, catering. And I'd always, I'd oftentimes would get hooked on taking care of the programs where they had business, they didn't want to get out. But I will say this, that here at the Union, the regents were meeting. And I was waiting on them. So I asked them what 02:37:00they would like to drink. And Matt Warner was one of the regents. He said, "Well what have we?"

I said, "We have most everything."

"Well," he says, "how about a beer?"

"Yes, sir," I said. And I went around the table. And I think there were seven, six, that wanted beer. And Miss Waters, Elizabeth Waters didn't, of course. And the president didn't.

And so Warner says, "Gentlemen," he says, "I assume we can count this as a vote on the beer in the Union." [laughter]

I ran downstairs and got, Don was in the grill, Georgian Grill, eating lunch. 02:38:00And I told him. I'd say "Get some beer" and Chuck Dollard was with him. He ran down State Street, bought the beer and [I served it?] [laughs]. And so that was a vote. And the doggone, the reporters were always after news from the regents. They had to be careful of anything at all. I didn't tell them, but they finally found out there was beer at the Union.

BT: That's the first time, right? That started it. That started the tradition.

SLB: Yeah, yeah. So I hadn't thought of it till-- but Matt Werner, I didn't recall any big scandal about him. But maybe I'm forgetting things.

BT: I think I've asked every [part I need to?]

SO: Is there anybody that comes to mind who when you were director, who was particularly helpful, like either in the faculty or especially the regents? Any regents that you found were backing housing, so that I might go to them, their papers or something. Anybody who was always asked you what you needed? Any of the regents that was particularly on your side?

SLB: No. I'd have to go back. Dykstra was a great help, always, in anything you needed. He was a good administrator. Dr. Fred was very helpful, but it took him 02:40:00forever to make up his mind as to what we were going to do and what not. Glenn Frank was not one of my favorites as far as administrators were concerned. I think Leroy Newberg was a good help. He was not, he was secretary. He's dead now, though, isn't he?

BT: Yeah. We have a great interview with him, though. A long one. You ought to take a look at that. That might have some stuff in it, some materials.

SLB: He was a very nice fellow, and his wife was, too. So, I don't know. The regents were always fair with us. I never had an awful lot of stuff. It mostly went through W. Peterson, then to another person.

BT: [And then to another person. You say, W. Peterson?]

SLB: Yeah. He was a great guy. He was tremendous.

BT: Do you, Mr. Burns, do you have any closing statements you'd like to make?

SLB: Well, I sure love the University of Wisconsin, and it's been good to me. We worked hard, but we played hard. And I have a great deal of fondness for the housing organization. And I think I would put it up against any of the Big Ten schools. And I remember Al was calling from Indiana wanting to know about how the hell do you get along with this navy group? I said, "There's nothing to it. Do what you say, and what you want to do." But they had a lot of trouble at 02:42:00times. We had the Big Ten group. And we got together here and there. And then formed the Association of College and University Housing Officers. And that helped. But I don't know. I think, I hope the doors will continue on as they have been going. And I know under Newell we had some wonderful help. Now the new director, I haven't met. I hope to stop in and see him sometime. But I hope they continue on with, and I may say this, that we had wonderful help from the 02:43:00faculty. I mean, they, kids having trouble or anything like that, sometimes they'd call up and then we could work through a house fellow and the house organization, and straighten them out.

BT: So a faculty member might perceive a problem and call you.

SLB: Oh, yes.

BT: And then you would work it out through the hospital.

SLB: And their student government has been very, the MHA was, Men's Housing Association, was, well, they run the store. It was good training for them. We could always turn to them, and we did. And we worked closely with the students. And then the house fellow group, they just (seem?) in order to--

BT: --eleventh, 1984. I'm with Mr. Lee Burns, who is here for his class reunion, fiftieth reunion of the class of 1934. I've interviewed Mr. Burns previously about his experiences in residence halls where he was director of residence halls in the late '40s and early '50s. Is that right?

SLB: Right.

BT: And today we're going to restrict our questioning to his undergraduate days at UW. What years did you attend UW?

SLB: I came here in 1930. In 1930 to '34. And then I stayed on, on a staff level, until I retired. That was in 1968, '69.

BT: So your stay at UW extended to almost forty years.

SLB: Close to it. Close to it.

BT: When and where did you graduate from high school?

SLB: In Minnesota. Chisago Lakes High School. That's just on the border of Wisconsin on the Mississippi River. It's a Swedish community up there.

BT: What's the name of it?

SLB: It's Chisago Lakes. And it's in Lindstrom, Minnesota.

BT: Okay. Talk about your decision to attend Wisconsin.

SLB: Well, some way or other, I had always wanted to go to Wisconsin or Minnesota at that university level. I started out and spent one year at a private school, and I was very unhappy there. And then I bummed around for a couple of years, worked out West, Glacier Park summers. And, but it was Wisconsin if I could make it. And unfortunately, I could make it by taking fishing a couple people on the faculty here out at Glacier Park, trout fishing. And had an offer to come to Wisconsin. I had worked a great deal in the dining rooms in Glacier Park, and then fishing guide, off times.

And so Don Halverson and Dr. Antonius were out there, and they saw me at work, I guess, and asked me to stop in and see them, and we did. And I came to Wisconsin. They put me to work immediately at the Union building. And I became the student supervisor in the, for the catering functions. Dr. Hugo Baum was their first one in the Union, and I followed him.

BT: Well, we'll get into the work part of it in just a little bit. So you were more or less recruited for the university by Mr. Halverson, in a way. Had you considered any other colleges besides Wisconsin?

SLB: Or Minnesota.

BT: Or Minnesota.

SLB: Yeah.

BT: What was the reputation of Wisconsin, as you traveled around the country and in your own mind?

SLB: Oh, it was great. My pal out Glacier Park, and we bummed around most of the West coast, had always talked about Wisconsin. He never did get here, but I did. And Wisconsin always had a high reputation. Of course I grew up in Minnesota, but it was on the Wisconsin line, ten miles. And we had our summer home in Wisconsin.

BT: Did you have a career goal in mind when you came to Wisconsin?

SLB: Not particularly. But my folks insisted that all of our family go to college. And just what I was going to do, I didn't know, but I took a business course. And I enjoyed every course I ever took.

BT: Were your parents college educated?

SLB: No. Neither of them. No.

BT: But they had a love for--

SLB: They certainly did.

BT: What about your community? How was higher education viewed there?

SLB: Well, it was quite common for most of the graduates of the high school to go to college. But most of them were going to smaller and religious backed colleges.

BT: Had you ever visited UW before?

SLB: No. That was the first time. I'd driven through it, that's all.

BT: Describe orientation. Do you remember it at all?

SLB: Gosh, I went to work at the Union the day I came. And I don't think I went to orientation.

BT: So your work at the Union was your orientation.

SLB: That was it.

BT: Did you have an advisor? Who helped you select courses for the first semester?

SLB: Oh, boy. He was, it was in the economics department. And I was looking at the business there. He was a young man. I cannot remember. But he spent quite a bit of time talking over the courses and the classes. But I was looking for a room and got one over in Johnson Street, and was there, I think, for half a year. And then I moved again, and we got into an apartment out on Orchard Street. And we had a good time, but we worked darn hard.

BT: Now did you declare economics as a possible major before you came?

SLB: I was business or economics.

BT: So they matched you up, then, with [what you declared?]

SLB: Yes.

BT: Had you secured housing before you'd come to Madison?

SLB: No.

BT: How did you go about that? Did you just look in the paper, or start walking around?

SLB: Yeah, well, Don Halverson, I stayed there for the first week, at his apartment. That was out in Johnson's Creek. And then found a fairly suitable place. I think I must have paid about three dollars a week at that time.

BT: I hope undergraduates today don't hear this tape. They'll fall over. You said "we" moved to a place on Orchard Street. Who did you room with?

SLB: Gosh, the first year? No, I didn't room with anybody. But later on, we had the apartment back.

BT: Okay. Let's see, in your courses in your freshman and sophomore year, you were enrolled in L&S then.

SLB: Yes.

BT: Were they mainly lecture, mainly discussion?

SLB: They were some of both. I remember Kiekhofer's lectures, of course. And he was a great guy. I met him out in Glacier Park.

BT: Oh, you had met him?

SLB: Yeah. So we had something in common. He loved it out there. But no, I can't say.

BT: Did, in your lectures, who handled discussion sections? Graduate students or professors?

SLB: There were some graduate students and some professors. But in the commerce school, they did a good job with the smaller group meetings. Then we'd have the lectures, of course. I still remember the sky rockets for Kiekhofer always.

BT: How often did Kiekhofer get sky rockets?

SLB: Oh, every time.

BT: Was that unusual for professors to get them every time?

SLB: I think so. I think so. He was a great guy.

BT: When did most professors normally get sky rockets?

SLB: Oh, at the end of the year.

BT: So it was usually maybe one or two times a semester, rather than--

SLB: Yeah.

BT: Whereas in Kiekhofer's situation it was every day. Were classes all coeducational?

SLB: Yes.

BT: What about the business school? Were there many women enrolled?

SLB: No, but there were some.

BT: How did students, male students, dress for class generally?

SLB: Well, it was very casual. It was not a dressy affair. But there were no overalls, or anything like that.

BT: What about coats and ties? Were they common?

SLB: No, they weren't common. It's usually sports shirts and sweaters and slacks.

BT: What about women?

SLB: Well, they always looked nice to me. [laughter]

BT: Were slacks worn?

SLB: No, not much. Not much.

BT: How about professors? How did they usually dress?

SLB: Very nicely. And most of them, a couple of them with their sleeves rolled up like they were going to work. But generally speaking, the professors and instructors were well dressed, I think.

BT: In terms of students, did many students cut classes? Do you know?

SLB: Well, I couldn't tell you. I'd have to do it once in a while, when we'd have large affairs at the Union, but not many.

BT: Did professors take attendance?

SLB: Most of them did. Some didn't, for the lecture--

BT: What happened if you cut a class and attendance was taken?

SLB: I don't think there was anything, unless you got behind. They'd call you in, want to see you after class.

BT: Do you remember discipline every being a problem in class?

SLB: No.

BT: What about plagiarism? Was that ever an issue on campus or in any of your classes?

SLB: No.

BT: What was your favorite class within your area of specialization?

SLB: Well, it's a hard question. But I think actual business classes I was more interested in than theoretical classes. And I enjoyed accounting and golly, I can't even think of all the various classes.

BT: So there's no one that really stands out in your mind?

SLB: No. I was not good in French, that I know.

BT: So that's on the other side.

SLB: That's on the other side.

BT: Did you ever go to French House?

SLB: Oh, yes. A couple of times.

BT: In what context?

SLB: Just for dinner, invited over there. But no, I had many friends who attended, and Don Halverson actually started the first French House, I think. And he was instrumentally in it through many years, I think on the board or something. But French was a tough one for me, coming from a Scandinavian background.

BT: Didn't they have Scandinavian Studies at that point?

SLB: I think so. But I didn't want any of that, either.

BT: What about your favorite class outside of your area of specialization?

SLB: Oh, gosh, now you--

BT: You've mentioned Kiekhofer.

SLB: Oh, yes. Economics, I like that. And Kiekhofer.

BT: What kind of a teacher was he? A lecturer.

SLB: Lecturer, wonderful. I think he was one of the best. And he always had a bit of humor in his talks. And I think Kiekhofer was a, well, as I shall say, I think he was the best I had.

BT: Did you ever, of course you did, but how famous was Kiekhofer's wall?

SLB: Oh, it created a little excitement from time to time, to see who painted it up. I never got in on any painting.

BT: I was going to ask you if you had ever contributed to Kiekhofer's wall.

SLB: No, no, I never did.

BT: What was mainly written on it?

SLB: It was slogans and it was fraternities and then for any big activity, why, for prom and stuff like that, they'd have big advertising or such as it was. But it was fun, and we all enjoyed it.

BT: Where was it? It was on--

SLB: Golly, it was down--

BT: Gorham?

SLB: It was down in that area.

BT: Was it by his house?

SLB: No. I think he lived out farther.

BT: Why was it called Kiekhofer's wall?

SLB: I think he owned that property.

BT: Let's see. Your professors, were they fairly accessible outside of the classroom?

SLB: I think so. I really think all of the professors that I had were willing to have you stop in, talk. They always would recognize you at the Union. Of course I was around there most of the time, you know, and tried to give them a good table. Or good service. But no, I enjoyed the faculty.

BT: Did you have access in office hours? Did they have office hours that they kept to?

SLB: They had, yes, they had.

BT: Was there much socializing between faculty and students?

SLB: Well, for any parties or anything like that, they would invite faculty members, certain faculty members, to so call be their sponsors.

BT: Did you have to have sponsors for parties?

SLB: No, I don't. It was generally, though. It was a tradition, I think, it seemed to me it was. For all the parties at the Union, there would always be a couple of faculty members.

BT: And there were chaperones?

SLB: So called. Yeah. Yeah.

BT: Or

SLB: Yeah.

BT: In the stricter, the looser sense of the word. Let's see. Did you ever have any contact with professors outside of the Union and non academic situations?

SLB: Well, yes. Professor Weaver, I never took anything from him, but I was out to his place quite a few times. John, later on. I took him fishing out at Glacier Park.

BT: Who, Weaver?

SLB: John, John Weaver. And so when I got back here in the fall, we'd always get together. The Weavers were wonderful.

BT: Tell me a little bit about Andrew Weaver.

SLB: He had a good sense of humor, and he of course was a fluent talker. But, and he loved stories, and he had a marvelous memory. He could keep track of people. I mean, know who they were. And I think that he perhaps, and John was very much like him. And so they were real good friends, I think, of the university.

BT: Was there any particular professor, and we talked about classes before, but now let's talk about professors. Were there any particular professors who influenced you significantly in your undergraduate days?

SLB: Well, Don Halverson was a professor, as such.

BT: Did he teach?

SLB: He had taught French.

BT: Was he teaching while you were an undergraduate?

SLB: No, he wasn't. And Porter Butts, of course, was also on the faculty, and was a good friend. Chuck Dollard.

SLB: But again, I didn't have a great social life. I worked, because it was day and night sometimes.

BT: So you're talking, let's go to the Union for a minute. Because it sounds like, I talked to Mr., a few of the gentlemen yesterday, one who was managing editor of The Cardinal. It sounded as if his life, and he had said it did, The Cardinal was the central focus of his life while he was here at the university. Was that similar to you at the Union?

SLB: I think so, because I worked there pretty near every day, and weekends. It was, I'm sure I spent most of my, when I wasn't in class at the Union. And I had a little office, and so I could do some studying there, too.

BT: Let's talk, you started out at catering. Let's go through your career. You said you replaced a Dr. --

SLB: Hugo Baum.

BT: Hugo Baum.

SLB: Yeah. He was in his last year.

BT: He was a student.

SLB: He was a student in medical. And he's in Chicago now. And he's semi-retired, and he's still doing very, very well. But he was the first what we called head waiters. And I followed him. And this was essentially in catering for all parties and for Tripp Commons, which was open on weekends. And we had a very nice, and also the Georgian Grill, of course. And we had, on weekends, Saturdays and Sundays, dinner at the Tripp Commons with music trio played there. And we had a big, big business.

BT: What was your responsibility, particularly as head waiter?

SLB: Well, it was mostly training them and assigning them.

BT: Training the waiters?

SLB: Training the waiters. And there were some, we had some waitresses in the Georgian Grill who were all girls. And some of the girls waited on table in the smaller rooms. But more they worked in the serving areas. But I would have to arrange the numbers for each day, have the waiters and train them and call them at night. Or they'd call me, looking for work. And I worked under the dietitian. Miss Olson was one of the first there. And then later on, Miss, oh, there's my memory again.

BT: She was your supervisor? Immediate supervisor?

SLB: Yeah, my immediate supervisor.

BT: Dietician.

SLB: Dietician.

BT: Was there any problem or any resentment with you getting that job as an incoming student [from any person?]

SLB: I never heard anything, no. Not at all. Because Hugo Baum was there, and he was in his last year. In fact, he was there only about a semester when he left. And I don't know if there was resentment.

BT: I'm not trying to manufacture it. I was just wondering.

SLB: No, I didn't hear it.

BT: Did you get trained by anyone in this position?

SLB: Well, I was at Glacier Park, and then in the dining room there.

BT: Right. At Madison, was there anyone?

SLB: No, except when I took over, I worked with Miss Olson, at the time, Mrs. Thomas. And we'd decide how many people we needed, and it was up to me to get them and work with them, and we had instructions. Then for the big parties, like Prom. and Mil. Ball, we worked all night long. I worked all night long. And it, they were exciting times. We had to be a little careful about liquor, you know. And get a bottle or two to toss away. But in general, it was a lot of fun, a lot of excitement. We didn't leave work sometimes until five o'clock in the morning, to get everything back the way it should be. So there was never a dull moment while I was in school, because I just would try to do a little studying once in a while. But I loved it, and it was good. It was real good. And you got to know every faculty member, I think, practically.

And the personnel at the Union was very, very good. Porter was a great help. Chuck Ballard was a great help.

BT: How long did you have this job as head caterer?

SLB: Head waiter.

BT: Head waiter, yeah.

SLB: Four years

BT: Oh, you had that job for your entire four years? Oh, okay.

SLB: Three and a half, really.

BT: Tell me a little about Mr. [Dollard?]

SLB: Chuck was a very fine guy, and was a lot of fun. I don't know if you want this in the, in your book or not, but we were, I was on the side of students to get beer in the Union. And of course that had been tossed around back and forth, back and forth. And regents, it had come to the Regents requesting that we have beer at the Union. So when the regents were there, I tried to pick out somebody who would keep their mouth shut about their business because they always did business at the meal hour. And if I could, I'd wait on them, too. And so I was waiting on the Board of Regents in the Beefeaters Room, and they were talking about the beer question. And so I went around to, we had served them, then I went around to find out what they wanted to, for a beverage. And they, one gentleman, a fellow from, oh, boy, my memory, from Portage, says, "Well, what do you have?"

And I said, "We have coffee, tea, milk, beer." [laughs]

And he said, "I'll have a bottle of beer." And I went around the table, and seven of them ordered beer.

BT: As they were debating the issue of whether--

SLB: That's right. And I ran down and I ran into Chuck Dollard. And I said, "Chuck, for God's sake, find Don and see if you can't get me some beer." And they ran down to State Street and came back with eight bottles of 3.2 beer. I served beer there, and the chairman said, "Well, gentlemen," and then he looked at--

BT: Gail.

SLB: Gail was on there. "And Madame," he says, "I believe this is our vote on beer at the Union." So we got beer. And it really was no trouble.

BT: How long was this after Prohibition ended? Do you remember?

SLB: Well, no. It must have been a year or two.

BT: So it was pretty soon after.

SLB: Yes, yes, oh, yes.

BT: 1934, 35.

SLB: When they permitted beer, Fauerbach started selling beer. And my goodness, we were down there that night buying--a hundred kids. [laughs]

BT: Oh, really?

SLB: Yeah.

BT: Oh, tell me about that.

SLB: Oh, that was great.

BT: Where was Fauerbach's located?

SLB: Oh, way down across Washington Avenue down there.

BT: Were they the first ones to get beer?

SLB: Well, they were the first ones in this area. Yeah, that was--

BT: [words unclear--BT and SLB talking simultaneously]

SLB: Yeah. They had a, I don't know if they had the best beer. But we brought home a small keg of it, I know. I was living then in an apartment with three other fellows. And it was good.

BT: [laughs] You said there was quite a number of people at Fauerbach's that night?

SLB: Oh, it was just jammed. It was just like a football rally. And the noise, the hollering.

BT: That's wonderful.

SLB: Yeah, that was great. And really, as far as beer at the Union, I don't think we had any serious trouble on it at all. It was 3.2. And it was much better than having the kids driving out to these joints on the edge of town where they could buy beer and hard liquor sometimes, too. Same way in the dorms. Because Don Halverson, you see, was also director of residence halls. So I followed him when I graduated, and was director of residence halls for six, seven years, I guess it was. And he, we had beer at the parties. But again, we'd always have some mature individual who was around and it was no big problem.

BT: Did you ever have legislators or townsfolk or newspapers or anything talk about, oppose what you did?

SLB: Well, you must know that the newspapers were in on it, too. Yes. Oh, yeah. We were criticized by certain people. I don't think the newspapers were particularly tough on us. But Cap Times always had its last say, you know. But it was, those were exciting days around the university. But it's always that way, isn't it?

BT: Yes.

SLB: I hope so.

BT: Yeah, that's one thing that's never changed.

When you worked at the Union, what did you start making, start at, in terms of hourly wage?

SLB: Well, I was, I had a job that really took an awful lot of time. And I think I got a hundred dollars a month on my meals. And I was sitting pretty. I couldn't have gone. And then, from Glacier Park, I also made good money out there. But I think the scale when I came was thirty-five cents. No, it was thirty, I think, the first year, and then got thirty-five cents. And then also for, we had an employees' dining room. And instead of the thirty-five cents, they could have their meal. So some ate, and some got their thirty or thirty-five cents an hour. And at that time, I suppose it would be roughly like a dollar, dollar and a half an hour now. It wasn't high wages, that's for sure. But of course things weren't that costly.

But we had an awful lot of students who were looking for work. I was pestered constantly for that. They would have to go to the personnel manager. And he or she would interview them, you know, and we'd try them out. But we had good, hardworking kids, and some of my best friends.

BT: Who was the cook at the Union?

SLB: Well, the chef was a man, and he was pretty good. But he had trouble with the bottle. I won't name him. But eventually they fired him. And who did we get but the chef from Many Glaciers Hotel, which I think had been in the back of Don Halverson's mind when he got me. Because she was a close friend of--

BT: Is that Mrs. Jones?

SLB: Yes.

BT: Tell me a little bit about Mrs. Jones.

SLB: Well, Casey Jones, as we knew her, was a wonderful cook and wonderful manager. She was, she could get quite hot under the, if somebody wasn't performing or doing the right thing, she really would go after them. But she had a good reputation. She did a marvelous job at Glacier Park, and I think she did a marvelous job here. And it was tough here because she came from the Twin City area, and she knew no one here. So for a few years she had troubles getting adjusted to it. But she was an excellent cook.

BT: How long did she stay on at the Union?

SLB: Well, she stayed till she retired. She must have been here about fifteen years. Twelve, fifteen years. Then our pastry cooks in the Union was well known for its pastry. Millie and Celia. There were two, shall I say, old maids. And they really could put out the best pastry I think I ever ate.

BT: What were their last names?

SLB: Well, one was Celia Ganzer, and Millie Lamberty, I think.

BT: What kind of pastries did they make?

SLB: Well, they were especially good at cakes. Yeah, I mean, pies. And oh, their apple pies and their certain cakes were just favorite. And people would always, for catering, they had special things, and the gals would just love it. So I think the Union served excellent food, excellent meals. And sure, we'd have trouble with this and that once in a while. But the Georgian Grill and Tripp Commons, which we kept open on weekends, was one of the nicer places to eat in Madison. And we had a lot of outside people, too.

BT: What was it like being an employee at the Union? What were the working conditions? What was the atmosphere there? I don't want to get into [working relations?] How did it work [words unclear--BT and SLB talking simultaneously]

SLB: No, I think the group I worked with certainly were all enthusiastic, happy. They seemed to enjoy it. I suppose when you'd have to let somebody go who was not doing the job, it would be a little on the owley side and what not. But I think most of my friends were kids that worked in the Union. And through the years, I get to see them once in a while and visit them, or vice versa. And I think the student employee group was marvelous. Sure we had some [bolder students?]

BT: Now who hired the students? You?

SLB: Well, no, no, no. We had the personnel officer who would interview them and have them give me a list of we needed three or four more. And my boss the first year was Miss Olson, later Mrs. Thomas. And we'd get together how many people we'd need for the weekend. And I'd call them at night, and boy, and a lot of them would come in at noon, just want to know anything for the night, or something like that. And those were tough years, you know. We, two bits was a lot of money, and they were happy with it. And we used girls, mostly, in the, well, in, talking just about the Union, in the Georgian Grill. And some in catering. But not as much, because the weights over there, trays and the dishes and what not, it was more practical, although we had some in the serveries, they were excellent at making salads and things like that, better than most of the fellows. But, and in the later on, as you know, Don Halverson was also director of residence halls. And I followed him there. There we used girls in the women's halls a great deal. And some in the men's halls. For catering, actually, the dishes that we had at that time were darn heavy. And it wasn't easy for a girl to handle big banquets.

BT: So you more or less hired people according to who you thought was capable of most effectively going down to--

SLB: That's right. That's right. Yes. But I must say this for catering, it was, the majority were boys, except in the serveries.

BT: We haven't talked about Porter Butts. Tell me a little bit about him.

SLB: Well, Porter had ideas. He was, and he did most of the background and the programming work at the Union, and he did a good job. And he, I think from a financial standpoint, why, Don Halverson, and the food has to be given credit, largely for that. Although Porter had his budget for the programming and what not. And there wasn't any, any large arguments. Sure, we'd argue about this and that. Big prom night, Porter would be there in his dress clothes. And for all those things, he'd be around. And if Don was there, he'd be in his work clothes and work with us and Don. [laughs] Oh, we used to work after Mil. Ball and Prom. All night long. [knocking, pause]

Porter was the program and the whole Union program was really his love and his life. And he did a marvelous job on that. He was good to work for. He had his ideas, and they were good ones. And he was around a great deal, I think, for somebody to roll up his sleeves and go to work at putting Union back in shape after Mil. Ball or something like that, I think Don Halverson was the one that was around.

BT: Now you said that you'd often be working till four or five in the morning afterwards. Was Halverson involved later?

SLB: Oh, sometimes he was. And he'd be out there quite late, I tell you. But we'd have a good time, too, you know. Then we'd play softball when it got late enough over here. And then the neighbors, you know, over on State Street complained about making too much noise.

BT: You'd play softball after you finished--

SLB: After we finished cleaning up.

BT: You obviously didn't have much leisure time.

SLB: No, very little.

BT: What about sports? What role did sports play in your experience?

SLB: Well, not much, because I'm not particularly good athletic, athlete.

BT: What about spectator sports?

SLB: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I'd get to pretty near every football game and what not, but I'd have to leave early and be back. And football weekends were busy, busy, times for us. Same way. But the training, the training tables we had at the Union. So I got to know the athletes real well. And I got into the football, basketball, free of charge.

BT: Oh, you did.

SLB: Yeah. Because we'd take care of them. And they were, it was a big, big business. And the training tables were a lot of fun.

BT: Did you ever go to any pep rallies, or anything?

SLB: Well, occasionally. But usually it was, I had to study once in a while. But of course. I did.

BT: [Had to be a?] student.

SLB: Well then I moved into the Union later on. And then, of course, you'd have to be around all hours of the night. And I'd be on call for this or that. So it was sort of my home until after I graduated, and then I moved out to Orchard Street again. Johnny Walls was my roommate there for a while, or in the apartment. And the Antoniuses, and we had a lot of fun.

BT: Did you ever go to any other spectator sports?

SLB: Oh, I'd go to a concert once in a while, but I'm not particularly musical. But we'd go to parties, dances, what not.

SLB: And then when I became, when Don became the assistant vice president for money affairs, then I moved over and became director of residence halls. And those were very happy days, too. I tell you that the house fellow group, which is one of the great groups on the campus at that time, and I think it still is. And the faculty committee there, Dr. Bradley, Otto [Kowalki?], and Don--

BT: Tell me a little about the faculty group's involvement in [that?] at the time.

SLB: They interviewed, first of all, for house fellows.

BT: The faculty group.

SLB: The faculty group.

BT: They'd interview the candidates.

SLB: They'd interview the candidates. They were screened first by a house fellow, present house fellow group, that they'd have a committee, and they interviewed the candidates. And then they'd pass them on to the faculty committee, and they'd make the final vet. And final decisions. And this included the dean of men, dean of women, and the other people that were on the committees, Otto [Kowalki?], oh, boy.

BT: [words unclear--speaking simultaneously]

SLB: Yeah, yeah.

BT: How long did that continue, that practice?

SLB: I think it still is. I believe so.

BT: That was a long term thing.

SLB: Oh, yeah.

BT: It started when the house fellows started?

SLB: Yes.

BT: It's been the policy.

SLB: Yes.

BT: I have so many questions, and I only have about an. [--hang on, let me turn this thing over?]

BT: Ask you--

SLB: Sure.

BT: --three or four more questions in areas I'm interested in. How was your education financed?

SLB: Mine?

BT: Mm hmm.

SLB: By work.

BT: By work. By you.

SLB: Sure.

BT: Not by your parents.

SLB: No. No.

BT: Did you ever take out any loans or win any scholarships or anything?

SLB: No.

BT: So it was all from your work, essentially.

SLB: Yep.

BT: What role did religion play in your campus life?

SLB: Well, I was a member of Luther Memorial Church, and I later on was on the council over there. But you know, in my job, I didn't have much time to do anything. It's really a seven day a week affair. Many times we worked all day Sunday.

BT: Let's see. What about your involvements in student clubs and organizations? Anything like that?

SLB: Not a great deal, no. I just didn't have the time.

BT: Comment on The Cardinal, if you will.

SLB: Oh, I think it's a lot of fun.

BT: Did you read it regularly?

SLB: Oh, sure. We had to read the headlines, anyhow. We'd find out what was wrong, and if we could do anything.

BT: Was that your main source of--

SLB: No. I think our main source, no, after, when I was with residence halls, it was the house fellows. They are great. That was a great organization, still are.

BT: What about your source of news during your student undergraduate days? Local and national news. Would The Cardinal be your--

SLB: Oh, no. Local newspaper, too.

BT: Discuss Dean Goodnight, if you will.

SLB: Dean Goodnight was, in my opinion, a fine guy. Great guy. He got into some rather difficult times. But now he, he was on the faculty committee. And gee, even when I was a student, why he went hunting with us and take two or three people hunting. And at least, I liked him. He was very outspoken. But he was fair. I think in his way, he was fair. There was mixed opinions, of course. Some people didn't like him at all.

BT: Why would they not like him?

SLB: Well, mostly he would get into some of their activities or what not, you know. And have to discipline him some. But I think Scott Goodnight was good for the university. He was on the faculty committee, as was the dean of women. And although they didn't always see eye to eye, they got along pretty well.

BT: Now I'm hopefully going to be interviewing Mr. Butts within the next week or two, so I think I'm going to get, I'm sure, into extended discussion of the following area. But I just want your opinion on this. How did Memorial Union relate to, as an institution and individuals within an institution, relate to the State Street and the State Street merchants?

SLB: Well there was some real problem. They felt that it was unfair competition, you know.

BT: The State Street people.

SLB: State Street people. And they had an investigation. And, oh, what was the assemblyman's name, it was not a very good friend of the university, and they really went to town on it. Well, they didn't get to first base. There was nothing serious. There was a lot of newspaper talk or what not.

BT: The investigation was about unfair pricing?

SLB: Unfair pricing, and beer at the Union, and oh, it was mostly unfair. [Shorty Levinek?] over in [Shorty's Dugout?] over here. He was one of the main instigators, too. There was, I went up to a couple of the hearings. But it was mostly--

BT: Where were the hearings held?

SLB: In the state Capitol. Yeah. Porter Butts was interviewed. Don Halverson was interviewed. Thank God I wasn't. No, I was in school.

BT: What were, were there any arguments like is the university overstepping its bounds on this? Was that the main argument?

SLB: Yes, I think so.

BT: What is the function of the university?

SLB: That's right. And certainly beer at the Union was one that came out.

BT: When was this investigation happening?

SLB: I can't tell you the dates. I would say it was in the '30s.

BT: I can find that out.

SLB: Early '30s. Late '20s.

BT: Well, I'm not even going to ask you the last question, which is what were your career goals when you graduated from UW and did you achieve these because I know what the answer is going to be, and I know it's going to be a resounding yes. And you can correct me if I'm wrong.

SLB: Yes, that's true. I enjoyed university work very much, and the atmosphere here. And when Don was promoted, he recommended me for the directorship. And it was wonderful. I enjoyed it. Now we did a lot of building, so my job changed a great deal. Working with the architect and the purchasing department and consulting there and laying out kitchens and dining rooms and all of this. It was a very, very busy time when we built. The Kronshage units were the first ones, and Slichter Hall, then Elm Drive. And then the southeast area, the high rises, and [Elizabeth then?] and Barnard and Chadbourne Hall.

SLB: But I think the most important thing that I ever did in my life was during the war. And after the war. And during the war.

BT: What's that?

SLB: In housing the army and navy. And then taking care of the people when they came back, the veterans. And we had, I think, about four thousand trailers that we hauled in here. We took over Badger Village. And we took over, we took over the hospital area, Truax Field. And I think we got seventy-six buses that we were running at one time, taking people from there. We had trailers, we had trailers out on Camp Randall, in that beautiful area just this side of the stadium. And we really, I think, did a marvelous job. But that was work, and that was night and day work.

BT: Yeah. If there's one legacy that's going to go down for housing, I think it's going to be that post World War Two portion.

SLB: Yeah. It was wild.

BT: Yeah. I remember.

SLB: But it was fun. And sure, we had troubles. But I will say this. The students, if you got a group of students and talked with them, they made more sense than an awful lot of other people.

BT: It might still be true today.

SLB: I think so, too.

BT: Well, Mr. Burns, you gave us, as I said, an excellent interview last year on your role in housing. So what you have just briefly mentioned here, I'm sure, is detailed in our other tapes--

SLB: Yes.

BT: I think we got details last year. And I wanted to thank you for your observations. I think the comment on Fauerbach, after Prohibition, is worth the price of admission alone on this one. But your other observations on your undergraduate days here, between 1930 and '34, right? Okay. This is Barry Teicher, UW History Project. Again, May 11, 1984.