Interview with Roger Allan Cleaves

Sophia Abrams 0:01

Okay, it's recording. All right. Wait, wait, can you wait? Can you try talking? Yes. Okay, great. Yeah. All right. Hello, this is Sophia Abrams interviewing Roger Allan Cleaves for the UW Black Artists Project. Today is Thursday, December 17. It is approximately 10:13am when we're starting this interview. And alright if you could just say your name and spell it out for us, please.

Roger Allan Cleaves 0:38

My name is Roger Allan Cleaves, R-O-G-E-R A-L-L-A-N C-L-E-A-V-E-S.

Sophia Abrams 0:47

Great. All right. So the first question I want to ask you is when did you discover art?

Roger Allan Cleaves 0:58

I've always have kind of drawn throughout like grade school, I just fill out like my notes with like little doodles on the side, I actually used to get in trouble for it for not like paying attention in class. But what I -- what the teachers didn't know or understand was it well, like kind of like drawing and listening to them, like actually helped me stay in tune to what they were actually saying. So I guess in about grade school.

Sophia Abrams 1:25

And then from that, you decided to continue to pursue it. So what factors made you decide to study it during your undergrad?

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:36

It actually took me a long time to get to art. When I started undergrad, I was in like a Poli Sci major. And in half economics, and when I -- I took I had to fill up my electives in college. So I took an art class and I took a drawing class and kind of just discovered that I did like -- I was really talented with it, because without any like formal training, I was still like, probably ahead of the curve of some of my classmates who had been studying art for most of their grade school careers.

Sophia Abrams 2:13

And then what was the final push that made you decide to pursue a BFA in art at the University of Memphis?

Roger Allan Cleaves 2:24

What, Well, I -- my undergraduate started with, when I was at University of Tennessee, Chattanooga, and I wasn't like when I took that first drawing class there. I knew I was like, kind of in love with it. But I wasn't really in love with the program, and it it seemed to -- I don't know, like, it was kind of tight, where everything was like, all the art was made off of like hand sheets and assignments like that. And I didn't want I didn't want that kind of structure, because that's what I think that structure was like my initial fear of pursuing it in the first place. I didn't want to be like, boxed in by a professor. So I had a discussion with Beth Edwards at University of Memphis, I 00:03:00told her I was like, really interested in the program. And I kind of liked her vibe. I kind of liked our work it was, she painted these like toy creations back then. And I knew I kind of wanted to be around that. Where are the teachers? Like, were actually having fun with their work. And it wasn't like this rigorous New York kind of institution.

Sophia Abrams 3:29

Um, so then once you really decide to study art, then you -- in 2006 are a student at Yale University's Yale Norfolk Summer School of Arts. So could you explain to us about what that experience meant to you?

Roger Allan Cleaves 3:50

Well, it was, really, I think that was like one of the really important things that happened to me in undergrad, University of Memphis brought in {Hilary Harkness} from I guess, she she's, like, super famous in the art world, she used to be with {Mary Boone} Gallery. And she came down for like, and just did critiques and she just kind of fell in love with what I was doing, and insisted that I like apply for Yale Norfolk Summer School of Arts and I thought it was, I thought was a long shot. So but I went ahead and did it I -- it's the first time we're had like, take my word to actual photographer and get it, get it made in the slides. And you know, I really wasn't expecting much I just like continuing to work hard throughout the process. And all of a sudden, I like get this letter in the mail from Yale. And you know, like, if you've ever done anything with art, you know, like right away if it's good or bad by just the the weight of the letter, and inside a letter, like once I opened it, I like couldn't believe there like inviting me down. So and but the experience there was really, really strenuous. I think like all of us were like, pretty much up for 12, 14 hours, like making art as much as we could. It's kind of like art bootcamp. But we had fun too.

Sophia Abrams 5:08

Oh, could you elaborate a little bit on the experience being strenuous?

Roger Allan Cleaves 5:14

Well, it was just tense, like, they were bringing in all these famous artists from around the world. And we do critiques with them. And I guess they were kind of trying to set it up as the {Yale Pit-Style} critiques where there's always like this big audience, and you're kind of just like sitting out there with the, with the guest critic, and they're asking you like really tough questions about your work. And it was almost like they were, you almost felt like you were interviewing for a job almost like if they were trying to like, fill you out to see if you wanted to be a part of their program. So it was, I guess, like, there was always like this, like heavy competition between all of the students there.

Sophia Abrams 5:54

Um, from that, I know that you mentioned {Hilary Harkness,} as a professor who 00:06:00was notable and influenced you. Were there any other notable professors or peers who influenced you? Or really stick with your memory from that time?

Roger Allan Cleaves 6:12

Sure. I had a great conversation with the late great on {Barclay L. Hendricks.} He recently passed away like a few years ago, but I also was really fond of {Iona Rochelle Brown}, her style and mind, like kind of like assumed(?) she was making these characters about these were these is this is cool character in like Japan where Japanese figure painters, well, Japanese people kind of dress up as like black, like black people was almost like blackface in Japan. And she was like making just these really interesting paintings about that idea. So it kind of meshed anime and manga style with just African culture.

Sophia Abrams 7:00

So that was in 2006. And you were a junior pursuing your BFA at the time so how did that experience impact you to approach your senior year of undergrad?

Roger Allan Cleaves 7:14

I guess I've always been super competitive, but I guess that experience amped it up a notch. And I kind of saw what other students from around the world we're doing. And it made me realize the fact that while I'm sleeping or while I'm like, wasting time, somebody is out there really trying to make it. They're trying to be the best artists they can be and get the most success they can from their work.

Sophia Abrams 7:43

And then so in 2007, you graduated from the University of Memphis with a BFA. And then what made you decide to choose UW so why Madison?

Roger Allan Cleaves 7:58

I believe in my junior, or maybe probably my senior year {T.L Solien} link came down for a to do like a guest spot. It was, I wanna say, Rhodes University. And there was kind of like this strange Iowa connection. The person that was running like Rhodes painting program at the time was a guy named {Hamline Dobbins.} And T.L knew him through Iowa. And when I saw T.L's work, it really it really struck a chord with me, we were both making these, like abstract figurative works and, but T.L was like, as far along far along the path that I was at the time, saying, I knew like, he'd be one of the people that could get the most out of me and kind of like help guide me to kind of like speed my progress, because since I like did transfer, change majors or whatever, in UT-Chattanooga, I've always like felt like I was kind of behind the eight ball and playing a game catch up. I need somebody that could get me to that point fast.

Sophia Abrams 8:59

So when you when he came, did he immediately talk to him and establish a 00:09:00connection? Or was it kind of like, Oh, I know of him, he could help me know, in the long run.

Roger Allan Cleaves 9:12

I was actually like, pretty nervous. And like my undergrad professor was talking to him at the time. And I wasn't gonna say anything, but she called me over and I just kind of like made a small introduction. But I believe by the time I applied for a UW-Madison, he had forgotten me by the end.

Sophia Abrams 9:30

All right, so then fast forward to 2008 and you began your graduate school at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. So in general, what were your expectations for starting grad school there?

Roger Allan Cleaves 9:52

I just thought I was gonna go down here and kick butt, you know, I wanted to just go down there and stay in my studio as much as possible and make the best work that I could, I knew that grad school would afford me a lot of time and a bigger space to create. And I just had the expectations of taking advantage of that. And before we got there, the UW art department was going through this change, the Art Lofts hadn't been hadn't been built yet. And our studios were kind of like in the old education building. So it was just like, you know, like you had this idea what its gonna be, but then it kind of like got off to like a rocky start, because of all the construction wasn't done quite yet. And it was like, Oh, did they they over promise? Or are they going to be able to fulfill the expectations? So they told us about, but it all got smoothed out, and kind of -- my vision came true.

Sophia Abrams 10:51

So then, from that, you kind of talked about your expectations for Madison. So how was it adjusting to Madison? Like once you were there?

Roger Allan Cleaves 11:05

Well, I guess like the biggest adjustment is that {Gelsey Verna } kind of passed away before I got there, so I she was probably like the only black artists on the on the staff. So I was kind of like, expecting to have that kind of like comfort zone of being able to talk to somebody that maybe was going through some of the same experiences me but Fred Stonehouse filled her position. And I don't know it all, it all kind of worked out. And to has a big archive of Chelsea's work. So I just like to spend a lot of time looking through our work because like my work, she was trying to create the symbols and icons and use them kind of in an abstract way to be, to tell a story.

Sophia Abrams 11:49

Going off of that for Gelsey Verna so you could talk about how to some extent you're trying to still like establish almost a relationship with her work and 00:12:00like her presence and her importance so can you just kind of elaborate on like, what about her work really like stood out to you and like, why it was so important for you to really kind of foster more of a connection with her work.

Roger Allan Cleaves 12:15

I kind of look at some of the ideas that I put together as a political cartoon, or just like a small little thing, like small icons that say a whole lot, and Gelsey's work is kind of similar. There's just these symbols that are like, packed with information, packed with ideas, but reduced to symbols that are really elegant and simple. And I don't know, it kind of just flows in like a -- it's distilled, that's a better word for it: distilled.

Sophia Abrams 12:53

Um, so from that, um, can you talk a bit about your first year as a graduate student?

Roger Allan Cleaves 13:05

First year, I, we were all put in this class, it's I guess it's art practices where you kind of have like an art mom that, or dad that keeps eye on you. And I don't know, you -- you're trapped, you're trying to find the people you relate to and trying to find like just a group of, it's gonna get the best out of you. And I was kind of like, you know, it's one of the smallest classes we had. So it wasn't like a whole lot of people to choose from. So I don't know, I took a liking to like a lot of people in the sculpture department and a couple of the painters and we just kind of got the most out of each other and pushed each other. The class was kind of strenuous because we had to keep like this daily journal on beauty. I don't know about towards the end of it, everybody was like, just writing like simple things. Everything is beautiful the snow is beautiful, because they had just like had enough of it. But it's overall good experience.

Sophia Abrams 14:03

Um, can you elaborate a little bit on how your peers kind of like challenged you but also supported you during that time?

Roger Allan Cleaves 14:14

Well you're, when you like, meet a group of people, you're trying to get an idea of who's really -- who really knows what they're talking about, who's just like, kind of full of shit and we, I don't know, you know, outside of the actual classroom experiences -- experience where you're like just walking around and discussing things with your, with your fellow like classmates, and a lot of them had like ideas that that kind of related to their work, they could like push on your work and help you see things in a different way. And you-- I mean, just seeing like different people create is also impactful on artists, you can kind of say, hey, how would I do that in my work or how can I make use of those materials, you know, and just pushes you a little further, through osmosis.

Sophia Abrams 15:03

Um, from that so you sent me some of your early coffee drawings that you started a little before you started graduate school. So could you walk us through some of these drawings, please?

Roger Allan Cleaves 15:24

I think -- I didn't send you the actual titles. Oh. So let's start with the drawings that have no color. These were some of the first drawings that I made at UW. And before then they were just kind of smaller portrait like things. But in these drawings, I was kind of trying to build a narrative with characters but I hadn't really had my my characters figured out yet. And I was trying to just like build like an epic narrative tale kind of like {Pinocchio,} or Peter Pan where there was this adventure and a hero that was traveling through this strange world to do -- do heroic tasks. But a lot of the tasks that he performed were like very heroic-y, he -- it was more full of like observing absurdity and satire. And every now and then, political ideas kind of like snuck in where I was like, trying to just like make a connection with the world at that point-- You want me to describe more about the drawings?

Sophia Abrams 16:34

Sure, please.

Roger Allan Cleaves 16:36

Let's see. My hero character has always been this guy like with a pointy nose and a kind of like a small sword, and in this world like a lot of like, strange and absurd things. People were like just taking -- taking part in excess and alcohol and partying kind of and he's just kind of taking it all in, I guess. I guess there's also a kind of well about like, the grad school, like how do you like stay away from like, all the vices and keep focus. So in one drawing called "Lubricated Epiphany," you see, like, this guy, like a bunch of guys are like holding bottles. But inside the bottles are like all of these like ideas, like one guy is holding up a bird that is trapped inside of a bottle with a small insect. And it's just kind of like being trapped in. And not like being able to escape something.

Sophia Abrams 17:43

From that, so what about epic narratives really spoke to you to include them in your art?

Roger Allan Cleaves 17:52

Can you ask that one more time?

Sophia Abrams 17:54

What about epic narratives really kind of spoke to you to include them in your art?

Roger Allan Cleaves 18:02

Well, I, I felt like there was an absence of epic narratives told by black artists in the art world, and I still feel that way. And I don't know, I wanted -- I wanted to create my own. And I wanted to, I guess I was like, in the early stages of where I am now, where I wasn't aware of afrofuturism. But I wanted to, like, you know, like, include ideas from just like a black point of view. And have it be epic, like, why -- like why don't Black people get to tell that tale of a Harry Potter? Why are we always like, isolated to think about portraiture and race, like trying to fit into like, a white dominated art world?

Sophia Abrams 18:51

Um, so you mentioned how at the time, you weren't aware of afrofuturism so were there any courses that you took during graduate school that expanded your knowledge about black culture that kind of influenced your art as well?

Roger Allan Cleaves 19:09

Not really, all of my, like research at that point was just pretty much about like, abstract figuration, and storytelling through art. And I guess, Fred being there who's also like, just like the like this history of like building characters that kind of expand the timeline of history. Art kind of really helped. But all of the -- all the ideas I had about race, it really wasn't anyone there that I was, like bouncing ideas off with. It wasn't for the fact that they weren't open to it. It's just like maybe for the fact that I like hadn't thought that it needed to be like done yet.

Sophia Abrams 19:53

Could you expand upon some of your abstract art research.

Roger Allan Cleaves 19:58

Oh, you know, for like my thesis, one of the like, one of the questions was, how does your relate to so and so how does your work relate to that I'm trying to think of the names off the top of my head, but if you give me a second, I can probably get it for you. But it was more -- It was more about like looking at Guston like {Trenton Dual Hancock} artists of that nature that like we're building these symbolic abstract worlds. And he was just studying {now main?} kind of like trying to figure out where I fit in and how my work was different, and how it was similar. And how I was going to, like, you know, try to branch out and become, you know, in my own like, kind of artistic space.

Sophia Abrams 20:55

So when you mentioned branch out, I know that you start at your graduate school, 00:21:00more of like, drawing in mind, and painting. But what made you branch out into different forms or different mediums?

Roger Allan Cleaves 21:13

Um, T.L really like, it got to the point where he was like, "Look, your drawings are really great. You can make these anytime you want to, and you'll always be able to do that." He said, "why don't why don't you try to figure out in your third year, like strengthen the things that you like aren't good at or haven't tried yet." So you kind of he said, like, "if we're going to if you're going to continue to make drawings, then he's like, there's not like really much I can say to you, but if you want to, like make sculptures, then that opens up a new, new door of discussion." So I just started making these kind of like, wonky creations, they, I wouldn't, I don't think they would pass like architecture test, if they would like stand up forever, or whatnot. But it was fun just to kind of see my characters take a three dimensional form or think about them in a three dimensional way. Doing that actually made me take up the challenge of learning {Maya}, like, use us later. And I could just build those same characters without like having to have having a my take out time and space. Because the sculptures I were a bit cumbersome to keep in house, I ended up like, throwing away most of that work from grad school because I just didn't have a place to keep it in.

Sophia Abrams 22:25

So you mentioned T.L again, Solien. And I know that so like you were first introduced to him as an undergraduate student. So can you talk a bit about your relationship with him? Well, as a graduate student?

Roger Allan Cleaves 22:43

He's probably the professor I had the most independent studies with. I liked that like while I was there, we -- we never really talked about painting we more like talked about, like the spirit of painting, the attitude of it. You know, just like having the confidence to do anything and chase any idea down that you have, we never really like talked about like techniques or anything, he just just, I just kind of like, was trying to soak up as much as his attitude as I could. He's kind of like known as the junkyard dog of painting because throws everything together.

Sophia Abrams 23:21

Could you elaborate a little on what the spirit of painting means for you? And maybe what it meant for you at that time.

Roger Allan Cleaves 23:32

I guess the spirit of painting for me is being unafraid to think and try ideas out that haven't been readily accepted by by the art world. I guess that gets back into just like the spirit of what cool is to me it's like maintaining making sure that your attitude shows through like in any kind of performance that you do and being unique and having an individual style that communicates 00:24:00you know, your personality and your inner spirit. I think like I probably like come off like really reserved, but like my paintings are usually like these big boisterous things that probably like scream more than they do like stand back. And I guess like the air of cool is like, cool is also like having like that spirit kind of like bottled into a distilled form that is, you know, Iike readily accessible to people and readily readily accepted by people.

Sophia Abrams 24:38

So you mentioned kind of how you might come up as reserved, but your art's pretty loud. Can you talk a bit about how like, what loudness kind of means or like how that manifests in your work.

Roger Allan Cleaves 24:54

It kind of like sits -- it doesn't just sit on the wall and disappear. It stands on the wall and has its own like presence, you got to notice it once it's in a room. So maybe not like loud -- like as in color -- but loud as like, the imagery is really iconic and stylized and almost like aggressive. I think T.L was like, hey, yeah, I don't care what you do here, but just like, I want you to try to, like make the most aggressive thing that's in the room.

Sophia Abrams 25:23

And then from that, what do you say that -- that notion of trying to make your paintings a bit more aggressive? Was that something that happened more towards the end of your graduate school experience art towards the beginning?

Roger Allan Cleaves 25:39

Yeah, I believe so. Like, if you look at the piece where it's called, "There's No Place Like Home" I kind of-- It's really, like, it's really like a really large drawing. And it's a lot going on, you got like this, the tin man about the like, smash these lines over the head of his axe and other guy with swords in his neck throughout his body. Acts of betrayal. I was kind of using like the Wizard of Oz to like trying to tell like a really like aggressive tale about the Wizard of Oz. I don't know if I answered your question.

Sophia Abrams 26:16

No, Yeah, you did. Um, okay, so now I kind of want to talk about some exhibitions that you did as well. So, in 2008, you were a part of a UW Madison group exhibition at the Priebe Gallery. Can you talk a little about what that experience was like, as your first gallery in -- in Madison?

Roger Allan Cleaves 26:46

GIve me just a second, I'm trying to see who was in that group show.

Sophia Abrams 26:50

Oh, you're good.

Roger Allan Cleaves 26:50

It may have been like just one of our like our like our last group show as an MFA. So you're asking me so can you ask that question one more time?

Sophia Abrams 27:00

I was just asking, like, what that experience was like for you?

Roger Allan Cleaves 27:05

Well, by -- by your third year, you really just want to be left alone. You really want to just--

Sophia Abrams 27:13

Oh, wait, sorry. What's that? I have in my notes I have it was in 2008. So I thought it was your first year. Let's see-- at the pre-gallery, the UW-Madison group exhibition.

Roger Allan Cleaves 27:31

Give me just a second. You have so many shows. Since then. It's like kind of part of the magic group exhibition -- gallery. I guess, like my memory is failing me on that one because I didn't actually like go down to Oshkosh with everybody. It was just kind of, I don't really it was just one of those shows where Oshkosh, Wisconsin -- their art program was kind of like doing an exchange. I think some of their artists sit down some work from their students and we set up some work from theirs. So I don't really have a whole lot of memories about that Oshkosh show.

Sophia Abrams 28:17

Oh, that's okay. Um, okay, so then, in 2000, do you have any? So then the next exhibition I have on my list is, "It's My First Time" at the Seventh Floor Gallery in Madison.

Roger Allan Cleaves 28:32

Yeah, that was, that was a fun show. That was the first time day we all as a MFA-- like as our MFA class got the show together. So I think everybody was like really trying. Like, traditionally, the MFA shows up to the point that we got there. The -- the grad school students, they really take them seriously. They just like trying to put up their like, worst work and like have like a critique about it. But I think we really show it out. Everybody brought the best thing that they had, and they put it in a gallery. And I think that was like what was really special about our class. Like, everybody wanted attention on their work. Everybody wanted to kind of steal the show from each other. So--

Sophia Abrams 29:13

Do you remember what you had in the show?

Roger Allan Cleaves 29:18

My first time I believe it was a-- I'm pretty sure it was a large drawing. I didn't send you one. This one but I kind of made this big orange drawing of kind of like the samurais and cowboys fighting each other. And I think I just like pinned it up with like clips on the wall, and make sure they had a good presence.

Sophia Abrams 29:45

Nice. Um, okay, so we're about to kind of wrap up your first year at Madison. Are there any other details that you think are worth noting? Or maybe people who haven't talked about yet

Roger Allan Cleaves 29:59

I feel like we talked about the people towards like the, the second semester, I guess that's when the Art Lofts were like, finally made. So around that time, it was just like the excitement of moving from like, our small little studios and the education building down to Art Lofts which are kind of by the, by the stadium. So it was just like, you know, after that after that second semester is about like, Okay, now we're really here now it's like, really time to get going. And then once a year wrapped up, I guess we, I guess everybody was trying to decide what they were going to do for the summer. A lot of people, I think most of the people left and like Madison kind of became a ghost town. I just kind of like stuck around and made art because we still had access to our studios. So I just took advantage of that summer, part two.

Sophia Abrams 30:57

So that was Summer 2009. So can you talk a little bit more about the differences that occurred as you were working in Madison or just doing art in Madison that summer?

Roger Allan Cleaves 31:13

Well, you know, we didn't get funding through the summer. So you know, it was always like, it was a struggle, like just trying to work and like try to also like spend time making art. It was kind of like, just the experience of like really like you someplace, but there's like really like nothing going on, because all the students have been removed. It was it was a good time, it was a lot hotter than I thought. So I just learned -- like remember, like biking every day to get back and forth between like my studio and my apartment.

Sophia Abrams 31:48

Alright. So now let's talk a bit about more -- so your second year. So do you have any vivid memories that really stuck out to you about your first semester of your second year of graduate school?

Roger Allan Cleaves 32:05

I think around that time I started working with {Jack Damer}, who was also really -- I have really fond memories of -- {Jack Damer} ran like the printmaking department. He's like this old school lithographer. And it was kind of just like fun listening to his stories. I -- we -- I just took a class from him. I'm not sure what it was titled. But we spent a lot of time just like watching film and discussing like the importance of film. And there's so many like good Jack stories that I've been told that are probably like -- can't tell on camera, but he's like really always been really insightful and helpful to my work.

Sophia Abrams 32:46

Um, so going off of that, in terms of you say that he was pretty insightful and helpful for your work. Did you notice any, like change in your work, either, like, during that class, or after taking his class how your work progressed in a 00:33:00different way?

Roger Allan Cleaves 33:06

Um, Jack was really someone that as a printmaker that like paid attention to the details. So I guess, Jack kind of helped strengthen my storytelling. Like he -- like when we -- when we were watching films in his class, I remember him like -- we were watching, like "No Country for Old Men." And he'd like -- like this, like, pause it at random he's like, "Do you know why he wiped his -- his shoes when he like walked out the house? And, of course, it was because like, the bad guy was like, trying to try to make sure that he didn't get any blood on his shoes. And I don't know, it just like made me think of like the details of storytelling or, like the ways you can tell the story. There's, if you like, broke a film down into like, like a comic strip, it would have these like panels of like, really key moments. And I think sometimes those moments became my actual paintings for me. My own narratives.

Sophia Abrams 34:05

So going off of that, kind of like how the panels became narratives, within your own paint -- own paintings, were there any other notable events or people that influenced you at that time?

Roger Allan Cleaves 34:25

I was -- I'm a huge fan of {Lisa Guralnick.} She's probably one of the smartest people I've ever had -- right now my art -- {Michael J. Maclaurin,} he's brilliant. He was brilliant. He was an art historian who did critiques for us that second year, I never really got a chance to take an independent study with him. But I think they were just like pretty brilliant.

Sophia Abrams 34:51

Um, you mentioned {Lisa Gralnick}? Could you elaborate more on what her critiques meant for you?

Roger Allan Cleaves 35:02

There was only one really important critique. And she just like came in and totally like dissected my art like she works in the metal department. So I didn't really think she would get it. But she has like this really insightful way of like talking about art. And she mostly like talked about, like, where she thought my art was going to be in a few years. And about like, I was gonna be kind of exploring kind of the path that I'm on, she says she can see it growing into something like that. And she also had this connection to Trenton Doyle Hancock, I think he came down for a critique the year after I left, but it was always like the plan to get them down there and like, kind of meet them and talk to them about just the art world. Because his artwork kind of explores abstract figurative narrative where black characters are involved, as well as like one of the only few people don't know.

Sophia Abrams 35:58

Um, so from that-- so for critiques, how were the critiques generally for you?

Roger Allan Cleaves 36:11

Critiques generally went well, but I can't really like think of like a bad discouraging moment, or like a super negative moment, I had, like the only people who really got attacked in grad school or like people who weren't really trying where the work wasn't matching up what they were trying to build it to be. But my work ethic was I say everything bad about my work to myself, before anybody out in person gets to see it. So by the time I get to that point where they're seeing it, I've already like pretty much thought the thoughts they're going to talk about. I've always like felt that as an artist, you got to be like your hardest critic, but it can't be like debilitating.

Sophia Abrams 36:58

From that, going back to the critique by {Lisa Gralnicjk}, what was the piece that she was critiquing by you?

Roger Allan Cleaves 37:06

It was more of like a studio visit, you know, where our critiques like, we don't just set like a piece up on the wall. But they come to your studio, look around and talk about things that you're, you're creating, it wasn't just like one isolated piece, but she really enjoyed like just the cartoon nature of my things and how to kind of like, poke fun at society. And I think our -- I think the discussions we talked about was just like, ways to make things satirical way like means to be to use that satire in art.

Sophia Abrams 37:40

So from that, how did satire manifest in your work?

Roger Allan Cleaves 37:47

Satire is, I don't know, it manifests in my work in more of like, just the icons I build. You -- you can tell the -- like, I could be talking about something very serious, but you know, really like silly kind of way just to poke fun at {an absurdity?}. So it, it shows up in the icons, and it shows up in the symbols.

Sophia Abrams 38:14

Okay, and then I see that-- so during your second year, you had a few exhibitions. The first being "15 Seconds" at the Art Lofts Gallery. Do you have any memories about that exhibition?

Roger Allan Cleaves 38:34

Say the title of it for me one more time?

Sophia Abrams 38:36

"15 Seconds."

Roger Allan Cleaves 38:39

"15 Seconds"... that was our our second group MFA show I showed. That was the first time I showed the lion piece that I printed and I think that's at the point where like, I think Michael J came down and T.L critiqued that show, and I 00:39:00think {Paul Sacherreadis}, and it was, they were all like really impressed. But it's also like, the time like when T.L was like, Okay, this is this is it, I was like, is I can't really like tell you how to become like a better drawer right now, it's like, you're, you kind of like, tapped out or peaked. So that's why I think they'd like say, okay, let's see what you can do with sculpture.

Sophia Abrams 39:24

So that's almost more of a turning point for you in your career. Um, so in general from -- so that was your second MFA show? How did you approach that show differently than your first MFA show?

Roger Allan Cleaves 39:43

You know, each show with your peers kind of -- kind of step up. You want to step it up each time and you want to have people surprised by what you're going to do. So I think I probably went from showing -- I think I just like really increased the size on my drawings and really like started -- that's when that drawing -- is when I started packing them in, where there was like an overwhelming amount of like information. And I kind of like break down my work through I see like, there's always like framing techniques, I think that's like probably one of the most framed pieces that I made where in each frame, there's something going on, it kind of is like a comic strip without, without the absence -- with the absence of the panels.

Sophia Abrams 40:27

You talk about expanding the literal size of the piece as well, can you just talk a bit about how -- just what your process was like, maybe like how, whether it's like how long it take -- took you to produce art, just kind of like a day in the life of you a graduate student,

Roger Allan Cleaves 40:50

I was, I actually worked all my drawings on the floor. So I remember having to glue pieces of paper together because I couldn't get paper the exact size that I wanted to. And plus I kind of liked the look of it. So usually it involved me gluing down papers, and those coffee paint coffee stain drawings, like two, three or four layers of coffee to get them to the tone that I wanted to. So it starts with me staining coffee, gluing them down, using something like a pencil to kind of like, get a general idea of what the composition is going to look like. And then I ink everything with a brush. So the whole time, you're super nervous about dropping an ink droplet in the wrong spot. And you want to like keep your impression line. And it was really like hard on my body to that's making those drawings, there's a lot of like fine details in them. And actually, while like grad school is like where my eyes went bad and I like start having to wear glasses, because I don't know why you're like cross hatching and making little movements with the brush year, you got to remember to blink and back and give yourself like a time for breaks. So I don't know, it was a great time, fun 00:42:00time, but really hard on the body. But I wouldn't trade for anything

Sophia Abrams 42:11

From that -- so you mentioned kind of trial and error. So what did experimentation look like for your art at that time?

Roger Allan Cleaves 42:24

At that time, I have a lot of different ways that I like to see more art in different forms. Sometimes I just like work really loosely in my sketchbook with watery substances like ink wash or watercolor. And other times, I'm like making small sketches in my sketchbook scanning them into my computer, putting them into digital. And just using different blend layers -- scale layers to just see them in a different form, I think is really important to I don't know, test the -- test the boundaries and parameters of your art.

Sophia Abrams 43:02

So from that the next exhibition I have is Imaginary Friends at the Commonwealth Gallery. Do you have any memories about that exhibition?

Roger Allan Cleaves 43:19

Imaginary Friends was a show I did with on {Josh Nemic} and {Chin Wang}. And it was our thesis show. To see if we were going to you know the MFA is broken down into two parts, there's an MA, then there's an MFA in your second year you either get your ma or you choose just to see if you're gonna like qualify to continue on in the program. So the let's see the Commonwealth Gallery like this really like strange place like enough kind of like in a factory setting. And I don't know, it's the first show I had to like kind of like go outside of my means to like build like being in a like a strange environment where I didn't like particularly know the layout and things. So it was I just remember that show was like a lot of work deciding like who gets what area? How do we distinguish your work from my work? Where's the boundary line? Should there be one? And overall, it was a good show. I just felt that it could have been sectioned off a little bit better. I think Josh's work and my work kind of like bled together and we're both kind of like cowboys in the game where we'll try anything.

Sophia Abrams 44:36

Um, so you mentioned how that was your MA Show. So could you walk us through a little bit about like, how you got to the Commonwealth Gallery as like your MA Show. So like, what ideas? So like what, what was your MA Show on just like a 00:45:00little bit more about that.

Roger Allan Cleaves 45:04

My MA Show was kind of about putting -- putting together the the narrative that I've been building like really like having to work out in the platform one of the first times as like a grouping. So I just like approached it is building building like a story throughout the gallery. And the process was the first time I had to rent a truck just to move everything from one location to the other, and set it up completely by myself. The MA show all together was like, once, once everything is up, your committee comes down to look at the word, and you have kind of a big group critique together, and you talk about like, what's good, what's bad, and kind of like, what's next? You present the work, you talk about it, and they say what they have to say they give you a thumbs up or thumbs down.

Sophia Abrams 46:01

And then so "15 Seconds" was the title of the show, right?

Roger Allan Cleaves 46:09

That's the Art Lofts Gallery.

Sophia Abrams 46:11

That's the name of the gallery. Um, so what was like the title of the show? Did you have a title for the show?

Roger Allan Cleaves 46:21

We chose to just title it as a group.

Sophia Abrams 46:24

Okay.

Roger Allan Cleaves 46:25

Yeah. So we went we all we just went with "Imaginary Friends." It was still like a group exhibition. But we knew it was gonna be broken down for our like our MA Thesis.

Sophia Abrams 46:37

I see. I just look quickly, too quickly at my notes and looked at "15 Seconds" as opposed to "Imaginary Friends." Yeah. That's cool. So that after that show, during your second year, you also had "Triple Crown" at the Art Loft gallery. Can you talk a bit about that?

Roger Allan Cleaves 47:01

"Triple Crown" is kind of like the show that we put on for the incoming MFA candidate. The professors like to have like a show. And really, really triple count. I think like at that point, you're pretty much exhausted from like, everyone's doing their MFA thesis it. But it's also like probably one of the last times, we were going to show together as a collective group. I think triple crown was in the Art Lofts Gallery, but by then it you know, by then we were just like, all kind of like a pretty much spent, and kind of looking forward for summer break.

Sophia Abrams 47:45

So you talk about how that was your final show. Do you remember what piece or like what you had in that show?

Roger Allan Cleaves 47:54

I didn't send it to you. But it was a piece called I believe "Bedroom Magic." I 00:48:00think I like another drawing at that point. Because I knew I was building sculptures with the idea for my MFA show. And I didn't want to let kind of like the cat out of the bag before then.

Sophia Abrams 48:13

Um, so from that, you talked about how that show was the last show before everyone kind of you know, has -- have -- had their MFA show. So can you talk about how you went about preparing for your MFA show after that?

Roger Allan Cleaves 48:34

Really, the -- my idea was: make as much work as possible from the time that you know, like, you have your thesis, you have it until you get to your MFA and see what sticks and what doesn't. So if I always try to like make more I'm really like nervous about like, not having enough work for an exhibition or they're being like this glaring gap on the wall that needs to be filled and you don't have a work for it. So I knew I was taking up like space everywhere. I -- our studios were kind of in the back of the Art Lofts. So it was kind of like the like Bad Boy Land where everybody was just making stuff out in the hallways and using every square inch they could like, {do their work up?}. So it was just like a blitz, a studio blitz.

Sophia Abrams 49:25

Perhaps I missed it, but what was not -- what was the title? Or sorry, what was your thesis at the time?

Roger Allan Cleave 49:39

My thesis show was called the Magic Hour.

Sophia Abrams 49:46

Then so--

Roger Allan Cleaves 49:49

Go ahead.

Sophia Abrams 49:50

No, sorry, you can go.

Roger Allan Cleaves 49:53

I was just gonna say that was like my first big solo exhibition and I made this installation with all the sculptures, I started my oil painting then part of the reason why I like came to Madison was to just like figure out like, my relationship to oil paint again. So most of my -- my undergraduate work that I got in was oil painting. At the Yale Norfolk Residency. And that's when I wanted to move to drawing. And before I got to Madison, the drawings became the coffee drawings.

Sophia Abrams 50:38

We'll definitely talk a lot more about the Magic Hour. But am I frozen right now? Can you hear me?

Roger Allan Cleaves 50:50

No, you're not?

Sophia Abrams 50:52

Great. Um, but before we move on to your third year, are there any other notable 00:51:00things or events that occurred that you think are worthwhile about your second year?

Roger Allan Cleaves 51:12

Second year? No. Third year, I just remember like that international show with the Visual Arts Center in New Jersey, and just having to figure out how to get worked down in New Jersey. I remember, one of the students helped me build like a crate for everything. And it turns out, I didn't really need it, I just send it -- send it roll. But that was a good experience.

Sophia Abrams 51:35

So how did you discover that, that experience? or How did you like what was that process like for the New Jersey?

Roger Allan Cleaves 51:46

Well, this, I discovered that show through a CAA call for art. And you know, you send out work curator kind of picks and chooses what they -- they want to have in the show. And they chose one of the drawings I sent one with the kind of like sharks springing out of the wells. So I just sent that drawing down. I built a frame for in case they insisted it would be framed, but they were pretty cool with contemporary displaying of art. So I just sent it rolled and they hung it on the wall. So it's really just any work out and saying who likes and who doesn't.

Sophia Abrams 52:23

Was that your first time doing something like that as a graduate student? Or had you done something similar before?

Roger Allan Cleaves 52:32

I've submitted to like jury shows before. I think like during a graduate school run, like a lot of those drawings got publicated, a publicated in international drawing through my manifest. So I'm used to the jury experience and you know, when you're coming up in undergrad, you're always like, oh, to see who gets the who from the BFA program gets to be in the juried exhibition. So I'm used to like wait and see approach.

Sophia Abrams 53:08

All right, so now, let's talk a little bit more about your third year. So you're talking about this before about the Magic Hour. But could you walk us through a bit of like, what the Magic Hour was?

Roger Allan Cleaves 53:29

It was kind of about transforming the gallery into this world that was going on in my head. I had a bunch of sculptures out of just these like creatures, and some of those creatures were represented in paintings. And the gallery is kind of like sectioned off as if you were like walking through like a furniture store. And there's just like these different different displays of furniture but they all happen to be these wonky pieces of art. One of the photos that I believe I sent you was like this guy like laying in bed and there's like all 00:54:00this kind of like a kind of like a bedroom environment. He's laying back and having like, all these kind of like weird dreams that are kind of reflected in the paintings that are on the wall. So it's just it was kind of like looking at a dirty little boy's room. Everything's kind of just kind of grimy and textured.

Sophia Abrams 54:30

So looking at a trend of your show, I noticed -- I noticed that it's very colorful, um, what inspired you to kind of have used color in that way?

Roger Allan Cleaves 54:45

Really, throughout my history of art, I have always really been it's like attracted to primary color screens, really bright colors, games. I think it really does come from like the Sunday comic strips that I used to read like everything everything in there has to be kind of eye catching. And I just like like really bright, powerful colors.

Sophia Abrams 55:11

Um, so also I know that one theme for you is kind of like the Land of Forget Me Not. So was that influencing your thesis show?

Roger Allan Cleaves 55:28

No, I think that came like years years after like, after I got into grad school I like wasn't quite sure what to make you're -- I don't know, you always feel pressure to turn the page or get to the next thing the next idea in your art in I think like for like a year after grad school I was just like creating things and in probably about like a year and a half and after that one of my friends like drowned in news like drowned in his Lake he like kind of like lost control of his of his vehicle and ended up in this like lake by this church. And he was like, I remember that day because it was raining really bad thunderstorm and outside. And in like we got like to call it -- like my friend {Taita} drowned, and I just kind of like remember some of the things he was going through of life. And I made a piece called like, "you can't drown" and "shark" and just like, kind of like, bought this kind of like black character being succumbing to the pressures of the world. They feel like he was like weighted down and kind of like attack. I think they like led me to the Land of Forget Me Nots.

Sophia Abrams 56:40

Um, would you say that post Madison, your work became more like -- articulate a more of a black experience? Or would you say that it was just kind of the natural progression that you were inclined towards?

Roger Allan Cleaves 57:04

I think, like some of the ideas that I had were reflected in previous work, but it didn't, it wasn't as prominent like it just like be me hinting at it instead of me, like putting it pushing it to the forefront. I think like, through through that period of time, we had like a lot of like police shootings and I don't know, like racial tension was like, slowly like climbing to the point where it is like, right now, it wasn't like a full on like Black Lives Matter movement. But, you know, people were kind of becoming disgusted with how they were being treated in society. So I think like, actually, like being out in out in it, like Madison kind of separates you from the world was like a little nest for you to a safe place almost. But like once you're out in our world in like living with it everyday living with like the decisions of curators in these kind of like white control institutions, you, you start to think about it a little bit more, and it kind of probably works this way, works this way into your heart.

Sophia Abrams 58:09

That's really interesting. When we talk about Madison, kind of insulating you do you think? What impact do you think that had on your art as a graduate student?

Roger Allan Cleaves 57:24

Probably they're the greatest impact. If you can take two or three years just to like, you know, figure out who you are, and figure out what you want to make about like having worry about, you know, just like outside pressure going to a job or for nine to five hours, sometimes 12 you, you're going to grow through that process, I think. I think you should like go to grad school when you do have like that idea, or at least like that initial idea of what you want to do. Because I saw in a lot of like the upper classes, like people kind of like floundering, like trying to like figure out what they wanted to do, like, do the process of being in grad school. So, I don't know, I think when you go with a purpose it you get the most out of yourself.

Sophia Abrams 59:11

From that, that kind of culminates well with this question. So in terms of trying to get the most out of yourself. How like, what did that feel like for you by the time you were able to have your thesis show?

Roger Allan Cleaves 59:30

So can you say that one more time?

Sophia Abrams 59:32

Like so -- I more so -- I guess so -- by the time you had your thesis show, did you feel like you had really gotten the most out of yourself?

Roger Allan Cleaves 59:41

At time period? Definitely. I think like as an artist, you're always in competition with what's going on in the contemporary art scene. You're like a competition with -- with history. And you're like you just like want to be the best one like max out whatever you can, and I know like, after my, after my 01:00:00thesis show, I remember like, I probably like spent the whole night in the gallery by myself for like, 24-36 hours just like trying to build everything and get everything properly. I was -- I was definitely spent.

Sophia Abrams 1:00:16

Um, going off that, how would you say that your show was received?

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:00:22

It was received well, I -- I think like after I left, it was, like, all the professors were like documenting it. So they all have like their own, like, cache of photos from it. And I think everybody's like, pretty impressive. I was able to do what I say I was gonna do you know, you -- before you like build your thesis. So you have all these conversations. So what are you going to do you look at all your affairs, I am going to turn this the gallery into a world and they just kind of look at you. Okay, we're going to stay out your way and you go forward. So as long as you follow through with what you said, you're going to do, you're pretty good, I think. But also like that thesis show probably leads. That's where you get your questions like, whoever you have you pull a committee of the people you want to work with then my committee was on {Nancy Molondog} T. L Solien, Fred Stonehouse, and {Jack Dahmer.} So they all had like, different questions to ask me.

Sophia Abrams 1:01:27

We are about to move on to post-Madison. But do you have any other important things that should be noted about your third year as a graduate student?

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:00:41

I think you've done an excellent job asking questions, it's hard for me to remember.

Sophia Abrams 1:01:48

That -- that's okay.

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:00:50

You need me to elaborate on anything in the future, you can always just like, go for.

Sophia Abrams 1:01:56

Great. Um, so I guess now I want to talk a little bit about post-Madison. Um, so in 2011, you graduated from Madison with an MFA. So what was that like for you to like, suddenly, like, okay, you -- you've been a graduate student for three years, and now you have to transition? And so what was that process like for you to find something post-Madison?

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:02:24

It was pretty, pretty difficult. Like throughout like, like my time in Madison, like a lot of people didn't know what I was dealing like, with my mom like having cancer. Like the year after I left, I moved back to Memphis to kind of like be around and help out a little bit more because all the weight was on my father's siblings. So it was it was a big transition from like, having like, this like that, you know, like kind of like a sanctuary where you're protected to like being just like thrust back into the reality of things that hey, like, when your parents is dying, and you got to find a job and all of this like kind 01:03:00of like heaviness of life.

Sophia Abrams 1:03:08

Um, so from that, I know that you were a high school teacher first. And then now you're currently pursuing an art commission. Do I have that right?

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:03:24

Right. Well, what I what I do now like I've been like really like fortunate for like the past year just to like, have a steady amount of like collectors like want, want my work. So I just been kind of shipping work out and making as much as possible trying to get do the things that will, you know, earn me the attention for collectors and more museums. So just been by me and my studio for like this past year.

Sophia Abrams 1:03:52

How would you say that? So now almost 10 years later, post-graduate school, how has your education and general experience in Madison impacted you today?

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:04:08

It definitely opens up more doors. I think when you're when you have like an MFA when you're like, putting your name people have to like take you more seriously, they notice you're like really committed to what you're doing. And it's, it's just been good to, like put on resumes and kind of talk about it, like how they're, you know, they're still like, their support system. Like I can still reach out to T.L and Jack and have them like write letters of recommendation for me if I need them to. So and, of course, they of course, don't being like both are like professional artists, working artists, they have their own connections in the art world that they can kind of push you towards or like, like, hey, like, get you in the door.

Sophia Abrams 1:04:56

Um, that's really great. In terms of, I think we've pretty much covered a lot of notable experiences. But I guess I had another question too. What advice would you give to undergraduate students, or especially black undergraduate students have a BFA and are interested in getting an MFA.

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:05:30

I tell them to work hard. And not be, not be pigeonholed. Like, don't let anybody like pigeonhole your ideas or steer you in a direction that they, they think will, it would be interesting for you to explore but like find your find your own voice, find your own version of cool and go out and pursue it and push it on the world.

Sophia Abrams 1:05:53

Great advice. Do you have any other comments about your experience at Madison?

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:06:30

I really -- honestly it was just one of the most fun times in my life. It was just walking through the snowstorms and seeing how people dealt with blizzards and things of that nature was kind of incredible, because I've never seen that much snow in my life or at least like live with it, you know?

Sophia Abrams 1:06:23

Well, thank you so much for letting me interview you about your graduate experience at UW-Madison. I hope that this interview is helpful for the future but also worthwhile and interesting for current people to learn more about your experience at UW-Madison.

Roger Allan Cleaves 1:06:46

Awesome. I thank you for inviting me to take part in this interview and hope it hope the footage is something that you can use and hope it all turns out well.

Sophia Abrams 1:06:56

Thanks.