Interview with Ellen Drewry

SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1894

DREWRY, ELLEN

DREWRY, ELLEN (1924-)

Nursing student

Interviewed: 2019

Interviewer: Faith Hoffmeyer

Index by: Sophie Clark

Transcribed by: Teresa Bergen

Length: 41 minutes

First Interview Session (November 22, 2019): Digital File

00:00:00

FH: Okay, great. So today is November 22, 2019. And this is an oral history interview for the Madison General--

ED: Slow down a little and say that again.

FH: Sure. This is an oral history interview for the Madison General Hospital Oral History Project. And today is November 22, 2019. And my name is Faith Hoffmeyer. And I'm calling from the Steenbock Library at UW Madison campus.

ED: Right. Right.

FH: And Ellen, could you please spell your first and last name for an audio check?

ED: E-l-l-e-n. D-r-e-w-r-y.

FH: Great. Thank you so much. So, to start, can you just please give a brief introduction to your early life and where you grew up?

ED: I was born in Kewaunee, Wisconsin. And went to both public and Catholic schools. My father died when I was eight. And his business went bankrupt so my 00:01:00mother supported us by taking in roomers, which generally were teachers. I worked at a shipyard after high school, before joining the nurses group. What else would you like to know?

FH: Did you have any brothers or sisters?

ED: I have one brother. And, who is a couple of years older than I am.

FH: And was there anything in your background that guided you to choose a career in nursing?

ED: Say that again and slower, please.

FH: Was there anything in your background that guided you to choose a career in nursing, or an education in nursing?

ED: I just didn't hear that.

FH: I'm sorry about that.

ED: Wait a minute. I'll try, I'm just adjusting my hearing aid, see if I can 00:02:00hear you better.

FH: Great. I will try to speak up as well.

ED: Thank you. Now I can hear you.

2:13

FH: Good. So my question was, was there anything in your life that guided you towards a career in nursing?

ED: (laughs) Yes. The fact that I couldn't go to college because I didn't have the money, and because my brother, it was wartime and my brother was in service. And they told me in high school, even though I had a scholarship, that I had to stay home because my mother was a widow.

FH: And who told you that?

ED: So along came the cadet nurse corps. And that eliminated money. I didn't have to worry about that. And I thought, I didn't like working as a secretary particularly. And I just took that opportunity. I never thought of nursing 00:03:00before. Never.

FH: And what year did you graduate high school?

ED: Pardon?

FH: What year did you graduate high school?

ED: Forty-two.

FH: And when did you join the cadet nurse corps?

ED: Two years after that. Let's see, I said, '47, that must have been 1944.

FH: I see. And what did you know about the nurse cadet corps before you joined?

ED: Not much. Just knew that I could get a free education.

FH: And how long were you part of that program?

ED: Well, I finished the program, the three years.

FH: Three years? Will you tell me a bit about your experience within those three years?

ED: A bit about my what?

FH: Experience.

ED: Oh, I loved nursing. Once I got into it, I enjoyed it very much. I was happy at Madison General. Everything was very pleasant.

04:16

FH: And so, which years did you attend? So you attended the Madison General Hospital School of Nursing for the three years--

ED: Yes.

FH: Two years after graduation.

ED: I graduated from there and went to work.

FH: I see. And when you first got to Madison, what did you think of the city?

ED: I was familiar with Madison. And I love Madison. It's one of my favorite cities.

FH: And how large was your class?

ED: How what?

FH: Large was the class you were in?

ED: Big. Well, I think there were 28 of us when we finished. There were more that dropped out.

FH: I see. And did you live in the dorms?

ED: Yes.

FH: What was that experience like?

ED: Oh, wonderful. Loads of fun.

FH: Great. Do you have any memories about your dorm experience that you'd like to share?

ED: Any memories of, oh, that I'd like to share at the dorm?

FH: Yes.

ED: Oh. I liked my roommate. And we lived up in the top floor. Of course, no elevators. But that was fine. I still am in touch with two of my, the remaining two of my classmates that lived on that floor. There aren't very many of us alive anymore.

FH: And which two people are you in touch with still?

ED: Alice Kanagaki and Fung Scholz.

FH: Great.

ED: It was Alice Noguchi and Fung Wong.

FH: And what about the food in the dorm and at the hospital? Can you tell me a little bit about the food?

ED: About the clinical experience in the hospital?

FH: I'm on the food.

ED: The food?

FH: Yes. In your dorm and in the hospital.

ED: Well, I didn't think it was so hot. But my friends thought it was great. So I guess it's a matter of opinion.

FH: And what were some of the social and recreational activities that you and your friends took part in?

6:35

ED: There were, you know, I really don't remember anything special about it. There were some activities. I know Alice will remember those better than I.

FH: So then moving on towards your education at Madison General, can you describe some of the lab skill education that you engaged in?

ED: The education, I thought, was rather easy. The book education, you want to 00:07:00call it, I thought it was pretty simple. I don't remember anything particularly special about it. Except this, I suppose I shouldn't say, but when it came to surgical nursing, I thought the lady was dumb, so I never even considered surgical nursing.

FH: I'm sorry, can you repeat that last part?

ED: I never even considered surgical nursing because I thought the teacher was dumb.

FH: Oh, I see. So what were your classes like, then?

ED: Well, they were taught generally in the dorms. They were not difficult classes. Pleasant teachers. I thought there was more emphasis on getting 00:08:00clinical experience in the hospital than on the classes.

FH: And which did you prefer, the class setting or the clinical setting?

ED: They were both all right. They were both good.

FH: Were there any particularly challenging aspects?

ED: Particularly challenging?

FH: Yeah.

ED: No.

FH: No? And what about the faculty? Were there any notable faculty that played an important role in your education?

ED: I thought the faculty was reasonably good. I have no complaints about any of them.

FH: Sure. What about outside resources for preparing for your clinical experiences or your in-class experiences?

ED: My clinical experiences outside of Madison General?

FH: I mean preparing outside of the classroom setting. Were there places that 00:09:00you would study, or resources that you obtained?

9:08

ED: Oh, outside of the, I guess I don't really know what you're asking there.

FH: When you weren't in class or in the practical experience setting--

ED: Yeah.

FH: --how did you study and prepare for your educational experience?

ED: Well, I didn't.

FH: So the majority of the preparation was while you were in the classroom?

ED: I didn't do anything special for any of the classes.

FH: I see. So, will you tell me a bit about your clinical experience and anything you remember from that?

ED: My clinical experience was very good. I think we were very necessary in the hospital because of the shortage of nurses. In fact, when I was there six 00:10:00months, one night I was alone on the floor. Of course there was a rotating supervisor in case I had trouble. But that's an example of how shorthanded the hospitals were. The clinical experience otherwise was very good. We did a lot more than nurses would do nowadays. We did the whole thing. We did the bed baths. And when the patients left, we cleaned the units. There was just nobody else. We boiled the enema tubes. We have to remember, we didn't have all of the [unclear] then. We didn't have rubber gloves, so we had to learn to do catheterizations with forceps. It was a very different world than it is now with 00:11:00all the plastic, all of the tubes that had to be cleaned, IV tubes, and then packed up and sterilized. There was just very little throwaway.

FH: I see. And did you ever go to Chicago hospitals during your time at Madison General?

11:21

ED: Yes. I went to Chicago for psych and peds at Cook County Hospital. That was kind of an interesting experience for a person who had grown up in a rural community. The neighborhood was not very good at that point. And we were supposed to stay, if we went out at night, we were always supposed to have two of us. We stayed at this dorm. There was a long tunnel that led over to the hospital. Kind of a grim thing. The experience, I don't think, was impressive. I 00:12:00don't think either the classwork or the clinicals were impressive. I think the clinicals back at Madison General were better.

FH: Were there other differences that you noticed between Cook County Hospital and Madison General?

ED: Well, it's a rather different hospital situation because one, you have a county hospital with a great deal of poverty patients. And of course psych, we didn't have any psych patients at Madison General. You had more single, double rooms, you had less wards at Madison General than you had at Cook County.

FH: I see. Do you have any notable memories of patient interaction during your 00:13:00time in nursing school?

ED: Any memories of my special options?

FH: Of your patient interactions.

ED: Oh, my patient interactions. Oh. Well, I had very nice patients and they all reacted, I think, very well. I don't have any recollection of any great problems with patients.

FH: Were there any procedures or experiences that you enjoyed more or less during your clinicals?

ED: I think one thing I really enjoyed was taking care of an old, crabby lady that nobody wanted to take care of. And we got along well. And she told me, "You see beauty in everything." That was one of the nice compliments of my life.

FH: That's lovely. And what about any practices or methods you learned during 00:14:00your time at Madison General Hospital? Do you think any of those would be considered unusual today?

14:14

ED: Well, I think the things, there's a lot of differences in the hospitals nowadays. And when we were in training, we kind of laugh now. We used to take all the flowers out of patients' rooms at night and set them outside the door. Goodness knows what for. We gave more service, I think, because we considered, people stayed in bed longer after surgery, and stayed in the hospital longer. An appendectomy nowadays would go home as an outpatient. And stayed in the hospital for a while when I was in training. So in a sense, I think the patients now in 00:15:00the hospital are considerably sicker than they were then.

FH: What about your experience with some of the doctors?

ED: Well, of course, we jumped up when the doctors came to the charging table, we had to jump up. You know, doctors were always sort of gods. Maybe one step below God, but not much further down. But they were all pleasant to me.

FH: Was there any particular challenges in terms of working with the doctors? Or was it all largely pleasant?

ED: Were there any what?

FH: Any challenges that you encountered?

ED: No.

FH: Any other notable experiences in regards to your nursing education that you'd like to describe?

ED: Oh, well, one of the interesting things I think about our dorm was that you 00:16:00couldn't have a radio or a phonograph in your room. That was just not allowed. Well, I got a radio and a phonograph as a gift and I convinced, I had to talk to the head people and convince them that if we didn't have a radio, we couldn't keep up with the news and that would be unfair. So we were then allowed to have radios.

FH: Wow.

ED: One thing that was interesting about dorm life that you would never see now, Madison General, of course, is not affiliated with any religion. But we always had chapel in the morning. And you went down and sang a few hymns and said the "Our Father." I remember very distinctly. We wouldn't allow that.

17:10

FH: And was that the largest part of religion in the nursing school? Or were there other elements of religion in your education?

ED: I guess you didn't have to go to chapel. But it was pleasant.

FH: Were there any sort of outside activities like that in terms of the nursing school?

ED: Well, they had us learn to swim at the Y. I can't really remember any other, my buddy with a good memory, Alice Kanagaki, would remember far more about those things than I would.

FH: Do you have any other particular memories in your classes?

ED: Memories of my classes? No. Not really.

FH: No problem. Is there anything else you'd like to touch on about your education?

ED: I did enjoy very much my affiliation with Madison General, Madison Visiting Nurse Service. And actually I went back there immediately after graduation to work.

FH: Can you tell me about your experience with the Madison Visiting Nurse Service?

ED: Oh, I loved Madison Visiting Nurse Service. I went from the Capitol out to the rivers or the canals. And it was not a very wealthy place at that time. There was, the nursing homes were really inadequate. In fact, some I had to go in to give the shots, if they needed, I think it was a liver shot, I had to go 00:19:00in and do it. Williamson Street, which now Madison is quite perky, and quite different. Williamson Street was very poor and not the most desirable place to either do business or have work. I had some very special people that I liked. I especially remember a young lady who wasn't much older than I was who had cancer of the face. And it had consumed, the tumor was obvious, and it had consumed half her face. And I would go in and change her bandage. Her name was Dawn. And eventually she turned over in bed and broke a bone and had to go back to the hospital. That was a really sad, sad situation.

FH: Did you continue to work with her after she went back to the hospital?

ED: No. No. Not after she was in the hospital. I never worked back at Madison General or any hospital in Madison.

FH: How long did you stay with the Madison Visiting Nurse Service?

ED: I stayed a couple of years, and then I went over to Milwaukee Public Health, did public health for the city.

FH: Can you tell me a bit about that experience?

ED: That was interesting. I had a, I guess I would call it a mixed district at that time, between African Americans and white it was changing. This was before the freeways went through, so there were three little schools I had. Saint Joseph's, which was a Catholic school and larger, and two little Lutheran schools, Saint John and I don't know what the other name was. But everybody was very pleasant who worked there. And I really liked, I really liked public 00:21:00health. I really enjoyed it. It was interesting. You have interesting experiences like I went into one house and it was the second floor. And there in the hallway was this buggy. And in the buggy was a dead rat. Just things like that stick in your mind a little bit.

FH: (laughs) Yeah. What other parts of public health do you enjoy?

21:31

ED: I enjoyed all of public health. It was, I enjoyed both visiting nurse work and the city. Either one. Both of them, I enjoyed. But then I got married and we moved to Minneapolis and I worked in the hospital for three months before we had, my husband was a field engineer. And we had to go, we had to move down to 00:22:00Ohio. But I enjoyed those three months at Minneapolis.

FH: Can you describe your day to day role at Milwaukee Public Health? What kinds of jobs and tasks were you involved in?

ED: At Milwaukee Public Health, you had a district. And I serviced the schools in the district. I would go in and see what their needs were. Sometimes there would be a kid that cut themselves, that they would send down. It was a pretty poor, there was a lot of poverty in that district. And you had what we called gray slips. And they were slips about the babies that were born. So if you had time, you checked on these babies, whether they were being adequately cared for. 00:23:00That was, I also, when I started at the health department, I did immunization clinics first, where they would go to schools and offer immunizations. And the doctor would do them, but they had a nurse there to assist them. I did that probably for three months. It was interesting. You saw a lot of different areas of Milwaukee.

FH: And how did your nursing education serve you in this role?

ED: Oh, the nursing education was a great help to me in my life.

FH: In what other ways?

ED: Pardon?

FH: In what other ways was it a great help in your life?

ED: Well, it got me out of Kewaunee, which I wanted to. It got me into a profession, which I really liked, even though I didn't expect it. It gave me very pleasant times, both in training and in my jobs. I really, really am grateful to the cadet nurse corps.

FH: Can you tell me more about the cadet nurse corps and what that entailed?

ED: Well, we had our uniforms. And we had a stipend. We got a certain amount. I can't remember, I think it was 20 dollars a month. We got our uniforms for the hospital. And we got them laundered, and we got room and board. So basically, we just had no expenses. It was a great way to get an education.

FH: And how many other people were part of the nurse cadet corps?

ED: I can't answer that. I don't really know. I would say that most of my class, maybe not all, but a good share of my class did exactly what I did. They joined the cadet nurse corps because they could get an education.

25:31

FH: And was it a selective process, if you recall?

ED: Would you say that again, please?

FH: Do you recall that it was a selective process?

ED: I've lost you. Speak up a little. I seem to be losing you.

FH: My apologies. Was it a selective process to be chosen in the nurse cadet corps?

ED: Sorry, there was some outside noise on that one.

FH: It's okay. Was it a selective process?

ED: Was it--it was a very good process.

FH: Was it competitive, I mean?

ED: Competitive? I never felt a great deal of competition.

FH: So can you tell me a bit more about your career as a nurse, and maybe your three months in Minneapolis?

ED: Well, my career as a nurse, I enjoyed both, I've always enjoyed it. In Minneapolis, I worked just as a floor nurse. And it was very good to be back in the hospital. Visiting Nurse Service, because there were some patients you saw every week, those were really fun. There was an old lady who every morning she would lay out breakfast for me when she knew I was coming. And one time when I was on vacation, another nurse came, Irish nurse with a great sense of humor. 00:27:00And she said, "Sure, as soon as she saw you weren't there, she picked up all the goodies and shoved them in the cupboard and I didn't get anything."

There was another patient that made, I was going to a costume party and they made beautiful, I was going as an angel, probably mis--I don't suppose I really was an angel, but they made beautiful wings for me. Patients were very good to me.

You had a different relationship, of course, with people when you were in Madison versus Milwaukee. Because in Madison, there were a number of patients that you just did routinely.

FH: What other differences did you notice between Madison and Milwaukee?

28:02

ED: It's just a different, a whole different type of public health nursing. In 00:28:00visiting nursing, you're still doing some hands-on nursing. You're still giving shots. You're doing daily bath demonstrations. There's more, you're changing bandages, for instance. In Milwaukee, it's more of checking whether babies are ill, people are taking care of their children, or checking if there were needs. Maybe setting up an eye clinic or helping with an eye clinic at a school. So it's much less hands-on nursing.

FH: And what did you like about the hands-on nursing?

ED: I liked the people. I just had nice patients.

FH: Did you get to have those personal experiences when you worked in Milwaukee?

ED: Milwaukee I enjoyed public health, but it was different. It just, you know, it was much less hands-on. Maybe a kid came down with a cut on his hand or something. And you knew there was no use sending them home to get something, so you'd soak it and bandage it. But it wasn't very frequent.

FH: And what other roles did you have at Milwaukee Public Health?

ED: That's it.

FH: I see. So you mentioned that you moved to Ohio after you lived in Minnesota.

ED: Yeah. I didn't work anymore because not only was I pregnant, but my husband 00:30:00was a field engineer and he could be transferred at a moment's notice. So there was really no way for me to work in nursing. And then I had nine kids. So there was [unclear] working at nursing except at home.

FH: What, if anything, did you miss most about your nursing experience?

ED: What did I like most of it?

FH: Or did you miss most about being a nurse when you--

ED: Oh, what I missed being a nurse?

FH: Yes.

ED: I don't think I had time to miss anything.

FH: I see.

ED: We had to move a great deal because of my husband's job. I think I moved ten times within the first ten years I was married.

FH: Do you recall any major challenges in your career as a nurse? Or was it all pretty steady?

ED: It was all pretty good. I don't think there were major challenges.

31:20

FH: What about any memorable moments in your career?

ED: Any memorable moments. Well, I told you one about Dawn. That was a memorable moment. Hmm. Maybe the other really kind of sad memorable moment was I went out to check out a baby and he was running just a low-grade fever but he didn't look sick. But I asked her to call the doctor. But the kid died with that instant crib death. That's not very happy to go back and try to console people for that. 00:32:00But most of my memorable moments are just happy.

FH: That's great. Did you ever return to Madison?

ED: No. Not as a nurse. I've been in Madison a great deal, but I've never worked at Madison.

FH: And you mentioned keeping in touch with your classmates.

ED: Yes. We used to have a round robin. One would write it and then you'd stick it in an envelope and you'd send, the next person would get it and we'd just keep sending the envelope around. And of course now we're down to only three of us that, the round robin doesn't really work with only three people. (laughs) Especially I'm rather close to one and we email all the time.

FH: Do you have any different recollections of your time at Madison General?

ED: Any different recollections? No. It was always good. I have one funny recollection. There was a gal in my class named Wilma. And the doctor asked her, when they were on the floor, he said, "Well, what's your name?" And she said, "Wilma. But everybody calls me Willie."

So the next day she's down waiting for an elevator. And the doctor comes along and swats her on the bottom and says, "Hello, Willie!"

Only the superintendent of nursing was around the corner and said, "Miss Hoffman, you will come to my office." And then she was told, "Nice girls do not 00:34:00let doctors swat them on the bottom." (laughs) We've always laughed about that one.

FH: Wow. Can you think of any advice you'd have to nursing students today?

34:15

ED: Nursing is very different today, I'm sure. Patients are sicker. I noticed when my husband had a nurse come in for a while before he died, I think visiting nurses do more than we did. And they have little wheeled carts that they come in, they bring their bag in. We just carried ours. One thing, of course this is very different. When I was a visiting nurse, I carried a syringe and a needle. And I had to boil the syringe and the needle if I was going to give a shot at the patient's house. You'd never do that nowadays.

FH: How did you set up? When you went to the patient's house, was there a 00:35:00certain procedure for that?

ED: No. Just use your common sense.

FH: Was there anything else that you'd like to touch on about your experience?

ED: Well, I think nursing is a great career. My niece is a nurse. My granddaughter's a nurse. There's nurses in the family. And I think there's always a certain bonding between nurses. Even if they didn't know each other, there seems to be an instant bonding when we say, "I was a nurse."

FH: And what advice do you give your niece and granddaughter?

ED: My granddaughter works, of course, she's through school. And I didn't 00:36:00influence her. She did that by herself.

FH: Where is she getting her nursing education?

ED: She got her nursing, she took her first at. What is it called? It's a vocational school in Sheboygan. Lakeshore Tech. And then she went on to Marion College and got her degree.

FH: Are there any differences that you notice when she talks about her nursing education in comparison to yours?

ED: She doesn't talk very much about her nursing education. But I think there were, I think probably they know more. And I think they probably have more what I'd say book learning and less clinical experience. Whereas we had more clinical experience, that was emphasized. They needed us. And probably a little less book work.

FH: What are the advantages and disadvantages of both clinical experience and book work?

ED: The advantages of what?

FH: The advantages and disadvantages of book work, versus the advantages and disadvantages of clinical experience?

37:20

ED: Oh. Well, I think clinical experience is very important. In fact, I had another granddaughter that had another degree in Spanish and decided she would go to UW and take that two-year course where you became a nurse. And she complained very much about her clinical experience. She just didn't think it was adequate.

FH: In what ways?

ED: Yes. Oh, yes. Definitely when I heard what she did.

FH: In what ways did she say it was inadequate?

ED: There just wasn't enough of it. And probably, I think just basically that she felt there wasn't enough clinical experience.

FH: Did you feel as though you were at a disadvantage by having less of the book experience?

ED: No. No. I think we all were pretty good nurses.

FH: And what do you think you learned most in the clinical experience realm?

ED: I think you learned just how to take care of patients.

FH: And what would you say makes a good nurse?

ED: Kindness.

FH: Why?

ED: Kindness, ability to recognize, to be aware of symptoms. To listen to patients.

FH: Is there anything else that you'd like to touch on in regards to your education or career?

ED: I don't think so. I thought it was very, I thought, I liked Madison General. I thought we had an adequate education. And I enjoyed nursing when I did it both the short time in the hospital and certainly both of my public health, of course nowadays, even if I'd wanted to go back to work, things changed so fast in medicine and with meds. You couldn't do it. You'd have to take a refresher course. I mean, I'm looking back a ways. Not when I'm 95.

FH: Is there anything else you'd like to say on this interview, then?

ED: No. I think that's all.

FH: Great. Well then, this concludes our oral history interview. Thank you so much, Ellen.

ED: You're very welcome. Bye bye.

40:15

[End Interview.]