Interview with Mitzi Duxbury

SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #

DUXBURY, MITZI

DUXBURY, MITZI (19-)

Nursing student

At UW:

Interviewed: 2019

Interviewer: Faith Hoffmeyer

Index by: Sophie Clark

Transcribed by: Teresa Bergen

Length: 76 minutes

First Interview Session (December 9, 2019): Digital File

00:00:00

FH: Okay. Today is December 9, 2019. My name is Faith Hoffmeyer and this is a phone interview for the Madison General Hospital School of Nursing Oral History Project. And Mitzi, can you please spell your first and last name for an audio check?

MD: M-i-t-z-i D-u-x-b-u-r-y.

FH: Great. Thank you. So, to start, can you please give me a little bit of background regarding your early life? Where you were born and where you grew up?

MD: Well, I was born in New Jersey and I grew up in Wisconsin.

FH: Where in Wisconsin?

MD: In Cambria. A little village northeast of here.

FH: And what did your parents do?

MD: Well, my biological father was killed in the labor union wars in 00:01:00Philadelphia. And that's how I happened to move to Wisconsin. And when he was young, he was a steelworker. And my mother was a homemaker. And then when my father got a little older, he had a business and he had these great big cranes, you know? That he ran. So that was it.

FH: How old were you when you moved to Wisconsin?

MD: About eighteen months.

FH: And did you have any siblings?

MD: I had an older sister, a younger sister, and then I had two three-quarters 00:02:00sisters, I guess. My mother remarried my father's brother.

FH: And growing up, was there anything in your background that guided you to a career towards nursing?

MD: I don't know. When I was a little kid, I guess I just always wanted to be a nurse. And there weren't, that was in the '30s. You were either a teacher, a nurse, a secretary or a homemaker. That was it. Pretty much.

02:40

FH: And did the prospect of being a nurse excite you?

MD: Oh, yeah. Still does.

FH: And was nursing a popular career in your community?

MD: Well, I guess it was, with the other three. Mostly homemakers, I think.

FH: I see. What was your perception of nursing school prior to attending?

MD: Gee, I don't know. I think it was kind of high. I thought you were kind of important and learned a lot. I think it was kind of a status thing.

FH: Can you talk a bit more about that?

MD: Well, I read books on it. I just decided, everybody decided kind of when they were young what they were going to do. Pretty much. And I read a lot. So it 00:04:00was kind of exciting.

FH: And around what age did you think that you knew you wanted to become a nurse?

MD: Oh. Three or four.

FH: So did you have any experience with the nursing cadet program?

MD: No. I never heard of it. I didn't hear of it until you mentioned it.

FH: Okay. So moving toward your life in Madison, what years did you attend nursing school?

MD: Well, I was, I had just turned seventeen when I graduated from high school. It was the end of April, and I turned seventeen. And then, I think there were a couple of us, not from my home town, necessarily, that went to work at the

Portage Divine Savior Hospital as aides until we entered in the fall. Madison General.

FH: And what did you do there as an aide?

MD: Well mostly we took care of the sick nuns that were old and retired. We were on the floor sometimes, and we wrapped bandages. Things an aide might do.

FH: I'm sorry?

MD: Things a nursing aide might do today.

FH: And what was that experience like? Did you enjoy it?

MD: Yeah. There were other young girls there from other parts of the state. We were about, maybe eight of us. So we had a good time.

FH: And reverting back to high school, do you remember what your favorite academic subject was?

MD: My favorite academic subject. No. Probably English. I don't know, I don't think I had a favorite. I was really active in high school. We had all sorts of clubs. A photo club, and I was a cheerleader and I was in the band and I was in the glee club, and I was in the--I was just very busy.

FH: Wow. Were any of the clubs related to nursing?

MD: No. Nothing related to nursing.

FH: And after you left Portage Divine Savior Hospital, what year was it when you 00:07:00got to Madison General?

07:07

MD: Nineteen forty-nine, the fall. We were only there for the summer.

FH: Okay. And what were your first impressions of Madison?

MD: Well, I'd been to Madison many times, so I don't know, I wasn't, we used to come down to football games and stuff like that. I was comfortable with it.

FH: And how large was your class?

MD: Huh. Good question. About forty.

FH: And do you remember the divide between men and women?

MD: Well, yeah. There was a big divide. For example, I wasn't, I was attending 00:08:00Madison General, not the university. But we had courses at the university right the first semester. And I learned that I couldn't be in the marching band. No women were in the band. They didn't allow women in the band in 1949. And the programs in the graduate schools and all that were pretty much had quotas. You know, 7 percent in medicine, 4 percent in sociology or, those aren't accurate numbers. But about that. So there was very much, I don't know, we just kind of 00:09:00accepted it.

FH: And do you remember how many men were in your class?

MD: There weren't any men in our class.

FH: Oh, it was all women.

MD: All women.

FH: And did you live in the dorms?

MD: Well, we lived, you know where McConnell Hall is. There was a building right behind it. I think it was called Rest Harrow. And the students, the nursing students were in McConnell Hall or Rest Harrow. And then they tore that down, and everybody was in McConnell Hall.

FH: And what was the experience like in McConnell Hall?

MD: It was fun. Well there was kind of three or four big living rooms in the 00:10:00front. And one was very formal. And then it became less formal. And they were very strict. They had all sorts of rules that I wasn't used to. You know, you had to sign in and out. And there was a curfew. You had to be in at a certain time. And certain things you couldn't do and certain things you could do. It changed a lot over the years. And we played a lot of cards, a lot of social activities, all girls, in the spare time, which you didn't have much of. Then 00:11:00they had, there were all sorts of rules. Like you went to the hospital for your meals. And there you had a little box that either had your name or number on it, which was for your napkin.

11:27

FH: Hmm.

MD: Yeah. (laughter) You had to use these big white napkins. And you had to use them over again. Well, I don't know how long. Every three or four days I suppose they changed them. And you couldn't make a lot of racket. But you could choose who you ate with. And then one day a month you ate with the director of nursing. 00:12:00Of the school, I mean. She would check your manners.

FH: Wow. (laughs)

MD: Yeah. And then you put your folded napkin up a certain way and you put it back in the box. Well, that was unusual. And then every now and then we had to eat with the hospital director. They were all women. Women ran the hospital, a woman was director of nursing. What's her name, Grace, I think, was the director of nursing. Or the director of the hospital. One or the other. And you always 00:13:00showed deference to them. And there was no running or screaming or loud stuff or any of that. That was kind of different for me. But in general, you made very good friends and some of my friends today. And you studied hard. I think the first semester we took microbiology at the university, and we were right in with university students. And some other course. I forget. We took two science courses there. And then the second semester, I think we had anatomy and physiology. I don't remember if we had it there, but the lab, anatomy and 00:14:00physiology lab was at McConnell Hall. Yeah. And at the same time, we were taking some beginning nursing courses, which included stuff that a housekeeper would do today.

FH: Like what?

14:33

MD: Wipe down the bed after a patient left. Strip it. Make it. Let's see. I guess that was the only housekeeping kind of job we did. But they kind of depended on students for that. And we had some really excellent instructors. And 00:15:00one that was really kind of the laugh of all the students, she was so bad.

FH: Do you remember who?

MD: Yes, I do. But I'm not going to say it.

FH: That's okay. Well, before we get into more about your education, can you talk a bit about what it was like having the meal once a month with the hospital director?

MD: Oh, we were kind of frightened. I mean, not scaredy boo hoo, but we had those type of things. Then they had like a formal tea once a month in McConnell Hall with a big tea service. They did not want us all to be animals, I guess. So, add a little culture. I think the first time, I don't think I was frightened 00:16:00or intimidated at all. Anyway.

FH: Did you mean at the formal tea, or with the meal with the director?

MD: We had a meal with the director.

FH: And you weren't intimidated?

MD: No, I wasn't at all. I don't know why.

FH: And was it one on one?

MD: No. There were other, I guess there were staff nurses or supervisors or something. And she just kind of asked, she was very gentle and kind and asked you a few questions. And that was it. So, anyway, it was a little bit, that part 00:17:00of it was a little more formal.

FH: And what was the food like?

MD: Food was good. I thought it was good. Everybody gained weight, then they had to lose it, because you could eat as much as you wanted to. So we stuffed ourselves with all sorts of good things. But the food was pretty good.

FH: And you mentioned playing cards in your dorm. What other social or recreational activities were you engaged with?

MD: There wasn't much. We'd had some with the churches on campus and their youth groups and so on. There wasn't much room there. It was all buildings. There was 00:18:00a grade school across the street from McConnell Hall. And you were really very busy. You had kind of a heavy academic load, and then you had to study. So, you studied.

FH: So what were your classes like?

MD: Well, classes were mostly taught, the nursing classes, a lot of them were taught by the physicians that were on staff at Madison General. And the classes 00:19:00were not difficult, but there was a lot of stuff that you had to commit to memory. It wasn't hard, it was just volume.

FH: And what about the lab skill part of your education?

19:32

MD: [unclear] on campus. I'm trying to figure out what, I don't know, what do you mean what about it? Did we, I know I worked on a leg in physiology to track nerves and stuff. And I remember. Oh, I know, we had chemistry. Chemistry at the 00:20:00university. And then micro. And then I think the next semester we had anatomy and physiology.

FH: What were some of the differences between classes at Madison General Hospital and the university?

MD: I don't see any difference. I think they were pretty much the same. Well, I don't know if they were different or not. Because most of the class was, I don't think they were any different. No. I thought it was a very good program. In 00:21:00fact, when I went back and had to have some of those credits transferred to get my bachelor's in nursing, I didn't have to take any university courses at all, except public health, which I had not had. So I took that. Then I had to take 120 credits. And we had one course, well, two at the university, I had public health and trends and issues. And that's all the nursing that I had there that I 00:22:00can remember now. Now maybe there was more. But they don't stick out. So then I had a lot of kind of free time where I could--oh, we had to take organic chemistry, that's right. But that wasn't in the nursing school. It was in the chemistry department. I took organic.

FH: Did you enjoy those classes?

MD: Did I what, please?

FH: Did you enjoy those classes?

MD: Well, it would have helped to have organic earlier. But I enjoyed public health very much. I think that was an eight-credit or five-credit course. And we had clients we had to see and all that. I liked public health. And trends and 00:23:00issues, that poor instructor. Because most of that was a class for nurses returning to get their baccalaureate. And we were a very feisty group. So--(laughs)

FH: In what ways?

MD: We were very challenging. And the instructor, very good instructor, tried to guide us on this, and we had all these other experiences that we brought in and wanted to discuss. But she rode easily with it. (laughs) It wasn't hard at all. 00:24:00I think it was hard to be an instructor in that particular course.

FH: And you mentioned earlier that you worked on a leg to track nerves?

24:20

MD: On a what?

FH: On a leg, did you say?

MD: A leg.

FH: A leg.

MD: Yeah, they gave me a leg to work on.

FH: Can you tell me a bit about that?

MD: Well, it was just a leg, and we dissected the muscle and we identified the nerve and tried to follow things down and the vessels down and so on. That was kind of fun. That lab always smells badly, though. (FH laughs) So. Some of the students didn't like it. I thought it was really interesting.

FH: Do you remember any faculty who played an important role in your education?

MD: Yeah, some. Mrs. Allen was an excellent, she was a fulltime teacher at Madison General. We had a lot of different teachers. And then the physicians played a good part. I don't remember a lot of them. But I remember that Mrs. Allen, she was an excellent teacher. And then when we were on the units, I think it was a faculty member somewhere around. But mostly it was the head nurses and 00:26:00the staff nurses that were watching us. So. We all got through. Well, most of us. I think we lost, we probably lost a half a dozen. They quit. Yeah.

FH: Oh, wow. Were there any resources available to nursing students outside of the classroom?

MD: You mean financial resources?

FH: Academic resources.

MD: Well, I don't recall any. There may have been. There may have been. Yeah. I was a pretty good student. And things were not that difficult for me. So I don't remember any academic resources. If there were, I did not use them or didn't use 00:27:00them often. I don't remember any being there. So usually you went to other classmates, I think.

FH: Hmm. What were other ways that you studied and prepared?

MD: Well, you had little private rooms. Well, after the first year. Some students had to double up during the first year. When they were at Rest Harrow or, and I don't know. Just like I shut my door and have it quiet. Do what I have to do. That was about it.

FH: And were there--

MD: We worked very hard. I mean, study-wise, everybody worked hard.

28:18

FH: Well, was there anything particularly challenging that you remember?

MD: Organic. Let's see. Well, it was challenging jumping out of a little high school into a big university micro class. But you know, you get used to that. It was kind of fun. Yeah, I think that was it. We worked hard for all three years. Students worked hard.

FH: And you mentioned earlier a bit about your experience on the units. Can you 00:29:00talk a little more about that?

MD: The what on the units?

FH: Your practical experience in the hospital, working with patients.

MD: Oh, yeah.

FH: During your education. Can you tell me a bit about that experience?

MD: Well, they ease you in very gently. And at that time, on evenings, I think we had to work two night shifts a year. And that was a whole different experience. And then they started us out bathing, giving bed baths to patients. We had a lot of that. And then at night, I wish they did that now. Everybody got 00:30:00their bed straightened out and got a back rub, a good check over at night. Yeah. That was part of the regular nursing function. Everybody did that. So we as students did that, also. Which was very nice, and appreciated by patients. Everybody had a back rub. And got ready for bed.

FH: You said--oops, sorry. Keep going.

MD: No, go ahead.

FH: You said that the two night shifts a year were a whole different experience. In what ways were they?

MD: Well, I don't think I'd ever stayed up all night, number one. (laughter) And 00:31:00some of the nurses there were permanent night nurses. I mean, they liked to work nights. That was their shift. And they were so smart. And knew so much. Mine was in the nursery, with babies. And the nurses there, I remember this one, her name was Miss Joyce. And she, there were about twenty babies in the nursery. And she knew so much about babies. She would hear a baby go, "Bup!" and she knew if it had a fever, if it was sick, if it had gas, if it was hungry, if it was in pain. 00:32:00She just would hear a little bleep from them and she knew right away what to do. I've never seen anything like it, and we never will again. And I thought later in my career that if someone could have captured that in their research, how much better care babies would be having. She knew if it was wrapped too tight or wrapped too loose, and which one wanted to be wrapped loose and which one wanted to be wrapped tightly. And most of the people that worked permanent shifts with a given population were like that. They just got to know everything and got all 00:33:00these subtle signs and symptoms which is just lost today. So that was quite an experience. She'd say, "Wrap that one." She'd just hear one little, "Bup!" No babies crying, everything peaceful and quiet. She was amazing. Of course, she'd been doing that for forty years. But there's a lot lost by not having people listen and observe. So anyway, that was an amazing part of my night experience.

34:11

FH: And what did you learn from her?

MD: I could have stayed there ten years and not know everything she knew. She observed and she listened. And she loved babies. I don't know, it was an amazing experience. Just amazing. I don't think we have that today. E have lab work and all that. Well, they had a lot of lab work, too. But just observation over time 00:35:00makes a huge difference.

FH: And you said that they edged you in pretty gently into the practical experience. What did you do as it got a bit more challenging?

MD: I started giving medications. That I never cared for so much. Neither did the patients. And injections. Just the regular nursing stuff.

FH: And why didn't you care for it as much?

MD: Well, because it hurt patients. They don't like injections and stuff.

FH: Can you talk about your relationship with patients at Madison General?

MD: Well, let's see. You had to be careful with the young men.

FH: Why was that?

MD: They're always looking. They can be sick as a dog and still looking for women. Well see, I kind of grew up in that community where you interact with the middle-age and old age people all the time. So I didn't, it's kind of a retired farmer community. And there weren't too many kids in the town. So everybody was 00:37:00kind of special.

FH: So how did that serve you, growing up in a community like that? As a nurse.

MD: I'm very comfortable with all ages.

FH: Was there a certain age group you preferred to work with more than the other?

MD: I like old people and I like babies. Yeah.

37:29

FH: Why?

MD: Well, babies change so often. And you have to kind of study them to know their needs. And meet them. So I think they're the most interesting group, are 00:38:00the babies.

FH: What about old people?

MD: Well, most of them are just kind and once in a while you get somebody crabby. And you have to look at ways to make them happy and comfortable. They're not as much of an intellectual challenge as babies are. What do you like? Do you like babies?

FH: I think I like babies. (laughter) So how did Madison General teach you about bedside manners?

MD: Well, you had to have bedside manners or they wouldn't let you on. I don't 00:39:00know. I think there was just, we didn't have this divides and anti-culture stuff, and everything we've got now. You had to just try to teach everybody what they need to be. I think it's harder now. I don't know. It just seems like it is. But you treat everybody with dignity no matter what. And if they get harsh or something with you, you learn to eat it. You know, you just take it. And they're under your care. So you just try to make them happy.

FH: Why do you think it's harder now?

MD: Well, I think the country is so divided. And I know we went through all this black/white stuff when I was older. But it didn't seem to, it didn't seem to be there when you were caring for patients when I was younger. It just--here's a person that's sick. And then later, it changed and became more demanding. And you had to adjust to that. Although we had no, there were all white in our 00:41:00class. And, but my father was very liberal. So I didn't have that, any adverse attitudes about people of other colors and stuff. So that was good. No, I thought it was a very, very good program.

FH: Were there any practices or methods you learned that you think might be considered unusual today?

41:46

MD: Oh. That's a good question. Things that were unusual. Huh. I think you got a lot closer to some patients. And then, well, it took a lot more care because you 00:42:00didn't have the beds that raised themselves, and you didn't have all that stuff. So you spent more time, I think, in the room. And then they had semi-private and four-bed wards. And all the drapes and commotion and the junk that sat around there. So I think there was probably less privacy for the patients.

FH: Do you have any other notable memories from your time at Madison General?

MD: Well, there was a ceremony when you graduated. They jumped into a pool and ripped their uniforms off.

FH: Oh, really?

MD: Yeah. We all had uniforms, and they were done by the hospital laundry. So we didn't have to worry about that. And you had white shoes and white stockings and you wore a cap. You could tell a nurse from other personnel. Now you can't. Unless you read their little, their little sign. You know, their little name badge or whatever. And what was the question again?

FH: Just any other notable memories of your time at Madison General.

MD: Well, we had a really good time. It was a good social group that worked hard 00:44:00and studied hard, and it just seemed to go by very quickly. And being close to the campus, we were part of campus activities. I don't know. We had a really good time and learned a lot and worked hard. Met a lot of really nice people. So, I wonder if there was anything outstanding. Signing in and out.

Oh, we had a really good time in Chicago. We spent nine months, or seven months in Chicago at Cook County Hospital. And we had pediatrics down there. And we had 00:45:00psych. And we had communicable disease. And we just had a blast when we got to the city. We had a curfew there, but they had seven hundred or nine hundred students that were affiliated, that came down. And that was a time before when they still had polio. And I had some patients on the iron lung. And were some left totally paralyzed. Yeah, that was something else. And I just remember the 00:46:00World Series was on and we were adjusting the mirrors so the paralyzed patients, mostly young children, young teenagers, could see it. Then they had this gigantic room for the babies with whooping cough that was a steam room. And it was all, it was hard working in there because it was all steam. I could hardly see across the room. That was for the babies. And then Cook County Hospital was, it was like a whole new world opened up into Chicago. We had more fun there. And 00:47:00then we'd go downtown at night, which is only about eight blocks, nine blocks from the hospital. Then we had a ten o'clock curfew. So we'd stop a police car and say, "I'm a student at County. I'm going to miss my sign in." There was some kind of punishment. And they'd put you in their squad car and (siren noise) get you back on time.

And the police there are very, even today, one of them stopped me for speeding. And after I argued with him, he said, "Do you work?" And I said yeah. "What do you do?"

"I'm a nurse."

And he said, "Well, don't you know Chicago policemen do not give tickets to nurses?" (FH laughs) And that's true.

FH: Wow.

MD: Because they're there every night, and have seven or eight stabbings and a bunch of gunshot wounds. And their emergency room is just--well, that's the way it was then. Now they've all gone private and closed the county hospital. It's all different now. But the police have great respect for nurses in Chicago. So remember that if you're speeding, the first thing you tell them is you're a nurse going to see somebody. (laughter)

And then the head nurse in psych got murdered when we were there. Yeah. I wasn't doing psych then, I was in pediatrics. But the pediatric experience, anything a 00:49:00child had, anything, was there. And you had experience with it. And they had plenty of staff because they had so many students.

But we learned there, it was great, about classical theater, classical music, because those are all really close. And you could get down there. And sometimes some benefactor would leave a bunch of tickets for the students. So you saw some things. But that was a wonderful experience.

Some of the students were scared to death of the city. But we just had a blast. 00:50:00And you met students from diploma schools all over the country. I know the [Taylor?] nurses were there from Mayo. Everybody had a different cap, and you could tell by their caps, and so on. That was really, you had to work hard and study hard. But that was a very unique experience. So. Let's see. What else happened there? Something happened every day. Well, I know I enjoyed that very much. But some of them were too frightened to leave their rooms. I mean, they 00:51:00did their classes and then--and the classes were excellent. They had excellent faculty. They'd do their classes, do their clinical experience, and go back to their room.

But there they had some big celebrations, too, on holidays. And they got out their sterling silver tea sets and all that. It was great fun. And broke up the (laughs) I was going to say monotony of Madison General, but it was never monotonous. Anyway.

So, if you haven't been to County, that was--and the ER, we didn't do ER. But we could go down and watch. Every one of the students pooling around there.

52:10

FH: What was that like, watching the ER?

MD: Oh, it was, well, it's busier than you see ERs on television, I'll tell you that. (laughter) It is just, I don't know. The nurses and, the nurses there were so good. And they knew how to triage immediately. Sometimes it seemed like the house officers were getting in their way and they would shout at them. But they had established senior staff there all the time. But they had a lot of interns and residents and just the house officers. So, anyway, that was quite an 00:53:00experience for all of us. Just living in a big city, number one. And the whole rotating and organization of a large, busy, very busy urban hospital. It was just something else. They were always short of stuff. But I think they served a great public service. Now, I don't know where they go now. But the policing in Chicago can be dangerous work. And every night, several gunshots and stabs and 00:54:00all that stuff, so. But the police like the nurses.

FH: And you said some of your classmates were afraid to be in the city. Were you not afraid? Or what were some ways that you adjusted to being in such a big city?

54:23

MD: Well, as a baby I lived in Chicago. My sister was born in Chicago. And we had a lot of friends down there, my parents. So we visited Chicago often. And I knew a little bit about where the great parks, you know, Grant Park, I don't know, I was never a really fearful person. I was never hesitant to try something new. Some did, I think, they just missed half a life that was very exciting. So, 00:55:00no, my Madison General experience was a very good one. I don't know if we were down there for seven months or nine months, but that's a big hunk of our program. And you had to work hard academically, and then you could run around at night. That was quite an experience for an 18 year-old to be--I just loved it down there. And other people feared going. So, anyway, I still like Chicago. (laughs)

FH: Well after you graduated from Madison General, what did you do?

MD: Oh, I got married. And then I had three children. And then I got divorced. 00:56:00And then I went back to school.

FH: What did you go back to school for?

MD: I got my master's and my PhD here in Madison.

FH: Oh. And what did you get your master's and your PhD in?

MD: Well, they didn't have (dinging sound) Is my time up?

FH: Oh, no. No. Not at all.

MD: Oh. (laughs) I got my master's and PhD in education. I got my PhD in education administration. They didn't have a PhD program in nursing then. And I got my master's in, let's see, educational policy studies. Which was good.

FH: What made you decide to pursue those educational endeavors?

MD: Well, you didn't have a lot of choices. The only program for a doctorate for a female was education.

FH: Wow.

MD: Unless you wanted to, the rest of the programs -- law, medicine, sociology -- all had quotas. And they had like 6 percent. Well, then you really needed your bachelor's in that area. Like if you wanted to be in the 6 percent going 00:58:00into sociology, you really had a preference if you had an undergraduate degree in sociology. So I didn't even apply to those. I just went into education. Several of my friends were going into education. They were females, and that was pretty much the only PhD easily available. I mean, you had to have good grades and all that stuff, they didn't allow any--but education was always open.

And they were the number one ranked school in the country in education administration. So, I did that one.

FH: What did you do after you got your PhD and master's?

MD: Well, I taught for one year at the School of Nursing. And then the March of 00:59:00Dimes headquarters in New York was looking, perinatal was just exploding as a new, separate discipline. And Wisconsin, Colorado, Salt Lake, were kind of the leaders in perinatal. So the March of Dimes was looking for someone in perinatal. So I applied and I got the job. And I went to work for them for five or six years.

And then I kind of missed the academic world. And Minnesota was looking for an 01:00:00assistant dean or associate dean, I don't know what, for the graduate studies in nursing. So I applied there. And I got that job. And then I was there five or six years. And then the University of Illinois at Chicago was looking for a dean. So I applied there and I got that job. And the Chicago has their, a big campus, University of Illinois has a big campus in Chicago as well as Urbana-Champaign. And all of their health programs are headquartered in Chicago. 01:01:00Nursing, medicine, pharmacy, allied health, public health, etcetera, which is a smart thing to do. Madison should have organized that way and had them all in Milwaukee, because that's where the patients are. Here, then you run out of patients. You try to get a patient pool, and you've got three other researchers on the same population. And I just thought of Chicago with millions of people. And that worked out.

And then I came back to Madison as a professor for a few years. And now I'm retired.

1:02:12

FH: What did you like most about teaching students?

MD: I'm not a good teacher. I figured that out.

FH: What makes you say that?

MD: I'm too impatient. I expect too much of them. That's what I think. And I was much better in research and administration. So that's what I did most of the time. And I just, I don't know. I don't think I have enough patience to really work with challenging students. And I try to do better, but never good at that. 01:03:00Some people are just excellent at that. And I've had about, been gifted with a bunch of those. But I don't think I'd like a teacher like me. (laughs) Anyway, that's my life, and I'm sticking to it.

FH: Well, what advice would you give future nursing students?

MD: Say that again, please?

FH: What advice would you give for future nursing students?

MD: Well, you have to be patient. And you have to ensure that they grasp something before they move on to something else that requires this kind of a 01:04:00background. And if the student is having trouble, you've got to kind of find ways to help them through that. And I don't think I'm good at that. So. Anyway.

FH: What makes a great nurse?

MD: Intelligence and compassion.

FH: Great.

MD: I think intelligence and compassion. And they have to have a solid background in nursing. So I think if you have those three things, intelligence, 01:05:00you know your subject matter, compassion, you'll make it all right. So I don't know. Some have too much of one and not enough of another. But, and some people just waltz better with other people. You have to learn how to do that, how to work with difficult people. That's where your compassion comes in. Anyway, it's been a really good life. I'm glad I chose nursing. I'd probably choose it again, 01:06:00even though other options might be open. It was good living in New York, too. I like cities. Sometimes I wish Madison were a bigger city, but--when I was younger, I used to just, and living in Madison, I would just go down to Chicago to get a little city once in a while. So that's the whole story from Madison General. I'll probably remember something very important about Madison General after I hang up. (laughs)

FH: Well, in that case, we can schedule a follow-up as well.

1:06:57

MD: (laughs) Oh, I won't now because I think we've got it all. And there was a, 01:07:00like in any large group, there's an active, very active group, and a quieter group and so on. But all good people. And the ones that are still alive--I'm eighty-seven--so, and most of our classmates are now gone. But the ones that are alive, we still exchange Christmas cards and know each other well. Stay in touch. So it was a good experience. And I don't know, they just didn't get replicated. I guess they were expensive to the hospitals. Then the university felt that they should have a baccalaureate, which is probably true. But at that 01:08:00time, it was a very, very good experience. And Madison General was held in high esteem. There were other diploma schools--(coughs) Excuse me -- in the area. But Madison General is supposedly the best. So. Anyway, I think a good time was had by all. And I think as a class we have contributed a good bit to the care of the community. As I said, we kind of hung together over the years. Which is nice.

FH: Yeah, that's great.

MD: Yeah. Now which year are you?

FH: I am in my final year of my undergraduate. But before we talk a little bit off the recorder, is there anything else you'd like to say in this interview?

MD: Well, I'm eighty-seven now and old. And I was wondering if you have, we tried it for a while many years ago and it didn't work, to have some of the student nurses help the older ones. Do you have any classmates that want to work an hour or two a week and they'll get paid, but--

FH: Well, I'm actually not a nursing student.

MD: Oh, okay.

FH: But I can ask around as well.

MD: Are you in journalism or what?

FH: Yeah, I'm in journalism and political science.

MD: Oh, okay. You're in political science.

FH: Yes. (laughs)

1:10:13

MD: Isn't that fun today?

FH: Quite fun.

MD: (laughs) Yeah, I can't even keep up day to day. So, oh, I thought you were in nursing. Well, I don't think nursing has anything like that anymore. Some schools have that, some don't. Anyway, I could use somebody, if they have it. But if they don't, they don't. I don't know, I may take, if I went back again, I may take a, some kind of a joint major between sociology, nursing and education.

FH: Why would you have done that?

MD: Well, I think, well you do the nursing, but then you have some electives, 01:11:00too, when you have your doctoral. So I have always been interested in sociology. And also political science is an attraction, also. I think if I were, I would be a graduate student my whole life. Are you going to graduate school?

FH: Maybe law school.

MD: Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh. Yeah, I started law school.

FH: Did you?

MD: When I was seventy.

FH: Can you tell me a bit about that? What made you decide to do that?

MD: Well, I had to settle a couple of estates. And I thought holy crap, you know, I don't know anything. But anyway, so I took all the tests. You have to 01:12:00take some tests. I took the tests. I came out quite well. And I did almost a semester. And then I thought, this is, they had a whole different method of teaching. And you really have to learn from the other students. They don't, and they have about four times more reading than it is possible to read. So you have to know how to select things and just read. And then the worst of it, I was having a few health problems and I couldn't make it up that hill. And there's no 01:13:00way to get up the hill.

FH: So that was at UW Madison.

1:13:10

MD: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just walked in one day, I was enjoying certain classes where they had a professor. And then some classes they have a professor, but he just talks about different cases. And not what's expected of you out of that class. So it's a very different, they call it the Socratic Method. But I don't think it is, really. Anyway, and I don't think they treat their students well. So I just walked in and I said, "I quit." I think I'm in good standing. 01:14:00But I didn't go back. I'm glad I didn't. It was just not my cup of tea. So. Although now, with this political situation, I see things and I know some case law and stuff. So I think hey, you, how about this? (laughter)

FH: That will definitely serve you.

MD: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, well that sounds like a good combination for you.

FH: Thank you very much. Well before you hang up, I'm just going to conclude the interview on the recorder. And then I have a couple of things I'd like to talk 01:15:00to you about, if that's okay.

MD: Okay.

FH: Okay. So this concludes our oral history interview. Thank you so much.

1:15:12

[End Interview.]