Interview with Sandra Fernandez

SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM Interview # FERNANDEZ, SANDRA FERNANDEZ, SANDRA (19-)Book Artist At UW: Interviewed: 2018 (3 sessions) Interviewer: Sarah Lange Index by: Sarah Lange Transcribed by: Teresa Bergen Length: 2 hours, 35 minutes First Interview Session (May 16, 2018): Digital File 00:00:00 SL: Okay. Today is May 16, 2018. I'm Sarah Lange with the Oral History Program at UW Madison. I'm talking with Sandra Fernandez, book artist and UW alum via telephone. And I'm at the University Archives in Steenbock Library, and Sandra's in New Jersey. So Sandra, I understand you grew up in Ecuador. Can you talk a little bit about your family life and how art was a part of it? SF: Sure. Well actually, I was actually born in New York. And before I turned one, I returned to-- not retuned--I went to Ecuador with my mother. So I did grow up in Ecuador. My family, it was compelled by my grandfather, my grandmother, my mother and one aunt. It was a very loving family, actually. I felt very secure and I was the only child. I was filled with love all around me. (coughs) Excuse me (coughs). I grew up surrounded by art -- not necessarily fine art. It was more crafts and indigenous work. But also (clears throat) excuse me, it had to happen right now. (laughs) So Ecuador is a country with probably 80 percent of the population indigenous and mestizo people. So the work that they do is either basketry, weaving, sewing, woodwork, beautiful handmade things. Which are, you know, in the realm of crafts. Also, (clears throat) nevertheless, also we have some very important painters and sculptors that were more into the fine art realm. So I did grow up seeing beautiful murals and (coughs) actually Ecuador, well, Quito has a lot of churches as part of their historical heritage and the churches are amazingly beautifully decorated and there was a lot of sculpture that I saw growing up. (clears throat) Is that good? SL: Sure. And I wondered in your family, were there craftspeople in your family that you kind of grew up seeing their work? Or any artists in the family? 00:03:15 SF: Not really. Well, let me take that back. My grandmother and my aunt did sewing work. I mean they quote, unquote worked. They did crochet and knitting and (coughs) they'd sew also clothes. So I grew up seeing that. And actually I learned from them how to do these things. So that's why I incorporate in my work that labor as well. I had musicians in the family. But visual artists, per se, not that I know of. SL: You said musicians, right? SF: Musicians, yes. SL: Okay. You know, you chose to study art at UW Madison. Can you talk a little bit about what led you to that decision? SF: Yes. It was a very interesting way that I got there. When I moved to the United States, I had studied. So I grew up in Ecuador and at 22 I moved back to the United States. I was already married at the time. And before I moved, I had been studying sociology and literature. And it wasn't really (coughs) connecting with me. I come from a family of politicians. So sociology was a natural thing for me, but that wasn't for me. So when I moved to the United States, I really wanted to actually pursue making movies. In Ecuador, I had also been taking pictures. I loved photography. And I really admired cinema. And I really wanted to make an impact, a social impact, actually, through cinema. So when I moved to the United States, this was to Madison, (coughs) I was hoping to find a program where I could make movies. And I remember looking through the catalog at UW. There was a program, but it was all theory and I really wanted something more practical, more hands-on. So I started investigating other venues and I started taking classes, night class, because I was working at the time, night classes in graphic design. And this is something that just clicked with me. I had never done it before. I was very handy. I was very (coughs) artistic growing up. You know, like working on projects for school and little things like that. I loved doing that. I loved working with my hands. So when I found graphic design, I fell in love with it. And this was just one of those, what do you call them? These night classes through, I remember through UW -- I can't remember what they're called. Anyways, you know, these classes that you take like one or two days, and that's it. Like little workshops. 00:06:52 SL: Sure. SF: But (coughs) I really realized that I loved, I loved it. So I started looking into short programs. At that point in my life, I didn't want to spend more time. I had already been to school like for three years and I wasn't going anywhere. So 00:03:00 I just wanted something fast and hands-on. So I started looking into technical colleges. And I saw MATC, actually. And they had this program called visual communications that was for me everything I wanted at that point. I wanted to do video, I wanted to do film. So this was a shorter version of it. Photography and graphic design combined. So I enrolled in this visual communications program. And this was the first time, actually, that I had learned how to draw and how to paint and all these things that (coughs) led me later on to UW, actually. And I fell in love with everything. And I was so good at, I was getting great grades and it wasn't hard, it was easy -- it came naturally. So I thought okay, I found my thing. (clears throat) But so I got a two-year degree there. And of course, you know, the little bug, the little art bug got into me. And I wanted to continue with it. So I decided to apply to UW and transfer my credits to the art department. And this, I was able to do that, and because all the background that I had from Ecuador and from MATC, I only had to do about a year and a half to get my bachelor's. So I transferred my credits and I started learning more about drawing and painting and actually at that point, I was introduced to printmaking, which blew my mind. That was amazing. And I also did photography. So I was combining all these, all the knowledge that I had into one thing. And printmaking was really important, because growing up in Ecuador, I was exposed to all the posters and all the propaganda, propagandistic information that came through all the countries from Latin America and Mexico. But anyway, so that was a reference that I had (coughs) to like and want to pursue it. So at this point, (coughs) I'm almost done with my bachelor's degree and I was introduced to book arts. Probably I think in the senior year. Yeah, the senior year. SL: The senior, okay. 00:10:14 SF: Oh my God. I'm sorry. What? SL: No, no, go ahead. SF: And when this happened, my life changed completely. Because book arts was the thread that put everything that I knew and wanted to do together. I was telling you before that I grew up with my grandfather in Ecuador. He was actually a book collector and his business was buying and selling books. And he had this huge, huge collection of Ecuadorian books and European books. And I grew up with the smell of old books. And (coughs) so at that point, when I'm introduced to this book arts class, you know it's like, it made perfect sense to me. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. So I started working on that and combining my printmaking, my photography, my previous background. But, when I started, I was making traditional books in terms of what we know a book is. A flatch that could open, you know, you open the pages. But so at that point, I'm really excited about it. And I get my degree, my bachelor's degree. But actually, one of my professors was very encouraging of me continuing my studies. He suggested that I stay and get an MFA. So I did. SL: And Sandra, do you remember which professor that was? 00:12:24 SF: Oh, yeah, of course. His name was Cavalier Ketchum. SL: Okay. SF: And he was a photography professor. And because I started as a photographer, when I transferred to UW, I really wanted to pursue more photography. And he was the main photography professor. So that's how I got 00:06:00 connected with him. But he actually became my mentor. I mean, he was really, really important in my life and my education life at UW. And then I also met, well, I was working with a lot of different professors. But the most encouraging ones were Dennis Colantis, who was also a bookmaker, he makes books. Well, I mean, in terms of book art. And then I met Walter Hamady, who was one of the book arts professors. We had a very interesting relationship with Mr. Hamady. But I would say that Jim and Cavalier were the ones who really were behind my success in school. Ray Gloeckler was also an important person. Please interrupt the questions if I'm getting all over the place because I tend to do that. SL: Oh, that's okay. So could you talk a little bit more about your work with your professors? In particular with Cavalier Ketchum and Jim Escalante, if they were ones that you worked with a lot? 00:14:05 SF: Yeah. Well, when I'm accepted into the MFA program, my main professors become Jim, Cavalier, also, Ray Gloeckler ,Walter. I mean, I was working with everybody, actually. SL: Okay. SF: But yes, but my committee members were them. And I was also working with people from outside the art department. Dianne Sheehan from textiles And, oh, I also worked with Laurie Beth Clark, because she was supporting the content of my work, actually. Since my work was political, also. But at that point, I was working more with cultural issues, with childhood issues. But anyways. What was the question? I'm sorry? SL: I was just wondering about your professors. Could you talk a little bit more about maybe techniques that you learned from them in class, or kind of what their teaching style was like? SF: Yeah. Well, I guess the best part of going through the MFA program for me was the openness and support that I had for my own background. So going back a little bit with what I did before, moving to the United States and then working with the program. So I was always trying to combine my experiences. You know, my past with my present. So my past was, like I said before, sewing, weaving, basketry, stitching, photography. And my new skills were printmaking and sculpture and letterpress, bookmaking. So the freedom that I had to make my own style, develop my own style, was tremendous. I, let me see, working in an MFA program really pushes you to come up with something unique. At least at UW. That's what the professors wanted you to do, to create something that nobody else is doing, or to really reflect who you are and what, how you can express yourself through your work. And my work is very, as you know it, is very, is different, is weird, in a way. I combine things that not necessarily go together in terms of the history of fine art. No, let me take that back. At that time, it was more obvious. Nowadays, twenty plus years after, people are having more liberty of combining it and putting together things the way that I do it. Meaning like I was sewing on paper. You know, prints are, the traditional printmaking is very pure, in a way. You know, you respect the paper and you honor the medium. And it's very, hmm, how shall I put this? Like you don't go against, at least in the past, you shouldn't go against the rules of perfect margins and pristine this and 00:09:00 that. So I - because of my nature, because of the way that I work, I am always breaking the rules, in a way. (laughs) So I really wanted to stick to the paper, you know. To add things that, to combine things that didn't mix, per se. Like yeah collage had been around. And a lot of people had been using collage. And printmaking, you know, it's just one medium. I don't know if I'm making myself understood. But anyway, so, but also, bookmaking allowed me to jump into all of that. Because, and actually Walter Hamady opened my eyes in that sense. Because he, the way that he used paper in his own work, and the way that he taught us to do it was very open and sweet and exciting. So that really allowed me to try new things. 00:20:00 SL: Sure. I wonder if, there are, I'm thinking of Kathy Kuehn used sewing on paper but has a very different style. Did some of the previous students at UW, were you exposed to their works? And did you kind of get any ideas from them? Or did you feel like it was maybe more your instructors? SF: Um, I'm trying to think who was doing that when I was there. Oh my God, well, her name was Barbara--oh, I cannot remember her last name. She was doing some pretty interesting things. She was sewing seeds to her books, to paper. So yeah, of course. Of course you get ideas and influences from everything that surrounds you. Not only your teachers, but your peers. And the best part was that we were very, we were trying a lot of different things. And taking risks. And the whole concept that was introduced to me by Walter Hamady and the book arts, really pushed me to create the works that the books that I did. And you know, the ones that are in the Kohler Art Collection, Book Arts Collection. So yeah, of course, I was being influenced. But not only by book artists. I was influenced by what I was seeing in the galleries around town and the speakers that were coming to UW. People, you know, paintings that were not the regular paintings. And at that point, like nowadays people are sewing on paintings and doing really interesting stuff. Back then, it was just starting. It wasn't as predominant. SL: Sure. SF: It was something very, you know, kind of risky. And I love that now sewing is really a part of a lot of mediums, different mediums. And that's real important to me. Because like I was telling you when you asked me if I had artists in my family, you know, I hesitated because hand craft and woman's work hasn't been considered valued for many, many years. That was just what, what I guess women are supposed to do. But it wasn't really seen or appreciated as a work of art. And to me my entire life that has been really important to elevate the work, the work of women. Women's work. And actually is some of the artist's books that I make for MFA show, I wanted to really push that. So I was working with wood and sewing. I was making containers that were put together with wood, but then the support of them was thread. So really wanted to make 00:12:00 obvious this merge of sexes, in a way, in my head. You know, to me wood and harder materials were thought of as more masculine. And thread and paper in my head was more a feminine kind of thing. So I always wanted to put those at the same level. So that's talking a little bit about one of the works in the collection, the skirt, the When I was Three. SL: Yes. So the Kohler Art Library has a couple of your books. And one of them is a sculptural book that's cataloged as Childhood Memories: When I was Three. So I was wondering if you could describe that work and how it came to be. 00:24:34 SF: Sure. So that book is part of the series of artist books/containers that I developed early on. I moved rapidly from what I was describing before as regular books to these "different" quote unquote books. It was very fascinating to me to explore the idea that a book can be anything. But if it related to the basic concepts of what a book is, it was even more challenging to the imagination. So in my containers, lids become covers of books. Metal objects inside a box become the pages of the book. So metaphorically, I connected what we think of as a book to the possibilities of what a book can be. So that works, the Childhood Memories: When I was Three, was part of that series that I worked on. And thematically at that point I was working with my cultural background. I was pregnant at that time with my first child. And it was real important to me that I would leave some sort of legacy through my work to them. And I wanted to make them, you know, when they grew up, make them proud and to learn about where they come from. So that series addresses not only my cultural background, but also my remembrances as a child, and also what I went through and my experiences when I was living in Ecuador -- when I was growing up in Ecuador. So that piece was done in 1994, I believe. And that, it wasn't the first one that I did of the series. It was probably in the middle, as a child. And also, I wanted to highlight, my work is also about gender, so I really wanted to highlight my experiences as a woman, as a girl, as a daughter. So I started bringing up all these memories. I grew up without my father. So my childhood was a little bit different. That specific piece is about my connection with my dad. And it's called When I was Three, because that picture that peeks through the skirt is a picture of myself at three years old when, from my tourist card when I came to the United States to meet my father for the first time. So this time of my life was very traumatic, in a way, because I was put on a plane, at three years old, all by myself, from Quito to New York to come and meet my dad. SL: Wow. You were all by yourself? 28:25 SF: All by myself. (laughs) Well, you know, back then the, what do you call them, the flight attendants would be in charge of a minor. SL: Okay. SF: I was put in the hands of one of the flight attendants to be there for me while I was traveling. But the whole situation, the whole idea of, I mean, I truly don't remember how I felt. But I must've been so scared that it, you know, that picture's reflected on there because that was the picture that was taken the day that I was flying or something like that. So I wanted to use that photograph of myself to tell that story. And so that piece is about that. That piece is about being a child, being vulnerable, having expectations about your father. Yeah, being scared. That piece is completely about that. And the shape of the piece, it's a dress. And that also comes back to childhood. I loved dolls and I still love dolls. I collect dolls of any kind. And actually, that piece was, it's a very important piece, because it's the first time that I used the shape of a dress as a symbol in my work. And that actually developed and continued throughout the years. But that was the first one I did with this symbolic thread throughout my work. And also, that piece 00:15:00 is also about, there's this movie, oh my God, what's the name in English? I want to say it in Spanish. It's El Tambo de Hojalata. It's a German movie. The Tin Drum? Maybe that's a translation? Well, it doesn't matter. So and the movie is about, the part that really impacted me is that there was this little boy that lived with his mother. And this was, when he would get scared, he would go under the mother's skirt to hide and to feel protected. So this work has those kind of thoughts. You know, you're going under your mother's skirt to protect yourself. To feel secure. SL: Thank you, Sandra. Oh, I'm sorry. Are you -- you can go ahead and continue. 31:37 SF: Yeah, just one more thing. And on the top, the blouse of the skirt has some writing on it. And the writing is about that. About the feelings with my father. About my father, and about growing up without a father and things like that. SL: I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the techniques you used to make that book. Like in particular, the top is paper but it's very soft and it almost feels more like a blouse would, you know, with that texture. Could you talk a little bit about your process there and your techniques? SF: Sure. So I had learned different photographic techniques. And I fell in love with what is called non-silver, which is the technique I used to print the words. So the words come out in blue. So it's called cyanotype. So cyanotypes come out in blue. And I really want to use the blue as a color because blue makes you, it's connected with your unconscious and with your mind. So I really wanted the piece to use blue and tan colors. So it has a tonality there. So the blouse, yes. The paper on the blouse is handmade paper. It's Japanese paper. And I liked it because I could make it work as cloth, basically. And I could mold it and, you know, make a little, make it look like fabric. And also it was a very good kind of paper, so I could print on the cyanotypes. And also it's sewn. Yeah, the flexibility of the material is what I-- But also, I didn't want to use fabric. I wanted to use paper. And that has been another thing throughout my work that I--I mean, I could easily use fabric. But I 00:18:00 don't want to use fabric. I want to use paper. Because paper is what's in my blood, in my background. And also to, I was pushing myself to make something that, I was talking about before, something different, something that people have not necessarily made or done or worked with before. And then the skirt is made out of veneer. So I love also how delicate, how thin it was, but at the same time, how strong. And I wanted to make that emphasis in the work as well. You know, so you're vulnerable but then you can also be strong. And that relates to my past being vulnerable and then my future becoming strong as a woman. You know, getting over all these things that had happened in my past. And you know, and flourishing and having that base. So the skirt is made out of veneer. And it's also printed on, has printed on a cyanotype. So the texture that you see, the colors that you see on the skirt, are blue. So those are cyanotypes. And I then wanted to make it look like fabric. So that was the idea. So a pattern printed on. And then the, I'm trying to think what else. Oh, the photographs, I can't remember now. Let me take a look at the picture quickly. 35:50 SL: Sure. Of course. SF: I think it was film that I used. Wow, it's been so long. Oh, yeah. So the picture, the image, is also printed on the same material as the blouse. SL: Okay. So I wanted to follow up with you. You said blue is connected to your unconscious. Could you talk a little bit more about that? SF: Yes. You know colors have different meanings. Like red is for happiness or also, you know, when you want to make caution signs. So psychologically colors, different colors incite a reaction on the viewer. And the blue is said to be connected with your unconscious, with what you have inside your head. And it's also connected with your thoughts. So when you see blue, you know, you kind of have this interesting calming effect, in a way. So that's the connection. That's the meaning behind the blue. And the technique of cyanotype is so beautiful because it can be such a deep, deep blue. And this is an interesting thing. When the cyanotype is exposed to light, it fades. And if you put it back in a dark place, it gets its richness again. And it's blue, dark 00:21:00 blue. SL: Oh. Interesting. SF: So that's something else that's fascinating to me in terms of the content of the work. How moods can change or how you, how you see different perspectives of life. You can be calm. The same feeling can be both things at different times. So that piece is very, it's very spiritual, also, in this sense. Yeah. The blue, the blue is important. (laughs) Yeah, and you're going to see that a lot of my pieces from that time are blue. You know, are blue and beige or blue and white to portray that kind of spirituality and awareness and consciousness. 38:56 SL: Okay. Thank you. I wondered because this book is almost like a book sculpture, it does challenge the notions of what a book is. Do you recall the reactions of the people who saw it? Maybe your instructors, your fellow students? I think it was in your show. Maybe other people who saw it, how did they respond to the book? SF: Yeah. Well, yeah. People were like, "Well, these are not books. (laughs) What do you mean? These are sculptures." Yeah, you know, books are sculptural, too. But I was pushing the thought of what a book is or can be. And well, there's a long tradition and history of artist books. I'm not the first one to make them. And so it was a really interesting time pushing, pushing boundaries and pushing the idea of what a book is or could be. And to me it was, artist books to me are, I love them, are fascinating. Because they are, you can, they can be as involving as a book that has text, the content within the words and the pages. And actually, that's what my book is about in general. I work with layers. I work with the content is hidden a lot of times. You just need to go in and look for it and find it. And it's almost like when you're reading a book, you're beginning. And the story keeps developing. And at the end, everything is revealed to you. So my books have that, the same notion but a little bit, like maybe one step away. So, yeah. People, people always, when they looked at my books, when I've had the whole show together, like probably 15 or 20 pieces, when everything works together, people, I think, thought that they made more sense. And then I would have to explain okay, for example, the book at the library [unclear] so it has writing, right? It has content. It has writing. You have a beginning and an end. There's a story. And a book usually has a story that has a beginning and an end. And you build around that. It's a different kind of discovery. And I think that it also opens up this idea of access, accessibility. For example, for people that have different abilities, that not necessarily can read a book from beginning to end. They see a piece like 00:24:00 this, they see an artist book, and they understand the content and the narrative, and they're able to see it in whole without needing the specific skills. I don't know, I think artist books are more accessible in certain ways. SL: Would you, because you mentioned story. Would you say that for you artist books have a narrative of some kind? 00:43:04 SF: Oh, yes. Oh, definitely. Oh, yeah. It's like with any work of art. There's a narrative. I mean, there's, sometimes the narrative is not one mile long. But you know, but you're always telling a story. You're always talking about, about something. Unless you know, it's very, I don't know, very abstracted work that is not right out there right away. But I do believe that. I do believe that, yeah, the artist book has a complete story. Or you know, and sometimes it can be a story that is to be completed by the viewer, you know? You review it and then the viewer is the one who ties the knot, in a way. Because you put out all the information and you fill it out. SL: That makes sense. SF: So, yeah. I think it does. SL: Would you make a distinction between an artist book and just another type of work of art? Or -- I'm just curious to know if you see like a distinction between artist books and other works of art? SF: Yes. Yes. I do believe that the artist books still have a connection with the common knowledge of what a book is. And again, you know, it can be subtle. It can be the memory of flipping the pages, or turning the pages. Or the shape of a regular book. And, but you know what, to be honest with you, when you are the artist, you decide what your work is, right? I mean you, of course all those people put labels on the work you do. And someone might consider a traditional book that you made something else. So it's kind of (laughs) in a way random. And also, you have a lot of freedom on naming works of art. And I think it's determined on what the artist considers it is. I think we have the kind of leisure, in a way, of naming a work of art. And I'm thinking of all Duchamp's toilets. (laughs) SL: Yeah. 00:46:12 SF: But in general, book arts and artist books, artist books, to me an artist book gives me a different kind of opportunity to express myself without being pinholed as a bookmaker, for example. And that's just me. I'm a mixed media artist. I work with a lot of different materials. So, you know, I'm not a printmaker only. I'm not a sculptor only. I'm not a book artist only. I'm not a photographer only. So actually artist books allow me to be all of the 00:27:00 things I want. And you know, it's not for everybody. Not everybody feels the need to express themselves the way that I do. It's just, as I said before, I'm particularly fond of many different materials and many different mediums. So to artist books, I can do many different things. The possibilities open up for me. Have opened up for me. You know, one of my, in that same series where Childhood Memories came from, I had a basket that was crocheted, you know? And I had a lot of other techniques that I could bring in and combine them with this is one. The other Childhood Memories in the series, it's all crocheted and then you open it up and you have a book, a more traditional book, coming out of it. (coughs) So, yeah. To me, artist books gave me the freedom to express who I am and to develop my further work and to know it was okay to mix things and to be as unpredictable as I am with all the work that I do. SL: Well, Sandra, I wondered if we could discuss a little bit the other book that you have at the Kohler. It's called A Beginning and an End, Un Commienzo y un Final. It's in both English and Spanish. Could you talk a little bit about, could you describe the book and then how you began that project? I know that one is from 2009, so a little bit later. 00:49:07 SF: Yeah. So, yeah, so this book is more of a traditional book. I think even though it has a lot of unpredictable things it's more of a traditional book. It's very small. It fits in your hand. And when you open it up, you reveal the content as a whole. So you could read it either page by page, or you're unfolding the folds of one sheet of paper. So it was printed on one sheet of paper. And then folded. And I love that idea of going little by little and revealing the entire content at the end. So when you open it up, you can see an image on each side. A full image on each side. But also as you're opening it little by little, you can see the beauty of each page. And I love, love, love to see the combination, to see printmaking combined with sewing and stitching. There's a quality about the stitch that's very appealing to me. And also conceptually the poking with the needle onto the paper and making the hole, the coming in and out, is sort of a violent act in a way because you know, you're poking through. And then you are connecting things and you're mending. So it also relates to that, to pain. And into mending that pain and connecting and making something beautiful out of it. I'm a very optimistic person. And I believe in healing and in making things better out of bad things. So conceptually that's what that represents to me, the need for the sewing and the stitching. What else did I leave out? Oh, so can you follow-up on the question? SL: Sure. So I'm curious to know first, did you 00:30:00 hand stitch that? Or did you use a sewing machine? 00:51:47 SF: Both. SL: Both. Okay. SF: And I combine, and I do that. I combine, I usually combine both. For that book, see, I have to see a picture again. SL: Yeah, no, I understand. SF: Let me see. Oh, yes. Yeah. It was mostly machine. But I do have a little bit of hand stitch there. Mostly for the signature of the book, for the spine. You know, putting the spine together. SL: Okay. SF: And it has some hand stitching. And this book is actually also very important at a point of my life. I got divorced the year that I made that book. And this book is about that. But it's about my children. I have two children. And to me, growing up without a father, I knew, I knew how difficult and how hard and painful the situation could be. And you know, things happen and my marriage fell apart. And my concern was for my kids. And so this book is about them. One of the images on the book is, when you open it up, is my daughter's birth certificate. And she has, and her little foot is there. So this piece about that, and it's for them. For them to know that no matter what, they will always be loved. And you know, sometimes things happen. But most of all, securing for them some sort of comfort despite the harshness of a situation like that, you know. You see your parents separate and be apart. SL: Is there anything that you'd like to add? 00:54:18 SF: To the book or in general? SL: Well I was thinking specifically about the book. But if you-- SF: About the book? I'm trying to think. It was, so my work incorporates a lot of Spanish. It's very important to me to put that in because that's who I am. More and more it's being, the titles of my pieces are more and more inclusive of both languages. Sometimes actually they're just in Spanish. So that's something that has developed over the years. Even more predominantly. SL: And do your children know both Spanish and English? SF: Yes. Yes. Their first language was Spanish. And they are both fluent. My son speaks a little bit of an accent. Which is so cute. (laughs) But yeah, they're both fully bilingual. Yes. SL: Well I wondered if maybe we could wrap up with kind of a more general question about how you think your time as a student at the UW has impacted your career as an artist. 00:55:47 SF: Sure. It was crucial. It was definite. I don't think that I would be where I am without that experience. And I feel very lucky because I had amazing professors that really supported me and opened my eyes to possibilities. They were very generous with their ideas, with their knowledge. And I mean, I don't have any other experience, because I did all my schooling at UW. So I really don't know how to compare it with another place in the United States. But it was a very important part of my life. That's when I was formed. I mean, that's how I, that's where I became who I am now. And not only the professors. I mean, UW provided so many 00:33:00 opportunities for me. Museums, you know, speakers. People coming to the classrooms. Other professors coming to the classrooms. It was such a motivating and how do you say that, it was very, very good. It opened my eyes. It opened my eyes. And Madison was such a beautiful place to be, too. It was actually the second port coming into the United States, when I returned. And it was so, such a great place. I don't think that I would have flourished the way that I did being in a different place. It was the perfect sized city. The people, an international community. Very open to foreigners. So I never felt excluded. I did, of course, moving and uprooting from your country and coming into a different culture, you know, it's hard. You do feel like you don't fit in. But not because people were making me feel that. It was more, you know, not growing up in this environment. So it was fantastic. It was fantastic. I couldn't complain. SL: Okay. Thank you. So much for your time, Sandra. I'm going to end this session here for now. 00:58:41 End Interview Session 1. Second Interview Session (May 25, 2018): Digital File 00:00:00 SF: Can you hear me? Can you hear me? SL: Yes. Yes. We're good. So today is May 25, 2018. I'm Sarah Lange with the oral history program at UW Madison. I'm talking with Sandra Fernandez, book artist and UW alum, and this is our second session. I'm at the university archives at Steenbock Library, and Sandra is in New Jersey. Thanks again for talking with me, Sandra. Last time you talked about traveling from Quito, Ecuador to Queens to visit your father. And I know you did this a few more times before you moved to the U.S. Could you talk a little bit about what that was like for you, traveling here? SF: Sure. I had mentioned before that when I was three, I came back to the U.S. for the first time as a little child. So that experience was a little bit traumatic. I remember bits and pieces of it. And through photography. And actually, this is something interesting, because it feels that I have suppressed a lot of memories. But photos are what bring me, not bring me back, but make me fill in that gap of memory that I don't remember. And that became really important, because through my art and book series, and my paper dolls, I relied heavily on photography to reclaim those memories. But anyways, going back to your question, yeah, so my father lived in the United States. And I came, let's see, the next time I came to visit him was when I was seven. And then when I was fifteen, and then when I was eighteen. So there weren't that many times. He went to visit me to Ecuador a few times, too. So all together, you know, you can count them in a handful. And then after I moved back to the United States, our relationship became more fluid. And he actually visited me quite often after I gave birth to my first child. But the visits to him when I was growing up were very stressful and very painful. When I was living those experiences, of course I felt, I felt them. But it's not until later, when I start actually doing my artwork and relaying on those stories, that I really realized how I was feeling about 00:36:00 these visits. And what it meant and what it represented. My father was a very loving person. And it was very hard for me to accept the fact that he was far away. And that I could just see him very little and talk to him very little. So that was, I think that that developed in me a sense of abandonment and a sense of need of that father figure. Although, when I was in Ecuador, I did grow up with my grandfather, but it was a completely different relationship. So I did feel the lack of the father figure growing up. Okay, do you want to--? 00:03:51 SL: Yeah, could you talk a little bit about your relationship with your grandfather? SF: Yes. It was a very close relationship. Of course he was an older person. And I actually became a little bit of his caretaker in a way the last years before I moved to U.S. His image was very important philosophically and more in that sense. But also emotionally. He was very supportive. But he was a grandfather, you know. He was very caring but not that involved as a father would be in a child's education. He, I can't remember if I mentioned this, but he was a very important political figure in Ecuador. He was actually one of the founders of the Socialist Party in Ecuador. And this fact determined actually how I think and how I feel about politics and society in general. So his teachings, because he was a very committed person and he was very committed to social justice, this really formed my view on life. So my relationship with him wasn't political, really. Was very nurturing. He was a very kind, soft-spoken, very smart man. And he also was the owner of a library. No, I'm sorry, not a library. A bookstore. And he collected, and this was actually his livelihood, he collected books by Ecuadorian writers. And that was his concentration: to promote and support the culture of the Ecuadorian writers. And he also had European books. But he amassed this amazing collection. And he would buy and sell to actually a lot of the libraries in the United States carried his books that he had sold them. So I became, after, let's see, probably I was 16 years old, I started working with him at his bookstore. And I learned a lot about the trade. And I fell even more in love with books. I had been an avid reader since early on, and I loved literature. And the fact that I was in this library made me, brought me even closer to books. But I fell in love with the smells of the old books (laughs), with the whole setup of a library. And this is also important because that carries on into my art. And I had mentioned before that I fell in love with books, in making books, in artist's books. And then when I start making the books, I also go back to this 00:39:00 memory of paper and of old books. And you know, everything that is related to it. Type. So actually, I start, the first assignment, it's really interesting. The first assignment that I had at the first artist books class that I took with Walter Hamady was to alter a book. And I remember going to an antique bookstore there in Madison and just browsing through the books. And I found this one book. And I had to do something to the book. And it took me a while to build up the courage to do something to this book. Because books, to me, were these precious things, objects that, you know, you don't tamper with them. You don't do anything to them. You treasure them and you love them and you read them. So it was quite an experience for me to cut it out and to do something to this old book. And it was a very old book. So, actually that book is about my grandfather, the first one that I did. 00:08:53 So my relationship with books starts from very early on. And I didn't know any of this until later on when I went to art school, when I started dealing with these issues of utilizing books and changing books and doing things to books. And I think I lost my train already. SL: That's all right. (laughter) Well, I wondered if there's anything else that you want to talk about before we get to leaving Ecuador. Was there anything else growing up there that you wanted to cover? SF: Let me see. Yes. Only because, I mean, my work is about childhood memories and issues of abandonment and political issues, all of it. I think that the rooting of all of it was created in Ecuador before I moved here, in its entirety. Well, in the majority, I would say. And also, I went in Ecuador through a period of instability in relation with my mother. My mom met what became her husband when I was about 12 years old. And this affected me immensely because she slowly moved out of the house. So I stayed and lived with my grandfather and my aunt. And she would come, she was present, I mean, she would come and go. But I felt that she left me. And you know, those years in your life are very crucial. And my father was absent already. And then my mom had children with somebody else over me. So this really marked me and dictated, actually, a lot of the choices and the decisions that I made in the future. And this, I think, has been recorded, this event has been recorded in 00:42:00 my artwork for many, many years. SL: That must have been really hard for you growing up to have both of your parents leave you. 00:11:28 SF: Yes. SL: You mentioned your grandfather kind of stepped in and helped you out. Were there other people growing up who kind of took over a motherly role, would you say? SF: Yes. My aunt. My mother's sister. She was single. And she was living in the same house as my grandfather and I. So she kind of took over. Well, I wouldn't say that she became my mother, because she was a very independent, very--She didn't take over as a mom. I shouldn't say that. But she became the person that I would confide in. And she really became a really, really close influence in my life. I also had another aunt (chuckles) by the way who would come and stay in the house for weekends sometimes to help take care of my grandfather and just to be there. And oh my God, she was so loving, very, very loving person. But again, they did not take the place of my mom. I felt a void in that area. Because I really needed, I really needed that mother figure growing up. Especially in those years. But you know, I would say that my aunt played a very important role, yeah, throughout my life, and even after. SL: Thank you, Sandra. So maybe we could talk a little bit about leaving Quito, then. You mentioned that, last time, after we wrapped up, we talked for a little bit and you mentioned that you left for political reasons. Could you explain that? 00:13:32 SF: Yeah, so let me give a little bit of a context. So growing up a little bit, feeling very alone and without a sense of a family, really, I seeked some sort of community support in politics. So I had been, as I said before, my grandfather was a socialist, my uncle was a socialist. My household was a very politically active household. My uncle was even the candidate for the vice presidency at one point, of Ecuador. SL: Oh, wow. SF: Yeah. And so my aunt, the one I was talking about, she was an economist. And she absolutely was very influential in writing curriculum for education for the whole country. So, you know, this is the context that I'm in. Very academic and theoretical, in a way. So, and you know, I shouldn't say that I didn't have love. I mean, I was very loved. I was the only child in the house. The only granddaughter. The only--no, that's not the only niece, but the niece that is at home. So I was flattered with love from my grandfather, my aunts and my mom. So anyway, but I felt a void. I felt a void of this family, this kind of relationship that, you know, a family gives you, provides to you. There's a sense of belonging to a group. So because I was lacking this, I started looking outside. So I became involved with a party, with a group, let's say, with a group. With a group that, you know, was seeking social justice and was very much, it kind of became my family. It kind of took over this void that I'm talking about that I was not having at home. So I got very involved and, you know, I became very active. And this, at this time, there's a lot of political unrest in the country. Actually, there is many guerilla movements start forming in Latin America. Well, continue to form in Latin America. In Ecuador, in Colombia, this starts happening. So I'm 00:45:00 watching, I'm looking and I'm observing all of this. And at this point I meet who became my husband, my ex-husband. And you know, he was also involved in politics. And we fell in love, madly in love. And we decided to get married. So at this point, the country is, there's a lot happening. There's this president called Leon Febres Cordero who decides to start enforcing the law and shutting off the voices of people that are supporting social justice, that want changes and that of course are opposing the government. 00:17:30 So, as I said before, in Colombia the guerillas were very outspoken. And there was some infiltration moving into Ecuador. So he starts, he thinks that everybody that's in politics has a connection with this social situation from Colombia. And no, there were connections, I shouldn't deny it. So he starts jailing and killing a lot of young people. And among those people were a lot of people that we knew. Because they were our age, they were around our social circles. And he starts just killing relentlessly everybody that he thinks is involved. So because we were tied to some political groups, we become not a target, but we are in danger-- SL: Yeah. SF:--of being, of falling into this killing. So, you know, we feared for our lives. At this point, I'm already married with my ex-husband. SL: And about like what time was this, Sandra? SF: This was 1986. And all this political unrest happened between '85, '86, '87. But so in 1986, we get married. And we really feel surrounded by this fear. And you know, again, people that we knew are being incarcerated, are being tortured. And a lot of them disappeared. So you know, of course we get very afraid and we decide, you know, we cannot be here. We have, you know, we could possibly be targeted, and who knows what can happen? So we're afraid, and we decide to leave Quito. And we initially wanted to go to Europe. Because, this is something very interesting, too. Growing up in Latin America, we really thought that the USA was imperialism and capitalism at its maximum. And you know, we were against the US politics. And we hated, I hated, the whole system and the whole--you know, everything that was the US. So the last place that I would have wanted to live were the United States. But, since we, I was a citizen, you know, this was the only place I could actually go to. 00:20:43 So we decided to come here. And we started our life here. So it wasn't a decision that we, that we wanted to make. You know, it wasn't something, actually, my father had asked me to come to the United States to study. And I had said no, I 00:48:00 don't want to study there, I want to study in Ecuador. So this will give you an idea of the uprooting that I went through at that point. And it was really a decision that I had to make to be safe. And the worst thing about this is that I couldn't talk to anybody about this. Because, you know, it wasn't something that I, I was scared to death, you know. I was so scared that someone would find out, or someone would know that I was involved in politics, or that I was leaving. I was actually very fearful for my life. So things were not that easy when I came to this country. As I said before, I felt uprooted. I was miserable. I missed my grandfather. I missed my family, my cousins. I missed everything. I went to an American school, so I knew how to speak English. But the funny thing is that I didn't understand the news. You know, I couldn't even follow the news. So I did know English but-- SL: Sandra? SF: --you know, I felt okay, you know. (laughs) I understand it, I know what's happening. So it was-- SL: Sandra, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Could you explain what you mean when you said you went to an American school? 00:22:58 SF: Yes. In Ecuador there are different, of course there are private and public schools. I went to a private school that, it was called Colegio Americano de Quito, it's American School of Quito, Ecuador. Meaning that you are taught English. SL: Okay. SF: And when you graduate, you get this high school diploma that is, how do you say that? It's like certified by the US, something like that. So some subjects were taught in English. SL: So you really grew up bilingual. SF: Uh, yes and no. SL: Okay. SF: Because again, the English that was taught down there was not by US natives. SL: Sure. SF: So it wasn't--I wouldn't say I grew up bilingual. I would say that I learned English in school. And I took subjects in English in school. But no, no, I didn't grow up bilingual. SL: Okay. Thank you for clarifying. SL: And so when you got to the US with your husband, did you connect with your father? 00:24:21 SF: No. Because I got, actually, that was a big deal. I got married very quickly. And he wasn't really part of it. Like I, actually before getting married, like a month before I was going to get married, I came to visit him. SL: Okay. SF: And I didn't want him to know that I was getting married because I didn't want him to come to my wedding. So it was a mess, because he got very upset about it. And he found out like maybe a week before I was getting married. So, I mean, you can understand this, and this decision that he had against, you know, towards everything. So we got a little bit distanced because of that. And the reason 00:51:00 that I didn't want him to come to my wedding was because I wanted my grandfather to take me to the altar. And unfortunately that didn't even happen because my grandfather at that point got sick so he couldn't take me. So, you know, it defeated the whole purpose. But the point is that I got distanced from my father. So my, so when I came, I didn't want to ask him for anything, you know? So actually when we came, we came to California first. And we were, we stayed at one of my ex-husband's uncle's house in California. SL: And were in California was that? SF: In the Mojave Desert. It was Ridgecrest, California. So we stayed there for a few months to, you know, to settle and to figure out what it is that we wanted to do. In Ecuador, I had studied sociology and literature. But I knew that that wasn't what I wanted to do. You know, it wasn't my passion. So I came to the States and I had no idea, I had no idea what I was going to do with my life. One thing that I mentioned before is that I loved photography before I moved. I was always with a camera in my hand and I was always recording things before moving. And I really loved photography. And I was very into film. I loved movies. And I thought that movies were a very good tool for dissemination and for allowing people to learn different ideas. So I wanted, actually I wanted to be a filmmaker. That was the only thing that I kind of thought oh, you know, maybe I can make movies. So when, so we came to California first. And again, you know, I mean, I remember that, how, how do you say that, discombobulated I was? (laughs) SL: Sure. 00:27:42 SF: How sad I was. I mean, I was happy because I was with my ex-husband, and I had been just married. And at least I had someone that I could share with what had happened. But you know, I felt lost. So actually, my ex-husband was, he was a worrier, in a way. He did not know any English. And one of the reasons, actually, why we came to the United States is because, this is an interesting story, what we were in Ecuador, his father was a doctor, medical doctor. And he had at one point a visitor from Tufts University, a professor from Tufts University that came to his home. And we were already thinking about what to do in the future, and already thinking about moving to the US. And he, and my ex-husband wanted to study neuroscience. Because he was also a medical doctor. And he said, "Oh, you know what? Come to Tufts. Why don't you come to study?" And we were so ignorant. We didn't know anything about the educational system in the United States. We did not know how it worked. And he said, "Oh, why don't you guys come? And yeah, why don't you come? Apply. And I'll help you." So this was enough for us to say, to think, okay, you know, this is what we're going to do. And we did not know that it doesn't happen that way. You know, you have to apply. You have to be admitted. (laughs) You have to go through so many things. GREs and SATs and all these things. So you know, so naively we thought oh my God, we have this connection, so he's going to help us. So my ex-husband wanted to study neuroscience at Tufts. And that was the goal, to apply to the university and to go there. So this is the summer of nineteen-eighty--no. This if February of 1987. And we're in California. So, okay, so, again, I'm lost. I don't know what I'm going to do. SL: I'm sorry. Did you 00:54:00 say 1987, right? 00:30:03 SF: Eighty-seven, yes. April of 1987 is when I moved to the United States. When we moved to the United States. Back. So his goal becomes learning English, passing the GREs, and moving to Boston to go to Tufts. And I'm along for the ride. I'm thinking okay, yes, you know, okay. I'll figure it out. So the summer goes by. No, the spring goes by and he's preparing for all these exams, all these tests. I'm just working. I'm working at the clinic where his uncle was a doctor. SL: What was he? A doctor? SF: He was a medical doctor, yes. So I become the receptionist in his practice you know, for a few hours a week to get some income. Because we don't have any money. We actually came with two suitcases. Am I telling too much? SL: No, no. This is very interesting. SF: Okay. So, where was I? SL: So you're a receptionist. SF: I'm a receptionist. Very, very part time. And he's studying for to take his test. And, you know, a month goes by, two months go by. And we start getting a notification from his uncle that we should start doing something, you know. We should start affording, not affording, getting some money, you know, that they cannot support us forever. SL: Okay. SF: And we know it, but we cannot do anything, obviously. So, you know, the environment becomes a little bit tense. And you know, I start not getting along with his uncle. And things are not that great. So at this point, my ex-brother-in-law, he was in Madison, Wisconsin, with a Fulbright, studying engineering with his wife. So he knows about our situation and he says, "You know, you guys don't have to stand that. Come and stay with us until you guys go to Tufts. So just come and you know, on your way there, come and stay with us." We said okay, you know, perfect, this sounds good. We decide to leave the Mojave Desert. And we got on a Greyhound. (laughs) And I still remember this. It took us like three days. SL: Oh, yeah. 00:33:04 SF: And it was so horrible. I have never felt my bottom (laughs) so sore in my life. (laughter) And it was really fascinating, because we had all sorts of experiences on the bus. One day a guy want to hijack the Greyhound. And you know, he gets on the bus. You know, things like that. SL: Oh, wow. SF: Yeah. So we're getting a taste of America. (laughter) So we embarked on the Greyhound to Madison, Wisconsin. And we arrive there, and you know, we love it. Madison seems to be so beautiful, and is beautiful. And my brother-in-law welcomes us and opens their doors. And it's really, really nice. And we knew each other, so we got along. So it was great. SL: And what time of year was this? SF: This was 1987 still. SL: Yeah. And is it in spring or summer? SF: This is about, it's probably June or July of 1987. And so okay, we arrive into his house. And the next day, my ex-husband gets this letter from Tufts. No, yes, from Tufts. I mean, he had already applied. He had already taken the GRE. And it's a rejection letter. SL: Oh. SF: Of course, he doesn't get in. Because his GREs are very low, you know? He learned in two months, English. (laughter) SL: Okay. Okay. SF: So anyway, this, of course, is devastating. And so what do we do? So what do we do? Actually, this is probably the best thing that ever happened to us because we decided to stay in Madison. And our approach was, okay, so, oh, so he, this was another turning point, too. So we were touring the University of Wisconsin 00:57:00 the following Monday after we arrive. And of course we fall in love with the campus. And my ex-husband and my ex-brother-in-law are talking about okay, so what are we going to do, what are we going to do? They're talking, talking. And we stop by the Memorial Union, I remember. And we pick up a catalog of classes. You know, one of those catalog that lists all the programs and all the things that you can do, that you can study. So we pick one of those catalogs, and we start looking. Okay, so what can we study here? What can we do here? And I find filmmaking. And I'm like, you know, this is what I want to do. And my ex-husband finds, because he loves history and he loves science. So he said, okay. I'm going to combine these two things and I'm going to try this, I'm going to see where I go with this. So you know, from studying neuroscience, he goes to history of science. SL: Okay. SF: We have a goal now. So then now it was okay, what are we going to do? We cannot afford to pay the tuition, the out of state tuition. So the plan is, okay, we're going to establish residency for a year. Meanwhile, we're going to work. And then we apply for the following year. So that's what we do. 00:37:04 But meanwhile, I'm looking for what I want to do. And I start visiting the departments, the theater- the filmmaking department. And I start looking and reading. And I'm like, it was a very theoretical program. And what I wanted was hands-on. I really wanted something practical, you know, hands on. So I decided no, this is not for me. I had been studying already like three years of sociology. And my head was so big. You know, that was not for me. I was done. I was done with theoretical discourse. And the filmmaking program there seemed to be like that. So I said no. So, okay, I put that aside. And meanwhile, I'm looking for jobs. And I start looking, looking, looking, and nothing, nothing. Because you needed a previous experience. And we don't have any previous experience. So it was like a vicious circle, you know? You couldn't find a job because you didn't have experience. And they would not hire you because you didn't have experience. So it was very hard and very difficult to get over that lump. So every single day, you know, looking at the newspaper and seeing what's out. And applying, applying, applying to everything. And of course rejections, rejections, rejections. So finally I find one of those temp agencies. And I called them. And, yes. I get a shot. So they wanted someone to work at this law firm. Actually, it wasn't a law firm. It was a state--ah, the state child support law area. And they wanted someone to file the folders. (laughs) So, oh my God, this was surreal. So the job was like nine to five. So, I don't know. This is like those horror movies when everything gets repeated, repeated, repeated, repeated. It's never ending. So at the beginning of the day, I would have this cart with probably over 100, 200 folders, that needed to be filed back into their cabinets. And you know, I would have, that cart was never empty. SL: Okay. (laughs) SF: I got there at nine. And at five, you know, it got never empty. And I'd been working all day filing these folders. So it was exhausting. I mean, I would get home and I would just drop. It was absolutely exhausting. But anyway, it was a job. I was getting, the minimum salary back then was three dollars per hour. So I was getting a little bit under that because of the percentage that they took or something like that. But it was a job. 00:40:19 But of course I was still looking and looking and looking for something else. And this one day, I see this ad for Wisconsin's Environmental Decade. And it 01:00:00 was this nonprofit environmental place. And they were looking for someone to work at night in their tele-canvasser program stamping envelopes. (laughs) So, you know, I had my job during the day, and I could go to this one during the night so I could make more money. So I start working there and actually this was another thing that really saved me. So I went there and I met these really, really wonderful people. But again, you know, I'm stamping envelopes. And again, the story of repeating a never ending cycle. (laughs) But at least these were young people. Very interesting, very intelligent. And you know, while I was stamping the envelopes, good conversations and I was learning things, and it was fine. There was this one guy, Bill, who was very interested in Latin America. And he was very sweet and very nice. I think that he liked me and he wanted to help me. So he says, "Listen, the comptroller, the bookkeeper during the day, needs someone to help her with bookkeeping. Maybe you're interested in it." And I'm like, yes! So he connects me with this bookkeeper that needs someone to help her. So to make the story short, the bookkeeper was about to leave, and she trained me. She trained me to do all the things that needed to be done. And you know, I was right on. And she leaves. And I was the only person that knew how to do everything. So I become the bookkeeper of this nonprofit. And that was the best thing that could ever happen to me. Because I was earning not two dollars an hour, but five. (laughs) And you know, it was a fulltime job. And I mean, the environment was great. The people were amazing. And this allowed me to actually have a steady job for that year. We needed to move out from my ex-brother-in-law's house so. And my ex-husband also found a job already. So we were able to rent an apartment for ourselves. So this is the short--oh, and another important thing. While I'm working, I wanted to do something, to learn something. And I wanted, so I started looking again. I looked again in one of those magazines of night classes that UW used to offer, or I don't know if they still offer. But you know, those really short workshops. So I see--and I think I talk about this already, I can't remember, so I see this class in graphic design. And it was two nights. And I thought hmm, this is so interesting. You know, I'm going to try it. I would love to do this. Because I was very good with my hands. In school, I loved drawing. Not this sort of drawing, but doing architectural drawings, and cutting, and doing all of the art projects. I loved doing that. (clears throat) So, you know, I had good small motor skills. And I thought oh, that sounds beautiful. So I take this class. And that's another thing that really changed my life, because I loved it. It was really the simplest thing ever. Back then, computers were not that predominant, so everything had to be done by hand. So I'm cutting and pasting and using letters and making these little cards and posters. And I'm like, I love this! 00:44:49 So this gives me the idea that okay, 01:03:00 you know, I need to pursue something connected to art and graphic design. And I told you before that I didn't want to do film school. So I started looking at technical colleges. And I find out about Madison Area Technological College. MATC. And I looked through their courses and degrees and I find this degree that's called visual communications that has photography, it has video making and graphic design all in one. And I'm like, this is what I want. Because it had everything that I wanted to do. So I applied for the program. I get in. And I actually go to school there. So a whole year passes. And I already applied, my husband already applied. So we both get in. He gets into history of science. I get in at UW, and I get into MATC. And this is great. We actually, at that time we moved. Well, so we were accepted. And a year goes by. So we move. We move to university housing. Because my ex was accepted to grad school. So we go into family housing. And oh my God, it was so nice! We find a community there. We meet people from Latin America. We make friends. We're really close to his brother, who also lives in that housing. And you know? Everything's great. So we start going to school. And it's very tough, because I'm working fulltime. No, no, I'm lying. I'm working part time. So my fulltime job at Wisconsin Environmental Decade becomes--was it fulltime? I can't remember now. I was working different hours. No, I was still fulltime. But I was working odd hours. So I would go to school and also work there. So it was very intense. Very intense. But you know, I was loving what I was doing. And I was actually really good at it. I found out that, you know my grades when I was studying sociology weren't that great. But when I was doing this degree, everything was As. And I wasn't, it wasn't a twist of the arm. It came so naturally. I didn't feel that I was working. It was like, oh my God, this is so much fun. I love it. So I landed where I could thrive and succeed. And I was loving it. So two years go by. So we are now in 1992. And I am so successful at this degree. You know, I get on the dean's list. Well, I didn't even know there's a dean list. But anyway, so I graduated with super high 01:06:00 honors. And I'm like, you know, I don't want to stop here. I want to learn more. I want to learn more art. I want to learn how to really draw, and how to really paint. Because I had a little taste of it in this program, but I wanted more. You know, I really wanted more. So I decided to transfer my credits to UW. So in 1992, I think, or '93, I get accepted into UW. And what's nice is that all my credits from MATC are transferred. And also all my credits from Ecuador are transferred. So I only need to do about a year and a half to get my bachelors of science in art. So I'm like, yes! And I'm so happy with it. You know, I love it. I love it, love it, love it. That's when I start at UW. And, let's see-- 00:49:15 SL: I know we talked about your studies here last time. When, because I know you also had children. When in your time, or when did you have children? When does that happen? SF: Oh, that doesn't happen until I'm in grad school, until later. SL: When you're in grad school. Okay. SF: I waited eight years to have kids. Till my son is born when I'm graduating from grad school in 1995. So all this time, it's just the two of us. And it's a lot easier to be working that hard and focus on ourself. SL: Sandra, I wonder if you could clarify. I thought you were saying that you got to the US in '87. SF: Mm hmm. SL: And then when are you going to MATC? SF: '87, '88, let me see, 1990? I think. Let's see. Yeah. Or, yeah, 1990 is when I start MATC. SL: And then you get your master's at UW Madison in '93. And then you get your MFA in '95, right? SF: Yes. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. SL: And when is your son born? SF: In 1995. SL: Okay. Okay. So like as you're graduating, or after you finish school? 00:50:56 SF: Yes. He is four months when I'm taking him to get my diploma with me. We marched together to get my diploma. So he was born in January and my degree was in May 1995. Mm hmm. SL: And then we talked a little about your exploring your childhood in your books last time. You also mentioned the paper doll series last time. And I know that you did, after you left Madison, I think it was, you did a larger scale work where the skirt was almost like a tent. And people could go inside it and explore that feeling that you had mentioned of kind of a skirt as a hiding place or a, I don't know-- SF: A shelter. SL: Shelter. Yes. Thank you. So I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about how that work evolved from your books here in the MFA program that were starting that doll series. And then from there, how it evolved. SF: Okay. So my MFA is my artist books. And one of the pieces that I start working on, the one actually that's in the collection, is the skirt. And I start already thinking about this idea of the under the skirt there. But then, so I graduated from UW, I get my first job. And when my ex-husband, we traveled a lot, we moved a lot. He got a lot of fellowships in different places, so we moved to different universities. 00:53:07 SL: So he graduated-- SF: We were moving constantly. And he also, like, 01:09:00 yes. So after the artist book series, I started the paper doll series. This is when we were living at Brown University in Rhode Island. And I remember clearly that that summer, actually, before we moved, I had been back to Ecuador for the first time. Or maybe not for the first time, but I had come back to Ecuador. Yeah, it wasn't the first time, I'm sorry. It was before. But anyway, so I had been-- SL: So how many years had passed when you went back? SF: (sighs) You know, I think that it was when my son was born, 1995. Yes. When he was born, I went back. So, okay. So we're living in Rhode Island. Oh, so I went back to Ecuador and I was looking through my drawers and all these things that I had left behind. And I came across this bag with all my paper dolls when I was a child. And I love to play with them. And I save everything. And I had saved them. So I decided to bring them. So when I'm in Rhode Island, I'm a fulltime mom and I'm working at home. I didn't teach, or I wasn't working outside of the house that year. So I wanted to make a new body of work. And I started looking at these paper dollars. And also I was actually reading this author called Sandra Cisneros. SL: Oh, yes. SF: The House on Mango Street. 00:55:19 SL: Mm hmm. SF: And connecting my paper dolls with that reading is what made my Cucas, my paper doll series. Those two things inspired me so much that that's when I began to make them. And yeah, they were, the paper doll series is centered around gender, being a girl, growing up. Being a girl and being exposed to all the different situations. That's what the paper doll series is about. You know, being a woman, being a mom, being a wife, being a daughter, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So the shape of the dress becomes very, very important in my work. And to me, it's a symbol of who I am. And I was saying before that the shape of the dress still is present in my work today. Not so obvious at sometimes, but it's always present. Either as the shape of a pentagon--no, what is the shape? A trapezoid. It's always there. So after the paper doll series, at this time, at this point I'm living in Buffalo, New York. SL: Okay. SF: And was this before or after? God, I'm getting my dates confused now. SL: That's okay. 00:56:57 SF: So I win a proposal for the city of Buffalo to--was this before or after? Yeah, this was before. For a commission for a public art piece. And the call was for woman artists to talk about an influential woman that you wanted to pay homage to. And you know, I'm thinking I don't want to talk about people that have already been talked about. I want to talk about people that, about a woman that nobody talks about. The woman behind the scenes. The supporters of the famous men. Or the women that are the caretakers of famous sons or famous daughters. So I'm really taking it on that aspect. So I create this piece called Homage to the Unknown Woman. And it's an outdoor sculpture where I have the same concept and idea of some of those paper doll series, where the audience is peeking inside and under the skirt. Looking into, and this 01:12:00 sculpture is kind of see through. And you get different layers of vision and intellectual meaning, I would say, by seeing through it, in and out, and little details. So after I make this skirt, this public art installation-- SL: And where is that? SF: This is in the city of Buffalo, New York. SL: Okay. So it is in Buffalo, too. You're living there and that's where the work is. 00:59:10 SF: Yes. Yes. At the same time, I propose for an individual exhibition at the Castellani Museum in Niagara Falls and I win the proposal. Which was the big skirts, the big tipis, they look like tipis. But they're big skirts. And that's when I create these--oh, excuse me, somebody's--okay. I'm sorry. SL: That's okay. SF: That's when I create these humongous skirts. But at this point, actually, I'm living in Los Angeles. We moved there for a year. So again, I have another full year to just work on this new installation. And they are eight feet by eight feet. And yes, you can go under the skirt. And the skirt has the outside and the inside. And there are three skirts. And these are about, the first one is called Innocence. The second one is called dubitation, the names are in Latin. Inocensia, innocence, dubitation, doubt, and what's the other one? And the third one is--well, it's about older age. I can't remember the title right now. So the three, each one of them is talking about the different times in your life. The different kinds of elemental, the big chunks of, in your life. So the first one is about childhood. And on the outside of the skirt--and everything is on paper and printmaking. Printmaking and paper and a little bit of fabric and sewing. So the first one, on the outside, I had collected my children's drawings until that time. I can't remember how old they were. Let's see. Probably five or six years old, seven. Anyway, so I had collected their drawings. So I used their drawings on the outside of the skirt. And to me, the outside is what, how things should be. How humanity should be. How children should be. You know, happy, making beautiful drawings with bright colors. Not worrying about a thing. Just being children. In the inside of the skirt is the reality of life. And I have images, it's bigger than life-size portraits of children that are staring and looking at you straight with writings underneath that says, "I don't have anything to eat," or, "My brother was killed yesterday." Or, "I have to hide under the table when my dad comes home." You know, all these things that in reality happen to children all over the world. So this is the first skirt. You know, outside beauty, inside reality. Not beauty. Outside, well, what you would like to be. And inside, reality. SL: Sure. 01:02:48 SF: And the second one is about adolescence. And this one, you actually cannot go in it. Because when you're an adolescent, you protect yourself. You push everybody away. And the second one is about what, I believe that at that point of your life is a turning point. 01:15:00 Let's say that you had a really horrible childhood. And at that point you decide, okay, I'm going to move on and I'm going to make something out of my life and ignore everything, all the problems that I had. And become a good person. Or become successful. Or do something for my life. Or, the contrary, you know. I'm just going to dwell on my horrible life and not do anything about my life. And just, you know, be--just suck, basically. So it's the outside. And so this one, so on the inside you see all these faces again of adolescents. And a lot of detail and connections. And the viewer is seeing this from the outside. And the third one is adulthood. SL: And that one, I think it's Experiencia. Is that how you say that? SF: Yes! Yes! Thank you! (laughs) SL: You're welcome. 01:04:12 SF: You know more about my work now. I like it. (laughs) Yeah, it's Experiencia experience. And this one is about becoming old. And seeing your life, go through and see all the tragedies, inhumanity. And on the outside, it's what I call wrinkles. And it's all sewn in this fabric and it's very spiritual. It's more thinking okay, I've lived my life. Now I have to rest and be calm and be peaceful to transition to whatever's next. And then the inside, again, I have the portraits of old people staring at you. And what I like about this image is that you can see their life through their skin, their wrinkles. And you know, it's like the passage of time. And then at the bottom part of it, you see, I put pictures of all the horrors in humanity, you know. Not all, but some of them. Like Auschwitz, and world wars, and rapes and things like that. So these people are kind of above all these things they have witnessed in life. So that's what these three pieces are about. And I think I overextended myself explaining these. I'm so sorry. SL: No, no, no. This is very interesting. And I like how it connects to your work that we have in the Kohler. I think that's really interesting to hear how your exploration of this kind of progressed along the years. SL: I know we're getting to the end of time, but did you want to talk a little bit, I know that you have taught printmaking and book arts. 01:06:14 SL: Did you want to talk a little bit about your work as a teacher? SF: Sure. Sure. So after I graduated, I was very interested in artist books. And actually my first job teaching was in photography. But after that, yeah, I was teaching photography at Illinois State University. But after that, all my jobs were teaching book arts. So the first one after that was at SUNY Buffalo. And I was actually teaching book design. And artist books, excuse me, bookmaking became such an important departure point for me. And so I always taught it as artist books. My 01:18:00 classes were structured, I would give the basic information in terms of traditional book binding. And then I would ask students to just break out of the binds and explore and make more sculptural books versus traditional ones. But my courses were always a combination of both, I would say? So I taught book design first. And then, let's see, at Illinois State, yeah. I was always teaching artist books. The departments were really interested in someone doing artist books. Because it connected all the different areas in an art department. So I had students that were from sculpture, from painting, from ceramics, from jewelry, from graphic design. And they could all thrive making books because they could bring in their strengths into the bookmaking. And they would always refer back to the idea of a book that we discussed last time. So I had beautiful books made out of ceramics, for example, and then the bindings were with wire. Or I had people from jewelry using metal. Oh my god, I have an amazing collection of slides of the works that my students have done throughout the years. And every time, every single place that I've taught at, I have taught bookmaking. Except for the last one, that I taught silkscreen, but that's different. So, yes. So bookmaking has been--but also, but it's interesting because contrary to--so I've been teaching bookmaking and I have not been making many books in my own practice. So I've made--I guess the biggest body of work was my MFA of books. 01:09:17 SL: Sure. SF: And then I made books sporadically. So that's something interesting. I devoted my life to teaching books, but not so much to making books. SL: Well is there anything that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about yet? SF: Oh my God, I think I've talked even more than what you wanted me to talk about. (laughter) SL: No, no. You were great. SF: But if you have any questions. If you feel that I haven't touched on something. Do you want me to mention something about my current work? SL: Yeah. Would you like to take us to today, and what you're doing now? 01:09:58 SF: Yes. Absolutely. So for the last ten years, I've focused more on printmaking. Again, I was teaching making books and printmaking. And I turned myself into doing that. But now that I moved to New Jersey, I'm not teaching fulltime here right now. So I decided to go back to two-dimensional work and two-dimensional, yeah, two-dimensional works. So I have been making actually installations. And I'm still using all my same materials. My same palette of paper and sewing and you know, I'm a mixed media artist. I combine things. And actually something that I mentioned before, in Ecuador they call 01:21:00 me, they call my art, art of mestizaje which is the mixture of two cultures. And I say that that's what it is. Because I do mix cultures very clearly in my work. Like you know, my work is "weird," quote unquote. You know, it's not traditional. It's not what you will think about when you think about a print. And we talked about this before. Anyway, so now I'm emphasizing even more the combination of materials. And actually my work has become more political. I am talking about, it's still very personal. But it's more universal now. And I'm really talking about contemporary political issues. Currently I'm working on war and violence. And I actually just had an opening yesterday of a show where I have a piece, it's called Sanctuary of Tears. And interesting enough, it carries on the structure of a dress. But it's less defined. It incorporates bullet cases and teardrops and fabric. So I don't know where I'm going to go next, but I'm having fun. (laughs) SL: Thank you so much, Sandra. I really appreciate it. I'm going to turn this off now. 01:12:34 End of Second Interview Session Third Interview Session (June 18, 2018): Digital File SL: Today is June 18, 2018. I'm Sarah Lange with the oral history program at UW Madison. I'm talking with Sandra Fernandez. This is part three of her oral history and we're just wrapping up a few things. Sandra is talking from her home, and I'm at the University Archives at Steenbock Library. Sandra, I know last time we talked a little bit about the influence or the impact that your son had on your work. And you wanted to talk a little bit about your daughter. Would you care to share a little bit about how she has impacted your work? SF: Sure. Sure. So last time I was talking about how my artist books were created with the intention to leave a legacy for my children. At that point, I only had my son Sebastian. But I knew I wanted to have more kids. So this was a general, something for both my kids. And basically I want them to know where they came from. You know, who their ancestors were. And I just wanted them to feel proud of their roots, of their parents. And also a big concern of mine was for them to know Spanish. So through all these books, I wanted to start with a connection for them for the future. So when I started working on my paper doll series, I actually had my daughter in mind. And when I started making them, she was turning one year old. And I wanted to share my story with her as a woman. And she actually became my inspiration as the series progressed. And I already talked about in general what the paper dolls meant. So I just wanted to add this little thing that knowing that I had a daughter, I really wanted to, you know, to create these works for her, basically. So that was a little thing I wanted to add about my daughter. SL: And Sandra, has she, I take it now that she's seen your paper doll series and your books that, like we talked about in the first session. What has she said about your work? Has she said anything to you about it? 00:03:04 SF: You know, that's interesting you asked me that. We have never really discussed my work. Although she is very close to, and she's always been really close to my studio, to what I do. And she's actually a very talented artist. She doesn't do that as her main passion. But she draws really well. And she's very creative. So I think that, you know, something splashed down to her. (laughs) But no, we have not discussed the work specifically. But I did create one piece specifically for her, which was called For My Little Andrea: May You Never Feel Trapped. And that piece was kind of pivotal--pivotal, is that how you say it? Pivotal? Pivotal? P-i-v-o-t-a-l? SL: Yes. Pivotal. SF: Pivotal (laughs) in my work because I was going through a hard time in my relationship. And I was feeling trapped and I was feeling, having all these emotions and ideas. And I created that work for her. You know, trying to say be an independent woman, and don't rely on a man. So that piece is hers. And I think she understands now that she's older what it meant. So, you know, responding to your question, maybe we have not openly talked about the works, but I think that she has learned from them. Because despite, like I think that she's 20 times--not 20. Two thousand times better than me. And she's a very independent woman and so she's a lot of the things that I hesitated to be growing up as a woman. So I think that perhaps some of the ideas that were implied in my work kind of splashed out onto her in a way. (laughs) You know, and listened to me talking about life and feminism and things like that. Which derived from the work that I was making. I think that there's some sort of connection there. And I'm glad that I had the opportunity to make these works so she could learn from my mistakes, in a way, you know, from the things that I didn't do or that I went through being a woman. So, yeah. (laughs) That's a long answer for a short question, personal question. (laughs) 00:06:11 SL: Is there anything else that you'd like to add about your family? SF: Yeah. They were, you know, I was thinking about how when I was talking to you 01:24:00 last time I was talking about my relationship with my ex-husband, you know, and I was talking a lot about us and about how my life progressed with him. And I was thinking oh my God, you know, I shouldn't be talking about all these things. Because that was my life with him. But then again, I am who I am because of all my past experiences. But one thing that I wanted to mention is, in relationship to that, that my work, until a little after my divorce, was very centered on very personal issues of loss and abandonment. And I think that slowly I have been finding my center back into being a whole person. And this kind of relates with my present relationship. And life, I think that as an artist, you cannot just be an artist. You're an artist because of who you are and what happens in your life, and all the spaces that you have, of course. So I just wanted to mention briefly this thing. I think that I kind of find my center again when I reconnected with my high school sweetheart. (laughs) Which in a way has been very interesting because I have been able to come around and reconcile my life with my childhood or being a young adult with this reconnection with him. Because I didn't only do this, but also reconnected with all my childhood friends from Ecuador. So it has been a very interesting process. And I keep thinking that after, again, after my divorce and after reconnecting with him, I have been slowly starting getting rid of my childhood afflictions and start trusting again, in a way. So my work, it started changing for the last, maybe, I don't know, five or six years. And I have started opening up to things that don't center around my own suffering but in that of others as well. And I started connecting my own experiences with those of others. And interestingly enough, the themes in my work have returned to where I initially started. And I think I mentioned this before, too, more often concerned with social and political commentary. So you know, that's something that you start reflecting upon when you, you know, when you keep maturing and you keep getting older. These are things that you don't see when you're younger in the middle of it. It's super interesting to kind of look back. That's why I love this interview and the questions that you're asking me, because it has really forced me to look back, you know, and to think about why, the why of many things. And why I am here now, and what does it mean. And also kind of project the future. But so, and another last thing that I wanted to make a point about, which is very important to note, that I have lived in the United States longer now than the time I lived in Ecuador. And I also had mentioned before that when I returned to the USA, my idea about this country was very different than what it is now. And you know, now I can say that I love this country with all its great things and with all its flaws, too. You know, this place is not perfect. This country's not perfect. But it has a lot of amazing things. And it's interesting because probably twelve years ago, I can't say that I felt that the US was my home. I always kept thinking I want to go back to Ecuador. I want to go back. I want to go back. And that kind of idea helped me get through a lot of hard times. And I always thought it's okay, you know, this is transitory. But you know, time has gone by and now I feel that the United States is my home. Like I cannot think about now going back to Ecuador to live there. Which is super interesting, because when I came, you know, I wasn't thinking that. But again, you know, I have opened up and learned and understand and admire, you know, like I admire 01:27:00 a lot of people in this country. I understand, I support, you know. So I just wanted to also put that down as this idea of going around in circles and results of things and coming back and realizing and change, too. 00:12:32 Which I think is very reflected in the way I make art. If you see my trajectory, there is a connection between my work. There is a definite connection. But there's a lot of evolution and change. There are some artists that you see that have kept working in one idea forever. And you know, you see a work of art and you know without doubt, you say, oh, such and such person did this. Because you just know a specific thing and it keeps, it keeps going for them. But you can tell. I don't know if this makes sense or not. In my work, I get very bored of doing the same thing. So I'm always changing and trying to find new ways of expressing things. And I love to learn new techniques. I'm always adding things that even I have invented in a way, in my head, maybe. So my work is really a reflection, 100 percent reflection of who I am. I mean this sounds very repetitive and probably silly, but that's what my life has been, a constant surge in reinventing myself and trying to build something that now has become completely who I am. So I guess that's what I wanted to add as a closing kind of wrapping up all the things that we have talked and discussed. And I don't know if you have more questions, or-- SL: Well, you mentioned that you continually explore different techniques. I'm wondering what you're looking at now. What are you experimenting with right now? 00:14:52 SF: Well actually I have been working with printmaking for maybe ten years. And now I'm experimenting with objects, with three-dimensional things and 3-D objects. And it's interesting because I'm working on this print right now. But I am basing it--okay, more concretely. I have been a little bit obsessed with this idea of loss and violence in the last few years. And I am working with bullet cases. So I'm building things out of bullet cases. And then I'm photographing them and I'm making prints with those photographs plus other elements. But I'm also making the objects in real life. So I'm kind of going back and forth between a 3-D object that I'm making, photographing it, removing it and then bringing it back into a print with other elements. That's what I'm currently working on. And I have not dome three-dimensional things for a while. So now I'm super interested in doing, in making those again. And I don't know, I don't know where I'm going to end up. But I'm really excited because I really feel that it's kind of a new stage. That it's kind of starting and stirring up. It's cooking. (laughs) I feel it cooking inside of me. And it's super exciting because actually not being in academia fulltime, like I mentioned to you before, has kind of freed me up a little bit. And now I'm exploring even further the possibilities of what I can create and how I can express what I need to say. Yes, and I'm thinking about books, too, actually. I'm thinking about, the book as object is always in my head. But now I'm interested also in making books that are more conventional. Like regular books. I have a lot of projects going on in my head, which is super nice. I just need more hours in a day. (laughter) To do the work that I want to do. SL: And Sandra, would you like to talk a little bit more about how you reconnected with your high school sweetheart and your other fellow students? 00:17:50 SF: Yes. Yes. You're going to laugh. Facebook. (laughter) Yeah. When I was, shortly after I got separated from my ex-husband, I wanted to, I was very lonely and trying to figure out what to do next. And I decided to, I had opened a Facebook account before but never used it, didn't know what to do with it. So I decided to actually go in it and connect with the people that were far away in Ecuador. So I started adding little by little friends, little by little. And the school that I went to, as I told you before, was an 01:30:00 American School. It was called Colegio Americano de Quito. And a lot of the school mates had come to study to the United States and had stayed and lived here in many different cities. So I had, there was this one friend who actually lived in New York. No, New Jersey. So I connected with him. At this time, I was living in Texas. I connected with him and he's like, "Oh, hi, yes, yes, whatever." And then he was really close to my current boyfriend. And he told him to go on Facebook. He said, "Oh, you know, all our friends are on Facebook. And you should get on and you should sign up." So he signs up. (laughs) and then, he finds me. So that's how we reconnected. But talking, you know, and that's how we reconnected. And to make the story short, I moved to New Jersey so we can be together. 00:19:52 SL: Oh, okay. SF: So now we are together. SL: And when did you first connect on Facebook? And then move to New Jersey? SF: Really connected back in 2009. And then we started talking. And then we started seeing each other. And many, many years went by. And then we started going out. And then I moved to New Jersey in 2015. So it's like, what? Eight years? Five years? A long time. (laughs) SL: And where are your son and daughter? SF: Say that again? SL: Where are you son and daughter? SF: My son lives in Austin, Texas now. He graduated from college last year. And he started working, so he moved back to Austin. He lives there currently. And my daughter lives in Evanston, Illinois. Well she's graduating next--this week! She graduates this week from college! SL: Oh, wow. SF: So, yeah. (laughs) But she's going to stay in Chicago. She decided to stay in Chicago. She's a theater major and she actually just got a job offer to be in a Shakespeare in the park play in Chicago. So she's so excited. It's like her first real job after graduating. So she's super excited. And she's going to stay there for a little bit. Who knows how long? SL: Well thank you for sharing everything, Sandra. Is there anything else that you want to add? SF: Oh my God, I talked too much about so many things. I hope not. (laughter) SL: Well thank you. SF: Sure. It's been really interesting to me, too, to have this introspection back into my past. And you know, it's interesting, because sometimes you move these emotions and these feelings and these things that you don't know--well, you don't know the effect that's going to have on you. And I did not know there were so many things that I still, I don't know, hadn't completely worked out, I guess? Or hadn't thought about in a long time. So it's been great. You know, I want to thank you, because it has really made me remember who I am. Because sometimes you forget. Life goes by so fast. And you get immersed in things and you kind of lose perspective of certain things. So I appreciate this interview because it has thrown me back in. and I love that. So thank you. (laughs) SL: Thank you. It's been a pleasure talking with you, Sandra. SF: Thank you, Sarah. 00:23:07 End of