00:00:00UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Interview #1780 GOMEZ, MARTA
GOMEZ, MARTA
Interviewed: 2018 Interviewer: Sarah Lange Transcribed by: Teresa Bergen Length:
3 hours, 30 minutes
First Interview session (May 19, 2018): Digital File
SL: So today is May 19, 2018. I'm Sarah Lange with the oral history program at
UW Madison. I'm talking with Marta Gomez, book artist, UW alum, and head of the
book conservation laboratory at Memorial Library at her house in Madison. So
Marta, you grew up in Colombia. Could you talk a little bit about what it was
like there?
MG: I grew up in a big family. And there was a lot of interesting visual arts in
my family. And applied arts in particular. Architecture, engineering and
photography. And so just I grew up in going to Catholic schools where the
emphasis is in making you a good wife, I guess. So I did a lot of sewing. I
00:01:00mean, it's a great education. Catholic schools have very good curriculums. But I
did some art, but it wasn't a big emphasis in anything in particular. We learned
how to do certain probably home economics in one of our classes. And in my
vacation, Colombia doesn't have summer camps. So during vacation time, as I was
a little older, I started taking some craft workshops and did some painting in
wood, and did other things with fabrics. And I realized that I had a lot of
pleasure working with my hands. I was never so good at the classes in the
00:02:00school, because you needed to know how to knit, to make a little outfit for
babies or to do, you know, things for the woman. So that was not that
interesting to me. But when I started taking these art workshops, like craft
workshops, that's when I realized that I really enjoyed working with paint and
brushes and tools to carve in the wood. And that was probably my beginning. And
later on, my brother took up photography. He had a lab in the house. I started
getting more interested in attending exhibitions. Then when I decided to, time
came to go to the university, I was interested in going into the art, to the
00:03:00disappointment of my father, in particular. Because he was hoping I was going to
be an architect or an engineer, which is another trait of my family. A lot of
cousins are civil engineers, in particular. And art didn't seem like a big thing
for him. My mom was very supportive. I went into art. I was accepted at a very
good university, the National University of Colombia, which has a really good
reputation in Colombia. It's difficult to get in. So I was very proud, and they
were very proud that I was able to get in. My brother was already in that
university doing architecture. And in the first year, I just took classes like
00:04:00everybody does, general classes. Drawing. And we had to decide in the second
year what we wanted to do. And I'd been since very young very detail-oriented.
And I did like always to have things specifically organized. So I, a lot of
things didn't seem to have that as part of their, when I was taking these
classes in ceramics, it was a little more loose, a little more messy. And when I
started taking graphic design, I thought that that's what I was more ready to
do. Because graphic design really demands a lot of different attention to a lot
00:05:00of detail in typography, page design. And in the program we were exposed to
different kinds of graphic design. Corporate image, which has to do with logo,
has to do with letters. And how to use that for the letterhead of the company,
the business, the business cards. And I love all that. I love working with space
and text. Then we did also books. And I started working with primarily books
that had some didactic purpose, which they were more geared to children. So I
00:06:00work with alphabet book. I then took packaging design. And packaging design, you
learn to work with paper, of course, making different folds in the paper to make
the paper strong. It was not quite like origami. I never did origami. But we
needed to do enclosures for things out of just maybe paper stock, a little
thicker than regular paper. And then I realized that I could combine that with
books. Because I liked the idea of books that were more three dimensional. So I
did a few things. But in that at the time, the books that I did, I only designed
00:07:00them. And there were some where I had more, I was more involved in the book
structure. But as far as printing, we didn't, we had to do it with, at the time
there were no computers. And also we just used very mechanical kind of way of
doing it. So I, and when I was doing logos, which I also enjoyed, and you needed
to do a final thing. We actually design it and then give it to somebody that was
technician to actually print it on the card. So we never, there was kind of a
gap in between making things and the results of things. In the books, I had a
00:08:00little more control, a little more to do with the book. They were never
editioned, because some of the books were kind of involved. They were just
projects. So we were not expected to edition things. I also worked on poster
design, on billboard design. And, when I finished my degree, I was fortunate
enough that I got a job in graphic design more in the commercial aspect of it.
So it was a large company and I was part of, it wasn't necessarily a huge office
where I was. But for way too long, I was doing the same thing. It was pasting
text on things that they, I didn't have too much space for creativity. I was
told what to do, where to put it, how to line everything. And it's probably how
00:09:00this jobs start. You know, you need to do very repetitive work. And I lost my
fascination for that kind of work. And I started looking into other
possibilities. And I had some friends that had taken time to go abroad and get a
little, you know, more exposure to the world. And I decided to probably try
that. But my first concern was the language. So I decided on coming to the
United States. Making a decision that seemed very good at the time. And it
didn't really turn out to be the place for me. I grew up in a big city, Bogota,
00:10:00the capital. And I was exposed to a lot of cultural activities, you know, like
big cities always offer. And I choose Nebraska, Omaha, because I thought that
nobody that spoke Spanish was going to be there.
SL: Oh, okay.
00:10:30
MG: Meaning everybody went to Miami, to New York, to California, to Texas. Those
were the destinations. And they never really learned much English. So I was very
conscious about that and I looked through different possibilities that offered
these programs, English as a second language, and I choose Omaha. And in many
ways, was a good experience to be somewhere else. But the city didn't provide
00:11:00what was fulfilling to me. And I was learning some English, of course. But most
of the people that were in my classes were at the same level. So the English
really never was-and the fact that I also felt very limited to explore the city.
I didn't have a car. And you know, I was also in classes and we were taken to
places. We were treated more like, I felt treated more like a kid because we
were trying to express ourselves. And when you are learning a language, that's
sometimes how it comes out a little. And I decided that, you know, it was not
the place I should have gone, but I didn't have any other plan. So I made, well
00:12:00I lived with a family, and that was very nice. I met nice people. It wasn't bad.
But it was kind of in the middle of nowhere, for me, that place.
SL: And can you tell us like about what time this was? Was it in the early '80s?
12:32
MG: That was in the early '80s. And I'm sure things have changed. Like
everywhere else, it's becoming a little more lively, these places. In fact,
Omaha has a very good, I don't know if they still do, but there was a printing,
letterpress printing facility within the university. I don't think it was in the
time I was, in the time I wasn't exposed to these, so I wasn't looking for these
00:13:00things. The university where the program was housed, it was housed there, but it
didn't really belong to the university. But we were able to use some of the
facility. So the museum wasn't very exciting, what they have. So things were
very, to me things were very slow. And I was in contact with my friends back in
Colombia. And they were all doing really interesting things. And I felt very
homesick in many ways. I felt that my experience was okay. And I was fortunate
to have it, but I thought it was going to be just time for me to move on. And I
met two people there, two sisters from Bolivia. They were in the program. And
one of them was coming to Madison. She had a, she was going to be in radiology
00:14:00as a technician. So it was only a two-year program. So we kept in touch when I
was still in Omaha. And she said, "Maybe you want to come to this city. It's
lively, a lot of things going on. It's beautifully located, has a great
university." And she was very happy in the program. And she of course wrote to
me these, soon after she left, because we were feeling a little out of sorts in
Omaha. And she knew that I was really probably just getting myself alone out of
Omaha. And with destination back to Colombia. But then she said "Why don't you
come here and stop and stay here for some time?" And I stopped in my way,
00:15:00really. I took a bus and never had taken a ride that long. Actually, Omaha was
my very first experience alone away from my family. And my family is very,
families in Colombia, very close. And mine is not different. I'm the youngest in
my family. So it was, I was, you know, very independent, even when I was in
Colombia, as independent as we can be in a big family. And maybe for that
reason, my mom was so supportive of letting me go. Because she knew I was, I
needed that. But I was also feeling when I was here that that independency that
I had, I couldn't really exercise it here because I had limitations. I needed a
00:16:00little more, little more of the language. I was in a place that wasn't offering
many things. So I decided well, maybe this is not for me. Maybe I'm going back.
And I stop here in Madison. And it was lovely. It was probably April into May, I
think. And she had already made some friends. An interesting group of people,
and they were all talking about how wonderful the university was. And that it
has a very strong art department. Especially printmaking was top of, I think it
still is considered pretty strong. But at the time, it was, everybody was
talking about it. And I thought maybe I would give it a try. I applied. And I
00:17:00was accepted. There was a process, of course. Because I didn't have my portfolio
from Colombia here. I had to do a portfolio when I graduated there. And that
probably alone was not going to help me to get into the program here. So I was
accepted as a special student. And that's how we started taking some courses
that I needed as requirements that I didn't have when my transcript was sent.
And one of the courses was in typography. Another one was in serigraphy. As I
said, we didn't do a lot of technical, we didn't have access to a shop where
00:18:00they did serigraphy, and it was very needed. So especially in graphic design,
posters and that, we actually only had the concept of the poster and gave it to
somebody else to do it. So here having the chance to learn all that, and because
it was a requirement, I took these classes. And my first class in typography was
with Phil Hamilton. And Phil Hamilton was more into graphic design. And was a
little, because I didn't really want, I didn't want to go into graphic design
again, but I thought it probably is going to be different here. It will be
advanced in many ways, if that was my college. So I took typography with Phil.
And that was my first exposure to letterpress printing. And it was second nature
00:19:00to me, even though I'd never done it, because I loved the attention to detail.
It's very meticulous kind of craft. Requires patience. And I feel I had all
those skills, I just needed to explore more. And I started doing typography in a
different, I think we had to do different aspects of like a broadside. We even
did also a business card, a letterhead panel in this new technique that it was
so new to me. And I realized that my work was somewhat unusual. The way I
00:20:00approached the book, especially when we had to design a book, I had these skills
because I always loved working with three-dimensional things. And I think it
came from my classes in packaging design. And knowing how to fold paper to make
interesting structures. So I did a book that actually called the attention of my
professor at the time. And he was very encouraging to pursue that. I did a book
that was about vowels. And it was, the content was a poem by Rimbaud. And it was
00:21:00in a hexagon shape. The stanzas, every one of the pages that was attached to the
side of the hexagon opened up. And the poem was printed in letterpress, and the
following page was the letter that the poem was written for, the vowel. So it
became very dynamic. That structure, it's hard to explain the structure. But
when the hexagon is completely open, it opens, it looks like a flower, you see
all the stanzas. And if you turn it over, you just see all the designs of the
00:22:00letters. So I used a letter in wood type and I made designs using just that
particular vowel. So it became also very abstract, because I love designing with
just one letter, and just play with it and making, sometimes that letter is
perfectly identified. And sometimes it becomes an abstract design. So I love
working, like my first time also with wood type. And I had the background of
working with type at that level, but not doing it myself, the printing. So that
was kind of for me a big discovery where I was able to do everything on my own.
00:23:00But you know, I was taking other classes, and I was trying to catch up with the
requirements to present my portfolio. And I was accepted in the MFA program
after, I think it was a semester and a summer.
SL: Sure.
00:23:31
MG: And, when I finally entered into the MFA program, I wanted to work with
Walter Hamady, because he had a different approach to the book. He was more into
fine print, what it's called. Book arts. And he was on a sabbatical. So I took
another class with Phil. And Phil is very enthusiastic, so he was always very
00:24:00encouraging. And I took photography and I kept doing some serigraphy with Dean
Meeker. And then it came this question about me. It was a new, I was confronted
with a new, by my professors, with a kind of a new identity of my ethnicity.
That I was never aware of. Because in Colombia, I grew up in a very urban
environment. I was also, you know, middle class, very solid middle class. So I
went to a good university. At the university we did a curriculum in art, was
00:25:00with a lot of exposure to European art, American art. But my professors were
wondering why I was in, you know, like they wanted me to project some tribal persona.
SL: Oh really.
00:25:22
MG: And then I realized that I did have, I do have very strong Indian features.
But I wasn't aware of it myself because Colombia population is also very mixed,
you know. Indian and Spanish came together. And that's a big part of the
population. And of course there are many other types, like any other culture has
very different types. People as fair as you, blond, blue eyes in certain
regions. But I just happened to have also very strong Indian features. And I'm
00:26:00now, I mean, not now, but I recognized that then. And I just, people kept asking
me that for instance is one of my pieces, and I do work with very abstract forms
when I do flat work. And even when I do my work in books, I like geometric
shapes and playing with that. And I then started doing things that turned out to
be interesting. Very interesting to me. But the intention was to show them yes,
well I can investigate my ancestors. So I did a major book with pre-Colombian
00:27:00objects that were from peoples from Colombia, exclusively. Because there's
pre-Columbian in Mexico, pre-Columbian in Peru, pre-Columbian in many parts of
South America. So I investigated. I did the research and I was very grateful
that I didn't just do it with the intention of, you know, giving them the
pleasure of seeing something tribal. But I didn't realize how fantastic this
design sensibility. And not just, very, very sophisticated design, the
00:28:00pre-Columbian cultures in my country, how they approached these. I did a book on
rodillos, which are rollers made from ceramic, stone. And they carved. And when
they are rotated on a flat surface, they create these designs. A pattern. And
that was used to print their face. And they prepared their own inks in order to
do that. And then they incorporated those designs also in fabrics and clothing.
00:29:00And I did one, I realize, there was one that was a clenched fist. And when it
rolled over the surface, printed an open hand.
SL: Interesting.
00:29:25
MG: And I was completely overwhelmed by that sophistication in that period. And
a lot of the patterns, I actually went to Colombia, talked to some people that
own these rollers. Took pictures. I also found in some books the designs that
they display as they were rolled on the fabrics. And the designs are as
00:30:00contemporary as any design. And they just beautiful designs. Very geometric. And
I loved it. I guess in Colombia, we, of course we know where we're coming from.
But we are never encouraged to appropriate those things to be part of our way of
expressing our creativity. Because that's not, you know, those were done then.
And I think I wanted to do this book just as a research book. And I did it as
artistically as I could to be able to present it as a, they were plates,
practically, that they could have been framed if they wanted to, with the
00:31:00roller, and printed in serigraphy. And then what I thought the roller would look
when rolled over and on cloth. And I printed that on a fabric. Just also to show
some of the uses of those rollers were for that purpose. But I also found it
printed on faces and that's very striking, when you see I ton a face, the same
patterns. So I did a series of, I did another couple of books where one has to
do more with African imagery. They're three-dimensional. They are based on an
accordion structure. And that was, these books were very visual, primarily
visual. I incorporated a little bit of text that was letterpress printed. And I
always was looking at books that were beautifully, a lot of, not a lot of text.
See what I did with these texts that were primarily visual was, for me, the most
00:32:00important part was the visual aspect, the imagery, that was treated very
three-dimensionally. And I did the introduction to give an idea of the book. But
I wanted to be able to work with more text. And when I finally was able to work
00:33:00with Walter Hamady, we took our first trip to the rare book collection to look
at artist books. And that was a revelation for me when I saw these just
beautiful books that were very much like the codexs, just turn the pages. And
some of the books only had text printed, with just a very, a design or just a
change of color in the line. Just one word was printed in a different color. And
the way the type was printed into this beautiful handmade paper was very, to me,
00:34:00was just beautiful. There was a beauty in it that was hard to explain because
now that was actually very magical. There was no, no, nothing different from the
way you open other books, regular books. But it was how the words were just
printed in this page, and how the titles were done. And how settled and quiet,
and at the same time, sensual, this media was. So I just wanted to do some more
00:35:00text but I don't write I don't keep a journal. I don't write poetry. And I was
looking for good text. And that I knew, what a good text was. But also, because
of the language, and I was able to express myself. I was able to, you know, read
English poetry. Or poetry in English. But I started working with a poet, did a
book, well, maybe that wasn't the first one. But I did a book with a Spanish
poet. And using primarily the text. Oh, I was also already making paper. And
that was another aspect of, another class that I loved, just how magical it was
00:36:00to do, to make paper. And I was making paper for printing. So it was very, it
requires to have a different skill that when you use it as a, end of a piece,
like when people do different pulp on the paper, collage, you're more free to do
different things on the paper, I wanted the paper to be printed on. And I also
love that, being able to get as, you know, good every time and make more paper.
And it requires a lot of trying, a lot of trying, because of the strength that
00:37:00you need to lift the mold from the water and get an even, perfectly even, paper.
So when I finally was able to get my paper to be good to print on, I use a
little bit of pulp to design on every sheet. And then that paper I used it just
to print these poems.
37:35
SL: Marta, do you remember who you took papermaking with?
MG: Yes. With Walter.
SL: You did. Okay.
MG: Walter was a big influence in my work. He was an extraordinary teacher.
Difficult person as well. Very inspiring. His typography is exquisite. And also
00:38:00he was a very good papermaker. And yes, I did papermaking with him, primarily.
And then I was told that maybe I should have some English, also, to go along
with my books, because then it limited the accessibility for people to enjoy the book.
SL: Because you were working with a Spanish poet?
MG: With Spanish poems. Spanish-
SL: Spanish language.
MG: The Spanish language. Right. And I thought it was interesting. Because
sometimes these books, like songs, you don't need to understand the words for
you to like the melody. And you think it is so beautiful and it really touches
00:39:00you. I knew a lot of songs that I never knew what the text said. It was just so
many other things that were beautiful about it. And then I learned English. And
then I listened to the same piece of music and I was able to understand. And in
some ways it was as beautiful as I thought it was before I learned the language.
So sometimes you don't need to understand everything. And I think that's also
why when I went to the rare book collection to look at these books, I wasn't
even reading the poems. I was just seeing the poems printed. How beautiful the
effect was. So I thought yeah, maybe that's right, you know, I should do some
books in English. And I worked with another poet. He's in the public domain. And
00:40:00his work is very, his words are very visual, too, the lines, playful. And also
with a lot of feeling, like poetry is. And I did a broadside that I made it into
a book because of the way it opened. Set it out in separate side because
broadside is just one page, flat page, that has all the elements of the book.
And that's how my structure was. But when I fold it, I was able to sew it. But I
could definitely show it as a broadside. Then it was folded. And it was made
into a small book. And it gave me the possibility to have the poem in Spanish
00:41:00and the poem in English.
41:08
SL: Do you remember which poet that was?
MG: Yeah. Vallejo. Peruvian. Cesar Vallejo. And I just happened to, that was a
student project. (laughs) So I was not checking with copyright. And that's your
field. I mean, you work in publishing.
SL: Sure.
MG: So I use a translation, but I gave credit in my colophon to the translator.
SL: Sure.
MG: I don't know if (laughs) And I thought it was enough. I wasn't going to do
anything with the book. It was a class project.
SL: Sure. It wasn't for sale.
MG: It wasn't for sale. But I editioned it because Walter required an edition of
00:42:00the book. We always gave him a copy and we kept a copy. I felt oh, why not.
Eshelman was the poet that translated Vallejo. He himself is a poet. And that
was very well-received, that book. The fact that I made a broadside into
practically a book. And the way that the translation was revealed as you
unfolded the page was also played really well with the whole book. And then I'm,
I wanted to move on and do maybe look for things that were not poetry. And at
00:43:00the time, I had met Ivan. I met Ivan at the beginning of my studies. And I thought-
SL: How did you meet?
43:13
MG: Oh. We just met at a social event. It was not university-related. It was
just a gathering for a friend that was having a birthday. And he was Austrian.
And his Italian friend was very good friend. Lived all in the same building he
was in. So he invited us, my roommates, my Bolivian friends. And Ivan had just
come back from Italy. I don't know for how long he was in Italy. And he had met
00:44:00a man, I think he taught them Italian to the, some American program in Florence.
So he wanted to come to the States. And Ivan said well, I think that you could
try to come and teach Italian in the Italian department for a year as a visiting
professor. And you can, if you want, live in my house. And Ivan was divorced,
had been divorced at the time for some years. So he was here. And he got invited
to the party. So that's how we met. And he told me he was a professor in
philosophy, which I found very interesting. Although I never really did, I did
00:45:00philosophy, but not very well. That was part of my curriculum in high school.
And you know, he spoke Italian. I spoke Spanish. (laughs) And that worked really
well, because I do understand Italian. It's very close. I mean, it's not, but I
was very shy with him. Very shy. And that made it very comfortable. And he has
always been fascinated with languages. So he knew a little Spanish, although his
Italian was, and we, we just met at that party. And then later on, not
immediately get relationship developed.
SL: Sure.
MG: And I told him that I was, actually, I was just been accepted in the
program. I had been here, because I was getting my portfolio.
00:46:00
SL: So you were saying that you wanted to work with material other than poems.
46:16
MG: Other than poems. So I ask him if he, and I didn't know if he understood
exactly what text, person that do these, work in this medium, needs. Because
academics write a lot. Long things. So I said, "No, no. Do you have any text
that is kind of interesting just not poetry, I'm not looking for poetry, but
things that are printable in these type of books." But he had only seen the
books that I did with not a lot of text. Ones that were very visual,
00:47:00three-dimensional. And he said, well, I was interested at one point, early in
his life, in aphorisms. And he wrote counter-aphorisms. And he loves playing
with words and you know, he had these interesting kind of take on the aphorism.
With sometimes a completely, taking the aphorism apart because everybody likes
to say, oh, what kills me makes me stronger. That sounds great, yeah. And his
response was very, I loved it, because he says no, but whatever diminishes me
kills me somehow. So people like to use aphorisms in a very loose way. They
00:48:00become cliches in many ways. So I thought, that's perfect! How many do you have?
He had about, he had a number. And he also had a little poem that was very, just
a few lines and punctuations. Line, one word, and punctuation. And I thought,
that's perfect. I mean, that's really going to fit. And he was a little
concerned how this was going to be illustrated. And he was hesitant. But I guess
at the time he thought, well, it's in your hands. And he always left in the
summer to go to Germany. He does German philosophy. And he liked to spend the
00:49:00summers, at the time, in Germany. And I took the text and I, that was a
challenge for me, because I usually worked in things that were, I didn't want to
illustrate it. A lot of those aphorisms cannot be illustrated. But I wanted to
have a feeling for them. Like some atmospheric kind of imagery that set the tone
for what does not kill me make me stronger. You know, like yeah, that needs to
be also very also abstract, but creating a feeling. And my friend, my very good
friend at the time, she's no longer in town, was a lithographer. And just a
masterful lithographer. And I ask her if she wanted to collaborate in this
00:50:00project. And that is what is so beautiful about books. You could collaborate
with people. And she looked at the text and she got very interested. And I like
her imageries is so, when you look at her work, you really can feel it. It's
sometimes very abstract. But it's very loaded with feeling. And I thought, this
is why I asked her. And she did beautiful lithographs. Just beautiful lithographs.
50:55
SL: And what is your friend's name? What was your friend's name?
MG: Phyllis McGibbon. She's primarily a printmaker and lithographer. She did
00:51:00etching. She does many things. And books. And when she does books, they are
just, she doesn't work in that media very much. But the ones she's done are very
beautiful. Well thought out, the imagery is very complex. And so she
collaborated with me. And it was printed from the stone. And it was on my
handmade paper, which could be a challenge, because there are paper exclusively
for lithograph. I mean, it's made for that. And I wanted to do it in my own
paper. So we worked very intensely. And it was a very small edition. But I still
00:52:00wanted to edition because it was going to be more text set that I ever did
before. And I thought it was a nice thing to edition. And we did a thirty, I
think it was thirty copies. And when the book was done, I had designed the
structure of the book and I had also designed how the book was going to be sewn
and covered and how it was going to be bound. And when I then returned from
Germany, I said, "Oh, the book is done. The book is finished." And he said, "I
00:53:00would love to see it." And when he saw the book, his first question is, "How
many copies?" I said, "Oh, many. Thirty." Thirty? Is that actually, could be,
for a book like that, at this moment I don't remember exactly how many
lithographs, but a lot of lithographs. And he said, "Thirty? How is that
possible? Only thirty?" I said, "Only? You have no idea what it takes to do
these books!" (laughter) And so he was completely shocked. He loved it. He
couldn't believe what has been done with the text. And he confessed that he was
very hesitant about the graphics on, that were going with the text. And he
00:54:00suddenly got very enthusiastic about doing more projects. And I still had this
typeset. I said, "Well there are only thirty copies with the lithographs. But if
you want, we can print a book that is in commercial paper. Wouldn't have the
lithos, but it would have the text. And it will be the same, exactly the same
without the lithos." And there was a little poem in that. And that I was able to
do it, the poem didn't have a lot of, that didn't have any litho. So I said,
"And that one will be intact." The way I broke the lines it was nice because it
needed the poses, it was a very meaningless poem. So we made another, probably
00:55:00another twenty copies of a second edition without the images. And he was able to
give it away to his family. Because he wanted to share that book. And then when
we decided to collaborate again with him, you know, working on the text and
Phyllis working on the lithographs, because we both were very happy with the
results, the three of us. So we made sixty. And that was a big number. Because
you know, I like us to make boxes for my books. All my books are boxed. So that
becomes a big project. But it's what I love about that media. It's very
intimate. It's very, you are practically in contact with every step of that, you
00:56:00know, the papermaking, the setting of the type, the designing of the structure,
and the execution of the printing. Which is, you know, as a student of Walter,
I'm very, very focused on the impression in the paper, everything. And it is,
it's something that when the viewer is interacting with the book, I want the
viewer to experience the book intellectually and tactically. And in order to
have that experience. Because I want them to have the experience I had the first
00:57:00time I looked at one of these books. You just touch the paper and it's in itself
very sensual. I think that books is a multi-sensual experience. Books of some
sort. Book arts comes in so many different ways now. And when I did book arts
when I was working, when I did my MFA, computers were not available the way they
are now. And the temptation of using so many different typefaces, people cannot
resist. So the pages are crowded. And they could have a beauty in that
crowdedness if you know how to use type well, that always looks-well, but when
what you look for is simplicity and just the focus on the-well, I don't work
00:58:00with computers much. I use it as a tool to set up text that is shaped. And then
I try to do it in the letterpress finally. Letterpress is very tricky because of
the spacing.
SL: Sure.
00:58:32
MG: So sometimes you can do it in the computer and then shape it into a
parallelogram, might not translate very well when you're setting it in
letterpress. I don't like to use a lot of hyphens in paragraphs. That I learned
from Walter. And he uses a lot of text in his books. And hardly ever, and his
shapes, sometimes he has shapes. But he writes his own text. And you can do
00:59:00that, you can just change the wording and you might be able to fix it. So, yeah,
I've seen some digital books that are called artist books that are nice. I've
never really seen them in, I've seen them in websites. So I cannot say I have
hold one and have the experience that I have when I hold the handmade
letterpress-printed book.
SL: Sure. So when you were studying graphic design in Colombia, you weren't
using computers then, were you?
MG: Oh, no, no. No. That's, no. Computers were not used. So we did a lot of
paste-up. One of the books that I did in Colombia had to do with the alphabet.
And each page, which letter of the alphabet, had lines that started with that
01:00:00letter. But those reflect, like for the L, the L I talked about lines. And I
actually, we were encouraged to look in magazines and do cutouts. And then try
to space them in the page. And that was also very challenging, but interesting.
Because you'd look for different typefaces that went together. And you, that I
brought, you know, I had to write something which every line started with the
letter that I was trying to portray in that page. And I did it, I did a whole
lot of it. And yeah, no, computers. And we didn't have in my school access to
01:01:00technology. That's why I never really did serigraphy. We just design on paper.
And did letters, also, with tools that were appropriate, and stencils.
01:01:20
SL: I would think that that background really helped you when you started
working in book arts.
MG: Oh, tremendously. That was probably also what, how my skills were shaped.
And the fact that I liked that kind of work that was very detailed. And that was
time-consuming. But art is. Ceramics. I mean, even painting, printmaking,
01:02:00everything is time-consuming. But there is something about working with letters
that could be very, and that's why people now that grew up in the computer
world, they love the letterpress when they are exposed to it. And they're going
to do it, and they hate the process. Because it's not immediate. I have students
in the conservation lab who take classes in the art department. And they're
interested in the book printing, which is now not as it was when Walter. Less
required to do a lot of projects in letterpress. It's a little more free, which
is good, because you still want them to learn book structures, sewings. And
01:03:00incorporated text however you want. So some people do handwriting, which is also
very beautiful. And different things. But it is taught, and I think everybody
has access to, I mean, they have to do something, one of the projects, where
they include a line or a poem or a, in letterpress. So it's done. But in my time
was intensely letterpress. And that, for me, was actually what I thought needed
to be. You needed to be patient. You needed to be very demanding with yourself.
And you know, how to choose. I loved to be able to choose different typefaces,
the ones that were available. And Walter's shop was impeccable. He made
01:04:00everybody distribute type. So it was also, you need to have a shop where you go
in and you're going to be productive. Because if you don't find the letters in
the place where that letter is going to be, or you find the letter but from
another typeface, you might lose your patience and you get frustrated easily.
And maybe I didn't have those frustrations. Or if I did, it was because the
letter was a little broken. So it was, there is that part of letterpress
printing. It is slow, it could be tedious because you need to set it, you need
to proof it, you need to change it. And even the spaces between letters,
sometimes you use paper. There are many different spacing material that comes
01:05:00with a case. But even the thinnest one sometimes is not, sometimes it's too
thick, and you just want to add a paper space. So you need all that when you
really want to make the space right. Other people are not interested in that,
and it's perfectly fine. But I think maybe because that's what I remember being
for me, that wonderful experience when I first looked at a book. And probably
one of those books was by Walter. There was another mentor. Of course, Walter
was my teacher, but he wasn't around all the time, because he couldn't be. But
01:06:00there was a classmate that became as much of a mentor as Walter was to me. And
her name is Kathy Kuehn.
SL: Oh, yes. Mm hmm.
01:06:20
MG: And I also admire her work tremendously. She has one of the most impeccable
printing skills, she made the most beautiful paper. I actually learned paper
from Walter, but Kathy was always around. And she was very generous with her
time. So if I was having any problems, I'd talk to her. And she said, oh I will
stop by. So she was super helpful. And there was somebody else. Bonnie
Stahlecker. She was advanced. When I started, she was much ahead of my class.
01:07:00And she was the one that told me a lot of, no adhesive bindings. Because that
wasn't part of the curriculum.
SL: So when did you learn that from her?
MG: Oh, at the same time I was developing my work. Especially when I started
doing the fine press. Using more and more text in the books, less
three-dimensional. I still, even when I was learning those skills, those binding
skills from Bonnie, I just wanted to learn different kinds of bindings. And
sometimes I used them in, not that I, I incorporated all of them in my work, but
01:08:00I also took a class from Jim Dast, because he was the conservator for many years
at the university. And he was offered a bookbinding class where we could get
credit from taking his class. It was just one credit. And we paid separately.
Not part of our tuition. And he did one-semester class where we met once a week.
And he became another mentor to me. We did more traditional bookbinding. And I
also learned tremendously from him. Because it's very important to know
traditional bookbinding before you start experimenting with other types of
01:09:00bindings. I think the codecs is very important to know. And that was one of my
attractions when I, I always wanted to work in that lab. Because I knew he hired
students. Kathy Kuehn worked for him many years. And another person that, yeah,
that was very influential to me was Jim.
SL: And did you eventually work with him in the conservation lab?
1:09:35
MG: Yes. He finally moved to a bigger facility. So he had got more money to hire
people. Because apparently the money was spent making the facility bigger. He
was a conservator of that library, which is a large library. And he had a corner
of space, very small. And I think many people worked for him that were in our
01:10:00department. They got, it's a great job to have when you're interested in books.
Because you learn about paper. You learn about, you have to take sometimes a
book apart. The book that you're repairing. And when you're repairing the book,
you have to clean the spine, and you can see the different bindings that were
done, and how copies were attached. So I learn a lot from Jim Dast. And then
when I finally was able to work in, I had already finished my MFA. And in order
to continue being able to work as a, you know, a student in the university, I
01:11:00had to be a student. So I was able to take one class as a special student again.
And I took papermaking. Because having accessibility to paper, and papermaking
became a big, big technique in my life. I all along was planning to return to
Colombia. And maybe that made our relationship even better. Because we were
enjoying our relationship very much without any pressures. And I was going to
set up a paper mill. That was my big plan. Because I don't think book arts was
known in Colombia. But if I started making paper and teaching some workshops in
01:12:00book structure and bookbinding, that was my way of maybe continuing doing my
personal work. I don't see, I frankly, it's not a scene in Colombia, book arts,
in the way it is here, it is in Europe. Where you actually can sell books to a
collection. But papermaking, I thought I could really do something with it. So,
yeah. Papermaking was very, very important to me. And that's why I wanted to
become a very good papermaker. Which takes time.
01:12:54
SL: So was that a second class in papermaking that you took after you graduated?
Or did you take your first class in papermaking?
MG: No. No. I took my first class. And you always, just by doing it, you get to
01:13:00be good. You take a class, you learn how to see that the right amount of beating
is, the pulp is right for the paper. You learn all the technical aspects of the
book. And then you incorporate, I'd like to incorporate painting on my, but just
so it is almost not when I did painting on my own paper with pulp, there was no
different thickness. It was just there. So I learned different things with
papermaking. At the time, I never dyed my paper. Which you could learn. I wanted
my paper to be natural colors. So when I went looking for material to make the
paper, I usually went to Goodwill, because you want fabrics that have been
01:14:00washed a lot, that are somewhat old. And that was the place where I went looking
for secondhand, corduroy, linen, cotton. And if I was looking for any specific
color of paper, I tried to find those materials that had that color. You
couldn't really have it as the way you envision it. But it was close enough.
SL: Sure.
1:14:36
MG: And then, when I started making my editions larger, and I was already of
course very aware that there were beautiful handmade paper for sale, and
especially Japanese papers are thinner. My papers were a little thicker. And you
want sometimes different quality in the paper. So I started buying handmade
01:15:00paper. But I remember enjoying making, I haven't made paper in a long time. In a
long time. But it was magic. It was just probably as magic as when you do your
first, you pull out your first print in the letterpress. You know, you just set
all this type, do all these things as I, you put your paper through. And there
is, you know, beautiful type printed on paper. But yeah, I was fortunate that
there were so many things coming together at the same time. And there were so
many talented people around me. A lot of talent at the time. A lot of interest
in letterpress. And people were, we were trading books. It was just delightful
01:16:00to be able to be, be able to do that with your colleagues. And many of them went
and did very well in the different parts where they settled. And I stayed here
because then my relationship became very important to me. I decided to stay. My
work was being well received. And talking about these Eshleman translator. I was
already finished with school and I was working here in my studio and I got a
telephone call from him. And the fact was that a dealer came through town, a
01:17:00major dealer, that was based in Minnesota, Steve Clay. And he dealt primarily,
poetry and artist books. He had a beautiful store in Minnesota. And finally went
and visited. And he asked Walter if he had any talented student that he was
willing to look at the work. And Walter said he should look into Marta's work.
And at the time, I was working at the Silver Buckle Press under-Kathy ran the
Silver Buckle Press for many years. But I was never able to work with Kathy. I
was still in school. And it wasn't as easy for foreign students to get jobs,
like it is now. Now, as long as you're a student, you can get a job. So I could
01:18:00never, Walter wanted me to be his lab assistant. I could never get a job. You
had to be, you know, a citizen. So you could be from out of state, but a
citizen. A lot of people came already with TA jobs, teaching assistant jobs,
which is what gives you experience when you want to go and teach somewhere else.
And that was actually not accessible to me.
SL: Okay. How did you feel about that?
1:18:42
MG: Well, it was frustrating. Because I wasn't sure I wanted to teach,
necessarily, but I wanted to be able to have a job. And it wasn't till I, well,
for some reason I not only was able to keep my, what happened? Because I think
01:19:00that I wasn't get married when I was working for-oh, maybe I was. Because only
because I was a resident, but I still needed to be a student to be able to get a
student status. I worked in the conservation lab. The conservation lab never
hired anybody as long as they were not, you needed to be a student. It's the
same with me. My help is all students. Once they graduate, even if they want to
stay, I couldn't hire them. There is no money to hire outside people. So maybe
01:20:00I, that's maybe one of the reasons I started working in, I was working in the
Silver Buckle Press under Barbara Tetenbaum. And then I was able to later, much
later, this is when I stop working at the Silver Buckle Press, Jim had a job for
me. But Jim already knew my work. Because actually when I had my MFA, he was
very helpful. He was, you know, giving me ideas in how to present a book. He did
some book stands for me. He loved, I think he liked my work. And I took that
class for longer than I should have, because I love working in this traditional
way as well. And I thought that once you take one class, you need another class
because you only do one sample for the different kinds of traditional
01:21:00bookbinding. So I wanted to repeat it and I took another class and I got to know
him a little better. So yeah, it was very difficult to be able to make any
money. I was, oh, I have to say that I once got a job as a TA, but in the
Spanish department. I was still working on my MFA. And my MFA, actually I
graduated later than expected, because I practically took a year off to be a TA,
and I was doing my art history classes. Not studio classes. The studio classes
were too demanding. So I took my requirements in art history. And I was a TA.
01:22:00And I was able to make not just a little money, but a lot of money. Significant
for me at the time, because my parents were helping me. But then when I got the
TA in Spanish, and only because they needed actually people. They accepted too
many freshmans that wanted to be, you know, it's a requirement. So even though
they had their own graduate students that all come with assistance, I was
invited to, I mean, I applied. Colombian Spanish is considered the best Spanish
outside of Spain. I never taught Spanish. And I still got the job. And I loved
it. I just loved teaching it. I learned a lot. I took a class in the Spanish
department that was considered kind of my outside class and work. You needed to
01:23:00take a class outside the art department. And that was considered, that was
accepted. And I learned a lot of techniques to teach. And I had a, oh, it was a
lot of work, because you teach every single day. But it was fun. So that time I
made some money, which was very important to me.
1:23:25 But then what happened was that this dealer, going back to that, liked
my work. And he said, "How many copies do you have?" I said, "I probably have 20
copies." He said, "I would love to represent you. Is it okay if you give me this
book?" And it was the book with Cesar Vallejo's poetry and Mr. Eshleman's
translations. But at the time, I thought nothing of it. Because I completely -I
01:24:00should have been more aware of it even though, I mean, if you're a printer, you
know, you should be aware that you cannot just put out somebody's translation.
But, since I gave him credit, I thought well, I'm doing the right thing. It's
not like I'm just using the translation. So I get a call from Mr. Eshleman. And
Ivan was away. And I was here in the house. And he said, "Well, I think you have
done some books of Cesar Vallejo's poetry." I said, "Oh, yeah." And he said,
"And also with my translations." I said, "Oh. But you know, they were a class
project. I was never intended it to be Because he immediately said, "And you're
making some money with my work." And I said, "Oh, I'm sorry. But frankly when I
01:25:00did it, there was no intention in selling my work." He had also told me that who
was selling it, and that's how he found out. Because he himself had a
bibliographer that she found out all the work that was done, where his work was published.
SL: Sure.
1:25:33
MG: So I said, "I'm really very sorry, but what can I do?" He said, "Well, I can
sue you, you know." I said, "But frankly, there were only 20 copies. And I don't
think, I don't know how many have been sold. They really make no money
significant. But if you want a copy or a number of copies." He said, "I want 10
percent of the copies you made." I didn't even know, I'm thinking wow, do I have
01:26:00any copies to send this man? Well, I don't, I mean, I have given this dealer a
few copies. But I also, I had then a little book, like a miniature book. And
that was all in English. Using only one poem. And I used it like, I don't know
if you're familiar with concrete poetry, which is very playful. And Cesar
Vallejo's poetry was very good for that reason. You could really make kind of
playful positions of the word, and make just that as the visuals in your book.
01:27:00He said, "But you did more than one book." I said, "Oh, I had even forgotten
about that." I said, "Oh, that's right, that's right, there was this other
little book. It's a miniature book. And also very few copies." He said, "Well, I
would like copies of that." So I said, I mean, it's good, because if he sues me.
I said, "Yeah, I will send you. I'm so sorry." He said, "Oh, who's your
professor? He should talk about those things in class." And probably he did, you
know? (SL laughs) That's what I think. I don't think, maybe he did. But since I
was never planning to make any money with my work in class, you know. And also
because I was encouraged to have some English, I found a translation. So then,
that was it. I sent him some copies. He probably, I hope he thought I was-but he
01:28:00said, "You're making money out of my work." I said, "No, I'm not. I'm really
not." But of course it's your work, yeah, I understand that. So that was fixed
with that. And then, his bibliographer calls me. And he said, "Marta, I
understand that you made two editions. One in handmade paper and the other one
in regular paper." I said, "Yeah, I guess I did, because the handmade paper
sells a little more expensive, and it's boxed. And the other one, you know, is
just regular paper." So she said, "You know what, as a bibliographer of Eshleman
I'd like to have every, and we only had the handmade paper copies. So the
authors are willing to buy them from you." So she bought them.
01:29:00
SL: Oh, good.
01:29:04
MG: So I thought oh, she's a bibliographer. She's buying them. So maybe
everything got fixed with him. I think he probably, when he got the books he
said oh my God, look, it's just one poem. It was just one poem. So then I
decided to do something else with his poetry, with Vallejo's poetry, not with
Eshleman's. And Ivan translated it. And he did a beautiful translation. Poetry
is very difficult to translate. And I was surprised how much I liked, yeah, I
liked Ivan's translation more. Because we worked it out. We were talking about,
Ivan speaks very good in Spanish. Because I only wanted to speak Spanish at the
beginning of our relationship. And he's very good at languages. He speaks a
01:30:00number of languages. And you know, he studies language. Loves the grammar. And
he really wanted to do that translation. And yeah, we were very pleased with
that translation. So I was able to use another poem for another broadside. That
was really a broadside. I was very, very happy with it. Yeah, it was a time when
I thought Madison, and maybe because Walter was in the intersession for the
media, and of course computers were not competing at the time, as they are now.
01:31:00And people really, I can see it. You know, immediacy of the results, you can
really do so much. Photoshop. I mean, all the different things that you can do,
just to try different things on a page. Which is, yeah, I think it is-but I
still think that what letterpress does cannot be ever-I think what computers do
now is different. It's the opposite. The text is a little, a relief. You know,
it's a relief. You can actually touch it. But that's imbibing to the paper. I
don't think it does. And you can easily, I did a lot of use of computer as a
tool also to have an image that I, image that I could send. To have a plate
01:32:00made. To do letterpress.
SL: Sure.
01:32:16
MG: But yeah, I can see also why people is very attracted to computers. Because
they got better and better. Before, I don't know if you remember, computers
couldn't space anything. I mean, they would have a specific rectangular shape,
the space between words was so awful. Because that's what they did to justify it
left and right. And now computers you can manipulate the spacing between letters
very well. And it's probably very time-consuming. I think it is. Unless they
01:33:00have gotten even better. I don't do computer work. But probably that was
somewhat corrected. And even letterpress, letterpress has a lot of limitations
in the sense that you need to, like when there is an uppercase, and the
uppercase in the middle letter has some space around. And then you make word,
the next letter is going to appear to fall apart from the uppercase. So you need
to cut the letter, the base of the letter. So you need to do a lot of things,
also. But it's doable in that sense, too. I think it was harder to do it with
01:34:00the computer trying to fit in good spacing between not just letters, but words.
But I probably-do you do a lot of computer work?
SL: I've worked with designers and they are able to manipulate spaces in between
letters. So I think it has become much better. Well, you've talked quite a bit.
I don't know if you want to end now or if you want to maybe tackle one more and
talk about kind of how your time at the UW as a student impacted your career as
a book artist.
01:34:47
MG: Very much I think that because of the people that were around me. And
because of the support I got when I graduated. Oh, no, see, that's what
01:35:00happened. When I graduated, when you're a graduate student, you can apply for a,
what's it called, and you actually, it's kind of a practicum. You're going to
say in the country for a year to get more experience.
SL: Okay. Like a fellowship?
MG: No, it's not a fellowship. Although it's called a, a lot of the students do
it. And now it's extended to undergraduates. So you change your visa. You're no
longer a student visa. You have another visa that is allowing you to get
experience. But for that, you have to have a job. And a job preferably in the
field. But I think it's not exclusively. You can be a little off the field. But
01:36:00then I was able to get a job with Walter. So he, I was hired by him. And made
paper for his, one of his projects, a couple of his projects, or one project.
And then I did, also became a binder, book binder for him. And I bound two
editions. Fantastic, I can never pronounce that. Gabber... It's a book that he
did it periodically with-
SL: Oh, Jabberwocky?
MG: Hmm?
SL: Was it the Jabberwocky stuff?
01:36:51
MG: No. With the-
SL: Oh, Gabberjabbs.
MG: Yeah.
SL: Gabberjabbs.
MG: Yeah. That. Where he writes, you know, he keeps a journal. I don't know if
01:37:00he still does. He has issues with his eyes. So that was a book. That was a
beautiful book to do the binding for. And another one called Flora. That one was
poems. So I was able to also, you know, work for somebody that inspired my work
tremendously. And had such a, he was an inspiration to me. I think his
creativity was just tremendous. And I'm having a job, having this job was very
good for my, especially the papermaking, the bookbinding. And then Jim Dast, you
01:38:00know, also conservator, was supportive of my work. In general, I felt very
appreciated. So I guess that, I just only wish I would have been able to make
some money when I was a graduate student because very expensive for me, it was.
But there was not that possibility at the time, except when I was able to get
that TAship. And, yeah. So it was, I only, I mean, the art department was very
male-oriented. I didn't think in my time there, maybe Laura Beth Clark, there
01:39:00was another person that taught color theory. And then she was there when I first
came. But she retired. And then, yeah. It was, I was hired to teach as a, also,
when I finished, Phil Harrington was taking a sabbatical. So there was, and I
applied for it. It wasn't like I was invited to teach. But I applied for it. And
I was able to teach typography and graphic design to basic, you know. As a requirement.
SL: When was that? When was that?
01:39:55
MG: That was in, when was that? Maybe 1991. Maybe 1991. Yeah.
01:40:00
SL: So I just wondered if you could clarify the timeline a little bit. You said
that you worked for Silver Buckle Press, you worked with Jim Dast, and you
worked with Walter Hamady. Do you remember like what order everything happened in?
MG: Well, Silver Buckle Press was first. And then I got the TA.
SL: Teaching Spanish?
MG: No, no. The Spanish was when I was in graduate school.
SL: Okay. Got it.
MG: So I worked at the Silver Buckle first. And then I got the job in the art
department as a year appointment.
SL: Okay. And that's when you taught typography?
MG: That's when I taught graphic design. But I actually was working for Walter
01:41:00before that, because I finished in '87. And '88 was the year that I had, it's
called practical training. Practical training. That's how it was called then.
I'm not sure if it still is called like that. But you had the right to stay in
the country for a year. So that was the whole year of 1988. And then I worked at
the Silver Buckle Press. And I'm not so sure if that overlapped also with
Walter. Because probably did, because since I was in practical training, I had
the possibility to work, to get a job. And because I had graduated and that was
01:42:00expected to me, to have a job. And then in 1991, Phil Harrington took a
sabbatical and I was teaching. But also I taught the same year at Clark College,
which is in Dubuque.
SL: Oh, wow. So did you travel there-
01:42:27
MG: Yes. I actually went and came back the same day. So I taught letterpress
printing. And the chairman of the department had been my classmate. She was
getting an MFA as well. And it was very busy, but very interesting to me both.
The class in, the class that I was teaching at the university here had to do
01:43:00with just typography. We did use, we didn't use much equipment. The students had
to work with the letters in many different ways. And that was kind of fun. That
was a little bit like what I did when I was in my own, as a graphic designer.
And I even had a graduate student in that class. But he was from Taiwan. So I
guess he had to do what I did when I came, level up and take some requirements.
Yeah, that was a good year for me. I had a lot of teaching experience that I'd
never had as a graduate student in the art department. So the trip to Dubuque
01:44:00didn't seem, it was the first time I was driving on the road by myself. But it
all worked out well. I very much liked the group that I had in Dubuque, and it
was letterpress, which I loved doing. So, yeah. Later on, I got the job with Jim
Dast. And that was a part time job, which was very good. And I was working part
time in my studio here, being very, as productive as I could. And everything
seemed to be working really well. And he decided to retire. And I was asked to
01:45:00fill in while they found, looked for a conservator. And it was not a good
decision to say yes, because then they didn't want to let me go part time. I
enjoyed the job tremendously because, you know, there are aspects that are very
fulfilling. But in many ways, it really interfered with my studio work. And it's
very rare that there is a lab run by one person. Very rare. Especially at a
01:46:00university library this large. Most labs are run, even in smaller libraries, by
two or three people.
SL: Sure.
MG: So you know, it's one of those things that is a lot of aspects of, you know,
I had the chance to teach and make the students love the craft of learning how.
For them, it's practically another class that is for free. We're paying them to
learn. Not a lot. (laughter) Book people don't make a lot of money. Yeah, it
could be more. But it's been better paying. They did some changes in the
payroll. And it's better, it's more what they should be paid. But that's what happened.
01:47:00
SL: Okay. Well I think, let's stop there for today. Thank you for your time.
01:47:10
End Track 1. End Interview Session 1.