Interview with Marta Gomez

UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1780 GOMEZ, MARTA

GOMEZ, MARTA

Interviewed: 2018 Interviewer: Sarah Lange Transcribed by: Teresa Bergen Length: 3 hours, 30 minutes

First Interview session (May 19, 2018): Digital File

SL: So today is May 19, 2018. I'm Sarah Lange with the oral history program at UW Madison. I'm talking with Marta Gomez, book artist, UW alum, and head of the book conservation laboratory at Memorial Library at her house in Madison. So Marta, you grew up in Colombia. Could you talk a little bit about what it was like there?

MG: I grew up in a big family. And there was a lot of interesting visual arts in my family. And applied arts in particular. Architecture, engineering and photography. And so just I grew up in going to Catholic schools where the emphasis is in making you a good wife, I guess. So I did a lot of sewing. I 00:01:00mean, it's a great education. Catholic schools have very good curriculums. But I did some art, but it wasn't a big emphasis in anything in particular. We learned how to do certain probably home economics in one of our classes. And in my vacation, Colombia doesn't have summer camps. So during vacation time, as I was a little older, I started taking some craft workshops and did some painting in wood, and did other things with fabrics. And I realized that I had a lot of pleasure working with my hands. I was never so good at the classes in the 00:02:00school, because you needed to know how to knit, to make a little outfit for babies or to do, you know, things for the woman. So that was not that interesting to me. But when I started taking these art workshops, like craft workshops, that's when I realized that I really enjoyed working with paint and brushes and tools to carve in the wood. And that was probably my beginning. And later on, my brother took up photography. He had a lab in the house. I started getting more interested in attending exhibitions. Then when I decided to, time came to go to the university, I was interested in going into the art, to the 00:03:00disappointment of my father, in particular. Because he was hoping I was going to be an architect or an engineer, which is another trait of my family. A lot of cousins are civil engineers, in particular. And art didn't seem like a big thing for him. My mom was very supportive. I went into art. I was accepted at a very good university, the National University of Colombia, which has a really good reputation in Colombia. It's difficult to get in. So I was very proud, and they were very proud that I was able to get in. My brother was already in that university doing architecture. And in the first year, I just took classes like 00:04:00everybody does, general classes. Drawing. And we had to decide in the second year what we wanted to do. And I'd been since very young very detail-oriented. And I did like always to have things specifically organized. So I, a lot of things didn't seem to have that as part of their, when I was taking these classes in ceramics, it was a little more loose, a little more messy. And when I started taking graphic design, I thought that that's what I was more ready to do. Because graphic design really demands a lot of different attention to a lot 00:05:00of detail in typography, page design. And in the program we were exposed to different kinds of graphic design. Corporate image, which has to do with logo, has to do with letters. And how to use that for the letterhead of the company, the business, the business cards. And I love all that. I love working with space and text. Then we did also books. And I started working with primarily books that had some didactic purpose, which they were more geared to children. So I 00:06:00work with alphabet book. I then took packaging design. And packaging design, you learn to work with paper, of course, making different folds in the paper to make the paper strong. It was not quite like origami. I never did origami. But we needed to do enclosures for things out of just maybe paper stock, a little thicker than regular paper. And then I realized that I could combine that with books. Because I liked the idea of books that were more three dimensional. So I did a few things. But in that at the time, the books that I did, I only designed 00:07:00them. And there were some where I had more, I was more involved in the book structure. But as far as printing, we didn't, we had to do it with, at the time there were no computers. And also we just used very mechanical kind of way of doing it. So I, and when I was doing logos, which I also enjoyed, and you needed to do a final thing. We actually design it and then give it to somebody that was technician to actually print it on the card. So we never, there was kind of a gap in between making things and the results of things. In the books, I had a 00:08:00little more control, a little more to do with the book. They were never editioned, because some of the books were kind of involved. They were just projects. So we were not expected to edition things. I also worked on poster design, on billboard design. And, when I finished my degree, I was fortunate enough that I got a job in graphic design more in the commercial aspect of it. So it was a large company and I was part of, it wasn't necessarily a huge office where I was. But for way too long, I was doing the same thing. It was pasting text on things that they, I didn't have too much space for creativity. I was told what to do, where to put it, how to line everything. And it's probably how 00:09:00this jobs start. You know, you need to do very repetitive work. And I lost my fascination for that kind of work. And I started looking into other possibilities. And I had some friends that had taken time to go abroad and get a little, you know, more exposure to the world. And I decided to probably try that. But my first concern was the language. So I decided on coming to the United States. Making a decision that seemed very good at the time. And it didn't really turn out to be the place for me. I grew up in a big city, Bogota, 00:10:00the capital. And I was exposed to a lot of cultural activities, you know, like big cities always offer. And I choose Nebraska, Omaha, because I thought that nobody that spoke Spanish was going to be there.

SL: Oh, okay.

00:10:30

MG: Meaning everybody went to Miami, to New York, to California, to Texas. Those were the destinations. And they never really learned much English. So I was very conscious about that and I looked through different possibilities that offered these programs, English as a second language, and I choose Omaha. And in many ways, was a good experience to be somewhere else. But the city didn't provide 00:11:00what was fulfilling to me. And I was learning some English, of course. But most of the people that were in my classes were at the same level. So the English really never was-and the fact that I also felt very limited to explore the city. I didn't have a car. And you know, I was also in classes and we were taken to places. We were treated more like, I felt treated more like a kid because we were trying to express ourselves. And when you are learning a language, that's sometimes how it comes out a little. And I decided that, you know, it was not the place I should have gone, but I didn't have any other plan. So I made, well 00:12:00I lived with a family, and that was very nice. I met nice people. It wasn't bad. But it was kind of in the middle of nowhere, for me, that place.

SL: And can you tell us like about what time this was? Was it in the early '80s?

12:32

MG: That was in the early '80s. And I'm sure things have changed. Like everywhere else, it's becoming a little more lively, these places. In fact, Omaha has a very good, I don't know if they still do, but there was a printing, letterpress printing facility within the university. I don't think it was in the time I was, in the time I wasn't exposed to these, so I wasn't looking for these 00:13:00things. The university where the program was housed, it was housed there, but it didn't really belong to the university. But we were able to use some of the facility. So the museum wasn't very exciting, what they have. So things were very, to me things were very slow. And I was in contact with my friends back in Colombia. And they were all doing really interesting things. And I felt very homesick in many ways. I felt that my experience was okay. And I was fortunate to have it, but I thought it was going to be just time for me to move on. And I met two people there, two sisters from Bolivia. They were in the program. And one of them was coming to Madison. She had a, she was going to be in radiology 00:14:00as a technician. So it was only a two-year program. So we kept in touch when I was still in Omaha. And she said, "Maybe you want to come to this city. It's lively, a lot of things going on. It's beautifully located, has a great university." And she was very happy in the program. And she of course wrote to me these, soon after she left, because we were feeling a little out of sorts in Omaha. And she knew that I was really probably just getting myself alone out of Omaha. And with destination back to Colombia. But then she said "Why don't you come here and stop and stay here for some time?" And I stopped in my way, 00:15:00really. I took a bus and never had taken a ride that long. Actually, Omaha was my very first experience alone away from my family. And my family is very, families in Colombia, very close. And mine is not different. I'm the youngest in my family. So it was, I was, you know, very independent, even when I was in Colombia, as independent as we can be in a big family. And maybe for that reason, my mom was so supportive of letting me go. Because she knew I was, I needed that. But I was also feeling when I was here that that independency that I had, I couldn't really exercise it here because I had limitations. I needed a 00:16:00little more, little more of the language. I was in a place that wasn't offering many things. So I decided well, maybe this is not for me. Maybe I'm going back. And I stop here in Madison. And it was lovely. It was probably April into May, I think. And she had already made some friends. An interesting group of people, and they were all talking about how wonderful the university was. And that it has a very strong art department. Especially printmaking was top of, I think it still is considered pretty strong. But at the time, it was, everybody was talking about it. And I thought maybe I would give it a try. I applied. And I 00:17:00was accepted. There was a process, of course. Because I didn't have my portfolio from Colombia here. I had to do a portfolio when I graduated there. And that probably alone was not going to help me to get into the program here. So I was accepted as a special student. And that's how we started taking some courses that I needed as requirements that I didn't have when my transcript was sent. And one of the courses was in typography. Another one was in serigraphy. As I said, we didn't do a lot of technical, we didn't have access to a shop where 00:18:00they did serigraphy, and it was very needed. So especially in graphic design, posters and that, we actually only had the concept of the poster and gave it to somebody else to do it. So here having the chance to learn all that, and because it was a requirement, I took these classes. And my first class in typography was with Phil Hamilton. And Phil Hamilton was more into graphic design. And was a little, because I didn't really want, I didn't want to go into graphic design again, but I thought it probably is going to be different here. It will be advanced in many ways, if that was my college. So I took typography with Phil. And that was my first exposure to letterpress printing. And it was second nature 00:19:00to me, even though I'd never done it, because I loved the attention to detail. It's very meticulous kind of craft. Requires patience. And I feel I had all those skills, I just needed to explore more. And I started doing typography in a different, I think we had to do different aspects of like a broadside. We even did also a business card, a letterhead panel in this new technique that it was so new to me. And I realized that my work was somewhat unusual. The way I 00:20:00approached the book, especially when we had to design a book, I had these skills because I always loved working with three-dimensional things. And I think it came from my classes in packaging design. And knowing how to fold paper to make interesting structures. So I did a book that actually called the attention of my professor at the time. And he was very encouraging to pursue that. I did a book that was about vowels. And it was, the content was a poem by Rimbaud. And it was 00:21:00in a hexagon shape. The stanzas, every one of the pages that was attached to the side of the hexagon opened up. And the poem was printed in letterpress, and the following page was the letter that the poem was written for, the vowel. So it became very dynamic. That structure, it's hard to explain the structure. But when the hexagon is completely open, it opens, it looks like a flower, you see all the stanzas. And if you turn it over, you just see all the designs of the 00:22:00letters. So I used a letter in wood type and I made designs using just that particular vowel. So it became also very abstract, because I love designing with just one letter, and just play with it and making, sometimes that letter is perfectly identified. And sometimes it becomes an abstract design. So I love working, like my first time also with wood type. And I had the background of working with type at that level, but not doing it myself, the printing. So that was kind of for me a big discovery where I was able to do everything on my own. 00:23:00But you know, I was taking other classes, and I was trying to catch up with the requirements to present my portfolio. And I was accepted in the MFA program after, I think it was a semester and a summer.

SL: Sure.

00:23:31

MG: And, when I finally entered into the MFA program, I wanted to work with Walter Hamady, because he had a different approach to the book. He was more into fine print, what it's called. Book arts. And he was on a sabbatical. So I took another class with Phil. And Phil is very enthusiastic, so he was always very 00:24:00encouraging. And I took photography and I kept doing some serigraphy with Dean Meeker. And then it came this question about me. It was a new, I was confronted with a new, by my professors, with a kind of a new identity of my ethnicity. That I was never aware of. Because in Colombia, I grew up in a very urban environment. I was also, you know, middle class, very solid middle class. So I went to a good university. At the university we did a curriculum in art, was 00:25:00with a lot of exposure to European art, American art. But my professors were wondering why I was in, you know, like they wanted me to project some tribal persona.

SL: Oh really.

00:25:22

MG: And then I realized that I did have, I do have very strong Indian features. But I wasn't aware of it myself because Colombia population is also very mixed, you know. Indian and Spanish came together. And that's a big part of the population. And of course there are many other types, like any other culture has very different types. People as fair as you, blond, blue eyes in certain regions. But I just happened to have also very strong Indian features. And I'm 00:26:00now, I mean, not now, but I recognized that then. And I just, people kept asking me that for instance is one of my pieces, and I do work with very abstract forms when I do flat work. And even when I do my work in books, I like geometric shapes and playing with that. And I then started doing things that turned out to be interesting. Very interesting to me. But the intention was to show them yes, well I can investigate my ancestors. So I did a major book with pre-Colombian 00:27:00objects that were from peoples from Colombia, exclusively. Because there's pre-Columbian in Mexico, pre-Columbian in Peru, pre-Columbian in many parts of South America. So I investigated. I did the research and I was very grateful that I didn't just do it with the intention of, you know, giving them the pleasure of seeing something tribal. But I didn't realize how fantastic this design sensibility. And not just, very, very sophisticated design, the 00:28:00pre-Columbian cultures in my country, how they approached these. I did a book on rodillos, which are rollers made from ceramic, stone. And they carved. And when they are rotated on a flat surface, they create these designs. A pattern. And that was used to print their face. And they prepared their own inks in order to do that. And then they incorporated those designs also in fabrics and clothing. 00:29:00And I did one, I realize, there was one that was a clenched fist. And when it rolled over the surface, printed an open hand.

SL: Interesting.

00:29:25

MG: And I was completely overwhelmed by that sophistication in that period. And a lot of the patterns, I actually went to Colombia, talked to some people that own these rollers. Took pictures. I also found in some books the designs that they display as they were rolled on the fabrics. And the designs are as 00:30:00contemporary as any design. And they just beautiful designs. Very geometric. And I loved it. I guess in Colombia, we, of course we know where we're coming from. But we are never encouraged to appropriate those things to be part of our way of expressing our creativity. Because that's not, you know, those were done then. And I think I wanted to do this book just as a research book. And I did it as artistically as I could to be able to present it as a, they were plates, practically, that they could have been framed if they wanted to, with the 00:31:00roller, and printed in serigraphy. And then what I thought the roller would look when rolled over and on cloth. And I printed that on a fabric. Just also to show some of the uses of those rollers were for that purpose. But I also found it printed on faces and that's very striking, when you see I ton a face, the same patterns. So I did a series of, I did another couple of books where one has to do more with African imagery. They're three-dimensional. They are based on an accordion structure. And that was, these books were very visual, primarily visual. I incorporated a little bit of text that was letterpress printed. And I always was looking at books that were beautifully, a lot of, not a lot of text. See what I did with these texts that were primarily visual was, for me, the most 00:32:00important part was the visual aspect, the imagery, that was treated very three-dimensionally. And I did the introduction to give an idea of the book. But I wanted to be able to work with more text. And when I finally was able to work 00:33:00with Walter Hamady, we took our first trip to the rare book collection to look at artist books. And that was a revelation for me when I saw these just beautiful books that were very much like the codexs, just turn the pages. And some of the books only had text printed, with just a very, a design or just a change of color in the line. Just one word was printed in a different color. And the way the type was printed into this beautiful handmade paper was very, to me, 00:34:00was just beautiful. There was a beauty in it that was hard to explain because now that was actually very magical. There was no, no, nothing different from the way you open other books, regular books. But it was how the words were just printed in this page, and how the titles were done. And how settled and quiet, and at the same time, sensual, this media was. So I just wanted to do some more 00:35:00text but I don't write I don't keep a journal. I don't write poetry. And I was looking for good text. And that I knew, what a good text was. But also, because of the language, and I was able to express myself. I was able to, you know, read English poetry. Or poetry in English. But I started working with a poet, did a book, well, maybe that wasn't the first one. But I did a book with a Spanish poet. And using primarily the text. Oh, I was also already making paper. And that was another aspect of, another class that I loved, just how magical it was 00:36:00to do, to make paper. And I was making paper for printing. So it was very, it requires to have a different skill that when you use it as a, end of a piece, like when people do different pulp on the paper, collage, you're more free to do different things on the paper, I wanted the paper to be printed on. And I also love that, being able to get as, you know, good every time and make more paper. And it requires a lot of trying, a lot of trying, because of the strength that 00:37:00you need to lift the mold from the water and get an even, perfectly even, paper. So when I finally was able to get my paper to be good to print on, I use a little bit of pulp to design on every sheet. And then that paper I used it just to print these poems.

37:35

SL: Marta, do you remember who you took papermaking with?

MG: Yes. With Walter.

SL: You did. Okay.

MG: Walter was a big influence in my work. He was an extraordinary teacher. Difficult person as well. Very inspiring. His typography is exquisite. And also 00:38:00he was a very good papermaker. And yes, I did papermaking with him, primarily. And then I was told that maybe I should have some English, also, to go along with my books, because then it limited the accessibility for people to enjoy the book.

SL: Because you were working with a Spanish poet?

MG: With Spanish poems. Spanish-

SL: Spanish language.

MG: The Spanish language. Right. And I thought it was interesting. Because sometimes these books, like songs, you don't need to understand the words for you to like the melody. And you think it is so beautiful and it really touches 00:39:00you. I knew a lot of songs that I never knew what the text said. It was just so many other things that were beautiful about it. And then I learned English. And then I listened to the same piece of music and I was able to understand. And in some ways it was as beautiful as I thought it was before I learned the language. So sometimes you don't need to understand everything. And I think that's also why when I went to the rare book collection to look at these books, I wasn't even reading the poems. I was just seeing the poems printed. How beautiful the effect was. So I thought yeah, maybe that's right, you know, I should do some books in English. And I worked with another poet. He's in the public domain. And 00:40:00his work is very, his words are very visual, too, the lines, playful. And also with a lot of feeling, like poetry is. And I did a broadside that I made it into a book because of the way it opened. Set it out in separate side because broadside is just one page, flat page, that has all the elements of the book. And that's how my structure was. But when I fold it, I was able to sew it. But I could definitely show it as a broadside. Then it was folded. And it was made into a small book. And it gave me the possibility to have the poem in Spanish 00:41:00and the poem in English.

41:08

SL: Do you remember which poet that was?

MG: Yeah. Vallejo. Peruvian. Cesar Vallejo. And I just happened to, that was a student project. (laughs) So I was not checking with copyright. And that's your field. I mean, you work in publishing.

SL: Sure.

MG: So I use a translation, but I gave credit in my colophon to the translator.

SL: Sure.

MG: I don't know if (laughs) And I thought it was enough. I wasn't going to do anything with the book. It was a class project.

SL: Sure. It wasn't for sale.

MG: It wasn't for sale. But I editioned it because Walter required an edition of 00:42:00the book. We always gave him a copy and we kept a copy. I felt oh, why not. Eshelman was the poet that translated Vallejo. He himself is a poet. And that was very well-received, that book. The fact that I made a broadside into practically a book. And the way that the translation was revealed as you unfolded the page was also played really well with the whole book. And then I'm, I wanted to move on and do maybe look for things that were not poetry. And at 00:43:00the time, I had met Ivan. I met Ivan at the beginning of my studies. And I thought-

SL: How did you meet?

43:13

MG: Oh. We just met at a social event. It was not university-related. It was just a gathering for a friend that was having a birthday. And he was Austrian. And his Italian friend was very good friend. Lived all in the same building he was in. So he invited us, my roommates, my Bolivian friends. And Ivan had just come back from Italy. I don't know for how long he was in Italy. And he had met 00:44:00a man, I think he taught them Italian to the, some American program in Florence. So he wanted to come to the States. And Ivan said well, I think that you could try to come and teach Italian in the Italian department for a year as a visiting professor. And you can, if you want, live in my house. And Ivan was divorced, had been divorced at the time for some years. So he was here. And he got invited to the party. So that's how we met. And he told me he was a professor in philosophy, which I found very interesting. Although I never really did, I did 00:45:00philosophy, but not very well. That was part of my curriculum in high school. And you know, he spoke Italian. I spoke Spanish. (laughs) And that worked really well, because I do understand Italian. It's very close. I mean, it's not, but I was very shy with him. Very shy. And that made it very comfortable. And he has always been fascinated with languages. So he knew a little Spanish, although his Italian was, and we, we just met at that party. And then later on, not immediately get relationship developed.

SL: Sure.

MG: And I told him that I was, actually, I was just been accepted in the program. I had been here, because I was getting my portfolio.

SL: So you were saying that you wanted to work with material other than poems.

46:16

MG: Other than poems. So I ask him if he, and I didn't know if he understood exactly what text, person that do these, work in this medium, needs. Because academics write a lot. Long things. So I said, "No, no. Do you have any text that is kind of interesting just not poetry, I'm not looking for poetry, but things that are printable in these type of books." But he had only seen the books that I did with not a lot of text. Ones that were very visual, 00:47:00three-dimensional. And he said, well, I was interested at one point, early in his life, in aphorisms. And he wrote counter-aphorisms. And he loves playing with words and you know, he had these interesting kind of take on the aphorism. With sometimes a completely, taking the aphorism apart because everybody likes to say, oh, what kills me makes me stronger. That sounds great, yeah. And his response was very, I loved it, because he says no, but whatever diminishes me kills me somehow. So people like to use aphorisms in a very loose way. They 00:48:00become cliches in many ways. So I thought, that's perfect! How many do you have? He had about, he had a number. And he also had a little poem that was very, just a few lines and punctuations. Line, one word, and punctuation. And I thought, that's perfect. I mean, that's really going to fit. And he was a little concerned how this was going to be illustrated. And he was hesitant. But I guess at the time he thought, well, it's in your hands. And he always left in the summer to go to Germany. He does German philosophy. And he liked to spend the 00:49:00summers, at the time, in Germany. And I took the text and I, that was a challenge for me, because I usually worked in things that were, I didn't want to illustrate it. A lot of those aphorisms cannot be illustrated. But I wanted to have a feeling for them. Like some atmospheric kind of imagery that set the tone for what does not kill me make me stronger. You know, like yeah, that needs to be also very also abstract, but creating a feeling. And my friend, my very good friend at the time, she's no longer in town, was a lithographer. And just a masterful lithographer. And I ask her if she wanted to collaborate in this 00:50:00project. And that is what is so beautiful about books. You could collaborate with people. And she looked at the text and she got very interested. And I like her imageries is so, when you look at her work, you really can feel it. It's sometimes very abstract. But it's very loaded with feeling. And I thought, this is why I asked her. And she did beautiful lithographs. Just beautiful lithographs.

50:55

SL: And what is your friend's name? What was your friend's name?

MG: Phyllis McGibbon. She's primarily a printmaker and lithographer. She did 00:51:00etching. She does many things. And books. And when she does books, they are just, she doesn't work in that media very much. But the ones she's done are very beautiful. Well thought out, the imagery is very complex. And so she collaborated with me. And it was printed from the stone. And it was on my handmade paper, which could be a challenge, because there are paper exclusively for lithograph. I mean, it's made for that. And I wanted to do it in my own paper. So we worked very intensely. And it was a very small edition. But I still 00:52:00wanted to edition because it was going to be more text set that I ever did before. And I thought it was a nice thing to edition. And we did a thirty, I think it was thirty copies. And when the book was done, I had designed the structure of the book and I had also designed how the book was going to be sewn and covered and how it was going to be bound. And when I then returned from Germany, I said, "Oh, the book is done. The book is finished." And he said, "I 00:53:00would love to see it." And when he saw the book, his first question is, "How many copies?" I said, "Oh, many. Thirty." Thirty? Is that actually, could be, for a book like that, at this moment I don't remember exactly how many lithographs, but a lot of lithographs. And he said, "Thirty? How is that possible? Only thirty?" I said, "Only? You have no idea what it takes to do these books!" (laughter) And so he was completely shocked. He loved it. He couldn't believe what has been done with the text. And he confessed that he was very hesitant about the graphics on, that were going with the text. And he 00:54:00suddenly got very enthusiastic about doing more projects. And I still had this typeset. I said, "Well there are only thirty copies with the lithographs. But if you want, we can print a book that is in commercial paper. Wouldn't have the lithos, but it would have the text. And it will be the same, exactly the same without the lithos." And there was a little poem in that. And that I was able to do it, the poem didn't have a lot of, that didn't have any litho. So I said, "And that one will be intact." The way I broke the lines it was nice because it needed the poses, it was a very meaningless poem. So we made another, probably 00:55:00another twenty copies of a second edition without the images. And he was able to give it away to his family. Because he wanted to share that book. And then when we decided to collaborate again with him, you know, working on the text and Phyllis working on the lithographs, because we both were very happy with the results, the three of us. So we made sixty. And that was a big number. Because you know, I like us to make boxes for my books. All my books are boxed. So that becomes a big project. But it's what I love about that media. It's very intimate. It's very, you are practically in contact with every step of that, you 00:56:00know, the papermaking, the setting of the type, the designing of the structure, and the execution of the printing. Which is, you know, as a student of Walter, I'm very, very focused on the impression in the paper, everything. And it is, it's something that when the viewer is interacting with the book, I want the viewer to experience the book intellectually and tactically. And in order to have that experience. Because I want them to have the experience I had the first 00:57:00time I looked at one of these books. You just touch the paper and it's in itself very sensual. I think that books is a multi-sensual experience. Books of some sort. Book arts comes in so many different ways now. And when I did book arts when I was working, when I did my MFA, computers were not available the way they are now. And the temptation of using so many different typefaces, people cannot resist. So the pages are crowded. And they could have a beauty in that crowdedness if you know how to use type well, that always looks-well, but when what you look for is simplicity and just the focus on the-well, I don't work 00:58:00with computers much. I use it as a tool to set up text that is shaped. And then I try to do it in the letterpress finally. Letterpress is very tricky because of the spacing.

SL: Sure.

00:58:32

MG: So sometimes you can do it in the computer and then shape it into a parallelogram, might not translate very well when you're setting it in letterpress. I don't like to use a lot of hyphens in paragraphs. That I learned from Walter. And he uses a lot of text in his books. And hardly ever, and his shapes, sometimes he has shapes. But he writes his own text. And you can do 00:59:00that, you can just change the wording and you might be able to fix it. So, yeah, I've seen some digital books that are called artist books that are nice. I've never really seen them in, I've seen them in websites. So I cannot say I have hold one and have the experience that I have when I hold the handmade letterpress-printed book.

SL: Sure. So when you were studying graphic design in Colombia, you weren't using computers then, were you?

MG: Oh, no, no. No. That's, no. Computers were not used. So we did a lot of paste-up. One of the books that I did in Colombia had to do with the alphabet. And each page, which letter of the alphabet, had lines that started with that 01:00:00letter. But those reflect, like for the L, the L I talked about lines. And I actually, we were encouraged to look in magazines and do cutouts. And then try to space them in the page. And that was also very challenging, but interesting. Because you'd look for different typefaces that went together. And you, that I brought, you know, I had to write something which every line started with the letter that I was trying to portray in that page. And I did it, I did a whole lot of it. And yeah, no, computers. And we didn't have in my school access to 01:01:00technology. That's why I never really did serigraphy. We just design on paper. And did letters, also, with tools that were appropriate, and stencils.

01:01:20

SL: I would think that that background really helped you when you started working in book arts.

MG: Oh, tremendously. That was probably also what, how my skills were shaped. And the fact that I liked that kind of work that was very detailed. And that was time-consuming. But art is. Ceramics. I mean, even painting, printmaking, 01:02:00everything is time-consuming. But there is something about working with letters that could be very, and that's why people now that grew up in the computer world, they love the letterpress when they are exposed to it. And they're going to do it, and they hate the process. Because it's not immediate. I have students in the conservation lab who take classes in the art department. And they're interested in the book printing, which is now not as it was when Walter. Less required to do a lot of projects in letterpress. It's a little more free, which is good, because you still want them to learn book structures, sewings. And 01:03:00incorporated text however you want. So some people do handwriting, which is also very beautiful. And different things. But it is taught, and I think everybody has access to, I mean, they have to do something, one of the projects, where they include a line or a poem or a, in letterpress. So it's done. But in my time was intensely letterpress. And that, for me, was actually what I thought needed to be. You needed to be patient. You needed to be very demanding with yourself. And you know, how to choose. I loved to be able to choose different typefaces, the ones that were available. And Walter's shop was impeccable. He made 01:04:00everybody distribute type. So it was also, you need to have a shop where you go in and you're going to be productive. Because if you don't find the letters in the place where that letter is going to be, or you find the letter but from another typeface, you might lose your patience and you get frustrated easily. And maybe I didn't have those frustrations. Or if I did, it was because the letter was a little broken. So it was, there is that part of letterpress printing. It is slow, it could be tedious because you need to set it, you need to proof it, you need to change it. And even the spaces between letters, sometimes you use paper. There are many different spacing material that comes 01:05:00with a case. But even the thinnest one sometimes is not, sometimes it's too thick, and you just want to add a paper space. So you need all that when you really want to make the space right. Other people are not interested in that, and it's perfectly fine. But I think maybe because that's what I remember being for me, that wonderful experience when I first looked at a book. And probably one of those books was by Walter. There was another mentor. Of course, Walter was my teacher, but he wasn't around all the time, because he couldn't be. But 01:06:00there was a classmate that became as much of a mentor as Walter was to me. And her name is Kathy Kuehn.

SL: Oh, yes. Mm hmm.

01:06:20

MG: And I also admire her work tremendously. She has one of the most impeccable printing skills, she made the most beautiful paper. I actually learned paper from Walter, but Kathy was always around. And she was very generous with her time. So if I was having any problems, I'd talk to her. And she said, oh I will stop by. So she was super helpful. And there was somebody else. Bonnie Stahlecker. She was advanced. When I started, she was much ahead of my class. 01:07:00And she was the one that told me a lot of, no adhesive bindings. Because that wasn't part of the curriculum.

SL: So when did you learn that from her?

MG: Oh, at the same time I was developing my work. Especially when I started doing the fine press. Using more and more text in the books, less three-dimensional. I still, even when I was learning those skills, those binding skills from Bonnie, I just wanted to learn different kinds of bindings. And sometimes I used them in, not that I, I incorporated all of them in my work, but 01:08:00I also took a class from Jim Dast, because he was the conservator for many years at the university. And he was offered a bookbinding class where we could get credit from taking his class. It was just one credit. And we paid separately. Not part of our tuition. And he did one-semester class where we met once a week. And he became another mentor to me. We did more traditional bookbinding. And I also learned tremendously from him. Because it's very important to know traditional bookbinding before you start experimenting with other types of 01:09:00bindings. I think the codecs is very important to know. And that was one of my attractions when I, I always wanted to work in that lab. Because I knew he hired students. Kathy Kuehn worked for him many years. And another person that, yeah, that was very influential to me was Jim.

SL: And did you eventually work with him in the conservation lab?

1:09:35

MG: Yes. He finally moved to a bigger facility. So he had got more money to hire people. Because apparently the money was spent making the facility bigger. He was a conservator of that library, which is a large library. And he had a corner of space, very small. And I think many people worked for him that were in our 01:10:00department. They got, it's a great job to have when you're interested in books. Because you learn about paper. You learn about, you have to take sometimes a book apart. The book that you're repairing. And when you're repairing the book, you have to clean the spine, and you can see the different bindings that were done, and how copies were attached. So I learn a lot from Jim Dast. And then when I finally was able to work in, I had already finished my MFA. And in order to continue being able to work as a, you know, a student in the university, I 01:11:00had to be a student. So I was able to take one class as a special student again. And I took papermaking. Because having accessibility to paper, and papermaking became a big, big technique in my life. I all along was planning to return to Colombia. And maybe that made our relationship even better. Because we were enjoying our relationship very much without any pressures. And I was going to set up a paper mill. That was my big plan. Because I don't think book arts was known in Colombia. But if I started making paper and teaching some workshops in 01:12:00book structure and bookbinding, that was my way of maybe continuing doing my personal work. I don't see, I frankly, it's not a scene in Colombia, book arts, in the way it is here, it is in Europe. Where you actually can sell books to a collection. But papermaking, I thought I could really do something with it. So, yeah. Papermaking was very, very important to me. And that's why I wanted to become a very good papermaker. Which takes time.

01:12:54

SL: So was that a second class in papermaking that you took after you graduated? Or did you take your first class in papermaking?

MG: No. No. I took my first class. And you always, just by doing it, you get to 01:13:00be good. You take a class, you learn how to see that the right amount of beating is, the pulp is right for the paper. You learn all the technical aspects of the book. And then you incorporate, I'd like to incorporate painting on my, but just so it is almost not when I did painting on my own paper with pulp, there was no different thickness. It was just there. So I learned different things with papermaking. At the time, I never dyed my paper. Which you could learn. I wanted my paper to be natural colors. So when I went looking for material to make the paper, I usually went to Goodwill, because you want fabrics that have been 01:14:00washed a lot, that are somewhat old. And that was the place where I went looking for secondhand, corduroy, linen, cotton. And if I was looking for any specific color of paper, I tried to find those materials that had that color. You couldn't really have it as the way you envision it. But it was close enough.

SL: Sure.

1:14:36

MG: And then, when I started making my editions larger, and I was already of course very aware that there were beautiful handmade paper for sale, and especially Japanese papers are thinner. My papers were a little thicker. And you want sometimes different quality in the paper. So I started buying handmade 01:15:00paper. But I remember enjoying making, I haven't made paper in a long time. In a long time. But it was magic. It was just probably as magic as when you do your first, you pull out your first print in the letterpress. You know, you just set all this type, do all these things as I, you put your paper through. And there is, you know, beautiful type printed on paper. But yeah, I was fortunate that there were so many things coming together at the same time. And there were so many talented people around me. A lot of talent at the time. A lot of interest in letterpress. And people were, we were trading books. It was just delightful 01:16:00to be able to be, be able to do that with your colleagues. And many of them went and did very well in the different parts where they settled. And I stayed here because then my relationship became very important to me. I decided to stay. My work was being well received. And talking about these Eshleman translator. I was already finished with school and I was working here in my studio and I got a telephone call from him. And the fact was that a dealer came through town, a 01:17:00major dealer, that was based in Minnesota, Steve Clay. And he dealt primarily, poetry and artist books. He had a beautiful store in Minnesota. And finally went and visited. And he asked Walter if he had any talented student that he was willing to look at the work. And Walter said he should look into Marta's work. And at the time, I was working at the Silver Buckle Press under-Kathy ran the Silver Buckle Press for many years. But I was never able to work with Kathy. I was still in school. And it wasn't as easy for foreign students to get jobs, like it is now. Now, as long as you're a student, you can get a job. So I could 01:18:00never, Walter wanted me to be his lab assistant. I could never get a job. You had to be, you know, a citizen. So you could be from out of state, but a citizen. A lot of people came already with TA jobs, teaching assistant jobs, which is what gives you experience when you want to go and teach somewhere else. And that was actually not accessible to me.

SL: Okay. How did you feel about that?

1:18:42

MG: Well, it was frustrating. Because I wasn't sure I wanted to teach, necessarily, but I wanted to be able to have a job. And it wasn't till I, well, for some reason I not only was able to keep my, what happened? Because I think 01:19:00that I wasn't get married when I was working for-oh, maybe I was. Because only because I was a resident, but I still needed to be a student to be able to get a student status. I worked in the conservation lab. The conservation lab never hired anybody as long as they were not, you needed to be a student. It's the same with me. My help is all students. Once they graduate, even if they want to stay, I couldn't hire them. There is no money to hire outside people. So maybe 01:20:00I, that's maybe one of the reasons I started working in, I was working in the Silver Buckle Press under Barbara Tetenbaum. And then I was able to later, much later, this is when I stop working at the Silver Buckle Press, Jim had a job for me. But Jim already knew my work. Because actually when I had my MFA, he was very helpful. He was, you know, giving me ideas in how to present a book. He did some book stands for me. He loved, I think he liked my work. And I took that class for longer than I should have, because I love working in this traditional way as well. And I thought that once you take one class, you need another class because you only do one sample for the different kinds of traditional 01:21:00bookbinding. So I wanted to repeat it and I took another class and I got to know him a little better. So yeah, it was very difficult to be able to make any money. I was, oh, I have to say that I once got a job as a TA, but in the Spanish department. I was still working on my MFA. And my MFA, actually I graduated later than expected, because I practically took a year off to be a TA, and I was doing my art history classes. Not studio classes. The studio classes were too demanding. So I took my requirements in art history. And I was a TA. 01:22:00And I was able to make not just a little money, but a lot of money. Significant for me at the time, because my parents were helping me. But then when I got the TA in Spanish, and only because they needed actually people. They accepted too many freshmans that wanted to be, you know, it's a requirement. So even though they had their own graduate students that all come with assistance, I was invited to, I mean, I applied. Colombian Spanish is considered the best Spanish outside of Spain. I never taught Spanish. And I still got the job. And I loved it. I just loved teaching it. I learned a lot. I took a class in the Spanish department that was considered kind of my outside class and work. You needed to 01:23:00take a class outside the art department. And that was considered, that was accepted. And I learned a lot of techniques to teach. And I had a, oh, it was a lot of work, because you teach every single day. But it was fun. So that time I made some money, which was very important to me.

1:23:25 But then what happened was that this dealer, going back to that, liked my work. And he said, "How many copies do you have?" I said, "I probably have 20 copies." He said, "I would love to represent you. Is it okay if you give me this book?" And it was the book with Cesar Vallejo's poetry and Mr. Eshleman's translations. But at the time, I thought nothing of it. Because I completely -I 01:24:00should have been more aware of it even though, I mean, if you're a printer, you know, you should be aware that you cannot just put out somebody's translation. But, since I gave him credit, I thought well, I'm doing the right thing. It's not like I'm just using the translation. So I get a call from Mr. Eshleman. And Ivan was away. And I was here in the house. And he said, "Well, I think you have done some books of Cesar Vallejo's poetry." I said, "Oh, yeah." And he said, "And also with my translations." I said, "Oh. But you know, they were a class project. I was never intended it to be Because he immediately said, "And you're making some money with my work." And I said, "Oh, I'm sorry. But frankly when I 01:25:00did it, there was no intention in selling my work." He had also told me that who was selling it, and that's how he found out. Because he himself had a bibliographer that she found out all the work that was done, where his work was published.

SL: Sure.

1:25:33

MG: So I said, "I'm really very sorry, but what can I do?" He said, "Well, I can sue you, you know." I said, "But frankly, there were only 20 copies. And I don't think, I don't know how many have been sold. They really make no money significant. But if you want a copy or a number of copies." He said, "I want 10 percent of the copies you made." I didn't even know, I'm thinking wow, do I have 01:26:00any copies to send this man? Well, I don't, I mean, I have given this dealer a few copies. But I also, I had then a little book, like a miniature book. And that was all in English. Using only one poem. And I used it like, I don't know if you're familiar with concrete poetry, which is very playful. And Cesar Vallejo's poetry was very good for that reason. You could really make kind of playful positions of the word, and make just that as the visuals in your book. 01:27:00He said, "But you did more than one book." I said, "Oh, I had even forgotten about that." I said, "Oh, that's right, that's right, there was this other little book. It's a miniature book. And also very few copies." He said, "Well, I would like copies of that." So I said, I mean, it's good, because if he sues me. I said, "Yeah, I will send you. I'm so sorry." He said, "Oh, who's your professor? He should talk about those things in class." And probably he did, you know? (SL laughs) That's what I think. I don't think, maybe he did. But since I was never planning to make any money with my work in class, you know. And also because I was encouraged to have some English, I found a translation. So then, that was it. I sent him some copies. He probably, I hope he thought I was-but he 01:28:00said, "You're making money out of my work." I said, "No, I'm not. I'm really not." But of course it's your work, yeah, I understand that. So that was fixed with that. And then, his bibliographer calls me. And he said, "Marta, I understand that you made two editions. One in handmade paper and the other one in regular paper." I said, "Yeah, I guess I did, because the handmade paper sells a little more expensive, and it's boxed. And the other one, you know, is just regular paper." So she said, "You know what, as a bibliographer of Eshleman I'd like to have every, and we only had the handmade paper copies. So the authors are willing to buy them from you." So she bought them.

SL: Oh, good.

01:29:04

MG: So I thought oh, she's a bibliographer. She's buying them. So maybe everything got fixed with him. I think he probably, when he got the books he said oh my God, look, it's just one poem. It was just one poem. So then I decided to do something else with his poetry, with Vallejo's poetry, not with Eshleman's. And Ivan translated it. And he did a beautiful translation. Poetry is very difficult to translate. And I was surprised how much I liked, yeah, I liked Ivan's translation more. Because we worked it out. We were talking about, Ivan speaks very good in Spanish. Because I only wanted to speak Spanish at the beginning of our relationship. And he's very good at languages. He speaks a 01:30:00number of languages. And you know, he studies language. Loves the grammar. And he really wanted to do that translation. And yeah, we were very pleased with that translation. So I was able to use another poem for another broadside. That was really a broadside. I was very, very happy with it. Yeah, it was a time when I thought Madison, and maybe because Walter was in the intersession for the media, and of course computers were not competing at the time, as they are now. 01:31:00And people really, I can see it. You know, immediacy of the results, you can really do so much. Photoshop. I mean, all the different things that you can do, just to try different things on a page. Which is, yeah, I think it is-but I still think that what letterpress does cannot be ever-I think what computers do now is different. It's the opposite. The text is a little, a relief. You know, it's a relief. You can actually touch it. But that's imbibing to the paper. I don't think it does. And you can easily, I did a lot of use of computer as a tool also to have an image that I, image that I could send. To have a plate 01:32:00made. To do letterpress.

SL: Sure.

01:32:16

MG: But yeah, I can see also why people is very attracted to computers. Because they got better and better. Before, I don't know if you remember, computers couldn't space anything. I mean, they would have a specific rectangular shape, the space between words was so awful. Because that's what they did to justify it left and right. And now computers you can manipulate the spacing between letters very well. And it's probably very time-consuming. I think it is. Unless they 01:33:00have gotten even better. I don't do computer work. But probably that was somewhat corrected. And even letterpress, letterpress has a lot of limitations in the sense that you need to, like when there is an uppercase, and the uppercase in the middle letter has some space around. And then you make word, the next letter is going to appear to fall apart from the uppercase. So you need to cut the letter, the base of the letter. So you need to do a lot of things, also. But it's doable in that sense, too. I think it was harder to do it with 01:34:00the computer trying to fit in good spacing between not just letters, but words. But I probably-do you do a lot of computer work?

SL: I've worked with designers and they are able to manipulate spaces in between letters. So I think it has become much better. Well, you've talked quite a bit. I don't know if you want to end now or if you want to maybe tackle one more and talk about kind of how your time at the UW as a student impacted your career as a book artist.

01:34:47

MG: Very much I think that because of the people that were around me. And because of the support I got when I graduated. Oh, no, see, that's what 01:35:00happened. When I graduated, when you're a graduate student, you can apply for a, what's it called, and you actually, it's kind of a practicum. You're going to say in the country for a year to get more experience.

SL: Okay. Like a fellowship?

MG: No, it's not a fellowship. Although it's called a, a lot of the students do it. And now it's extended to undergraduates. So you change your visa. You're no longer a student visa. You have another visa that is allowing you to get experience. But for that, you have to have a job. And a job preferably in the field. But I think it's not exclusively. You can be a little off the field. But 01:36:00then I was able to get a job with Walter. So he, I was hired by him. And made paper for his, one of his projects, a couple of his projects, or one project. And then I did, also became a binder, book binder for him. And I bound two editions. Fantastic, I can never pronounce that. Gabber... It's a book that he did it periodically with-

SL: Oh, Jabberwocky?

MG: Hmm?

SL: Was it the Jabberwocky stuff?

01:36:51

MG: No. With the-

SL: Oh, Gabberjabbs.

MG: Yeah.

SL: Gabberjabbs.

MG: Yeah. That. Where he writes, you know, he keeps a journal. I don't know if 01:37:00he still does. He has issues with his eyes. So that was a book. That was a beautiful book to do the binding for. And another one called Flora. That one was poems. So I was able to also, you know, work for somebody that inspired my work tremendously. And had such a, he was an inspiration to me. I think his creativity was just tremendous. And I'm having a job, having this job was very good for my, especially the papermaking, the bookbinding. And then Jim Dast, you 01:38:00know, also conservator, was supportive of my work. In general, I felt very appreciated. So I guess that, I just only wish I would have been able to make some money when I was a graduate student because very expensive for me, it was. But there was not that possibility at the time, except when I was able to get that TAship. And, yeah. So it was, I only, I mean, the art department was very male-oriented. I didn't think in my time there, maybe Laura Beth Clark, there 01:39:00was another person that taught color theory. And then she was there when I first came. But she retired. And then, yeah. It was, I was hired to teach as a, also, when I finished, Phil Harrington was taking a sabbatical. So there was, and I applied for it. It wasn't like I was invited to teach. But I applied for it. And I was able to teach typography and graphic design to basic, you know. As a requirement.

SL: When was that? When was that?

01:39:55

MG: That was in, when was that? Maybe 1991. Maybe 1991. Yeah.

SL: So I just wondered if you could clarify the timeline a little bit. You said that you worked for Silver Buckle Press, you worked with Jim Dast, and you worked with Walter Hamady. Do you remember like what order everything happened in?

MG: Well, Silver Buckle Press was first. And then I got the TA.

SL: Teaching Spanish?

MG: No, no. The Spanish was when I was in graduate school.

SL: Okay. Got it.

MG: So I worked at the Silver Buckle first. And then I got the job in the art department as a year appointment.

SL: Okay. And that's when you taught typography?

MG: That's when I taught graphic design. But I actually was working for Walter 01:41:00before that, because I finished in '87. And '88 was the year that I had, it's called practical training. Practical training. That's how it was called then. I'm not sure if it still is called like that. But you had the right to stay in the country for a year. So that was the whole year of 1988. And then I worked at the Silver Buckle Press. And I'm not so sure if that overlapped also with Walter. Because probably did, because since I was in practical training, I had the possibility to work, to get a job. And because I had graduated and that was 01:42:00expected to me, to have a job. And then in 1991, Phil Harrington took a sabbatical and I was teaching. But also I taught the same year at Clark College, which is in Dubuque.

SL: Oh, wow. So did you travel there-

01:42:27

MG: Yes. I actually went and came back the same day. So I taught letterpress printing. And the chairman of the department had been my classmate. She was getting an MFA as well. And it was very busy, but very interesting to me both. The class in, the class that I was teaching at the university here had to do 01:43:00with just typography. We did use, we didn't use much equipment. The students had to work with the letters in many different ways. And that was kind of fun. That was a little bit like what I did when I was in my own, as a graphic designer. And I even had a graduate student in that class. But he was from Taiwan. So I guess he had to do what I did when I came, level up and take some requirements. Yeah, that was a good year for me. I had a lot of teaching experience that I'd never had as a graduate student in the art department. So the trip to Dubuque 01:44:00didn't seem, it was the first time I was driving on the road by myself. But it all worked out well. I very much liked the group that I had in Dubuque, and it was letterpress, which I loved doing. So, yeah. Later on, I got the job with Jim Dast. And that was a part time job, which was very good. And I was working part time in my studio here, being very, as productive as I could. And everything seemed to be working really well. And he decided to retire. And I was asked to 01:45:00fill in while they found, looked for a conservator. And it was not a good decision to say yes, because then they didn't want to let me go part time. I enjoyed the job tremendously because, you know, there are aspects that are very fulfilling. But in many ways, it really interfered with my studio work. And it's very rare that there is a lab run by one person. Very rare. Especially at a 01:46:00university library this large. Most labs are run, even in smaller libraries, by two or three people.

SL: Sure.

MG: So you know, it's one of those things that is a lot of aspects of, you know, I had the chance to teach and make the students love the craft of learning how. For them, it's practically another class that is for free. We're paying them to learn. Not a lot. (laughter) Book people don't make a lot of money. Yeah, it could be more. But it's been better paying. They did some changes in the payroll. And it's better, it's more what they should be paid. But that's what happened.

SL: Okay. Well I think, let's stop there for today. Thank you for your time.

01:47:10

End Track 1. End Interview Session 1.