Interview with Susan Gosin

UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM Interview # GOSIN, SUE GOSIN, SUE (19-) Book Artist At UW: Interviewed: 2018 (2 sessions) Interviewer: Sarah Lang Index by: Transcribed by: Teresa Bergen Length: 2 hours, 35 minutes First Interview Session (June 10, 2018): Digital File 00:00:01 SL: Today is Sunday, June tenth. I'm Sarah Lang with the oral history program at UW Madison. I'm talking with Sue Gosin, book artist, UW alum and cofounder of Dieu Donne Press at the Kohler Art Library. Sue, you grew up in Neenah, Wisconsin. Can you talk about your family life there? SG: I didn't completely grow up in Neenah, but my family have lived in Neenah for, well, since like the late 1840s. and I come from a paper making family. And all of my cousins are, aunts and uncles or whatever, are in some form of paper making. My next door neighbor invented Kotex. I think I mentioned that. So I grew up hearing about it all the time. And I thought of it in terms of tonnage, and I thought of it in terms of bottom line. I didn't think about it in terms of art. But I did grow up hearing about it. SL: And can you tell me a little bit more about growing up? You said you lived partly in Neenah. Like how old were you when you moved away? SG: I actually moved to Neenah when I was ten years old. So my parents, my dad worked for Kimberly-Clark, another paper company. So I was born, actually, outside of New York City. And I think I was exposed to a lot of art and culture at a very young age. And then eventually made it back to Wisconsin. SL: Sure. And do you remember going to any of the museums in New York City? SG: Yes. Very much so. 00:01:35 SL: Can you talk a little bit about maybe one of your first experiences there? SG: Well I do remember going to the Metropolitan Museum. And I remember how huge it was. I don't think I'd ever been to a cathedral before, but I had that feeling walking in. And it was a very different experience than it is now because there were no people there. It was just this big, amazing place, with all of these beautiful things. So that's probably the most vivid experience. SL: And do you remember when you were a child did you draw? Did you paint? How did you get interested in art? SG: My aunt on my father's side was a painter. And my father grew up in Green Bay, actually. And they had a big old-fashioned Victorian house with one of those enclosed porches. And to get 00:01:00 away from her seven children, she would paint in her porch and close the door. And when I would come visit, I'd go in and she would show me the studio and we would talk about her paintings. So it was definitely an influence. SL: And where did you go to high school and college, then? SG: I went to a girls' boarding school outside of, well, actually in Troy, New York. It's called Emma Willard School and it's the oldest girls' school in the United States. And actually Emma Willard is considered the founder of women's education in the United States. And I happened to have, was lucky enough to have as my principal William Dietel, who was really interested in women's rights. Not exactly feminism at that time, but encouraging women to be very independent in fulfilling their potential. He went on after Emma Willard to become head of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. And his world view hasn't really increased, because he always had an incredible world view. And as a matter of fact, I'm going back this coming weekend for my fiftieth class reunion. And Mr. Dietel, who is, I don't know how old he is right now, but he's coming back because he loved our class so much, and is very excited to hear about what all of us have been doing. 00:03:51 SL: Very nice. SG: Oh, and then for college, I went to Beloit College, actually. SL: Oh, you did. SG: Yeah. SL: Okay. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? SG: Beloit was very attractive to me because-well, there's a lot of family ties, actually, to Beloit College. And my older sister was there, my brother-in-law. We have a lot of family members who've gone to Beloit. But one 00:02:00 of the things at that time that was very unusual, and I think there were only a couple of schools like Antioch that had this program, to both get to have overseas education as well as to have a semester where you worked in your field, an internship. At that time, it was very unusual. And so it attracted really interesting students. And of course these were, this was the late sixties, when things were pretty wild, anyway. SL: So did you end up going somewhere as part of your education? SG: Yes, I did. I went to, well, it's going to sound boring now considering how amazing the world is. But I went to London. And it was great. We just had a small, our small class. It was communications class. And because it wasn't aligned with one school, we took a communications class at the London School of Economics. Which, of course, is an extraordinary school. And we studied I Love Lucy, and how American popular culture and communication was tied to the TV. American television. And all of us laughed through the whole thing. We also went to Pinewood Studios, where they made the James Bond movies. And they'd never had students come out. And they thought that we were serious, maybe UCLA students or something, I don't know. But they opened all their doors. We met all their movie stars. We sat down to these huge luncheons with butlers serving. I mean, it was really wild. We also took music classes at Goldsmith's. We did, oh, the most important thing, actually, the head lecturer at the Tate Gallery, Tate Modern, was our art history professor. Mr. Bradbury. And he had developed the art 00:03:00 therapy program after World War Two for the returning vets. And his class was so extraordinary about understanding where artists are coming from in terms of making their work. It would take me a long time to go into a lot of details, but it really was amazing. And we didn't have written tests. They were oral tests. Which, as Americans, wow, that was a new thing. So it was such a good class. I shouldn't admit this, but I couldn't take any art history classes after. They just, looking at a bunch of flat slides on a screen, no comparison to hearing somebody as we walked through the galleries talk about the work, talk about the artists personally, and understand both historically what led to their vision of contemporary art, as well as personally, the emotional issues and how that combined with the two things. Anyway, he was great. So that was a great experience for Beloit College. 00:07:06 SL: Yeah, it sounds like it. And when you returned to Beloit, did you do an internship as well? SG: (laughs) That one was a weird one. I couldn't quite get one. So I ended, I can't remember the store, I ended up working at a store here in Madison. It was fine. I learned actually quite a bit about selling 00:04:00 things, which is never a bad thing for people to learn. SL: Yeah. And so how did you decide to study art at UW Madison, get your MFA here? SG: I was always interested in art. From my aunt. And when I first started taking classes, they were in the printing department. and it was at a time, Lynda Benglis was just starting her career at that time. And I remember people used to pour blobs. Linda was pouring blobs at that time. And it was kind of a do your own thing. And I felt like I wanted more instruction. So I wandered over to the printmaking department. And it was on fire. And it was really interesting. And we learned-we got real tools. And I don't mean that literally, but tools for how to, learn how to express ourselves and communicate. And the teachers were great. All of them were just amazing. It was a very exciting time. And I think the print department here is-I didn't know it was this acknowledged print department; I just wandered over there. But I can see why it was. And the students were absolutely as exciting as the teachers and the visiting artists were as exciting as the whole group. So it was great. 00:08:49 00:05:00SL: Could you talk a little bit more about the tools that they gave you? SG: Well I think by, it's almost like learning drawing. You're learning how to express yourself. As I said. Which is different from a do your own thing and you pour latex whatever on a floor. I mean, that is, too. But it's more structured. And you have to learn how to produce something. And there's something about the process of printmaking that is very journey-like. Probably all artmaking is. But it's very stepped, and the steps are very clear. So I was very grateful to Warrington Colescott who was not only my teacher, he ended up being an incredible mentor. Because not only did he teach me everything I ever wanted to know about etching and engraving, which he did, and he was very good. But he mainly, once he saw that I was a hard worker, that was the most important thing. He really didn't make judgments, per se. it was mainly how hard you worked. 00:06:00 And once he realized I was a hard worker, then whatever I did, fine. So that by the time-I ended up getting very interested in color photography, which was not popular at that time. So again, I couldn't find a niche. And he said, "Fine. Just do color photography, even though you're in my etching class." And then eventually it led into paper making. I didn't bring any etchings to my final critiques. And he didn't care. He just knew I was following my muse and working very hard at doing that. and I would consider that one of the best lessons I learned in terms of being a good teacher. SL: And who else did you study with while you were here? SG: Certainly Jack Damer. Bill Weege. Bill Weege really epitomized kind of this wonderful, freewheeling experimental approach to making art. Very, very open. Less structured. So you had to be a little further along, I think, in your image making, to work with him and get the most from his advice and his instruction. But they were just very experimental times. So he was 00:07:00 really open to all of it. And then of course, Walter Hamady. Learning how to set type, and to make books. And then when he introduced me to paper making, it clicked. Not that I didn't like everything else. It was like being a kid in a candy store. 00:11:22 SL: Could you talk a little bit more about that? SG: About Walter Hamady? SL: Yeah. And paper making. SG: Yeah. So I was interested in, my husband, who helped me co-found Dieu Donne was a writer. And I thought it would be fun if I illustrated some of his writing. So I went to Walter's class and I learned how to set type and how the structure of sewing up a book. And kind of as we got through some of those classes he said, "Well, okay, it's very expensive to print an entire edition of a book. So if you want to, you can make your own sheets of paper. Just go to your grandmother's linen closet and get her permission to take some of her old linens, and this 00:08:00 is how you make paper." So he cut up a rag, put it into a laboratory beater, which is what's called a one and a half pound beater. So you weigh out one and a half pounds of rag. You have to cut it up into pretty small pieces, like one inch by one inch. And then you add water. It's just a tub with a wheel that has bars that hit a bed plate that has bars. And then it grinds the rag into pulp. So I learned it. And it was very funny, because it was like a closet paper mill originally in a type shop. He literally opened a closet door. I don't even know how he did it there, when I think about how much water is involved with paper making. But we did. And then while I was still a student, they moved it down to a basement somewhere over there. So we had a lot more space. And as I often tell people, I got so engrossed in the process that I would sign up at nine o'clock at night because we had two-hour slots, and I was pretty sure nobody would come after me. Then I worked from nine at night till nine in the morning, because I couldn't stop experimenting. It was so fascinating to me. 00:13:17 And, oh gosh, I'm 00:09:00 going to go blank. He taught stage lighting at the time. He worked at the Metropolitan Opera. Very famous lighting designer who I think eventually died of AIDS. But he was teaching in the theater department. And as I mentioned something about art history, I just couldn't take art history from slides anymore. So I thought well, what is art all about, it's really about light. I'd really like to get a better understanding of light and how different colors are separated and then work together. So I took his class, and he was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And he would fly back and forth between Madison and New York. I don't know how he did that in snowstorms and stuff. Because he would have to be onstage doing the lighting at the Metropolitan Opera. And also, his whole vision of how you take what you love onto the bigger stage. And of course when the biggest stage is the Met Opera. So he's a very inspiring teacher. And I was very lucky to take his class. And he asked us all to come in for a private 00:10:00 conference and tell him what we were going to do once we graduated. And by that time I already knew, there's no question that I want to go to New York and start this paper making business. Because if artists knew they could do all these different things, of course they would be interested. So, oh, gosh, I can't remember his name. Anyway, so I went in for my conference and I said, "Okay, this is my plan." And he listened to it for a few minutes. He said, "Okay. We're finished. You know what you're doing." (laughs) Which is great. Of course it gave me a lot of confidence to hear that. And then I just remember when I got my MFA, some of my last graduate seminar critiques, Warrington was so behind whatever I did that, as I said, I didn't show any etchings. Even though I love etching, I was so involved with paper making. And still color photography, doing it on my own. But that's what I showed. And they said, "Great. You know what you're doing." So, 00:11:00 that's the best advice I could offer to any young student. Just follow your muse and work hard, because that's what my teachers told me to do. 00:15:31 SL: So in your lighting class, can you talk a little bit more about what you did in your lighting class? SG: Oh. (laughs) I don't know anything about theater or the stage. Nothing. But we had to, I guess it's called the egg crate. You have to climb on top of this incredible structure that hangs over the stage. And then you have to direct the lights and the gels according to whatever's going to be performed. So just learning about light and shadow and how the colored gels would mix to create, you know, something that feels calming, something that feels the exact opposite, violent, or whatever, it was great. It was the best instruction I could get, I think. SL: So it sounds like you talked about color theory, then, in that class. SG: We talked a lot about-but it was color theory through light, which is quite different from color theory through art making. Should 00:12:00 I take a moment to digress on what I learned later in my life about that? SL: Sure. Sure. SG: So I didn't take color theory as a student. Which was probably a gap, but maybe it was okay. But at any rate, about a decade ago I was working on a book project, a limited edition book project, which is something that I started with Walter at the University of Wisconsin, that whole my path in life. Not only making paper, but making limited edition artist books. So I was working on a new project with the Catalan artist Frederic Amat, and also with Robert Wilson, speaking of lighting. I don't know if you know who Robert Wilson is, the performance artist? SL: No, I don't. 00:17:12 SG: Look him up. He's extraordinary. There's no other master like Robert Wilson when it comes to lighting, actually. But we ended up not using his lighting talents for this book. He has a very curious form of calligraphy that we used. But anyway, Frederic was doing the images, and Frederic chose the Pulitzer Prize-winning-oh, no, excuse me. Poet laureate-oh, no, he was a Pulitzer Prize winner. But anyway, also poet laureate of the United 00:13:00 States, Mark Strand. SL: Oh, I like him. SG: Oh. Then you'll love this story. And it's almost hard for me to talk about my whole experience with him without crying, because it was so touching. At any rate, about ten, it was at least ten years ago. So Frederic and I had known each other from early days at Dieu Donne. He lived back in Barcelona. We were working back and forth. And he said, "Sue, you really need to look up Mark. He's teaching at Columbia. You should get together." So I said yes, yes, I'm always too busy. Anyway, so Mark got in touch with me and said, "Hey, you're on 36th Street. I'd like to come down and meet you." I said, great. So he came down. And we had this big studio on 36th Street with all this papermaking and art making going on. And then an archive with a lot of books and quite a few books that I had done. So in talking about the project that we were about to start, even though they were previously published poems. And Mark didn't have too much to do in that 00:14:00 way, except to say yes, you can use my poems. But he was still really curious. So I showed him a number of books that I had done with other artists. And he was really curious. And then I showed him around the studio, and he got really curious. And I said, well, and he's a very nice man. And I said, I'm going to be, I think that was on Friday. I said, "I'm coming in on Saturday and Sunday because I often go in to do experiments for projects that were coming up when it was quiet and I could work by myself." And I said, "Well, come on in. Tomorrow I'm going to be making some paper. I can show you how to do it and you can play around a little bit." He said okay. 00:19:15 Came in the next day. I showed him some basic stuff. And we always have like dozens and dozens of colored paper, containers of colored paper pulp from various artists who, or classes, or whatever. And people are always welcome to use them. We don't throw them out till they get really stinky. Then we have to throw them out. So there were all these different colors. And he said, "Do you mind if I use some of these?" I said no, no, go ahead. So he started like, and he said, "Can I mix them up a little bit more?" And I said, yeah, they're free for everybody. So I went off to do 00:15:00 some things. I came back and he had what I'll call is a palette, some colors that he wanted to use. And they were the most beautiful colors, combination of colors. And I just was looking at them. And then I started helping him and showing him how he could work. Okay, he was in his seventies at this point. And he took to it like a fish to water, and he was really having fun. So by the end of the day, I knew I was coming back the next day, I said, "Well, do you want to come back tomorrow?" And he said, "Oh, could I? I'd really like to do some more." So I said, fine. This started. So years, over the years, we would get together on average once a month for a weekend. And I would prepare a lot of times the base sheets. But I'd never touch the colors. And he would never mix up-no, I shouldn't, every once in a while he'd mix up his own color. But usually he would take whatever garbage pulps were around and mix them up. And finally after about I don't know, five years, no maybe not that 00:16:00 long, maybe three years, because I was really curious, I said a really stupid comment. I said, "Gosh, your mom must have had a great sense of color." And he always had a twinkle in his eye. A very interesting man. And he said, "Oh, yeah. You know, she did, as a matter of fact." I said, "You have the most beautiful sense of color of anyone I've ever worked with. And you're a poet. I don't quite understand this." And he said, "Well, you know, I did get my MFA at Yale." And I said, oh my gosh. And then-now I'm going blank. Who is the most famous German artist who did all the color experiments? Oh, and his wife. Albers, Joseph Albers. He said, "As a matter of fact, Joseph Albers was my teacher." Joseph Albers did all, the most famous color experiments that have ever been done. And he used his students to do them. And he said so Mark was his main color guy for all these experiments. No wonder why he knew why this color and that color would sing. So I really paid 00:17:00 attention from then on, for the next five years, when we would work-I mean, not that I wasn't before. Because I'd never worked with anyone who really understood color. And I thought well I'm finally, you know, at age, I won't tell you how old I was, but finally at age whatever, I'm getting like the best color theory lesson in art, in an art form, versus light, pure light. Anyway, so that was a very fun experience. And actually, Mark had given up the visual art muse, because poetry had taken over. And he always wanted to get back to it again. So I didn't know these things; I just thought he liked to play. And he did these beautiful things. He had his first one-man show that sold out at a gallery in Chelsea at age 79 of all the experiments and collages that he'd done with me. And then he had his next one-man show that sold out, also. And they traveled to China and all kinds of things. And I would be working with him now. But because we became dear friends-oh, I don't have that book with me, the last book I did. But he passed away shortly after that. Anyway, so that was my color theory lessons. Lessons over many years. 00:23:12 SL: That's a great story. Thanks for sharing it. 00:18:00 So, I guess, kind of going back to studying at Madison, and you were talking about working with some of the different professors here. I wondered if you could remember who some of the other students were at the time. Like did you collaborate with any of those students at the time? Or was that later? SG: Oh, yeah. Actually collaboration has always been very important to me, in any form. The person I had my MFA show with, Jody Shields, who has now become an acclaimed writer, she always was a dual-well, actually I know a lot of people who are writers as well as artists. But a great visual artist. And she got a gallery almost right off the bat. And we had a dog pack. We had a pack of friends, a big pack, actually. We partied as hard as we worked. So she and I-well, as a matter of fact, for our MFA exhibition, we had our exhibition up. But then we had a big party out in those outdoor areas. And we had lots of friends from different departments. The Far Eastern studies, all kinds of things. And a lot of our friends were also performers, so we wrote music and had a big performing group of dancers and singers and musicians. And we had big garbage cans of alcohol. (SL laughs) And that was our MFA party that went on till all hours of 00:19:00 the night. So it gives you an idea. We had a lot of fun. So besides Jody, Paul Wong, who was an excellent lithographer and student of Jack Damer's, one of his prize students. And also Joe Wilfer acknowledged Paul Wong's incredible talent, and had him work at his studio at Jones Road Paper Mill. Wait, was that the whole year? I just went blank. Anyway, Joe definitely championed Paul. 00:25:28 And Paul after, in 1978, I went out to New York in '76 and I invited Paul to come out in 1978. And kind of the rest is history. He became Dieu Donne's master papermaker. Extremely talented artist in his own right. But also an exceptional collaborator, which I have learned over many decades some of the qualities it takes to become a really fine collaborator. And he is that. Ruth Lingen, of course, was a Madison person. Jane Hammond, who's an acknowledged artist. She shows at Galerie Lelong in Chelsea. And she and I collaborate. Those are her hands in this picture. There we go. But she was a student at that time. And her-I don't know if they were married or not, but Art Shade was a teacher, a sculpture teacher, and they built the beater for the first beater that we had in New York. And oh, it goes on. Kathy Grove and Larry List. We had a huge group. Nancy Manter. This is, you know, whenever you do this, you forget your closest friends or whatever. So there were probably 40 of 00:20:00 us that were really quite good friends. And everybody was quite ambitious, too, quite serious. As a matter of fact, since I was the first, I think, of the group to come out at that time to New York, I put almost everybody up, came through, slept in this-actually, they all slept in the soundproof beater room before we got the beater. Which was perfect in New York, because it's very noisy. But lots and lots- And this group, we're still very close. Very, very close. And it's such a gift to form friendships like that, that last your whole lifetime. For the sake of friendship, of course. But when you move to a scary place like New York to have each other's support, I'm trying to think if anyone's kids have married each other. But certainly, you know, we've all had kids together, we've gone skiing together with the kids. You know, it's like it goes on forever. And it really is lovely. And we help each other out in our art careers, also. We still do that, too. 00:27:52 SL: So were you kind of encouraging people to come to New York? Or did people just find themselves attracted to New York and you were there and then they looked you up? SG: Probably more the latter. Not that I 00:21:00 didn't encourage people. I did. But New York is one of the major marketplaces for art in the world, so it's kind of a no-brainer. I mean nowadays you can go to many other countries. But if you're American and you don't speak German or I want to say French, but France is not quite as-well, London has a really amazing art scene. But at any rate, New York's a natural-I mean, Los Angeles now more than it used to be. But at that time, it was like New York or bust. SL: Well, I was reading your essay and you were talking about how the time period when you were in Madison was ripe for experimentation in art. Could you talk a little bit about that? 00:28:50 SG: Yeah. Since I'm a 1960s hippie generation, I think the thing that I remember first, perhaps, are the civil rights movements. Movement, rather. And the various marches. I was not quite as directly involved as some of my, like my sister, who went on the marches. Although I 00:22:00 did go to the first Black Panther convention in Chicago. And I may have been the only white female. It was very intimidating. I didn't stay for that long. (laughs) That was 1968. So there's a lot of like let's remake the world. A lot of empowerment. And then, of course, the Vietnam War started. And I was definitely female, but in the middle of that. And so whether it was family or friends, most of the people I knew did not support the war and were doing whatever they could-if they were young-whatever they could to get out. Oddly enough, I did know one or two people who went over and served. One very dear friend who became a Marine. And he, while I was in college at Beloit, he would be writing me these letters from the front. And I'm embarrassed to say it, of course I really didn't understand what he was writing to me at all. But he made it back, thank heavens. But you know, everybody was concerned about the draft. And at the same time, it's like a time of revolution. You know, Woodstock. I mean, it 00:23:00 really was like that. We thought we could reinvent the world, which was great. And we were such a big generation. There were so many of us that it was very, very powerful. And of course, even though I was in school in the art department in the mid '70s, there was still a lot of residue from all of that. And still a feeling of great experimentation. I think the amazing optimism in this country as we, as the world was rebuilding after World War Two, everyone looked to the United States as having the answers. And when I was in school in London, which was 1970, The Beatles had just ended, which was like a big deal. But I mean, people would, you know, I was talking about going to Pinewood Studios. These are major movie producers. They were turning to us to like answer questions about what the world was all about now. And they did it very respectfully. I don't think they were making fun of us. So it just was very, very different. 00:31:55 And now I travel quite a bit. And I go to Burma to learn, take ox carts out of Mandalay 00:24:00 to learn about bamboo papermaking for the gold leaf paper that they make to worship. As well as I've spent quite a bit of time in India in recent years, and taught in Egypt just before the Arab Spring, etcetera, etcetera. So I spend quite a bit of time in quote "developing countries." And even though there are a lot of struggles, that there is a (makes shuddering noise) come really fast into the 21st century the feeling of optimism and opportunity is not unlike what I felt in the '60s and early '70s. It feels so different here now. It almost feels-in the United States-the way I would feel when I was in London, or I traveled quite a bit in Europe, they were just struggling after the war. Their horizon was close and the opportunities were more limited. I don't know why, but it feels, that kind of heavy feeling 00:25:00 is what I feel in the States now. Whereas when I was in school here in Madison, I mean, the world was our oyster. And we could do anything. It was very optimistic. And we were convinced, of course we had the confidence that we had solutions, the right solutions, that would be good, that were democratic, that were really for everybody. So. SL: Thank you. I was wondering, kind of going back to your collaborations with some of the UW students, were there ones while you were in school that you particularly remember that you'd care to talk about? 00:33:55 SG: Well, I didn't, when I was in school I was really trying to find my own voice. SL: Sure. SG: So the weren't so much specific art collaborations, I don't think, at that time. They were more self-expression collaborations. Or, aka, a party. (laughs) But a very creative, because we used to have big costume parties. I mean, they were pretty elaborate, actually. So everything was 00:26:00 creative. Everything we did had a creative element to it. But I wouldn't say, they weren't like how I think of collaboration now in a more formal sense. It's still, and I often talk about the books that I do as, that I'm building a, it's a new sandbox when I start. So I build the sandbox and then usually I start with the artist rather than the writer. But sometimes just the opposite. So I'll invite one playmate and we start working together in the sandbox. Then we invite another playmate. And it's a very creative process. Usually there's one person who leads. And I consider that to be the visual artist. And actually, recently at this home in New York, IPCNY, we had an incredible panel. And it might be online pretty soon. And my co-curator, Amina Takahashi, conducted this talk with Richard Tuttle, who is quite a well known and accomplished artist in New York. And we, at Dieu Donne, and many people 00:27:00 have, that's why we have a lot of different collaborators, have worked with him. And it's a very good conversation about collaboration. But usually it's the artist who leads the way. And it's an artist who's very open to, and not threatened by, people offering suggestions. But still having a very clear sense about what might be intellectually or experientially very interesting, but not quite, doesn't quite fit their vision. 00:36:06 Certainly, I would say, the best artist, I was going to say the easiest. Usually the best are the easiest artists, because they know what they're ding. They're not necessarily demanding; they just know what they're doing. And the best artists are the best collaborators. They're great, because they're really open to all kinds of suggestions, but are very efficient at editing what's not good for them but what is just right for them. SL: Could you talk a little bit more about how the artist works with the writer, if there is a 00:28:00 writer involved? SG: Yes. A perfect example, okay, remind me to bring, I didn't this time, because it's actually, I have to plan for it, really plan for it. But I'll bring back a Lesley Dill book and a William Kentridge book, for sure, and a Mark Strand book that are fairly easy to bring. So in the case of Lesley Dill, who's another wonderful contemporary artist, we worked with the poet Tom Sleigh. And most of her career has been built on the career of Emily Dickinson. So in terms of visual artists, she more than many is very tied to words, poems, literature. In this case, she wanted to work with a guy, instead of a dead woman. A live guy. A very live guy, (SL laughs), Tom Sleigh. And she chose a poem that-it's not warlike. But it has-Emily Dickinson's, you know, very introspective. And this poem is not. It's like, whoa! Very strong. So because they're good friends, Lesley said, "Tom, do you mind if 00:29:00 I, not rewrite your poem, but do you mind if we print it kind of differently than the stanzas you originally set the poem to?" And he said, "Yeah, do whatever you want to." And you'll see. She like (makes ripping noise) pulled it apart so that the pages of the book are these very vivid lines, or phrases, from lines. And then-(cell phone rings) Oh, I'm sorry. As a matter of fact, I'm so sorry, I really do need to watch the time. So I'll have to end in four minutes. At any rate, she pulled apart this poem and made it her own. She chewed it up and threw it back out again. And it's beautiful. Wait till you see the book. It's great. And Tom loved it, too. He just thought it was wonderful. I did do a book with Warrington Colescott and Jerome Rothenberg. And they had been collaborators. And Jerome Rothenberg is an incredible collaborator and writer of books as well as poetry. Books about books. And so the two 00:30:00 of them had a lot of fun. In that case, Jerome wrote the poems and Warrington responded to them. Actually, that was true with Lesley too, now that I think about it. But oh, I should bring that book out, too. Is that Improvisations? Is that here? SL: Yes, we have that one. Mm hmm. 00:39:13 SG: Okay. Because that has the condoms in it that my dear Warrington, who I love, said, "You know, these poems are kind of juicy, and you know, there's a lot of kind of evocative imagery in the poems. Let's make some paper that kind of goes along with that. Let's make some paper that kind of goes along with that." And I said, "Sure, Warrington. What are you thinking about?" And he said, "Well, could we put condoms in the paper?" I said, "Well, yeah. You can put anything in the paper. But I'm not sure if it will work. But I'm always willing to try something." So I put some condoms in the paper and sure 00:31:00 enough, they were really pretty interesting. I mean, they look like a pattern, but if you think about it, you can tell they're a condom. In the same way that you find a dirty condom like on the street or whatever. And that was exactly what he wanted. So Warrington was thrilled. He said, yes, that's great. And I said, okay. So then I had to make an entire edition of condom paper for this edition of the book. And it just so happened that I was quite pregnant and showing. (SL laughs) And when I went to the pharmacy to get boxes and boxes, I can't remember. I had to get hundreds and hundreds of condoms for this thing. And so I got hundreds and hundreds. And they couldn't be lubricated, because then that wouldn't work in the paper, etcetera. I'd had to do a [unclear] test. But I just remember going and buying these 00:32:00 condoms and being really pregnant. (laughs) And the expression on this guy's face. Like, lady, I think it's too late. You know? (laughs) And then, it was really funny because when we made the paper, we'd double couch, which means you put down one sheet of paper. And then you can collage elements, and then you couch the second sheet of paper on top and it holds everything together. It seals it. But the condoms would blow up when they'd get all this air, and then they'd form these kind of balloon type things in the paper. So we had to puncture every single condom. (laughter) There I was pregnant, puncturing all the condoms. I should have taken some pictures. Because it was funny. Anyway, yeah, so, there's a lot of 00:33:00 give and take. Even if it's preexisting literature, for example, if the person's alive, there's still a lot of give and take back and forth. And oh, one artist's, William Kentridge's sister, Eliza Kentridge, I've done some books with William, and I've done some with Eliza. And Eliza's a poet as well as an artist. I should bring out all these books, actually, because it's easy to show this. So in that case, she didn't change any lines of poetry, of course, anything like that. But the book that-or she could have, but she's a poet. But the book that we did together were three poems from a selection of poems that she had done. And I don't think I've ever-oh, I take that back. With Mark Strand, I also did his writing and his imagery. And it is really fun to work with someone who can do both. It's quite amazing, actually. In Eliza's case in particular, the poems were about 00:34:00 her mother. And they're beautiful poems about her childhood in the '50s. I'll bring the book. And the images have this kind of '50s feel to them. And it was really nice, because we would talk about certain images that were-and especially because it was about her mother, and it was so personal. I got a chance last year to speak at a conference in Johannesburg, a book conference. And I was staying with the Kentridges in Johannesburg. And it was really fun because Eliza was there. Well, at the panel, William was on one side and Eliza was on the other. And it was really fun to talk about brothers and sisters and how-I mean, he's so masculine and she's so feminine. And yet they both have this incredible skill at drawing. It's phenomenal. Which is very South African. They really know how to draw. And staying with them also was their father, Sir Sidney Kentridge, who was visiting because his kids were there together. He actually lives in London now. and he was knighted, I guess, because of all the 00:35:00 amazing work that he and his wife did to take down apartheid. So it was this incredible experience to talk about books and talk about the kids' books. Especially because Eliza's was about his wife. So anyway, I love to do things with families like that, or make families, and it becomes a very rich experience. I can't remember. I just got off track. But actually, I'm going to have to go. I'm sorry. Because- 00:44:10 End First Interview Session (June 10, 2018): Digital File Second Interview Session (July 20, 2018): Digital File 00:00:00 SL: So today is Friday, July 20, 2018. I'm Sarah Lang with the oral history program at UW Madison. I'm talking with Sue Gosin, UW alum, paper artist and cofounder of Dieu Donne Paper Mill. And we're at the university archives in Steenbock Library. So, Sue, last time we were talking about some of your collaborations. We talked a little bit about improvisations. And 00:36:00 I wanted to ask you a little bit about this project called Intergenerationality that you were a part of. And it paired artists from a couple of different generations. Could you tell us about that project? 00:00:40 SG: Yes, I'd be happy to. It was basically combining some of the, not the earliest pioneers, but early pioneers of hand papermaking, which many of us came out of the Walter Hamady tradition, rag tradition, of papermaking. Combining those of us from that time with a younger generation. And in my case, I met Lara Henderson at Haystack when I was teaching there. And she was a part of the MIT Fab Lab. And the Fab Lab was a laboratory that MIT has put together and sent out to the world in many different places, so that people who don't normally use laser cutting and contemporary technology in their art making can learn about it and use it in their own art making. So there we were at Haystack with all these old crafts, whether it's clay or papermaking or glassblowing. And we were able to work with very trained people at the Fab Lab that they had portable fab lab that they had there. And Lara and I started experimenting with 00:37:00 watermarks using laser cutting. And it was very interesting. So later on, when Tatiana Ginsburg was asked to organize this particular project for hand papermaking magazine for their portfolio, she asked me if I wanted to participate and I said yes. And I thought Lara would be the perfect person because she was so well-trained in very contemporary technology. Although she had a wonderful background in the book arts, studying with Hedi Kyle, who's a brilliant, off-the-charts bookbinder and bookmaker. So she's a great person to work with. And Lara has incredible experience in all the different technical techniques, old and new, actually, because she has been very involved with AS 220 in Providence, Rhode Island, which is a not for profit which supplies artists' studios and fully equipped technical studios so that artists can 00:38:00 make their own work. Not in a school situation, but in a not for profit situation. She was delighted. And I went to visit her and I asked her if she would be interested in doing the watermark part. And she said yes, that that would be great. And I had been reading about the experiments by the Japanese water scientist, Masaru Emoto, who, I don't know, have you ever heard of him before? Okay. Well, he's kind of off the charts a little bit, but a bona fide Japanese water scientist. And in analyzing water, the purity and the content of water from all over the world, he and his assistants started noticing that the water crystals were really quite different, and would respond to the environment in which they were being tested. So what would happen is that as the frozen water, there's a split second where it goes from frozen water, or excuse me, from ice to water. And it forms crystals. Not unlike snowflakes, in a way. And they realized that the water crystals, they were taking photographs of these crystals, that if they 00:39:00 had music on, I guess initially they had classical music, Mozart, whatever, that the crystals were very beautiful. But if someone put on some heavy metal music, they were no longer crystals, they were like muddy, murky images. So they started doing all these experiments with how water responds to the vibration that it's around. And I won't go any further than that. It's very fascinating. It's been very hard to repeat these experiments. But I just love the idea that things are that sensitive. And because watermarks, which is what I was interested in, are very sensitive and a part of the papermaking process, which is at least 70 percent water. And of course we're born at least 70 percent water. And then, of course, we dry up and become more prune-like. But you know, the planet is 70 to 80 percent water. We are 70 to 80 percent water. And the thing that I'm most interested in are these watermarks, which are very sensitive and very descriptive. So I thought it was kind of perfect to work with some of his imagery. And I was delighted that Lara did not think I was insane, an insane person from an older generation. (laughs) Instead, she thought it was really interesting, too. 00:05:40 So we went 00:40:00 through, her job was, we went through the images, you can get them online. We went through the images and tried to pick out the ones that were most precise and appropriate for making into a watermark. And I'm not going to get into that, because it would take me a long time to describe how certain images more easily can be translated than other images. So we tried to find just the right image. And we tried one, then we tried another. And Lara was, it was a lot of work to try to translate these images. And then finally, we were both going through them, and I noticed the one, the image that came from John Lennon's Imagine was the simplest and clearest. So I said, "Okay, let's try and use Imagine." And I wish I'd brought that out with me, actually. It's too bad that I didn't. So what we did is we reproduced this particular crystal that is representative of the song Imagine. And it's quite beautiful. And it's a combination of a cotton image couched on top of a translucent water type color that is a translucent abaca. So that was our contribution to this portfolio. SL: 00:41:00 And how long did this process take for you to kind of conceive of that and then to have the final product? Do you know? 00:07:13 SG: A long time. (laughs) Longer than it should have. SL: (laughs) It sounds very complicated. SG: It is pretty complicated. And a lot of it is yeah, because in order to-this would take me so long to explain, and I really would need samples to show you. But to translate an opaque image into something that is illuminated through light. And so what happens is in terms of opacity versus light, you're almost reversing how you think. I don't know. It's too hard for me to explain it. But at any rate, we had an awful lot of fun reading about these experiments, because they're fascinating. And you know, just enjoying trying to figure out is a big puzzle. And then once we figured out the image, I kind of dealt with the papermaking aspects of it. trying to make sure that technically, because she wasn't really a paper maker. And then to edition it, we did a lot of the editioning in New 00:42:00 York City at Dieu Donne. And then I finished up some of it in my own private studio, because it was a much bigger project than we had intended. (laughs) But it worked out pretty well. SL: Well speaking of watermarks, I know you brought another piece along, the Chuck Close piece. SG: Yes. Yes. SL: Would you want to bring that out and talk about that? 00:08:38 SG: Sure. Yes. Well, actually I don't have to bring everything out again, because I showed you. SL: No, you don't. SG: But basically the work that we had done with Chuck Close, which of course started with Joe Wilfer, his initial experiments, which were kind of like paint by number, but with colored paper pulp. And the initial ones were really quite simple and, I won't say crude, but quite simple. And there's something wonderful about the simplicity. And then they got very complicated, where we would have a combination of, and I'm not sure if Ruth already 00:43:00 spoke about this. But using something that looks like you know, a cookie cutter type puzzle pieces in which base colors were put on. And then there would be layers of clear stencils that would be put on top of that with many more layers of colors to build up the image. And then it would go into the press. And then it becomes one piece, one integral piece. It's very different from printing, where you're always putting on the surface of an already made sheet of paper. This is building up with the pulp. So because of my obsession with watermarks, I was curious about working with Chuck making a watermark. And I asked him if he was interested, and he said yes. So we took a daguerreotype of a photograph that he had done, a self-portrait. And I took it to Crane & Co. And they are, unfortunately they're owned by Neenah Paper Company now. But for hundreds of years, they were their own company. And they have been making our currency, our American currency, since before we were the United States of America. SL: Oh, wow. 00:44:00 00:10:30 SG: Yeah. And they have a wonderful museum, paper museum in Massachusetts. Because they really are bona fide paper makers. Even though they started out as hand papermaking, and it went into commercial papermaking. At any rate, they design the watermark devices for currencies. And 00:46:0000:45:00 I'm sure they do this still, even though they're under the auspices of Neenah Paper Company. Ironically, I come from Neenah, Wisconsin. But anyway, they make the watermark devices. And what that means is that the press impress into metal mesh so that the pulp is uneven. Some of it is thin, and some of it is thick. And that's how you form a watermark. And then that is sewn onto, commercially, onto a dandy roll. But in hand papermaking, that mesh is sewn onto a wooden frame to make an individual sheet of paper. So I went to talk to them and they pulled out drawer after drawer of all these wonderful watermarks that they had made for African countries, you know, that had rhinoceroses and lions. And then you know, the European countries, with various kings and queens. And every time I would start to ask a detailed question, they would usually say, "No, we can't answer that." Because watermarks were developed as an 00:47:00 anti-well, originally they were developed to brand the paper. So a papermaker, that's how they would sign their paper. Or a name was included in some way to say that this paper was for this customer, a specific custom paper for a customer. But eventually it became an anti-counterfeiting device. So a lot of this technology was not shared, of course. And there's a wonderful story about how during World War Two, the Germans were making, of course, a lot of counterfeit English money. And they weren't able by simply the printing to-because the printing was so well done-to determine if it was counterfeit or real. The only way that they could determine that it was counterfeit is by analyzing the mineral content in how the different parts of the water had formed the currency itself. And so the combination of the watermark and the kind of water that was used, they realized no, this could not have come from an 00:48:00 English river. It had to have come from a German river. Which I think is pretty fascinating. 00:13:23 So anyway, to get back to the currency grade. So the currency grade is very sophisticated. And it's a light and shade watermark. So you have gradations, it's not a line watermark. So it's quite sophisticated. And traditionally it was made by carving wax. And then a male and a female mold were cast from the wax, lost wax method. And then the mesh was heated up so it was soft. And then pressed between the male and female mold to create the design, the pattern, that was made. So nowadays, it's done photographically instead. But it's basically the same concept. And that's, they would not answer my questions as to the details. Because I think, if you're pretty good at making etching plates or polymer plates, for example, for letterpress printing, that you could probably figure out a way to do it yourself. But probably not to the degree that they do it. At any rate, they said yes, they were 00:49:00 curious about doing this themselves. And the watermark expert who helped me was someone named William Blake, which I loved (laughter) the fact that his name was William Blake. And he was lovely. He was a very William Blake-like person, very sensitive. And we went back and forth and back and forth for months and months, trying to get it right. And then finally, we got it right. And then the next part, as even with the Imagine watermark that I was talking about, is getting the pulp just right. You get the watermark image just right, but then you have to get the pulp itself just right. So that was a whole other process. And actually, the people at Crane had real doubts as to whether or not we'd be able to do it because they're really accustomed to how paper is being made in a commercial context. And there's a certain kind of pressure and 00:50:00 suction and vacuum that happens in that kind of equipment that doesn't happen in hand papermaking, of course. But nonetheless, all these things have been made by hand way before machinery was invented. SL: Sure. SG: So I knew that I could figure it out somehow. It took me a little while. About three years of development, and then we were able to do it. And we added, in this particular case, what you often do with watermarks is you add some pigment because it helps define the image a little bit better than a pure white image. SL: Interesting. Have you done other projects like that since? 00:15:54 SG: Lots of them. I realize my favorite, as a matter of fact, in graduate school with Walter, we had to write a research paper. Which was great. Very smart. Walter was, you know, an incredible teacher. And my graduate research paper was on watermarking. SL: Okay. SG: But I was interested, and that's when, I talked a little bit 00:51:00 earlier about J. J. Plank and well, it was in Appleton. Now it is in Neenah, Wisconsin, which is my hometown. And they make watermarks. But there's also a transparentizing medium that is printed on top of just regular paper. That makes the paper where it's printed with the transparentizing medium look almost translucent. So it's a fake watermark. It's a printed ink. So I did a lot of experiments to try and understand back in graduate school, you know, what happens when you work from inside the structure of the paper, which is really what watermarking is, versus on top, which is any kind of printing. SL: And for your other projects, did you continue to work with Crane? Or how are you handling this? SG: No, not recently. And I'm trying to think-no. Because actually with laser cutting now, you can do some pretty sophisticated things. And there's a way to create that is something, that gives the effect of a watermark, and you're still working with pulp, of course. But instead of subtracting the pulp, which is kind of what you're doing with a watermark, having less pulp in some 00:52:00 areas, what you can do is add on. But you're still working with the concept of light coming through translucent and more opaque areas. But you start with very, very thin paper and then add on. So I don't, I can't remember if you've seen this or not. But when we first worked with William Kentridge, for example, one of the things that we did is to make a suite of drawings with him. And he did the drawing, because he loves traditional technology. Then we had wire watermarks designed, fabricated, that were like his drawings. They were sewn on top of the surface of a laid mold. Laid lines are the old-fashioned lines. Most paper before Baskerville was laid lines. Which I have a feeling-I can go really deep into all this stuff, so I apologize. Just stop me. But when you think about the fact that papermaking went from east to west. And while they were devising how to make paper in the east, something that looks like a bamboo screen, 00:53:00 screening, was used to make sheets. Well that move, that concept moves west. And bamboo doesn't grow in the west. So I think it was replaced with these rods that were sewn down. Because they kind of look like bamboo, but it's a different material. And then it was Baskerville who was of course an incredible type designer and printer, who said, oh, this is really a problem, because all those lines actually are thinner areas. So if you're doing very fine printing, you'll lose the dot of an "i" as it hits that thinner area. Do you understand what I mean? SL: Mm hmm. 00:19:39 SG: But it's so funny because you turn these things around over time. And laid lines indicate handmade paper. So very often, as I was talking about the transparentizing ink that's printed, so very often laid lines were printed 00:54:00 on top of the surface to make it look like expensive, handmade paper. (laughs) You know, it's like this crazy thing. At any rate, so we did have laid line molds-and we do, actually, at Dieu Donne-laid line molds as well as wove mesh molds. And the wove mesh is very even. It's like there are no differences, really. The laid lines you can see these wonderful, very thin laid lines in there. And William liked the old-fashioned look of the laid lines. And then we sewed on these wire watermarks. And then, so we made the sheets. And inside were the watermarks. You really couldn't see them. You just saw, like I showed you with the Chuck Close, you just saw a sheet of paper. And then what he did is, we took the same pulp, exactly the same pulp, and we put it into a squirt bottle, which you could squirt it out and squirt paper, basically. And he would draw with the squirt bottle on top of the surface of the freshly made sheet. And then when it was all dry, he designed a table that's backlit. So the suite of drawings is inside a table. And you turn the table on and the sheets go from just three sheets of paper lying in a 00:55:00 table to these wonderful images that are actually, the thinnest layer, of course, is the watermark. The next layer of opacity is just a sheet of paper. And then the next layer is, next couple of layers, are the addition of pulp drawing that's on top. SL: Interesting. 00:21:28 SG: So instead of working with-it's just basically translucency and opacity. But the way that was done traditionally was always in a watermark form. But now we're working with it in a much broader way. Kind of going backwards and forwards in terms of thickness and thinness. And we do that a lot in a lot of different aspects of papermaking. As another example is, because I don't know if I've mentioned this or if somebody else has. But you make a sheet of paper by hand. It's like dipping a window screen into some pulp. You pull it up, the water goes down, the fiber's left on top. It's still 90 percent water, really. And then you flip it over on top of the felt. And the felt is, traditionally it was wool because the plant 00:56:00 fiber would not stick to the animal fiber. That's why you would do that. And then, you can multiple couch, which means you pull another sheet, and you can couch it exactly in the same place, or you can make a smaller sheet and couch it on top of that sheet. But you can keep on going 20 couches. Fifty, it's probably, who knows how many you could just keep on going, depending on how thick or thin the pulp is, so that you really can, you know, this concept of thick and thin. You really can draw with opacity and translucency very easily. And then you can also between these layers, and a lot of the artists that we work with at Dieu Donne work in this capacity, collage elements of various kinds in between the two sheets or the third sheet or the fourth sheet. And as long as the paper can make contact, I guess it's kind of like pressed flowers or something in a way, it will glue to itself. It's literally like skin. And you can't peel it, you can't like literally peel it apart. It is skin. And it's kind 00:57:00 of like, you know, having a splinter stuck in your flesh. And then the flesh goes over it. It's in there forever. So you can work with that concept to do some really interesting things. It's like an archeological dig, actually. And people do carve into these layers of pulp and added material of some kind. SL: That's really fascinating. Can you talk a little bit about how the wire watermark works, when you were talking about that? 00:24:05 SG: Sure. Okay. Do I have--I was going to take a bobby pin out. But all it is that, okay, in hand papermaking, and actually you could translate this into commercial papermaking, too. But let's stay with hand papermaking. So you have a rectangle. Let's say that's your paper mold. And usually it's, in western papermaking, it's a wooden frame. And on top 00:58:00 of that wooden frame is a screen mesh. So it really is like a window screen. And then if you sew, let's just say a bobby pin. But any kind of wire shape or whatever. A wire shape in a heart, a wire shape, you know, whatever you want to do. And it doesn't have to be wire. But we'll start traditionally. Traditionally it was wire. You just sew it onto the surface-- SL: Of the mesh screen? SG: Of the mesh screen. And then you will have-it's kind of like, what are they called in photography? Is it photo grands? It's kind of like-well, I know, maybe you don't know that. But at any rate, so you'll always have that bobby pin in every single sheet of paper. And you won't necessarily see it when it's just sitting on top of a table, for example. But as soon as you hold it up to the light. Like most paper, or a lot of it, is watermarked. And like currency, you get accustomed to holding it up to the light. And it's really interesting; there's a whole world inside there. So that's what a 00:59:00 simple wire watermark is. I thought about bringing, and I thought, oh, God, Sue, don't bring out everything. (laughs) But one of the first things I did when I left Madison, I was still very involved in being the artist myself for books that I was doing. I did a book of Emily Dickinson poems that I illustrated. And some of the illustrations, what I did, and I have to go back and do this again. Because now when I look at them I think wow, how could I do that? But fairly large for a watermark. Like an 8 1/2 by 11 typewriter paper sized watermark image within a larger sheet of 18 by 24. You fold it over and you have that watermark in the center of one of the pages. And all I did was take contact paper that you'd buy at-well, do they even have Woolworth's anymore? Anyway, you know, like a-- SL: Drugstore? SG: --Michael's Crafts or whatever it is, contact paper. And I cut out the designs that I wanted. And again, remember when I was talking 01:00:00 about layers. So if I wanted it thinner in certain areas, I would put on a couple more layers of contact paper. So I was able to cut out a very precise image. These were of rooms. And they were supposed to be windows of the soul, so to speak, with doors open and windows open and things like that. And actually, oh, I don't want to get into too many technical things. But I kind of like, how did I do it that big? I mean, I think I could figure it out again. Because it's hard to have the pulp have enough strength to form an even-you know, you go from thick to thin. And if it's all thin, that's fairly simple. Not that simple, but simple. All thick is easy. But within the same sheet, so the sheet's like this big. And then that watermark is like that. To go from thick to thin and to control it-it requires a lot of patience. But they're wonderful. So that was just contact paper blocking out the even flow of pulp. That's really all that you're doing. And the simplest way, as I said, you know, bobby pin or any kind of wire, you sew it on. 00:28:05 But you know, the more we play with it, and this 01:01:00 is what's so much fun, working with papermaking creatively, is that all these were traditional techniques that we have borrowed from the craft. And of course the craft really was the commercial technology of its day. And then it becomes something antiquated. And then it's called craft, right? But it's just laying with that concept, because they didn't have contact paper. But now I do this all the time, where I just cut out some mylar in the shape that I want. And I used to worry about oh, is the contact paper sticking enough? Is there enough stick? And I'd spray adhesive to make sure that everything was stuck down. Or like with the wire, the mesh watermark, sewing it correctly so it was beautifully sewn. I mean, I can't tell you how tedious that is. Now I just cut out the mylar and I slap it down on the wet mold. And there's such an incredible suction that happens naturally between the surface, because of water, the surface of the water on top of a wet mold and how smooth that mylar is, that it doesn't fall off. I thought oh, it's going to fall off. But no, it just sticks. 01:02:00 So you know, the more you play with it, the wider the range and the more flexible it all becomes. But that's because we're working with things in individual problem-solving cases of making art, instead of trying to make thousands of sheets of paper that are exactly the same. It's a different thing. SL: I like that you mentioned problem solving. Because when we get to talking more about the lab grant program and working with different artists, I would like to hear more about that. SG: Yeah, it's all problem solving. (laughter) SL: But you also brought another work that you were showing me. And could you talk a little bit about that one? 00:30:16 SG: That one Kentridge book. SL: Yes. Exactly. SG: So personally, of course, I'm a University of Wisconsin student. Which means that Warrington Colescott and Bill Weege and of course Walter Hamady were all incredibly important teachers to me. and this is a book that I published a few years ago. And I still publish as Dieu Donne Press, which is separate from Dieu 01:03:00 Donne Paper Mill, though I definitely am involved in, I started both and am definitely still involved in both. But because I love books, I've just kind of continued doing these on my own. And I also describe them as each collaboration is like building a sandbox. And you start with one friend and then two, you invite another friend, that's how it works. And certainly that was the case with William Kentridge. I had known him from Dieu Donne Paper Mill, the work that he, some of the work he'd done there. And then I met him another time after a lecture that he gave and when he mentioned a couple of the poets that I admire a lot. So I said, "William, do you want to do a book?" And he said sure. And so, as I mentioned that we spent three years just reading poetry, which was really fun with an artist like William Kentridge 01:04:00 to meet at a different museum every time and just sit down for an hour or two at the Met or the Frick and read poems, and decide which ones to finally pick. And we ended up picking the poems of the only female Nobel Laureate. And I'm not going to say her first name, because I'm so bad at it. But her last name's [Wislawa] Szymborska. And we picked some of her poems. And it was towards the end of her life, actually. William as always is working on many different projects at the same time. And some of these images, you can cross reference with movies he was making at that time. But the images were actually made, for the most part, let me see if I can find one. What he often does for a lot of the work that he does, whether it's movies that he makes or opera sets that he does, he will do a drawing, you see the drawing in the background. And then he puts a still life in the front of that. And that's the first start of the image. 01:05:00 So you have two realities right there. And then he'll start working on top of that. So what we did, Randy Hemminghaus and I brought copper plates with a lot of these images that he had taken to him. Like this image in particular is just dry point, actually. So this was a copper plate that we brought. He right there did the image, while we're all working together. And he is so facile, in a good way-he knows what he's doing-that we were throwing copper plates at him like frisbees. (SL laughs). And he was working so fast that we almost couldn't keep up. At any rate- 00:33:25 SL: Sue? SG: Yeah. Go ahead. SL: Can you tell us what the name, the title of the book is, and when you did it? SG: Oh, okay. The name of the book is Receiver. And was that 2006? I can't read upside down that well. SL: Yes. SG: Okay. So it was finished in 2006. But most of the books I work on, I would say, take a good three years. And it's really a year of putting together the ensemble of people working together. The sandbox, as I said. And 01:06:00 then figuring out who's going to do what. And very often, I start with the artist-not always, but often start with the artist. And then we pick a poet. And then for me, all my projects always start with the paper. Most book artists, I don't think, really think about the paper like that. But of course for me, it's the paper. And then, so we start building. And again, it's always working with opacity and translucency, because that's my great interest. So here's another photogravure. In this case, this is just a, well, okay. It's a photogravure of a drawing and the still life. And then, so we went back and forth with this is the same fiber, it's called abaca, and it's the banana family. And with almost every plant that grows on the planet, you can make paper. And it's all different, so you can imagine how many different kinds of paper you can make. But there are only a few fibers that have been found by different cultures working over centuries that seem to adapt well to different purposes, and are strong and last for a long time. So cotton, for example, the mulberry 01:07:00 in east, and then it moved towards cotton in the Middle East, and then into flax, or linen, as you get into, from Middle East up into Europe. But there are other fibers, too, like this abaca, which is fabulous. And you can see how, depending on how you process it, not only is it different in terms of opacity, but in terms of hardness and softness, it has a very different feel. And you can hear the difference between-and it's exactly the same stuff. So I love to play with the nuances of, the subtleties of each fiber. And again, here's some more of the images that are the photogravures. So this one is, this is just dry point, also. This has got a little-I think I can find some that literally I can really tell which ones. Sometimes I can't tell which ones have dry point and which ones have some kind of work inside the photogravure. And this one is just dry point. 00:36:29 SL: And so this one is actually, the image is printed on-- SG: On the 01:08:00 translucent. And this was not the first time, but the first time that I did this in depth in terms of printing on this paper the way it's been processed so it's very translucent. It is extremely, when I say extremely, difficult to print on. SL: I believe it. SG: And if one point this printer, Randy Hemminghaus, who is a genius, he's wonderful. I called him up and I said, "So what's going on?" He said, "I don't know, I'm at the hospital." (laughs) Because he was having heart palpitations. And I thought, oh my God, I don't want him to die trying to figure out how to do this! (laughter) But I won't, it would take me too long to explain how he did this. SL: Sure. SG: But there's a very different quality. And then to have this translucent layering of the images. To have that dream sequence. And you can see it from, the ghost of it. Because the whole point of the poems is discussion-that's a very prosaic way of saying it. But it is talking about using your imagination. How these images, this poetry, comes from imagination. Comes from inside yourself. 01:09:00 Inside your world of imagination, your fantasy. And then you make it manifest. So William was kind of mirroring that whole discussion through this description of layers of very poetic images. And then you get into images that are much more concrete and narrative of how you make those images manifest and real. And as we go through it, you hear, as we go through these poetic images, in praise of dreams. So it's this wonderful conversation about where inspiration comes from. And how, for the artist and for the poet, it starts inside the head. Oh, this is a perfect example of, okay, here is a photogravure of a photograph of a drawing with a still life. And then the dry point is done on the surface. You can see that, how it goes right out to the edge of the plate. And along with that, and you can see William working in his studio. He's actually making his movies. This is how he makes his movies. I don't know if you've 01:10:00 ever seen them. Go online if you've never seen them. They're literally mind-blowing. I mean, all of his work is incredible, but his movies are shocking. And he grew up in, he's still, he lives in the family home he grew up in in Johannesburg. And his father, Sir Sidney, and his mother, were instrumental in taking down apartheid. And so he grew up in a household that was under threat, actually. They're very well-known lawyers in their world. And they fought hard. And they won. So William and his siblings got the ringside seats to see how you change history. And the courage that it takes, and the determination. And you know, talk about an honor to work with somebody like this. I mean, of course he's a well-known artist. But it's not just that. He watched his parents change history. And when he, a few years ago, he was asked by Harvard to do the Norton series. And it's a series for poets, usually. Occasionally they'll ask a non-poet to do it, and they asked William to. And of course his work is very 01:11:00 poetic. And he called up his father, Sir Sidney, who now lives in London, in Oxford. His father was in his nineties by then. And his father had actually taught at Harvard after he had done the work he felt he needed to do in South Africa. And he called up his dad and he said, "Dad, guess what? Harvard asked me to do the Norton series." And there was a long pause. And then his father said, "Do you have something to say?" (laughs) Which I think is like, wow! And the fact that William started the series at Harvard, he started every lecture, there were six or seven of them, and he'd start every one telling that story. And it's so great. And then, oh God, I could tell you so many William Kentridge stories. But I was very fortunate because last year I was asked to participate in a book conference in Johannesburg. And I'd worked with William's sister, Eliza, who's a brilliant poet and artist, both. And so I was invited to stay at the family home with all of them. And his father came from London because 01:12:00 he wanted to be part, you know, he loves his kids. He's an exceptional man. So William and I were talking about some projects. And then we pulled out this book. And I had William on one side and Sir Sidney on the other. We went through the book. And I just kept on remembering that comment, "Do you have anything to say?" (laughs) And he's a really gentle, lovely man. Very smart at 96. I will never be even close to his intelligence in any way, shape or form. You know, here he is at 96, but very vital and vigorous still. And I said, "Would you mind if I ask you a question?" So I blurted out the story about do you have anything to say? And I said it because I realized what a nice person he was after spending some time with him. Because it's such a terrifying comment for a parent to make to a child. So I said something like that. And he said, "Of course. Do you have something to say? You need to think about that." But he said it in a way that was like an encouraging, not like, "Do you actually 01:13:00 have anything to say to anyone?" So anyway, I was glad that I got to get to the bottom of that terrifying comment. (laughter) 00:42:49 Anyway, so here is "Reality Demands this Poem." And you can see how here's reality. Here it is, this imagination, this poetic imagination that's being manifest. And the other thing that's going on in the poems is that it's going from being so inside yourself and your own imagination, and then it's coming out into the world. It's being born. It's becoming physical, manifest, in terms of art. And then these poems go, this is "The Ball," and it's almost like the astronauts, in a way, seeing our planet from afar. So you go, you start, it's micro to macro, the whole book is. And then you're going out into the, into the universe, and sharing this creative energy. And this is "Under One Small Star." This is incredibly poetic 01:14:00 about how here we are in this huge universe, the wonder of being in this huge universe. And these images, if you can see these little dots going around, William was going crazy because there was an ant infestation in his studio. And he didn't know what to do with it. So being a very clever person he thought, so he drew a drawing in sugar water on the floor of his studio. And the ants lined up and marched along and made the drawing. And then he filmed them. And then everything he does is in black and white. And of course he grew up in a very black and white world. So he's always playing with positive and negative, black and white. And so as you can see in this image, he reversed the ants from being black to white, and now they become stars in this universe. And this is paired with this poem about going out into the world. And here they are as ants. (laughs) But you know, you kind of go back and forth. And it was really fun. 01:15:00 00:44:57 And then here's an image of he's not there anymore. It's negative, the negative. And there's an empty studio. The fun part about working with William, and he really is this way. He's very poetic. It's not linear. It's not logical or rational. It's intuitive and it's poetic. And because so often these books are cut up for the images, we were concerned about that. So we made up a last image that shows all these different aspects of how he works. So here's the drawing in the background, the still life in the foreground. There's William actually working it. And then some dry point drawing that's on the surface. So that hopefully people won't tear up the book and let it stay whole. So that, you know, needless to say, an incredibly fun, fun, fun project. Which is what most of them, all of them are, maybe I should say most, but all of them are really fun. And it 01:16:00 really is, all of it is problem solving. All of creative collaboration is problem solving. And one of the things that I love to talk about, the funders, who are interested in funding Dieu Donne, then said, I don't care if it's little kids or big kids, whatever it is, whenever they can come in and especially work with handmade paper, it is such a generous medium. It's like just stuff. It's not like clay, it's very different from clay. But still, it's just this, you know, you're playing in water. And people say, all, I mean, like decades, "I'm not an artist, I can't draw," da da, da da, da da. But we say, "Well, just make a sheet of paper." It's so simple. They make a sheet of paper. And then we say, "Here are some squirt bottles. Here's some red and some blue and some yellow. Just squirt it down. Or put your hand on top and squirt around your hand." Whatever. And all of a sudden you have these people who say "I'm not an artist" 01:17:00 making all these wonderful things. And then of course it's dried and they get their sheets of paper or their artwork to take home. And it's very gratifying. And I think it really does build people's self-confidence in problem solving. Because anytime you do a creative exercise, it builds that muscle memory of there's probably a solution I haven't thought of. You're not in a corner. You can always turn and there's another way to go. 00:47:42 SL: Well, Sue, let's talk a little bit more about that. I know that Dieu Donne's lab grant program is, they work with artists, a lot of them, who are like mid-career. So they're not just starting out, but paper's a new medium for them. SG: Exactly. SL: And so I was curious to know how you and even in your own projects with the press, how do you kind of help an artist that you're collaborating with translate maybe what they want to accomplish, or even let them know what's possible in paper? How does that work? SG: It is a translation. And very often you have to go to the artist's studio. And you really need to look at, let's 01:18:00 say they're a painter. But you need to look at their drawings. You need to look at their prints. How they use materials. How they layer their concepts. And then it really is a translation process. And I will never be a translator in languages. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's similar. I mean, in terms of translating like a fine novel or whatever. So you don't do it literally; you do it poetically. And the key is to, it's just, now it happens so organically for me that I actually go into these big art fairs and I get overstimulated immediately, because I just start translating like all this work right away into our medium. But going back to opacity and translucency, for example. You know, so all art is light, right? So you can think of it that simply, in a way. For example, I've never worked with James Turrell. Do you know who he is, by any chance? Well he's Mister, Mister, 01:19:00 he's God, at this point. He really works on a God scale. But I look at his work. They're huge sculptures. But they're basically light and color. And I think to myself, okay, I know how to make these beautiful, I mean, absolutely gorgeous translucent colors. They sing. It's like music, almost. They sing. And all I need are the shapes to make them in for his composition, and I can help deliver the materials that will make those shapes sing and become a choir. 00:50:44 So everybody's different. And very often, for example, like Arlene Shechet, I don't know if I brought any materials about her. And did I, or did you go online, that show that Meen and I-okay, because if you went online, there's quite a bit of information there. But Arlene Shechet is an artist whose reputation is really growing more and more, which is great. That's another thing that's very exciting to work at Dieu Donne and to work with emerging artists. It doesn't make any difference what age we're talking about, but usually younger, though. And they're working out ideas. And you help them 01:20:00 work out their ideas. And you do this over decades. And you watch them mature. And you all together learn how to explore this medium together and become more and more sophisticated. I mean, certainly with Chuck's, that happened. It was a simple concept that had the ability to become very sophisticated. And it did, over time. Then I did this other strange thing. So like Arlene Shechet was in that show. Which, I'm so glad I went over to look at that museum. God, that museum would be perfect for this show. Perfect! SL: And while you're talking about the show, let's say it's the Paper Print American Hand Papermaking 1960s to Today. SG: Correct, yes. SL: And where was that? SG: At IPCNY, which is the International Print Center of New York. And it's probably the most prominent not for profit gallery about prints that 01:21:00 celebrates the print world. So these are all people who are very familiar with paper, although again, they're usually thinking about the surface, not the whole thing. And this was the first exhibition that they ever had-which is kind of amazing, when you think about it-the first exhibition they ever had where the focus, it wasn't entirely on handmade paper, because we really did want to show how paper evolved out of this incredible marriage of paper and print. Because they're just naturals. And it really, paper was invented about two thousand years ago. And then 500 years after that, printing became integral to life. I mean, there was printing before, but it wasn't integral to life. And then the rest is really human history. It really is. Until the computer. Until the internet. So it's kind of fabulous when you think about it. I don't know, I often talk about these concepts, so forgive me if I'm repeating 01:22:00 myself. But I do feel that when a new technology takes or proceeds an old one, the old one, I often talk about artists go to the flea market of technology to find out the inherent value of a discarded technology. And certainly that happened like in lithography, it had been used commercially to make images for newspapers. And then offset took over from stone lithography. So stone lithography became an artist's tool. And the same thing has happened in papermaking. And now in printing and paper. And the book arts, of course. You know? I don't think the book arts would have flourished the way they have for the past similar amount of time. I mean, there have been, certainly the Arts and Crafts movement, there have been periods. But now, the book arts, I mean it's just unbelievable what's going on in the book arts. And 01:23:00 it's because, I'm sure, of the internet. The internet has taken on the ox burden, the yoke of the utilitarian aspects of communication so that the other, the art aspects are freed, in a certain way. 00:54:53 And so this particular show, we wanted to show how papermaking was a passive partner to the printing process, various printing processes. And it eventually started evolving really, I mean, certain decorative techniques or commercial techniques, like watermarking, which was a commercial technique, of course. But there were all kinds of decorative techniques that were certainly invented in Asia and in Japan. Beautiful Japanese papers that you can think of. But they were done in a decorative way, not in terms of self-expression, the way an artist would use that same technique. So it was really in the 1950s, and you can read this, I don't need to repeat it all, but it was really in the 1950s that one artist in particular, Douglas Howell, who was a brilliant printer, engraver, you know, all the book arts, and then 01:24:00 papermaker. Once he got into papermaking, just like, wow. You can do this with it, you can do that with it. So he invented our vocabulary, in a way. And actually, I can't remember if I've talked, forgive me if I have talked about this. So Douglas Howell started inventing all these techniques. And then Laurence Barker, did I talk about this? Laurence Barker went to visit Douglas Howell-- SL: I think you did. SG: --and took a weekend workshop. And then went back to Cranbrook. And that's where Walter was in school. And he introduced this small group of students, printmaking students, to papermaking. And then the rest, you know, was kind of history. But so the show shows just a sampling of that, of the key people who kind of took to it. And then it shows when it leapt out, when the paper became the act of sole performer, if you want to think 01:25:00 about it that way. And I can't remember if I mentioned this or not, too. But I often think of papermaking as being feminine and printing as masculine. SL: Oh, interesting. 00:57:03 SG: Because the printing (claps hands together) goes on top of this support system. And papermaking is so tied to nature. Even though you think of it as like, where are the plants? But actually the plants are there. They're inside that fabric. And it's a very natural process. Certainly if you do any kind of Asian papermaking, you're very close to the harvesting the plants and cooking the plants and all that kind of stuff. And it's very generous in that way. And so right around, and I may be stretching this a little, but I don't think so. I lived it. So the same time that feminism was really coming to the fore in the United States was also the same time that papermaking, that this passive support for printmaking was becoming not so passive anymore. And then a sole performer. So I do think of them as-that it's 01:26:00 interesting that it was happening at the same time. I'll put it that way. SL: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well in talking about the history of all of this, it does remind me a little bit about the first North American Hand Papermakers' Conference in Appleton that Joe Wilfer organized. Were you there? And could you talk a little bit about that? 00:58:30 SG: Yeah. It was incredible. Joe-you know, I'm sure Ruth talked about Joe quite a bit. And just an amazing personality. Very talented. Really fun, adventurous. And he realized that it was time for the papermakers to get to know each other. So he organized the first-it wasn't an official conference, I don't think, because what evolved out of that is something called The Friends of Dart Hunter. Has anyone explained that? SL: No, we haven't talked about that. SG: All right. Then maybe I'll talk about it just a little bit. So, the Dart Hunter. Dart Hunter was the American who, a William Morris type in the sense that he set his own type, he designed it, 01:27:00 set it, printed his own books, and realized that what he was missing was fine, handmade paper. So he went to England and got some papermakers. Brought them to the United States. Tried to set up two papermills. Went bankrupt each time. This was in the thirties. Trying to set up something like hand papermaking in the thirties. Anyway, it didn't quite work. But he got so fascinated by the process that he started traveling the world to all the outpost places where papermaking-which it was taking place all over the world in all these different ways, and with different plants that grew in someone's backyard, you know. And so he documented. And it really was the demise, in a way, of the craft, the old craft. And it was great that he did this. And he collected a lot of like paper molds. All kinds of things that were used from all over the world. And so he had this amazing collection called the Dart and Hunter Collection. And originally he gave it to MIT. And then MIT gave it to, what was it called? They've changed 01:28:00 their names. The Paper Chemistry Institute in Appleton, Wisconsin. And it just you know, kind of was abandoned, this kind of historic collection that was really abandoned. Because these were all commercial papermakers. They weren't really interested in, you know, how people beat mulberry back whenever. They should have been. But at any rate (laughs), so those of us who got interested in hand papermaking, which Joe definitely did, realized that there was this amazing collection not that far away. Nobody really paid attention to it. So he organized for a group of us to come and take a look at the collection. And it was the first time that many of us met each other. And these were, again, the students of the students. They were Walter Hamady students. Aris Koutroulis was another, I believe he and Walter were students of Laurence Barker's at Cranbrook at the same time. Tim Barrett, who's another person who teaches at University of Iowa. At any rate, so Joe got us all together. And people started saying, "Oh, gee, what do 01:29:00 you call that when you do that? Okay." And then we started creating our own vocabulary for different techniques. And just comparing notes for the firsts time. And it was also, at least for me, personally, it was fun because I got to meet Richard Minsky, who had just started the Center for Book Arts in New York City. And he was very curious about papermaking but really didn't know anything about it. And I said, and by that time, I knew that I wanted to go to New York to start a papermaking facility. And so I met Richard and the Center for Book Arts and Dieu Donne have been friends since. And we do a lot of collaborative things together. We have over many decades now. So it was definitely a coming together of people. Hand papermakers. I would say, not, many of the people were coming out of some printmaking tradition. Bookmaking, prints. One person, Garner Tullis, who had trained separately, he was self-taught, from the University of 01:30:00 Pennsylvania, started the Experimental Printmaking Workshop in California. And he was working with major artists like Louise Nelson doing cast paper. So relief casting as well as three-dimensional art. So he brought that into the mix. And it was great. And you know, Joe was the perfect ringmaster. Literally a ringmaster to introduce us all to each other. And he continued to do that for the rest of his life. 1:03:20 SL: And then can you talk about your making your way to New York to found Dieu Donne? SG: Sure. So I don't know, just the lightbulb went on when I was here at the University of Wisconsin. It just seemed so obvious to me that if artists could, even just making their own custom sheets of paper. Because if you actually go back in history and look at the drawings of various artists, for example, Seurat, I don't know if you're familiar with his beautiful drawings. They have a certain quality to them that it's different from the paintings, but they have, it's almost a smoky quality to 01:31:00 them. And he had paper made specifically so that he could get that effect. He knew exactly what he was doing. It wasn't store-bought. Not that I knew that at the time when I was a graduate student. But it was quite obvious to me that boy, even like a slight tint, if you liked a little rose in your color, or a color to your paper or whatever, or green or whatever it was, that you might want to do that. And then of course if you wanted to create in the paper pulp. Because you needed certain kinds of equipment. Most people really wouldn't know about any of this. So we had researched some of the historic equipment. We knew about some of it from my class here with Walter. But we had to go a lot deeper in terms of research. And it was good and bad to move to New York. New York is extremely expensive. The city was almost bankrupt at that time, so SoHo was 01:32:00 very inexpensive, relatively speaking. The best place that we could find was the fifth floor loft in SoHo, which you don't really want to put something with water and drains on the fifth floor when the neighbor below is a painter, an oil painter. So we had to learn the har way about certain things. (laughs) For example, once we finally got all the equipment in there, I can't remember if I mentioned this or not, but we would test the equipment. And there's a difference between the weight of something that's stationary versus the wait of something that's moving. When we turned on the beater with all this moving water, it was the vibration. You could feel it. It was so powerful that the floors were going like this. And even though, of course I checked with the landlord to make sure it could carry that load. A stationary load is very different than moving water. So called up some more engineers and they said, 01:33:00 "Oh, boy, you better turn it off immediately. Because just a few blocks away we had a similar problem with a different client, and they went through five floors down to the basement." (laughs) SL: Oh, wow. 1:06:15 SG: So we had to stop everything and re-brace all the flooring so that it could handle it. Anyway, so you find out those things the hard way. But Canal Street was very nearby. And we were always inventing new techniques of doing things. And it was great to go to the Bowery, and to go to Canal Street, and to get spaghetti restaurant-sized spaghetti strainers to strain our pulp. I mean, that would have been hard to find in Madison, for example, it wouldn't even have occurred to us, really. So it was actually really great to be in New York. And then also in terms of finding fiber. Because Walter had said it has to be out of rag, it has to be out of rag. So we were lucky, because we could go to the Garment District and go through, we'd tested, there are so many names for shirting, for diaper cotton. You know, there are all these different kinds of cotton. And linen and flax. Oh my God, that's even 01:34:00 bigger. So we tested all these different types of cuttings and fibers. And that's because we were in New York, also. So that was great. So it was definitely an adventure. And it was such an odd thing that Arlene Francis, who I'm sure you aren't familiar with that name. But she was a famous interviewer way back when. And she was working for Voice of America. Do you know what that was? It was an anticommunist radio program that was broadcast into communist countries-- SL: Okay. SG: --about how great America, you know, all these different things. So she interviewed me about hand papermaking, contemporary hand papermaking. (laughs) So I kept thinking, gosh, you know, I'm sure these people in communist countries what to hear something other than how to make a sheet of paper by hand. (laughs) It seemed like such an odd 01:35:00 thing. But, at any rate, so we were definitely a novelty. And then it started to catch on. And the thing that really changed things for us is when my dear colleague Ken Tyler, who I could go on with stories about him, and how he reinvented and revolutionized all printmaking in the United States in the 20th century. And he figured out that the paper aspect was really interesting. And he took Robert Rauschenberg to an old mill in France. And they created some of the first handmade paper art of contemporary artists. And those are wonderful stories. And then after that, the other artists of that stature were saying, hmm, this is kind of interesting. And then he got David Hockney involved. And for 40 days and for 40 nights, he wouldn't let David Hockney go 01:36:00 back to England. (laughs) He made him work in paper pulp, making these huge pools. I don't know if you know David Hockney's work, but it's often, or at least for a period of time when he was in California, it's all about California pools. And they're beautiful. They're absolutely beautiful. And of course it's a water medium, and he was making this pool type imagery. And just like, boom! Immediately, people got it. And our phone was off the hook. And the rest is history, so to speak. 1:09:43 SL: That's great. Can you talk a little bit, too, about the time period? Like when you moved to New York. And then also kind of what was happening elsewhere in New York City. Like the Studio 54 visits, that kind of thing. SG: Well, 01:37:00 (laughs) I'll start in Madison. I had a great group of, very creative group of friends. And I had my MFA show with Jody Shields. And we had so many multitalented friends, not just from the art department, but from actually Far Eastern studies, a lot of our friends were Buddhists and were really, you know, cool Buddhists. And so we had a big show that we put together as part of our MFA show. It wasn't just the artwork. It was actually a big party. And we composed all this music, and we had a band and singers and dancers. And we had this big, it was open to everybody, this big party. So that's kind of how my group was. And we used to do collaborative art pieces, too, that were just done for the fun of it. That were very interesting. So when I went to New York, I was the first of this group. And all these different friends would stay in, like we had what's called the beater room. It's a soundproof room so that you 01:38:00 don't have to hear the beater. And the beater hadn't been built yet. So it was very quiet. (laughs) So people would come and stay in the beater room. (laughs) But different people would come through. And that whole sense of working hard and playing hard definitely came to New York. To the point where, because we would go out dancing every single night to Studio 54 until the wee hours, until four in the morning. So we wouldn't get it together until eleven o'clock or whatever the next day. And you know, by the time we got our orders together, this is for building the studio, our lumber orders, it was too late to get the wood that day, because we hadn't gotten the order in. And then we'd go out dancing until the wee hours, and then it would happen again. (laughs) But we would do things like, Andrew Ginzel, who was wonderful at helping us build the studio, is now quite a famous artist himself. We used to jump on our bicycles when we'd get back from dancing. Bicycle down to the Fulton Fish Market at 01:39:00 four in the morning and get lobsters for everybody. Bring them back, put the lobsters into the papermaking vats. (laughter) And then the day would start at whatever time, noon, and we'd work. And then we'd have a big dinner party with the lobsters, and then go out dancing again. There were a lot of clubs. CBGB's, the Ramones, all these people were, it was a very creative time. And you know, why not be a part of it? 1:12:51 SL: And that was around 1976? SG: Yes. Andy Warhol, yeah, and the whole, I remember meeting him a number of times. SL: Oh, did you? SG: Yeah. SL: Can you talk a little bit about that? SG: (laughs) Just meeting him. I mean, yeah. He looked exactly what you would think he looked like, and was as obscure as you would think he would be. I certainly didn't hang around the Factory or anything like that. But it was really interesting. And all kinds of artists were coming and going. I don't know if you know 01:40:00 like Roy Lichtenstein and his sister-in-law lived downstairs. And just getting exposed to the extraordinary talent that flows in and out of New York all the time. It still is a great experience. It really is. SL: Well, Sue, I know that Paul Wong wasn't part of Dieu Donne initially, but he did come aboard. SG: Mm hmm. SL: Can you talk-and he's been there for a long time. I think he's, is he leaving now? 1:14:01 SG: He's recently retired. Although he comes back to work on a contract basis with certain artists. Because he's so talented, so insanely talented, and so generous. He and Ruth are absolutely sterling examples of what Madison has produced in terms of truly great-and Joe Wilfer, too-truly great collaborators. And to be a great collaborator, it means that you have to be as talented as any artist you're working with-and these are the best of the best-as talented and as disciplined, but with a willingness and actually a real joy in sharing what you have to offer in collaboration. I mean, everybody 01:41:00 needs credit. But obviously you're not signing your name to that work of art. So it takes a very special kind of person to be able to do that. And Paul's definitely one of those people. And everyone knew how talented he was when we were out here. So when I started Dieu Donne and it was up and going, and Paul was deciding what to do, I said, "Paul, would you like to come out?" And even though lithography was more of his field of expertise, you might say, it's very easy to teach Paul a few things, and then he's on his way. So he has worked with hundreds and hundreds of artists. And he, as I said, he's kind of a perfect collaborator. He knows just what to do when. SL: And you mentioned Ruth, too. Could you talk a little bit-I know that Dieu Donne and Pace have worked on projects together. Can you talk a 01:42:00 little bit about that relationship? SG: Sure. Well, Joe actually was, Joe Wilfer came out. And he was the director of Skowhegan, which is a painting residency program. And then when he stopped doing that, he wanted to get back into working with artists in some kind of collaborative way. And so Joe and I talked about him working at Dieu Donne. Not as an employee, but as a kind of co-collaborator on certain projects. And so that's how we got started, and that was great. And then Joe eventually took those collaborations and worked directly with Dick Solomon of Pace. And Dieu Donne continued, we continued on ours. And then eventually Ruth came out and started working with Joe. She was Joe's protegee. And she's multitalented in printing as well as papermaking or whatever, all of the above. You know, so she was great. And then when Joe passed away, she was really the natural person to follow in his lead and become the leader for those particular kinds of collaborations. 1:17:09 But then over the years, because we all came from the same place and had lots of mutual friends, and I keep on going back to the sandbox. 01:43:00 We're pretty good about playing together in a collaborative way. And Dick Solomon, very smart guy who's head of Pace Prints, I think he always recognized that we work really well together. And so at various times, Dick would be the publisher. The work would be done at Dieu Donne but with Pace people. Which would include Joe or Ruth. So different projects, whether it's with Chuck or Donald Baechler or other artists would either be at Dieu Donne in a combination of people from both organizations. I would say most of the work, not. But certainly, a lot of crossover. And various people that have worked at Dieu Donne have gone on to work at Pace in different capacities. One of our wonderful collaborators is now the head of Pace Prints. And she was in a, actually, she helped me out with some William Kentridge projects. You know, she was the person in the rubber boots and the apron. Now she's the sophisticated salesperson at 01:44:00 Pace Prints. So it's very organic process. SL: Mm hmm. That makes sense. Can you talk a little bit about your teaching? Because I know you've taught papermaking at the New School and Rutgers and elsewhere. Can you talk a little bit about those experiences and how you teach paper? Papermaking? 1:19:08 SG: Well, yeah, gosh. Well, it's very natural to use papermaking as an educational tool in so many different ways. I'll first say that initially when I started Dieu Donne, I was thinking about professional artists. I wasn't thinking about teaching, per se. And then this really wonderful English woman came in who's an artist herself. But she taught kindergarten to American kids. And she said, "You know, I'd love to bring my kindergarten class here." And I just was horrified at the thought of it. (SL laughs) Mainly because of how dangerous the equipment can be, and just keeping track of 01:45:00 little kids in that way. You know, so I was very discouraging. And she was very charming and she had this great English accent. So I said, "Okay, bring them over." And of course they were great. And they were natural at it. And they were so engaged that there wasn't any problem with kids acting up or whatever. They were perfect. And I thought hmm, this is pretty cool. So then when the New School came to us and said, "Would you teach this, and can you teach it at your shop? Because obviously we're not going to set up a papermaking studio." We said, that's fine. And we established, actually, one of the first university curriculums for basic papermaking. And that's always fun, too. And I have taught in, I've taught kids and every age group, it seems like. And it's great. It's very basic. I have to say the thing that I-and you know, I always enjoy. And I try and bring some of the great lessons that I learned from Walter to my teaching. Which is if I have a semester-long 01:46:00 class, it's not a workshop or whatever, then I do try and get them to write research papers on some aspect. Because I think it's just a great exercise. And I also try and get students to present their work as an oral exam. Not just a critique, but actually try and speak eloquently and clearly about their work. Because I would say more times than not, I think that, and this is probably natural, that visual artists do not communicate in words as well. And it's always helpful when they do. Certainly William Kentridge is a case in point. Actually Chuck Close, I remember going to his lectures when I first knew him, when he was in his thirties, and I was in my twenties, I guess, I don't know. And he was really pretty stiff. And they were kind of intellectual, in a way. And then, so many things happened like pre his health issues versus after his health issues. There's a real divide there in all aspects of his life and art making. And one of the things that I've really noticed is he just started talking about his work in 01:47:00 a much more natural way. And now you can go online and hear these things, of course. But talking about his grandmother and how important her crocheting or I can't remember, her knitting, whatever it was, that how important it was to his seeing the world the way he does. And I think that's what's so real. 1:22:48 William Kentridge is another person who, well, he's kind of brilliant. Go online. Watch his movies. They really are just, oh my God. But he, I remember going to one lecture. And he was explaining, he was talking about how he's very interested in when humans can identify something and when they're not able to identify something, how that happens. And so because he also makes movies, he draws them, what he did is he said-and he's also taught children and he's taught printmaking classes, all kinds of things. So he started explaining it and then all of a sudden he pulls up on the screen this movie. And he said, "For example," and you just see his hands doing this, and he's 01:48:00 talking. And the hands are tearing up black construction paper. And he said, you know, if you tear up a bunch of construction paper for kids, and they love to tear up paper, anyway. (SL laughs) And they said now, I can't draw. Everyone said, I can't draw. So he said, "Don't worry about it. Tear up this paper." They all tear it up. "And then move it around until you find something." And then you watch his hands on the screen and he's moving around these black pieces of construction paper. Then all of a sudden you see a black cat that's arched up with the tail and stuff. And you go, oh my gosh! And he says, "That's what I'm interested in, is when it goes from being just some black pieces of paper to something you recognize." And then he showed how with these same sheets of paper, and his hands are just moving them around, how you go from you see a horse and it's walking, and then a horse and it's running. And then a horse and it's galloping, really 01:49:00 galloping. And then all of a sudden, you can't recognize it anymore as a horse. It's gone. And so people like that, who, because it's always better to show, rather than tell. But you can show through words. Anyway, I'm going on and on, way too much. But I do try and help students understand that it's very important to communicate in a number of different ways. But the thing that I'm most interested, in, of course, is collaboration. I really, it's playing. And I think I mentioned before, and didn't bring any examples of this. But right now I'm working with a Danish artist who has lived in India for 18 years. and she helped organize a Tagore centennial celebration, the poet Tagore. And he's kind of the Shakespeare of India. So the poem that we're working with has to do with the wordplay, which is Kerala. And all art, really, is play. And actually to go back and quote, I didn't know 01:50:00 this was Picasso, but then someone said that Picasso said that. That we're born artists, and then we're taught not to be. And so much problem solving to come around full circle is really just play. It's just playing and playing and playing until oops, there it is. That's the right way, that's the solution, that's the one that will work for this particular problem. 1:26:10 So the work that I'm doing right now are making some watermarks of Kama Sutra images in watermark to this poem. SL: Oh, that sounds really interesting. SG: It is. It's fun. And we're using, they're called jali patterns, which are, they're the intricate stone patterns, beautiful patterns, that you see all over India. And they're used for railings. But they're also used not for shutters, but for kind of screens that cover windows. And it's traditionally women were not supposed to be seen. So they're behind, they're up on a balcony looking through these beautiful jali patterns. 01:51:00 But they're also for air circulation, because then you have privacy, but at the same time you have, the buildings are open so that the air is circulating. So we're having jali patterns that cover the Kama Sutra watermarks. And then it's like oh, that's what's going on behind those jali-(laughter) But actually, it's really tied into this amazing poem that, you know, anyway. SL: Well so actually that brings up something that I wanted to ask you. How do you find people to collaborate with? Like how did you find this artist? 1:27:28 SG: It's more like how do I, I mean, right now, it's like looking out at an airport landing field. There's so many projects. You can see the airplane and then you can see the lights, and then you see this little dim light behind. That's how many projects I have lined up right now. And it's just meeting interesting people. And, oh, okay. The latest example, and really, when I say there's so many projects lined up, is Andrea Dezso, 01:52:00 D-e-z-s-o. She's Transylvanian. You can go online and look her up. God, she's brilliant! I was interested in tunnel books. And another friend of mine who I met here who's a book artist, oh, I could go on and on about him. Anyway, he organized a book conference in Massachusetts, near Amherst, near all the book people that are out there. And he said, "Do you want to take one of the classes?" And I said, yeah. And there are all these bookbinding, blah, blah, blah. But I've been curious about tunnel books for a long time. And he said, "Oh, Andrea's teaching tunnel books." Well, I kind of had an idea. And you know, you always had assumptions. I had an idea of what it was all about. And then I took her class. And she's just a genius! She's just brilliant. Like so brilliant, and so wonderful. And she has a Transylvanian accent that's so fascinating! (laughs) So the whole combination. So I learned this little bit about her. Then I got really curious. And then I asked her. And then she said, oh, well go on line, you can see some of the big projects that she's, because 01:53:00 she's done all this work for the New York City subway system. They have Artists in the Subways. So she's done stuff on huge scales. And by every turn, it's like, wow, this is fascinating! And I've bought a couple of copies of the book that she, newest version of Grimm's Fairy Tales that she illustrated. That are kind of like cutouts. She just has this Transylvanian imagination that is so wonderful. So I can't wait to start on a project with her. You know, you get excited. But that also happens with poets, too. Oh, let me show you real quick. So I also brought this, just because I happen to have it handy. So this is, I can't remember if I talked about him or not, but Mark Strand? 1:30:06 SL: You did talk about Mark Strand. SG: Okay. This is the poet laureate of the United States. If you go online, probably the most handsome poet that ever walked the planet, really. I shouldn't say that. But everyone knows. (SL laughs) And graceful. Not only just physically handsome and charming, but just this 01:54:00 grace. I don't think I've ever met anyone with this kind of grace. So this is a drawing that he actually gave me that we then photographed and then made into a plate. And this is the handmade paper. And so what happened is, God this one is really-anyway, the first time I worked with him, maybe I mentioned this, is that I was working with a Catalan artist, Frederic Amat and Robert Wilson, the performance artist. They were the two artists. And then we were talking about okay, so whose poetry do we want to work with? And Frederic knew Mark and said, you know, I really like Mark's stuff, and let me send you some poems. So he sent them over. I said, oh, God, those are perfect. So then we chose one. And he said, "Sue, Mark's teaching at Columbia. You really should meet each other." Did I tell you this whole story already? SL: I know that you talked about, we talked about color theory. SG: Yes. And Joseph Albers. Okay. So I did tell you. So he came down to Dieu Donne. And I thought he was a poet! And I didn't Google him, like an idiot. And then years later, I finally go, "Why do you have such a great 01:55:00 sense of color?" Because he helped do all the color theory books. And Eva Hesse, who's this amazing artist, that was his girlfriend. Anyway, so this is, what we did when he passed away, he and I were working on a new book. He passed away. The idea for a new book. He passed away. And so his partner, Maricruz, and his daughter, Jessica. And I said, "Well, let's do a version of it." So we took the same artist, or poets, excuse me, and we asked them to pick their favorite poem of Mark's and then write something about it. So we had a bunch of samples of what he did to make collages. So when he would come in to work with me, he would just play like a kid with these colors. And then he would go back and cut them up and make them into collages. So each book has a completely different sample, rather. SL: Oh, interesting. How many did you make? 1:32:30 SG: There are fifty in the edition. SL: Okay. SG: And again, I can't 01:56:00 help myself, using translucent and-although this is abaca and this is cotton. And you know, it was great! This is a Nobel laureate. These are all kind of amazing writers and poets. SL: Actually, could you read some of them? They're pretty famous. SG: Okay. Joseph Brodsky. Louise Gluck, Jorie Graham, William Merwin, Vijay, I'm really bad at names. How would you say his last name? He's a really sweet guy, too. SL: I'm not sure. But Seshadri? SG: That sounds right. He's very sweet. Oh, if this ever comes out. Charles Simac, Derek Walcott, Rosanna Warren, and Charles Wright. And they, I'm not the only one on the planet who loved Mark, and loves him. They all, I mean, it's like this guy, everyone loved this man. So everyone was delighted to participate in some way. And we had to kind of, we couldn't get it, because it's just complicated trying to get everybody to do 01:57:00 everything. So those are the artists. And then, Mark drew as well. So these are from, I went through a whole box of drawings that he had done, very often landscapes in Nova Scotia. And pulled together the ones that I felt kind of came together as a group. And then, so these different poets would pick out their favorite of Mark's. And then they would respond to the poem. SL: That's lovely. SG: It was his response. And some of them are so touching that, that's the other part. When you're working on books, I don't know how other people talk about this. But there's always, in any kind of collaboration, there are points where you just are pulling your hair out, going nuts, and swearing at this person or that person or whatever. But I find, not just the art, but more the text. Usually I'm working with poetry. I can go back to the poetry as like this grounding cornerstone. And it always calms me down. And I remember yes, this is why I'm working as hard as I am, because this is really wonderful. 01:58:00 So it's great to be able to do that. And then you can see these. It's similar. I'm afraid I've gotten stuck in my formula. Not exactly, but it's a formula that-- SL: And as you're turning the pages here, the images are on the transparent paper-- SG: Mm hmm. SL: --and you can see the words kind of poking through. 1:35:20 SG: Coming through, right. And then you can also see, it's transparent enough-not transparent, but translucent enough that you can still kind of get a sense of them. And I think it also, this whole sense of space and horizon. Mark's poetry, and he as a person himself was like that. and that's part of his grace, I think. There was always so much space. You were never crowded in. You were never crowded in by ego. You were never crowded in by nervous energy or something that would take away from the openness that you could contribute to whatever it was. And that's what his poems are about. Yeah, it was really, this again, this was a very different kind of project for me. But 01:59:00 all the poets were just lovely, lovely. SL: And how did you find the poets to contribute? SG: Which ones? SL: Yes. SG: Well, Mark had mentioned to me certain poems that he was very interested in and the poets. And then also, Maricruz and Jessica also were familiar with what he was thinking about at this, and so we were able to pool our notes and then Maricruz in particular was great about contacting everyone in the publishers. It was kind of a nightmare to do all that. And we don't have all the signatures, because Joseph Brodsky passed away. And William Merwin is not well, and he's blind. So, yeah, but we got as many as we could. SL: That's great. 1:37:26 SG: Yeah. So that's that. It's pretty simple, but it's a very gratifying project. SL: So, Sue, you told me last time I think off the recording that you founded Dieu Donne, and then you eventually kind of stepped back from your role, your initial role. And I know 02:00:00 you were, and still are, on the board of directors. Can you talk a little bit about how your role there changed? And then what you kind of pursued as you stepped back from that organization? SG: Sure. Well, first I cofounded it with my ex-husband, Bruce Weinberg. And then when we split up, that's when I asked Paul to come out. And then Paul and I were busy trying to spread the word of hand papermaking for quite a while. And then after that, by 1987, I was really, I was married by then, remarried. And I'd had my first child. [phone interruption] (laughs) Sorry about that. I hope that doesn't-God! SL: We can edit that out. SG: How bizarre. Anyway. SL: What time is it? SG: Four thirteen. So I'll make this really quick. (laughs) I don't know what that was about. Yeah, I didn't mean to, every once in a while this thing turns on. It does come in handy sometimes. But anyway, so, okay, so then I had my first kid. And I realized 02:01:00 this is too complicated. So then, and another thing was going on. By 1987, because I had founded it as a for-profit. And we were actually to get grants, even though we were for profit to do all kinds of things. And we really needed that research income. Because we were doing a lot of things that hadn't been done before, to be honest. So by 1987, the tax laws had changed. All kinds of things had changed. And I realized that we really needed to have a not for profit status so that we could get status for various-our educational program was up and running. All kinds of things were happening. And I needed to be able to focus on my family. So I brought in our first executive director, changed the status to not for profit. And that's when I changed it to two corporations. One is Dieu Donne Press, and one is Dieu Donne Paper Mill. But I still stayed involved with Dieu Donne Paper Mill, but in a much more passive way. And then-so what happened 02:02:00 next? Okay. One executive director, then another one. Things were still growing organically. And then by the time we got to, what year was that? fifteen years later. Okay, yeah, I guess about 1990. Really, it had grown quite a bit. We had done another move. And I did get more involved. It really depended on where my kids were at that point. SL: Sure. 1:40:52 SG: And I was still a little, not as much as I am now, but I was still publishing books, too. And then, by the time my kids were older, I was able to really reengage again. Both definitely in the book projects. But now, more recently, in helping Dieu Donne with our next growth spurt. Which, oh my God. How many more of these? (laughs) This will be my last one. But we've gone from one studio to three studios. So we really do have pretty defined programs in different ways. And I can't 02:03:00 remember if I mentioned this or not, but a number of weeks ago, when we had a Brooklyn crawl, and we went to, as part of the IPCNY exhibition, we had events. And we went to Pace, to their studio, that Ruth has just-well anyway, whatever. Anyway, so we went to Pace, and we saw what Ruth has been doing, and then we went to Dieu Donne. And just kind of going, I don't know, there was something about going to the two places, boom, boom, in that context. Pace, you know, they've done just unbelievable work with incredible artists, and continue to do so. And will continue to do so. But it really was a very simple kind of clear focus of making the art, these kind of collaborations. Whereas Dieu Donne has morphed, you know, so that simple class with the kindergarten students has become this whole educational program with lots of funding. And we have residencies where we get funding to allow artists to come in and work. We have publishing 02:04:00 that's closer to Pace, so that we initiate that kind of art making. And then we have a community studio where we provide instruction and some support help for artists to come in and make their own work. We have our own gallery. We have, it's like (makes frustrated noise) it's almost, that's when all of a sudden I realized oh my gosh, we have these institutional type programs. And so we are in the next stage, and I'm working on the new strategic plan for the next few years to fulfill the potential of-it's really the physicality of those three studios, making sure that we have the right people to conduct all the programs. SL: And where are the three studios? 1:43:35 SG: They're all together at Brooklyn Navy Yard. SL: Okay. And what is it like for you to see this thing that you started in 1976 turn 02:05:00 into this large organization with all this programming? SG: Well, at least ten years ago I thought oh, this is really wonderful. You know, all these things that it's grown into. Right now I kind of feel like fine, great, go grow. (laughs) Keep on growing. Do whatever you want to do. I just want to get back to my book projects. Yeah, no, of course, I'm very pleased. It's great. And it's been fun. It's been this amazing thing. I didn't quite realize this at first, but at a certain point I realized it, and then now I feel there is some real truth to it, that it picked me, I didn't pick it. And perhaps the fact that I come from a paper valley in Wisconsin, and that I come from Wisconsin. I don't know. It's like, okay, that one, that one will work hard to develop this craft into an art form. Because it's certainly not a job; it's a calling. SL: And what about your press? You said you have a lot 02:06:00 of projects in the works-- SG: Mm hmm. SL: --and things that you're very interested in getting to. Are you, how many books a year are you doing? Because you said that they're quite time-intensive. 1:45:25 SG: Yes, they are. Let's see. Right now I have, well, three that are in different stages of completion. And one that is just starting to get, you know, come together as an idea. Yeah. And you know, it's very organic. It's not like I say, well, I want to do X number of books a year, blah, blah, blah. SL: Sure. SG: And I can see all of that changing in other ways. For example, one of the things after doing these books for a little while, it's a limited audience, in a sense, or limited collectors and limited audience. Because people usually like to look at visual work on the wall, and they usually like to hold a book in their lap. And this is so rarified, you have to go to a special collections. And so that's kind of annoying in a certain way. And so I might try and rethink that model in some 02:07:00 way. Although I do love them. I really do. So, we'll see. Or I might want to take, think of designing one so that there could be kind of a trade edition, or a commercial edition that could come out of it. SL: Oh, sure. SG: And that, you have to think of that ahead of time. So I think I'd like to do something like that. Um, yeah. SL: And I'm curious with all of your work over the years, have any of your family members kind of become interested in this? Have you worked with them on any projects? 1:47:16 SG: Um, well, people usually run away from me. (laughter) Because they know it's like here she comes, whether it's old friends or whatever. Oh, you-well, right now, my middle son, who runs a gallery in Brooklyn, is helping to 02:08:00 do, install and de-install some of the gallery exhibitions. And well and actually, that was also an organic process where-anyway, so I kind of pulled him in, and I pull him in periodically. My youngest son is an architect and he's doing the drawings for, or redoing the gallery and the lighting and stuff like that. SL: Okay. SG: So, yeah. So they kind of, (laughing) that's funny that they run the other direction. SL: But they're involved in different ways. SG: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. SL: What about, as we're looking to wrap things up, do you have any final thoughts in general? Or specifically about how the UW influenced you? SG: Oh, it defined my career. There's no question about that. And the only thing I can say is that when you have a good thing going, don't pull the funds out. The reason why, you know, there are different phases at different times, certainly. I don't know what it's like now. But the art department, especially the printmaking department, was just on fire. And you usually have that 02:09:00 happen because you have teachers who are on fire. So if you have one, one will serve to attract another. And the only thing I could recommend to a university is make sure you recognize when you have someone like that, that you really support them, and that you help them bring more people. And then give them as much freedom and support as possible. Because they'll attract the great graduate students. I mean, it's simple. It's really simple. So, yeah. Because I do think, noticing friends of mine in particular who really have stayed in academia, that you know, there's all the bureaucracy of academia. And it can small down a big person. A big spirit. And you don't want that to happen. Yeah. I'm thinking of one friend who's teaching at the University of the Arts right now. And she's just such a spitfire. Boy, she's bringing in this energy. And all the students are coming. It's like (makes 02:10:00 sucking noise) they're just going right to her. So it's the people. Always. SL: Mm hmm. Is there anything that you'd like to add? SG: No. (laughs) SL: Okay. Well, thank you very much. SG: Thank you very much. 1:50:26 End of Second Interview Session End of Oral History # Sue