00:00:00Narrator: James HilbInterviewer: Skye DoneyVideographer: William TishlerDate: 8
March 2019Transcribed: Skye DoneyTotal Time: 1 hour, 16 minutesEditing: Kyle
Jenkins, Greg Konop
James Hilb biography:Jim Hilb graduated with a BA-History and Economics from
UW-Madison in 1968 having had George L. Mosse as his educational advisor. He
furthered with an MBA-Marketing and Economics from the University of
Cincinnati's Carl H. Lindner School of Business in 1972, and recently completed
studies in Chinese Mandarin for Business-Miami University (Ohio) 2013-2014,
Farmer School of Business. Jim has enjoyed a successful business career based in
Cincinnati, Ohio, as an owner and team participant of multiple businesses
specializing in fashion accessories, sports marketing and promotional products.
He has served on several boards and shares a passion for the Mosse Program in
which he has been recently involved and deeply committed. In 2019, Jim attended
the George L. Mosse 100th Anniversary Birthday Conference in Berlin, Germany.
Doney: This is Friday, March 8th, 2019, and we are in the DCS Studio,
7427 at 21 North Park Street interviewing James Hilb. Well, we're just going to
jump into the very beginning, which is when and where were you born? And what
kind of milieu were you born in? What was your, what were your early days like?
Hilb: Well, I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio. I was the son of first-generation
German immigrants from Germany. My father was born in a little town called
Göppingen, which is just east of Stuttgart. And my mother was born in a little
village that's claim to fame was a panzer battle in World War II. A little
village called Heßdorf, which is approximately one hour north of Würzburg,
Germany, in Franconia, I believe it is.
And my parents recognized early on, or they were dating at the time of the
ascension of Adolf Hitler to power in 1933. And my mother's family decided that
they would immigrate, or emigrate to the United States from Germany, in
approximately 1935, 1936. Their family settled in New York, came through Ellis
Island, ultimately settled in Cincinnati, Ohio. And a year after they arrived in
Cincinnati, they funded my father and his two sisters and one of their husbands
to, and mother to come to Cincinnati as well.
They arrived at 1937. My parents were married in 1937 in Cincinnati. They were
born as Orthodox Jews in their various communities. My father was the founder of
an Orthodox Jewish synagogue in Cincinnati. And ultimately, as I grew up in that
milieu, I, I recognized very early that Orthodox Judaism, while I was very
proud of my Judaism and its heritage, I sort of rebelled against that because I
am a Reformed Jew. After my bar mitzvah, I dropped out of the Sunday School and
started attending a reform congregation in Cincinnati, the Isaac M. Wise Temple,
where a lot of my friends and co-conspirators, so to speak, hung out.
So had a very good childhood. My parents took care of me very well. My parents
were all gainfully employed. And I grew up in a rather normal, middle-class
Jewish situation during my growing years.
00:03:00
Doney: Great. Could you talk about any family members or teachers who encouraged
you in your early life. What made you decide to go to university? Which
universities were in the cards?
Hilb: Well, neither of my parents were educated beyond, actually my mother did
not even go get a high school education. My father graduated high school,
commonly known in Germany as Gymnasium, in the town of Göppingen. And both my
parents were street smart. Both my father was very successful in business in
Cincinnati for many, many years until his death in 1990.
And I attended Walnut Hills High School in Cincinnati, which at that time was
the only college preparatory school in Cincinnati, you had to take exams in
order to get into it, rather than the other public high schools around the city.
So I had a very, very good upbringing as far as education was concerned, I
believe. I was always interested in history. Science was not my forté. I freely
admit that.
And I was always interested in history, from certainly I was history and then
read a lot about Nazism and fascism and certainly Bolshevism before that and
Russia and so on. And when I began looking for colleges, I had heard about the
History Department at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and a very good friend
of our family was a professor of history at Rice University in Houston, Texas,
who was also born in Germany and his mother grew up as a friend of my mother in Germany.
And when he found out I was interested in the University of Wisconsin, he said,
"if you go and decide to go, you need to make sure you take classes from George
Mosse." He knew George Mosse, not well, but he heard of George's reputation. And
the areas of German history and Nazism and the Holocaust, especially eugenics
and some of the topics that he was very famous for, for teaching. He also, his
best friend was another professor, European history at UW-Madison Ted [Theodore]
Hamerow. He also was friendly with Michael B. Petrovich, who was a professor of
Russian history. All of whose courses I took, not as many as George Mosse.
George Mosse ended up being my advisor while I was here at UW. And for that,
I'm, I'm very, very grateful.
So it just sort of migrated to Madison. I did not want to go to local colleges
in and around Cincinnati or in the state of Ohio. I applied to all colleges
00:06:00outside of the state of Ohio. And when it came down to a choice, I selected
UW-Madison, which was the right decision for me. Very productive four years. And
a tumultuous time as well as we all know.
Doney: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that. So you entered as a freshman
in what year?
Hilb: I entered as a freshman and September of 1964.
Doney: And then you would have graduated in May of [19]68?
Hilb: That is correct.
Doney: Yeah. It's a very, very interesting time. Did you see coming into the
university a connection between politics and history?
Hilb: Right away I saw a connection. There was always the thought that the three
most liberal universities and the universities in the United States at that time
known for anti-war protests, especially as the Vietnam War became more and more
advanced. There was Columbia University, University of California, Berkeley, and
UW-Madison. Those are, those are the big three back in those days. And certainly
I have a lot of photographs from those days, films from those days, that I've,
that I've kept in my archives at home.
It was a very tumultuous time, not only for the country, but certainly here at
UW-Madison it was very tumultuous as all of us well know. I recall especially my
senior year, it was the spring of 1968, this was after the Dow Chemical
situation back in October, which I'm sure we'll get to talk about a little bit.
But in the spring, there was some antiwar protests going on and they became more
and more advanced and began to get national coverage from, from the national
media in those days. And there was a day, I believe it was in March of 1968,
that Bascom Hill was filled with crosses representing the deaths of American
soldiers during the Vietnam War and some of the other conflicts in the far East
Asia. And it was just a rainy, miserable day. And there was a also, I have a
picture of a beagle hound soaking wet lying under the entrance to Bascom Hall,
under the sifting and winnowing plaque. That sort of summed up the entire
feeling of that time it was that day more than anything else, probably was, was,
was really a watershed for a lot of what was going on at that time, which
culminated around that time in, of course, with some of the events that came on
with the National Guard after I graduated in [19]68, but culminating in the
bombing of Sterling Hall in [August 24] 1970.
So it was a tumultuous time, an interesting time and certainly the, the, the
interaction between the university administration, the City of Madison, the
00:09:00University Police, all of that factored in to the experience of being, being
here in Madison during that time.
Doney: Yeah. Did you get involved in student activism?
Hilb: Yes, I did. I was, I was involved in some of the protests. I was also
involved in the students for McCarthy for president campaign in 1968, I took
Peter Jennings (1938-2005), the late Peter Jennings who was with ABC News at the
time. I drove him around Madison during [19]67 and [19]68 when the national
media was here covering that.
As far as activism is concerned, yes, I participated in some of the protest
movement. I just tried to stay away from the violence. I just abhorred violence.
So I wasn't involved in the violent element of it, thank goodness, but was
involved certainly, to the degree that I that I could.
Doney: Yeah, you talked a little bit about the mood of the campus in the spring
of [19]68. How did the, sort of the feel of the campus change over the course of
those four years? Or did you note any, just a general mood shift among the among
the students between [19]64- [19]68?
Hilb: I think there was a general mood shift. There certainly was the, the
element of the students who were anti-war, the liberal students. And certainly
there were the students on and administration officials and city and state
officials who were on the other end of the spectrum.
As the generation shift, if you will, amongst the Board of Regents, became more
conservative. If I can use that word. That changed and they were more
restrictive to what was going on. Certainly some of the people involved in the
university administration, I'm trying to recall some of the names like Robben
Fleming (1916-2010), I believe was chancellor at that time, William [Hamilton]
Sewell (1909-2001).
Robben Fleming, I believe succeeded Fred Harvey Harrington (1912-1995). If I'm
not mistaken, I hope I have that right. Dean Leon Epstein (1919-2006) from the
political science department. These are all people that I had come in contact
with in some cases as professors in some of the classes that I took. And you
could sense that there was a rift not only with, with the position of the war
in Vietnam, but the position that if I can use the words the traditional
conservatives and the traditional liberals and some of the middle of the roaders.
You definitely could sense that there was very politicized back then. There were
two student newspapers, The Daily Cardinal, and then I honestly don't recall the
name of the other car-, the other newspaper that was sort of the more
conservative or more right-wing newspaper that came up around that time [The
00:12:00Badger Herald (1969)]. But overall, I think much of the administration of the
university was more moderate-leaning or more liberal-leaning. Whereas the Board
of Regents and some of the state administrators were more right-leaning if I
could use that term. And there was always a little bit of a chasm that you could
almost sense and feel. If you stood up the top of Bascom Hall and looked down
State Street to the, to the capital. There was definitely a chasm that began to
develop, I'm sure, in [19]64, [19]65 and then just progressed with more of a
division after that.
Doney: Before we talk about Mosse, I want to talk about some of the other
professors you took classes with.
Hilb: Okay.
Doney: I don't particular order if there is, if there are any moments from
non-Mosse classes that sort of stand out, or experiences with the department, we
could go into some of those.
Hilb: Well I certainly remember not within detail necessarily, but I certainly
remember classes that I took from Michael Petrovich in Russian history. I
believe it was a couple of courses of Michael Petrovich I took in Russian
history. Ted Hamerow in European history, another European history professor
here at UW. I took classes from Harvey Goldberg, the socialist Harvey Goldberg,
took a class from him, which certainly was, was very, very interested and very,
very interesting. On the American history side, Norman Risjord (b. 1931), took a
number of American history classes from Norman Risjord, Merle Curti, David
Cronon. In poli sci, I said Dean Leon, who became Dean Leon Epstein. The famous
[John Thomas] Salter (1898-1973) political science course, Salter under the
stars, everybody, many people took that course too.
So, and art history, too. I took a number of art history courses. James Watrous
(1908-1999), who was head of the Art History Department at that time, I took a
couple of art history courses from, from, from James Watrous.
Notice I don't mentioned some of the professors from the science area. Science
was not my forté and I freely admit that. So that was rather forgettable.
Doney: Sure.
Hilb: I did take French for a couple of years, my freshman and sophomore years.
And but from the History Department, those are some of the names that that I
that I certainly remember and recollect and thoroughly enjoyed being part of the
History Department and all that went with that.
Doney: Did you have any sense of competition for students among the professors
00:15:00or anything like that?
Hilb: Not not that I recall.
Doney: Sometimes people talk about perhaps Goldberg versus Mosse. And I wonder
if you have any sense of was there a competition between the two of them for students?
Hilb: I'm sure there was. I didn't either sense it or didn't pay attention to it
or maybe was too naïve to think about it. But I'm sure that existed to me
because both of both of those men, Harvey Goldberg and George Mosse were very,
very prominent figures, very outspoken individuals within their expertise areas
and so on. So I'm sure there were, there was competition. Maybe because I was
too young and naïve as I said, maybe I just didn't recognize it or pay
attention to it, but. But I didn't, then one other one that I think I should
mention was William Appleman Williams (1921-1990), in the American History
Department, although he was not here, I think he left the year prior to my
beginning my studies at UW.
But certainly I'd read some books from William Appleman Williams, and he went
out, I believe you went out to the University of Oregon or somewhere like that
and what have you, and I was sorry that I didn't ever, ever a chance to take one
of his courses and so on. So yeah.
Doney: So you're taking all of these different history courses, but you settle
on Mosse as your advisor.
Hilb: Right.
Doney: Was there something about European history, a question that you wanted to
answer. Or was there anything in particular that drew you to Mosse's approach to
European history?
Hilb: Well, I think what, what drew me to Mosse was partially the dynamism of
his character, or the dynamism of his presentations. The subject matter. Being a
child of German immigrants. I think I was naturally drawn to that because, you
know, growing up my parents certainly acknowledged that, you know, they were
born in Germany. They were very proud of Germany, but yet they didn't discuss it
very much in the home. They wanted us to be Americans first. They wanted to be
Americans first. My mother continued to speak a little bit a German around the house.
My father avoided speaking German at all costs. He wanted to push himself away
from Germany as much as possible and he wanted his children to be the same way.
So when he passed away, there was not a lot of records, shall we say, of family
history and so on and so forth. We had given him for one of his birthdays, when
he was ill the last four or five years of his life, a book on family trees and
so on. Because we felt like we really had to know as much as possible about our
00:18:00family and our roots and so on and so forth. And we found that book after my
father had passed away and he had signed his name, put the name of the family on
there, but he'd never filled anything out. I think he just didn't want to do it.
So that's, that's become somewhat of a passion of mine. I have a long way to go
yet, but I've been working on that and hope to get that completed one of these days.
Doney: Was it different with your mother? Would she talk more about Germany, if
she was using German in the home?
Hilb: She was told my father, I think, instructed her if I can use that term to
not really talk about it that much because he wanted, as I said, he wanted his
children, they wanted their children to be as American as possible. And while
they did talk about it, they certainly talked about their family, some of their
family members. They, they avoided talking about what went on as they were
growing up.
My father was born in 1906. My mother was born in 1915. And certainly there was
a lot in that area toward the end of World War I, through World War I, through
the Weimar development in Germany and so on. That, that I just didn't know that
much about. So I think that is what drew me to the Mosse courses, more than just
the factual elements of what went on, but certainly the, you know, the
historical part of it, the reasons for why things developed, and different
viewpoints developed, you know, why Hitler was this way and Mussolini was
another way and in their view toward Fascism and National Socialism.
So that, that became up to me and I think that certainly drew me back in 1964 to
just galvanizing toward, toward Mosse after I first met him.
Doney: So, let's go into that, so which, do you recall which courses you took
with Mosse? And then--
Hilb: Boy that's a good one--
Doney: Well, 120.
Hilb: Well, History 120, which that was the introductory course, the European
cultural history. So still, it, still is, B10 Commerce, the famous B10 Commerce.
And I believe I took, I'm guessing at this point four or five other courses from
Professor Mosse. Certainly the introductory course, the courses on Nazism, his
courses on the Holocaust. There. I don't recall taking the courses on sexuality
and so on. That was sort of a time I know that it existed, but that was not a
time back then that those topics were typically discussed openly. Now as it is
today and even into the seventies and eighties and nineties, as I said up to today.
00:21:00
So I, I took pretty much, as I said, the four or five courses that covered
European history from you know, age of [Klemens von] Metternich and moving
forward to through World War I to World War II, I believe at that time most of
his courses and into the close of World War II and so on.
Doney: Did that, did those courses help you contextualize your parents and your family?
Hilb: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think it helped me better understand where my parents
came from. The background that they came from. And certainly I tried to do as
much reading as I possibly could just to find out more about what went on. You
know, spurred by the courses that I took from Professor Mosse. But, but
certainly times when I had the opportunity to sit down with them and say, well,
what about this and then what about that particular subject? And, you know, he
would certainly explain, explain his view points and so on. And, you know, not
that he was a radical by any stretch of the imagination, I think probably
liberal would be the best, best term to refer to him. And that at that time
tended to be where where my thoughts gravitated to, you know, politically and
economically, and socially. Yes, I was very, very, very interested in that.
Doney: Yeah, I, it's always tricky talking about liberalism with Mosse because I
think it's the very sort of classical European sense. So the right of the
individual to thrive, and social justice and things like that. But it's not
exactly the U.S. left, it's a little, it's a little more, I would say abstract.
Hilb: Right? Right. Yeah. And a lot of what Professor Mosse talked about was in
the abstract, which certainly encouraged the students who were so inclined to
dig deeper, and find out the meanings of different things. And I think that,
that was one of the strengths of taking his courses and being able to sit down
and chat with him and, and I know there were, I believe, two instances after I
had graduated where he was on either a speaking tour or was a guest lecturer at
the University of Cincinnati where I continue to live. And when he came into
Cincinnati, I made sure that I attended those lectures and had the opportunity
to sit down and chat with him for for a little bit of time under the tight
schedules that he had. So I know, Michael Petrovich also I believe, came to
Cincinnati one time for a lecture at the University of Cincinnati and, you know,
sat down with him as well for a few minutes. But George Mosse was always, always
00:24:00at the pinnacle for me.
Doney: You mentioned that you had a story about when he first met. The first
time you met him?
Hilb: Yeah. It was freshman year. Either late [19]64 or could have been in early
[19]65. There was a speaker coming to the University of Wisconsin by the name of
Henry Kissinger. Henry Kissinger is a distant cousin of our family, of myself,
his his mother's name was Paula Walter Kissinger. My grandmother's name was Lena
Walter. And I'm sure I still have it wrong, but I believe my grandmother and
Henry Kissinger's grandmother, not his mother, but Henry Kissinger's grandmother
was the mother of his mother. So therefore, I believe that made them first
cousins or something like that. So after this lecture, I was excited to see
Henry Kissinger, my parents, especially my father, because it was my father's
side of the family. Had opportunity to meet Henry Kissinger a couple of times
while he was in government service. So here I was a brash young freshman at the
University of Wisconsin. I went to the Henry Kissinger lecture, which I don't
recall where it was. It might have been in the Student Union at that time. I'm
not real sure.
And after the lecture there was a little bit of a cocktail party refreshment
party, if you will. And I went up to Henry Kissinger and introduced myself to
him and said, Dr. Kissinger, I am I'm a relative of yours. My name is Jim Hilb.
My grandmother's maiden name was Walter. Your mother's maiden name was Walter.
And my grandmother and your grandmother, I believe were first cousins or those
to that effect. Well, he looked at me like, "who in the world are you?" And I
sensed that I flubbed the opportunity, which as it turned out, I did.
But certainly thereafter, George Mosse was at that lecture presentation. And he
came over to me and said, Let me talk to you, young man. So I introduced myself,
to him and the rest, as they say, is history.
Interestingly enough, about six months later, my aunt who lived in Cincinnati,
received a letter from Henry Kissinger's mother, saying that her son had been at
the University of Wisconsin. And some young man came up to him who was very
flustered and so on and said that we were related somehow. And I think he
remembered my name, maybe he didn't, but my aunt that the time engaged
periodically and letter exchanges with Henry Kissinger's mother who lived in New
York. And they finally pieced it together that it was me. So that combined with
00:27:00meeting George Mosse at that particular presentation was was a watershed for me
you might say.
Doney: Yeah, well, you did make an impression.
Hilb: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Doney: He remembered. He told his mom about it. Remembered, right?
Hilb: Right. Right, right. Yeah.
Doney: That's great. So I want to talk just a little bit about your relationship
with Mosse and how it developed through the course of your undergrad career. You
were aware that he was an émigré?
Hilb: Yeah.
Doney: Did he talk about being a German Jewish émigré?
Hilb: Yes, he he would he would mention it to me that he was a German Jewish
émigré. Mentioned to me that his family history that they, his family owned a
publishing house in Germany, in Berlin. And it always is, I believe was his
grandfather who started it. Rudolf. Was it Rudolf Mosse (1843-1920) was his
grandfather, I believe? And that his father was Hans Lachmann-Mosse. I believe
Hans Lachmann-Mosse (1885-1944). which was George's middle name: Lachmann. And
he mentioned from time to time, the family, the family business and went into,
you know, why they, you know, they left Germany and had to leave Germany. And
some of the, his brothers and sisters, went to different parts of Europe and the
United States and so on and so forth. So he would share with me to the degree
that there was time, some of the background, information of of his family and
his family history. And as I said, I believe his family owned the largest
Jewish-owned publishing house in Germany until the Nazis forced it to close, I
believe in 1933 or 1934. Although I believe the Nazis did let them exist for
another couple of years after that, to a certain degree, but, but finally, shut
them down.
And interestingly, when we were in Berlin, the first time, which was in 1991 of
the first places I had to go was at the corner of Jerusalemer Straße and
Schützenstraße which was the, the re, the reworked, if you will. Mosse gothic,
neo-gothic building there at the corner which the building is still there and I
believe is it the Mosse Foundation, I believe are some some some part of the
Mosse heritage still has offices in that building. As well as walking down to
Leipziger Straße where the Palais Royale was built, which was built, I believe
by the Mosse family or, or elements of the Mosse family on Leipziger Straße 2,
which is just a gorgeous, gorgeous building. So I have seen the Mosse heritage
00:30:00in Berlin on a couple of occasions. Yes.
Doney: Yeah, that'll be one of the things we do in Berlin is to go look at the
Mosse buildings.
Hilb: Oh, really?
Doney: Yeah, yeah. The Nazis, they allowed the firm to stay open. The, the main
editor, Theodor Wolff, went into exile, was eventually killed [arrested] in
France [died in Germany in 1943]. But they, they bastardized it, they started
putting up pro-Nazi propaganda basically. And they were just trying to lean on
the Tageblatt name to bolster themselves. But yes, yeah. Yeah. It was yeah, it
was Rudolf Mosse exactly. Yeah. He sort of he started very small with just one
newspaper and then had this idea to include advertisements in the newspaper and
it just, it ballooned from there. And one of the, I think one of the interesting
things about the family is that they then started all of these non-profit
organizations and it's a tradition that George himself continued to to believe
in education. So Rudolf and his wife, Emilie had a bunch of homes for children
who were orphans or whose parents couldn't take care of them. And they were
evaluated on things like fitness and energy it was very, very sort of German,
German, very German. George's, sister went to New York, Hilde, and started a
clinic for, a psychology clinic for African Americans in Harlem where she didn't
charge. And then George gave his estate to UW, to start the Mosse Program so
that people would have the same opportunity he had to experience the education
in Jerusalem and in Madison. So it's a, it's a trend. Yes, through the family.
It's really interesting.
Hilb: It's obviously a very cultured family, a very dedicated family. Very aware
of their beginnings and their roots, if you will, and it's proud to see, and I
can honestly say that I'm, I'm very proud that I was able to have him as an
advisor. And you don't spend a lot of time with your advisors. I'm sure if I
would've stayed in academia, that would have been a different story which I,
which I didn't do. But, you know, there's, there's certain people in your lives
as your lives progress that stay with you all the time. And certainly George
Mosse has stayed with me for a long time. And anyone who knows me well knows
that I talk about him periodically, but he's very, very important to me. Very
important to me.
Doney: In his role as advisor, did you write a thesis with him or did he help
you choose courses? What was that relationship like?
Hilb: He, he helped me choose courses. I don't recall writing a thesis for him.
00:33:00We did meet periodically, I'm guessing, you know, once a month or something like
that in his office which was in Bascom Hall, as I recall it the time, and filled
with books and everything as many professors were. And if his door was open and
he wasn't tied up with another appointment with another student or what have
you. We would come in and sit down and he would he would ask me, what about your
family? Where did you what does your family come from? And to the degree that I
knew what little I didn't know about the origins of my family and the particular
areas that they they came with, they came from. He was always very interested in
knowing about it. I think not only for my sake to try to draw information out of
me, but certainly for what he was doing with his classes and his other students
at the same time.
And certainly one of the things that impressed me most about him was the
succinctness of how he spoke. His presentation was very dramatic. And, and, and
also it went beyond just historical facts. And when we were required to take an
exam, obviously these were written exams. Much of that days there weren't, at
least in his courses, there were no multiple choice exams as I recall. And I
would fill 4, 5, and 6 of the famous blue books for the exams. And it was it
was, yes, the facts were important, but it certainly was, you know, what are the
theories behind it and the cultural elements of it, the racist elements of it,
you know, the social, the social elements of it, all the things that he has
become known for and famous for. You knew that you had to do that and you had to
think that way, it was a method of critical thinking. And certainly as, as, as I
continue in my career with its ups and downs like many of us have had.
I think that a lot of the way I think came from examples of what I learned to
think and how I learned to think back then. I think of things like the different
philosophers that he talked about in History 120, you know, the the Immanuel
Kants, and the Friedrich, Friedrich Nietzsches and, and Hegel with his thesis
and antithesis and synthesis. I mean, I, I pretty much use that all the time in
terms of what do you want to do? How are you going to get there? And setting
objectives and goals and things like that. And that became very much part of me
and things like Nietzsche's element of incite the masses, which was certainly
the theme of Adolf Hitler. But, but surprisingly to me at that time.
00:36:00
And the notebook that I've left with you there, there's something in there about
Charles de Gaulle and Charles de Gaulle. I remember him talking about in a
lecture. Charles de Gaulle was a student of, or a disciple, shall I say, of
Friedrich Nietzsche. Because Charles de Gaulle was able to lead people during
World War I in France. But became leader of France because he rose above the
masses in France. While it was still some type of democracy, he rose above the
masses and he was able to incite the crowds if you will, to support him over his
opponents and things like that have stuck out at me since the sixties.
Doney: Yeah, that's, that's great. Well, I want to talk then just a little bit
about life outside the classroom on campus. Are there any individuals or
friends, that stood out from your undergraduate years and--
Hilb: Oh boy, that's a tough one.
Doney: What was your non-academic life like?
Hilb: Well my non-academic life was, I think, pretty full. I was a member of a
social fraternity, which was Zeta Beta Tau. And Professor Mosse had come to our
fraternity during my sophomore year and sat down with us, I believe had dinner
with us. And our, in our eating area and talked to many of the members of the
fraternity at that time. I was a very social person, no doubt about it. I was
always interested in sports. I was involved in some intramurals early on when I
was on our swimming team in high school and fast became known that as good as I
thought I might have been in high school, I wasn't good enough to do division
one swimming, so I did intramural swimming for for my fraternity and so on and I
was involved in the humorology, which I don't know if it even exists again
today. Certainly athletics was always important to me and went to all the
football games, went to the basketball games in the old Camp Randall as opposed
to remodeled Camp Randall, the old Field House, so on and so forth. I had a
very, it was a wonderful time in my life.
It really was, the Vietnam War and all the dissensions that were going on
notwithstanding. You'd try to put that put that aside, and try to enjoy yourself
as much as you can because you'll never get that back no matter what. And that
that's the case. So I think it was very good. It was a very good I've made some
lifelong friends, certainly from my days here. And certainly like, like many,
many people, sometimes you, it's not that you become detached from the
university because anybody who knows me knows that. You know, I bleed badger
Red. Follow the sports very well. I was actually President of the UW Alumni Club
in Cincinnati for about five or six years. And it's, it was a great period of my
00:39:00life. Wish we could bring it back, but we can't.
Doney: I'm sorry to keep going back and forth. But I want to, I wonder if in
those conversations, if Mosse, talked about Vietnam or the different student
protests. If you had any sense of his impression of what was going on in the
campus life?
Hilb: I think he was aware of what was going on in the campus life. I don't
necessarily recall speaking directly with him about it. I sense that he was not
for the Vietnam War. For many reasons. You know, talk it, talk about the
colonialism of the French and early on in Vietnam being occupants, colonialism
in, in Southeast Asia, which was certainly part of his History 120, the
colonialization and the social, socialization, you know, whether it was the
development of Bolshevism or colonialism that the British, British did. Their
belief in colonialism, you know, mostly for trade to expand their economic reach
around the world and so on and so forth. I would have to say, I hope accurately
that I sensed he was not for the Vietnam War or certainly was in support of a
different approach in dealing with North Vietnam versus the North Vietnamese
communists versus the South Vietnamese armies and so on and so forth. Now, of
course in the, in the time we were here and six, I guess [19]64 to [19]66, the
escalation really began and by the time 1968 came around, I was, while concerned
of where I was going to be the following year in 1969, I think most of us were
very much concerned with were we going to have to serve in the military.
Student deferments were being revisited and revised by the Social, the Selective
Service at that time. So I guess toward my senior year, especially the last six
months, even though it was a time of political activism. I think one of us, many
of us had our one foot out the door as to what was going to happen. You know,
were are we going to get called into the army? Were are we going to have to go
to Vietnam? Student deferments were, were pretty much eliminated and the lottery
was on the horizon. Student deferments other than for those going into the
medical profession and who were going on as teachers. Were, were all but
eliminated altogether. So we had to, we had to scurry. We had we had to make plans.
00:42:00
I recall back in those days our graduation was in early June, it wasn't it May
like it is today. And pretty much on the same day that I graduated, I graduated
from UW, I got an acceptance to law school, and I got my Selective Service
notification that I was eligible for the draft. So that all happened within a
day or two of each other. So, you know, made me not forget about UW, but it made
me establish different priorities in my life very quickly at that point. So
those would be some of the thoughts that they had at that time.
Doney: Well, then let's talk then, so you went to law school?
Hilb: No I didn't, I didn't, I did not. I did not go to law school. Like many
students who were concerned about the Vietnam War and I didn't, I was not sure
of whether I wanted to take a risk of having a low number in the lottery and
therefore having a chance of getting drafted or taking a risk on getting a high
number and not having to get drafted. And like many students at the time, I was
off the family payroll at that point. So I had to scurry. So interestingly
enough, I taught school for a year. I taught, I used my major in history to
teach fifth grade social studies in the Cincinnati Public Schools for a year.
And my fiancée at the time who I met here at UW, was in the teaching
profession. She was in the School of Education here in Madison and she was a
year, a year, year and a half behind me. And the days where there were no fax
machines or emails or cell phones. I knew nothing about teaching other than I
could recite a lot of facts about history. So she wrote my lesson plans for me
and mailed them to me in the mail back to Cincinnati. So I taught fifth grade
social studies in the Cincinnati Public Schools, in an inner city school.
And interestingly, I was hired on the spot by what we would call a human
resource director today for Cincinnati Public Schools, whose son was a, I
believe he was in a class behind me at my high school. And she didn't want to
see any young men have any opportunity to be called into the army, into the
draft. So Cincinnati Public Schools at the time, needed male teachers as role
models and she was hiring any male student who had a decent academic record to
teach school. So I taught school in Cincinnati Public Schools for a year. And,
and it was, it was interesting. It was fun.
At the same time. I knew I wanted to get a graduate degree, so I applied to the
00:45:00School of Business at the University of Cincinnati. And I at the same time I was
teaching school. I began my quest for an MBA from the University of Cincinnati,
which I, I succeeded in getting in a combination of night school, day school. So
I got that.
And then from that point on, I, I went into business rather than law school.
Doney: Okay. Let's talk about about that part of your, well, first you have any
anything that stands out from teaching at that time in Cincinnati? From your
classroom experience?
Hilb: Well well, it was it was interesting. It was as I said it was sixth grade,
sixth grade students in an inner city school, many of whom had come from broken
homes or where single parents and so on and so forth. And there was one other
male teacher in the school and a male principal. And the, those two people
helped guide me a lot, you know, being able to weather the storm, so to speak,
on how to work with the students and get on-the-job training, so to speak, as as
we went along. And I think it was, I think it was a very good experience for me.
I mean, it's not something that I regret. Initially, as I said, I did it for a
reason to not have an opportunity to be drafted into the army at that time. But
it was meaningful for me and, you know, I hope I made a difference in some of
those kids' lives during that one year that, that I taught that, I taught
school. Subsequently to that, I was able to get into an army reserve unit based
in Cincinnati and served my active duty for six months and served in the
personnel and finance section of this particular army reserve unit. And at that
point, there was absolutely no reason to believe that we would ever be asked to
be sent overseas to Vietnam, and it turned out that way. So we handled the
personnel and finance areas of our particular army reserve unit. So that's,
that's, that's what I did and a number of my friends ended up being in the unit,
too. And so we had made the best of it as best as we could for the period of
time that we were obligated.
Doney: Was that then a draft to put you in there or that was?
Hilb: No, that was a voluntary enlistment.
Doney: Oh, I see.
Hilb: Yeah. Yeah, the draft. I never did get drafted. My lottery number, which I
was worried about was a very high number. So, you know, in retrospect, I don't
know exactly how high Selective Service was at that time to draft the men into
00:48:00the army.
But there was probably a very, very slim chance of my ever getting drafted, but
I just wasn't willing to take that chance. So teaching in the school helped me
gather my thoughts for a year. And from that point, I said number of my friends
and I enlisted in the, same army reserve unit and we made we made the best of
it, you know, as we, as we could. And, you know, and went about our daily lives
at that point. Yeah. So by then my wife had joined me in Cincinnati and we were
married and all was well in the world.
Doney: So you when you finished the MBA, and you're no longer teaching, what was
what was your first position?
Hilb: I went into a family business, where my father was a partner with another
gentleman in an accessory business in Cincinnati, and stayed in that business
for a number of years and then moved on to another business after that and
continued to be in that similar type of business today. Although specializing in
sports marketing and dealing with a lot of the sports entities, I, I'd taken
some graduate courses in licensing and intellectual property and so on. Couldn't
get the lawyer out of me completely, I guess. And did take some business law
courses at the University of Cincinnati, but continue to be in business today.
Doney: What do you want to be involved in sport marketing?
Hilb: Just that I was a sports nut and just happened to float into some people
asking me, can you do this and can you do that? And just got to be interested in
it, in the company that I work with right now, we do a lot of work for various
sports leagues and sports entities around the country and around the world in
some cases, too, providing them opportunities for licensing and sponsorship in
terms of promotional merchandise and also some strategic planning and so on and
so forth. Yeah. Yeah.
Doney: That's really interesting.
Hilb: Yeah.
Doney: When you met Mosse in Cincinnati, you mentioned a couple times, were you
in the MBA program or you'd already completed that?
Hilb: I believe the chronology. I had already completed my MBA, my MBA program
on most of it had been at night because as I said I graduated in 1968. I started
my MBA, I believe, in 1970 and completed my MBA in 1973-1974. So I believe it
perhaps was in I'm, this is strictly guessing at this point, I think probably in
mid to late 1970s and maybe early [19]80s. That George Mosse came to Cincinnati. Yeah.
00:51:00
Doney: Did you get a chance to talk to him about your teaching experience? And
life choices?
Hilb: Yeah, we chatted about it and, you know, he was very supportive and he
says, you know, life, life takes interesting turns sometimes and so on and so
forth. And, you know, did not spend a lot of time with him, but certainly wanted
to acknowledge that I made the effort to see him and then have the opportunity
to speak with him for a little bit of time, which I did, which was very, very meaningful.
Doney: Yeah. These sort of last set of questions I have is very, are very speculative.
Hilb: Okay?
Doney: What do you think Mosse would make of current politics in the US and in Germany?
Hilb: Oh boy, that's, that's a loaded question.
Doney: What do you think his message would be if he was wrapping up 120 and sort
of riffing on it?
Hilb: Riffing on, gee, 120, that is, I wish I had some time to think about this,
thinking off, I think he would be certainly very disappointed in the political
situation as it exists today around the world. I think he would be probably
pleased that at least up until this point, that the Germans and the relationship
with the EU and the situation with the EU, with the leaders of the EU,
especially with Chancellor Merkel. I think he would be concerned of what, what
would be happening and going into beyond, going into beyond the facts of why,
why Brexit is occurring or may not occur. Who knows at this point? But, you know
what's going on in France, what's going on in Italy, what's going on in Germany?
You know, what's going on in Russia and vis-á-vis their relations with the
other world. I think he would be looking at, and as he always did, you know, is
it, is it cultural? What, what, what are the cultural implications of the
leadership of these particular countries that are in power today. Or the
leadership that is attempting to either usurp power, take power, or be elected
to power depending on the type of governments that are, that are in existence. I
think he would take a steady, steady approach to it as opposed to a, a radical.
Maybe his ideas would be radical, but I don't think he would take a radical
approach for change. Just for the sake of change.
Doney: Sure.
Hilb: You know, try to get, perhaps as many of the thinkers involved in it, get
as many as the political leaders involved in it to get together around, whether
00:54:00it's a round table or a square table or a rectangular table, whatever the choice
would be.
From the psychological nature of it, which was always very important to him. I
think, I think he would be very influential in trying to convince people that
there are certain ways to take care of their individual countries. First, while,
while still thinking in the macro idea of we all have to get together in the
world. Because back then, as I alluded to earlier, communication was basically
by telephone. You know, we and envelopes that would go from department to
department or mail from department intra-university mail and so on. We didn't
have an, and early computers certainly were there. I don't recall how fast or
how slow they were in those days, but certainly I think with the advancements in
technology, which is a big factor in many areas today, things get done a lot
quicker. Sometimes with thought, sometimes with not a lot of thought. And I
think in his orderly way of thinking and approaching those different areas, as I
said earlier, as it applies socially, culturally, morally, politically, Did I
leave anything out, I don't know? But I think he would be he would be at the
forefront. I really think he would. And I think he, in my opinion, I think he
would be very, very proud of his heritage. I think he would be very proud if he
was able to see Germany today, having been to Germany three times now myself.
And the transparency with which the German Parliament, if you will, or the
German ruling leaders approach the transparency of what happened from the rise
of Adolf Hitler, you know, through World War II. And even today, there's a
transparency about it. If, if, anyone and I'm sure you've, you've experienced
this, if you go to Germany and again, being Jewish, you see this and are maybe
are a little bit more keen to it than other people. I think that the
transparency that the German government has toward the Holocaust, and Germany
doesn't call it the Holocaust. They call it in memory of the Jews that were
murdered. Those are the signs all over. There's acknowledgments all over the
country whenever they can, that this is where the Jews were murdered. These were
the concentration camps. These were where they were taken from.
Track 17 in the Grunewald area of Germany, where the people who left for the
00:57:00various concentration camps, that was where they boarded the trains in the
southwestern part of Berlin to go to the concentration camps. I think he would
be very, you know, very aware of that. I think he'd be very proud of what
Germany's doing. There's so many symbols in Germany today, and I guess I should
say, forgive me for, for, you know, riffing into Germany so much. But having
been there and my background, you know, things like two of the German parliament
buildings that sit on either side of the Spree River. One is a convex structure,
flat top, one is a concave structure, flat top, which you may be familiar with.
And the theme of that is that someday Germany will truly be united when those
two buildings come together and they would fit right together. Those, those are
the type of symbols that are all over Germany. And no matter where I have had
the opportunity to be in Germany, I've, I've seen the transparency of it. In
2014, I was asked to come to Germany by the leadership of my father's hometown
of Göppingen. In there is a project called the Stolperstein Project. I don't
know if you're aware of that or not. I'd be happy to share that with you. But
basically, it is a project of, of a, of an artist, German artist [Gunter Demnig]
who was planting gold stones in the pavements in front of the last known
residence of Jews and gypsies and homosexuals before they were shipped off to
concentration camps. And it's called the Stolperstein Project. And we were asked
to go to my, my father's hometown because they were honoring two distant cousins
of mine who I was determined to be one of the closest surviving family members
and they honored them in the town, town of Göppingen. And we were there for
four days. And the government, we were recognized at City Hall and I was asked
to speak a couple of times. There were students at all of these events. And
there were a couple of instances where people would say, Oh Jim, look behind
you, that is their German accent in the Gymnasium. That's where your father
graduated from school.
The Hilb Haus in Göppingen, Germany -- 2014
And we went to another location where the, where the or the stepping stones were
placed. They said Jim, do you recognize that building behind you across the
street and I said it really looks familiar. He said that was the Hilb house.
That's, that's where your father's family lived. And that picture is etched my
mind because I have a picture at home of pictures that my parents brought with
them that is exactly the same picture looking behind my shoulder to that house.
So that, I mean, many people don't want to go back to Germany. And I can't say
01:00:00that I blame them, but not having known as much about what my background was, I
took it upon myself that I've got to find out whether again, whether it was in
my father's hometown or my mother's hometown where the panzer battle was and so
on and so forth and had the opportunity to sit down at that time with a friend
of hers. My mother's, that she grew up with, in that town who was still alive
and in 1999 and we were at at her children's home in this town of Heßdorf. And
we had tea in the afternoon with them and they gave us newspaper after newspaper
of what went on with the Jewish families in that town. I mean, it was a town of
maybe 200 people, a very small town.
And those are the type of experiences that, you know, you cannot replicate one
way or the other. Again, so much symbolism around all of Germany. I mean,
whether it's, you know, my parents home towns or some of the other areas who had
been to and some of the towns we've been to. You know we felt obligated when we
were in Munich. We wanted to go to a concentration camp. So we spent the day at Dachau.
And it was interesting because the symbolism behind it was our hotel was close
to the city center and in Munich. So we went to the city center in Munich and we
went down into the train station and we took a train to Dachau. Can you imagine,
what my wife said to me?, Do you understand we're taking a train to Dachau right
now. And then when we got off the train station, there were buses that provided
transportation for maybe the five-minute ride over to the camp. And it was just,
those are the type of things that I feel very fortunate that I've been able to
experience. Maybe not as many as other people and so on and so forth. But for me
those have been, you know, very meaningful experiences and, you know, I'm, I'm
proud of what Germany's become today. Many people may not agree with that, but I
mean, the recognition, of what's been going on and having taken tours around
Germany and you're spending a lot of time in Berlin and outside of Berlin and so
on and so forth. And recognizing what they've been doing.
And knowing little tidbits of, you know, many people think useless trivia like
the only swastika that is legally allowed to be shown in Germany. From what we
were told was the swastika on the, at the Olympic Stadium in Berlin. That was
the big Olympic symbol. That is the only legal, that's not swastika is not
legal, but it's the only one that has been allowed to remain by the government
legally. Because of the enormity of, of the, the Olympic stadium and the
01:03:00symbolism of what happened in 1936 and so on and so forth. So, and you see these
symbols all over Europe of, of what happened.
You know, the Olympic Stadium in Berlin is open on the west side. And the reason
it's open on the west side was Albert Speer was told by Hitler when he, when he
designed architecturally the Olympic Stadium, he wanted the French in the far
west to be able to see into Germany to see what the Germans have become. And the
chariots on top of the Brandenburg Gate face east. So the backend of the horse's
face the French because that's what Hitler saw and treated the French like and
never liked the French. So little tidbits of information like that, I find
humorous and interesting at the same time.
Doney: Yeah, absolutely.
I guess so, one of my final questions is, why do you think, do you have a sense
of why Mosse's work continues to resonate today. You talked just now a lot about
symbolism and it sounded very like a very Mossean analysis of your own past.
Hilb: Yeah, yeah.
Doney: Thinking about symbols that in different ways they intersected with the
Hilb House. Yeah. And what it represented to you in the States, and then
encountering it in reality.
Hilb: Well, I think we, we go through life with symbols. Whether they're
trinkets that we all collect over the years and need to clean house and so on
and so forth.
But the, the world is full of symbols, whether they're physical symbols or
mental, symbols, call them imagined, if you will. And I look at things with a
lot of symbolism. And maybe you brought up a very good point. Maybe that's one
of the outgrowths of my being involved with George Mosse during the time I was
here. I look for symbols in things. I look for meaningful things.
And hopefully try to reason things out, sometimes not so successful at it, but
you know, and, and you'd like to think that that has to do with your heritage
and your upbringing and a progression from when you were born through, through
all your different levels of education, upbringing by your parents. And
certainly the teachers that, that we've had. Our family is filled with teachers.
And, you know, teachers. We don't have a world without good teachers. Whether
there George Mosse or any of the teachers and professors that all of us have
experienced as we all have matured over the years. But so there is a lot of
symbolism and like I said that, that's a good point. Maybe it's a result of, of
Mosse because I look at things like that.
01:06:00
Doney: Yeah.
Hilb: I really do.
Doney: It's interesting.
Hilb: Yeah.
Doney: It's a way of understanding the past, but also one's own experiences,
right? Cataloging right.
Hilb: The past is a building block.
Doney: Yeah, exactly. Do you have any final thoughts or anything else you want
to add?
Hilb: The only thing I can really add is I'm, I'm appreciative of this
opportunity. When I received the information about the conference, upcoming
conference in Berlin, [mosseprogram.wisc.edu/berlin-2019], it was like, you
know, my wife said to me that, that's right up your alley. It's a once in a
lifetime opportunity. So it's, it's important to me. You know, is it going to
affect the way I live my life or continue to live my life. Yeah, maybe in a
small way, shape, or form. But I like to think of myself as, as being
open-minded. Although some people in my family, might disagree with that
sometimes, but, you know, the blinders are not there and that it's open.
And I feel very fortunate that I've had the experiences that I've had I've been
I've been able to travel to Europe when I have, and certainly being at the
University of Wisconsin was among the highlights of my life. You know, I
wouldn't have exchanged it for any other university in the world. There's no
question about it. And, you know, the names that I mentioned early on are all
people that certainly I feel proud to have been exposed to. Proud to have
experienced in some cases and learned of, and learned about. And hopefully that,
that makes me ultimately a better person, you know, in the long run.
Doney: Am I missing something?
William Tishler: The only thing I can think of is given your interest in sports
and your work and just maybe, you know and Mosse's views on sports, maybe if he
could, if he talked at all about sport.
Doney: Oh, rallies and the pageantry, sports. I remember Mosse saying something
about American football as the modern gladiatorial matches.
Hilb: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Now that you say that he mentioned that even back in the
1960s, you know, I think American sports, especially at the top level, is very
grandiose. It's a spectacle.
Doney: Yeah.
Hilb: You know, and it incites the masses, shall we say? It really does. I mean,
I'm sure many of us have had the opportunity whether we sit at a baseball game
or a football game or certainly Wisconsin football game. Specifically. You know,
01:09:00there, there's, you know, 60, 70, 80,000 people, sometimes a 100,000 people in
these, in these stadia. And you know, it's, it's controlling the masses. If you
have a winning football team, you are controlling the masses of you have a
losing football team. You lose a little bit of control, but the masses may rebel
a little bit, you know. So yes, it's all, it's all part of it and, you know, as
as we think back on it, I don't know if it's a stretch to say it's Nietzschean a
little bit, if you will.
But yes, I mean, I don't specifically recall talking about sports with George
Mosse, but certainly you can make that connection. That sports is what the
masses and it's all about the masses. Whether you're in a democracy such as we
all are privileged to experience. Is it the masses of the Lenins and the
Trotskys? And the Bolsheviks or thenCharles de Gaulles or the Vichys and the
people of the world is it the, the masses that we see with some members of our
current administration.
You know, it's, it's much the same thing to a certain degree, you know, inciting
the crowd. And we all know in terms of the current political climate in the
United States, there, there's, there's a lot of incitement going on, both sides
of the fence, maybe more so on one than another. But you know it's Mossean if
you will, Nietzschean, if you will. All the, all the philosophers you could, you
could put together. So, yeah, That's appreciative of you bringing that up. Yeah.
Doney: He said something else about football, which was that they needed to
change the color of the ball so it's easier to track on the television. I
remember that was one of his comments on American football.
Hilb: He would make a comment, I'm thinking maybe we talked about this, about
the 1936 Olympics when, when Jesse Owens was from the United States was here and
Adolf Hitler, of course, didn't want Jesse Owens (1913-1980) to win anything.
Due to the fact that he was an African American first and then an American
second. But he wanted, and I don't recall the name of the famous German sprinter
at that time [Erich Borchmeyer], but, you know, Hitler had a showcase and you
know, all the, all the German team was dressed in white, you know, the, the
purity of the Aryan race, you know.
And you know, if, if you, if you have an opportunity to, to visualize what went
01:12:00on at the Olympic stadium there in Berlin, which again, I've, I've had the
opportunity to be there and you stand high above the stadium on the one end and
the Langemarck Memorial. And you see the different houses that, that are there
on either side of the stadium that was for the teams to stay or the training
facilities or what have you, you just, you know, it's Albert Speer at his best,
you know. Yeah. No question about it. So.
Doney: Actually there was one other question I skipped over, I'm sorry, which
was did you, did you know that Mosse was gay when you were a student? Was that a
surprise later in life to learn?
Hilb: It was not, it was not a surprise. It was suspect. And that is not to be
taken, you know, positively or negatively. Many of us who are in his classes,
the way he presented, presented his lectures, and the way he, he discussed
things. There was always sort of an undercurrent of do you think George Mosse is gay?
And, you know, nobody knew the answer. I mean, again, the [19]60s were a
different time and yes it was, you know, as we've talked about the war and
everything. But homosexuality at that time was not really in the public eye in
terms of being openly discussed, as I recall. And I, I and most of my friends,
you know, we didn't care, you know, we didn't care one way or the other. You
know, a person has a right to, you know, to be whatever they wanted to be and as
long as they were experiencing a measure of tolerance it was perfectly fine. But
when after George Mosse died and then it became apparent and it came out that he
was gay.
It didn't surprise me, it didn't affect me one way or the other, nor my attitude
toward him at all. If anything, it probably strengthened it because back, back
in those days, it was not something that anybody as I said talked about openly
and I think many people who were gay in those days probably, may have been
embarrassed, I don't know. But it was not something that was out in the open.
Yeah. I mean, yeah. I know I was very tolerant that I know I'm tolerant,
tolerant individuals, so it didn't bother me one way or the other.
Doney: Fair. Is that it? Can you think of any, know final thoughts? Final,
01:15:00final, final thoughts.
Hilb: Other than thanking me for this opportunity.
Doney: It's great. I really enjoyed hearing you story, especially your parents
as émigrés and with your interest in history and history as, as a means of
self-discovery, which I think is often underestimated.
Hilb: Right?
Doney: It's, it's excavation in a sense. And anytime you're digging into the
past, it's the questions and how we frame it are very often personal. Yeah. So I
want to thank you for this.
Hilb: My pleasure. I'm, I'm very appreciative of this opportunity. And I guess
it's run full circle since 1968 now.