Interview with Ellen Jacks

MF: All right. It is January 30th, 2013. I am Megan Falater, and I am interviewing Ellen Jacks. Ellen, can you introduce yourself?

EJ: Hello, I'm Ellen Jacks.

MF: Alright, and Ellen is a former graduate student and is an employee of UW-Madison. Is that correct?

EJ: Correct, the general library system.

MF: Great, OK, the general library system. Great. And we are going to be talking about Ellen's experience during the protests of 2011 at the Capitol regarding Governor Scott Walker and the budget repair bill. And we'll also be talking a little bit about Ellen's experience working with the Campus Voices project for the Oral History Program a few years ago. Alright, so, to begin Ellen, could you tell me a little bit about what it is that brought you to Wisconsin and UW-Madison?

EJ: I came here in August 2003 to attend graduate school, and that was through 00:01:00the School of Music and the Ethnomusicology program. Originally, I was aiming to get a Master's in ethnomusicology. Applied to a couple different programs and wound up choosing UW-Madison because I had just been married, and the other option was Minneapolis, and that's where I'm from. So, we decided to move to a different place. Neither one of us had lived in Madison before, so it's kind of a nice fresh start and a good balance between larger city attractions, but not too large of a city still but of a small town feel. So, that's kind of how I got here.

MF: Great. So, what was it about ethnomusicology that you wanted to study? Or what is it that drew you to that field?

EJ: It was the idea of it being just really interdisciplinary, multi-disciplinary in its nature. I was a music major at my undergraduate level, 00:02:00and that was at Luther College, and there was so much of a focus on this idea of Western High art music, Western classical music, which I love. And there's nothing wrong with that, but there's too little of looking at the whole cultural context of the music. And again, I feel like there's too much of a focus on Western music in particular, and then high art. You know, high art versus... classical versus folk in this idea of high art versus low art. I kind of thought music was music, but also I was really interested in history and interested in culture, in language instrumentations. So, ethnomusicology really seemed to be able to fit that bill of looking at music within its own cultural context, which a lot more scholars are doing with Western music, I should add. Because it is really truly how you can... or one very good way of determining maybe what a 00:03:00composer performer might have been thinking even in the seventeenth century by looking at a lot of their primary source material, what was happening historically, what was happening culturally. And that, in a sense, has been done in history and in other fields for a little bit, too, but ethnomusicology was really kind of expanding more at this, you know... in my mind, I was at least learning about it more at that point. So, the idea where I could just go beyond western music and just look at a much wider picture to see where the music fits in.

MF: OK. How would... how did you learn about this field? It seems like a type of study that... I mean, not that it's esoteric, but one that not all undergraduates would necessarily be aware of, so.

EJ: Sure. Professor Juan Tony Guzman at Luther College introduced me to it. At 00:04:00that point, he was head of the jazz program there. So, he alternated in the... I think it was maybe the spring term. But one year, he would teach history of jazz, and then the next year, he would teach world music. And so, I actually took both of those classes because those... those are pretty much the only two classes that were not focused on Western music, or not directly... at least not focused on the classical side of it. And so that's where I heard the term ethnomusicology was in this World Music Culture class. Or History of World Music, I can't remember the exact course name. And we used a book called Worlds of Music by Jeff Titon--Jeffrey Todd Titon. Big name in ethnomusicology. And actually, the section on Indonesian music was written by R.A. Sutton, who was a professor here. So, when I was looking at grad schools and looking at faculty members, you know, in the whole application process because you want to speak to maybe working with particular professors to try to get accepted into a school 00:05:00and made that connection. So, it's like another reason why I chose here maybe is like, well, I know that guy's name. You know, I read... I read one of his book chapters. So, it was this kind of a level of recognition, too. Alright, thank you. Did you come from a musical background or is this something that you're launching their college now why do you have your musical background and my parents are very involved in music. My paternal grandfather worked extensively with the Cleveland Orchestra and chorus. He was the manager there. So, my dad definitely grew up going to the big, fancy concerts. Mom grew up just being... just involved in music a lot. She's actually a Music Ed major in undergrad. So, both of them kind of very influential on making sure my brother and I both had music lessons if we wanted them. I was very active in the church choir, school band, that sort of thing. Yeah, taking a little bit of music theory in high 00:06:00school. So, yeah. I definitely had a music... kind of music background. Nothing fancy, you know. I didn't do fine art centers, exactly, or anything like that. But that's an interest, so, that's what drove me looking to music programs for undergrad.

MF: OK. Alright. And this musical background then was occurring in Minnesota?

EJ: Yeah, in Minneapolis.

MF: OK, specifically. OK, great. Alright, so you are out of graduate school now.

EJ: Correct.

MF: And could you tell me a little bit more about your current professional, what your professional interests are?

EJ: Sure. I actually wound up... So, I got my Master's in Ethnomusicology. And then starting into the Ph.D. program and got to what I like to call A.A.B.D. So, 00:07:00I took my prelims. Certain aspects went alright, certain aspects did not. Kind of at the same time, my advisor was retiring. I could have re-done a few things, but just decided that, you know... I sort of felt pigeonholed a little bit into going straight into my Ph.D. work, but that was because I was offered funding for a year. And you know, it's kind of hard to turn down a year's worth of tuition and stipends and health insurance. So, not that I didn't enjoy the coursework; I really did. And I learned a lot, and I probably wouldn't be where I'm at right now without going through... having been where I've been. But basically, just realized... I was just realizing that, OK, I've got a Master's in this field. What am I going to do with a Ph.D.? Not a whole lot extra, aside 00:08:00from getting a tenured position teaching ethnomusicology at a university or college. Not much else that I couldn't do with just the Master's. So, I felt like some of it might be pigeon... I was feeling a little pigeonholed, or just not as excited about it as a Ph.D. prospect as I was about just learning. And at the same, I was taking a lot more courses in just general folklore and cross-listed courses with library science. So, eventually, after kind of being part-time and taking some graduate courses here and there not exactly tied into a program, I enrolled into library school as a special student and then got accepted officially for the fall of 2009. But I started already taking library courses before that. So, now, I graduated in 2011 with a Master's in Library Science, also here from UW-Madison, and after stints working other places, I am 00:09:00now the Grants Librarian at Memorial Library. So, it was kind of a windy journey to get here. But, I should say, part of what drew me to the library science is similar reasons to what drew me to ethnomusicology in the sense that everything is kind of inherently interdisciplinary. You need to know a little bit about resources from this subject field, you know, sciences. You have to help people from the humanities, you have to help people for music, history, and you just learn a lot by answering reference questions. So, that's kind of what got me... part of what got me there, but also my first job at UW-Madison as a student was working in the music library. And so, working in a small library on campus, I was able to work in acquisitions, I was able to do some cataloging, did circulation, did reference work, and I did a lot of work in the sound studio, 00:10:00sound preservation studio and with electronic reserves. So, I had a really wide ranging experience there. I realized that's actually what I really like doing, and you're still getting all these other aspects of what drew me to ethnomusicology. Just... right now obviously, I have a much less focused strictly on music.

MF: OK. Great, thank you. So, part of what we're looking at in this interview is your experience with the protests in 2011. When did you first become involved in labor activism or politics?

EJ: I was looking at that question... I don't know how well I could pinpoint that. I've always... I always remember seeing and relishing in "You like the weekend? Thank a union." You know? And all the stories and histories from the 00:11:00late nineteenth century, or early twentieth century about, you know, shootings and union busting when people... all people are trying to do is to get a fair living wage, and especially not to have their kids have to work ten hours a day when they're children. So, I don't really know... I can't really pinpoint a time for that in terms of general interest. Do you remember, it was in junior high--I guess I'm dating myself here--when the first Gulf War broke out under Bush, Sr., and I helped lead a walk out in junior high. We were out there yelling, "No blood for oil!" and marching around the block. I don't know that I necessarily knew what that meant, exactly, except that I knew that the war was bad. That's what I felt, that the war is bad, and my parents weren't necessarily happy with how things were going on politically. So, that was probably my first... It was 00:12:00just a bunch of us going around telling people, "Let's all walk out at noon." And it worked. And I have to say that our administration of our school really... I think they handled things very well. They didn't belittle us. They did kind of... they were able to get us all back inside, but all classes were canceled and everybody was to come to the auditorium, and if you had something that you needed to say, you could go up on stage and say it. And so it really gave people an avenue to express why they were really upset. Or why there are... there are people there in support of the war. So, you know, we had people up there saying why they thought it was good that we were going in. So, I mean I think that they handle that really well. I think their main thing is that they wanted all the eleven and twelve year-olds off the street, thirteen year-olds back in the building at least.

MF: What was school's name?

EJ: Ramsey Junior High.

MF: And this would be in Minneapolis?

EJ: Yeah, this is Minneapolis.

MF: That is impressive. They managed you all so well.

EJ: Yeah, yeah, I don't... I think it was part of like they got a few people to start coming in, and you know how kids are. They follow the fold. Like, "OK, it's time to go in now. Everybody's going back in school, see? Just hope in line and go on in."

MF: OK. Thank you. Do you have any other early memories of involvement in politics or labor activism? Did this extend into your undergraduate or graduate years?

EJ: It did. It did a little bit. Some of my friends' parents are quite liberal as well. So, as I was kind of hearing like a little, like, underhanded, "Oh, that so and so." But then they would explain why certain policies, social policies, might not be good for the greater good in their mind. My best friend's 00:14:00mother was very involved in the school board, so I was kind of around it a little bit. Not necessarily directly... my parents weren't directly involved in much having to do with politics or labor activism, but I was around it a little bit. And I like to play on the whole hippie persona a bit in high school, so, I don't know, like, relishing kind of the social activism of the Sixties. So, I think that part... might have been part of a drive just having to do with the whole counterculture because I didn't feel like anyone should tell me what I'm supposed to wear or what I'm supposed to think or I'm supposed to do. So therefore, I have to be a protester, or I have to be speaking out in support of countercultures. So, I think it was more of a... some of it was a bit of a mindset like that, or feeling like I had to live up to something like that, which I don't know how valid that really was, but I think that might have been some of the moments that I'm not entirely certain. But just sort of being around people talking about things, and I've always been allowed to just express my 00:15:00opinions, but my parents would always throw things back at me, so I'd better be able to defend my arguments. So, I had to become knowledgeable if I was going to be brazen. But then in college, I had a summer job canvassing for the Sierra Club and for the Human Rights Campaign. So, I was going door to door, asking for tougher legislation for hate crimes, and also to help stop logging in national forests. And then that got me involved with some more people, with the peace movements in Minneapolis. There's a weapons manufacturer just outside of the Cities that would send cluster bombs to about twenty six different countries including both India and Pakistan, Iraq and Kuwait, you know. So, both sides of every conflict. And so that's when I started getting more involved with actual 00:16:00protesting. So, we'd go there once a week.

MF: Do you want to name the company, or would you prefer not to?

EJ: I will admit right now, I cannot remember the name. I knew you were going to ask me that, and I'm... I'm drawing a complete blank. I'm happy to get back to you.

MF: That would be great. [Ellen laughs]. We'll do that later. And so you, did mention that this was... you had become involved in the peace movement. Do you remember approximately when this would have been?

EJ: This would have been about... probably summer of 1998 or 1999.

MF: Alright. Did this type of activism continue? Did you move into other types of activities instead, or...

EJ: Not really, just kind of staying current with what was happening. Might be 00:17:00involved here and I was never really one of the ringleaders of anything; I just kind of come along for some of the protests. I believed in it, I believed in them. I believed in what I was canvassing for. Actually, that was my last summer living in Minneapolis. So, I just... there were similar things Decorah, I just didn't get involved in them.

MF: OK, Sure. OK. Thank you. Let's bring you geographically to Madison. When did you... when did you first become involved with the TAA?

EJ: Let's see. I enrolled in the fall of 2003. I got my first assistantship fall 2004. So, that might have been... I think that's when I first became part of the TAA because I realized that... I don't know if I necessarily knew about it my first year. I probably got emails, but didn't pay attention. But when I 00:18:00realized, "OK, I have this project assistant position and part of why I have that is because the T.A.A.", that's when I became a member. And I stayed a member even when I didn't have an assistant position.

MF: Did your association with the TAA change after 2004 when you first became involved in it?

EJ: Not really, I was just... I was just, you know, I paid my dues. I would go to an occasional meeting. I remember they had the strike. Was that spring of 2004?

MF: I actually don't know.

EJ: Yeah, they had a very... like a two day strike. So, I tried not to enter any buildings, and I was forced to have to go to one of my classes, and so I wore a black armband. And I'll admit, I found a sneaky way in so I wouldn't have to go 00:19:00past anyone.

MF: So, then for the spring of 2011, did you have an assistantship at that time?

EJ: I did. I was a teaching assistant for a SLIS course--that's the School of Library and Information Studies--and this is one of our... one of our undergraduate courses, and this Information Differences and Divides in a Multicultural Society. And there were three TAs, and we were all involved in the protests.

MF: OK. So, you say that you're... you were involved in the protests. What did that entail for you?

EJ: For me, it was mainly just getting to the square every day at first, and just to kind of help keep that presence up. And then I found the TAA officers 00:20:00after a few days of being up there, and actually in the Capitol, and just thought I'd see what they needed, what they needed for help. And I frequently was wearing my TAA shirt, so I would go around with one... One bag for trash and one bag for recycling, and I was just going through... just going through the square asking anyone with trash, recycling to give it to me. That way you're, you know, trying to help it keep everything clean and tidy which is one thing that most of the attendees have really stressed that they're very happy about: how well we kept the place despite what reports came out said. I also did some data entry for them because they would go around with lists of... I agreed to sign the petition to recall or people signing up that they would like to be put on a volunteer list for future work. So, I had helped to enter those. We had a 00:21:00whole series of spreadsheets, and then we cross-referenced those to make sure there weren't any duplicates, so people aren't getting five different emails. So, I did some of that, so a little behind the scenes work when I needed to get away from a crowd. I also brought some food on occasion. Fresh food in particular is something they were really hoping for.

MF: OK. How do you recall how you first learned about either the budget repair bill or about the protests that were taking place?

EJ: Yeah, I was actually out of town. OK, I'm glad you have this calendar here. [EJ laughs.] I was out of town that weekend, what I believe it was from Friday, February 11th, and I got back into town on Monday, February 14th. So, I was not part of those initial two days of going down, and you know, the "I heart UW." 00:22:00So, that's actually kind of how... that's how I heard about the budget... the budget repair bill was through the "I heart UW" campaign. You know, "Governor Walker, please don't break my heart." I wasn't there for the delivery, but I heard about it. And I heard something about a drastic budget repair bill and him trying to slide something under that was the commentary I heard. The whole dropping the bomb commentary. So, then I just started looking into it a little bit, mainly Internet news sources. And then, I heard, after I got back on campus on Tuesday the 15th, I was hearing about all these protests. And so, I just went. I had I think about a two or three hour block free, so I just went on down to the square to see what was going on. From that day forward, I was on the square for at least a period every day. I'm not sure when I stopped.

MF: OK. You've mentioned what some of your duties were while you were at the Capitol. You know, handling trash and recycling, doing some data entry. What other memories or what other strong memories do you have of the protests?

EJ: Gosh, there are a lot. Just the coming together of so many people from various facets of life and of work. And just seeing people coming in from all the outlying areas in support of the movement. Jesse, I met Jesse Jackson. [EJ laughs.] I met Tammy Baldwin. That was... those were two amazing events. And then, I was actually up there on West Washington when... you know, when one of 00:24:00the high schools from all the way down, East High School, and then they marched all the way down. So, I was there when they arrove [sic]. They came up to the square, and I was just... I was kind of amazed at the commitment because that was miles long walk, and it was not warm out. I remember I, I thought that was moving, and of course, the firefighters and the bag-pipers. That was pretty moving. Yeah, there was just, in general, there was just a lot of good energy, people really feeling like they could make a change, and that maybe, maybe they would be listened to. And just sort of that positive feeling. And just trying to keep it away from being too angry. You know, there were a lot of people that 00:25:00were making sure that no one was being too angry because they didn't want anything to spin to give any opponents reason or any indication.

MF: Sure. Can you say a little bit more about what you mean by too angry?

EJ: Well, there are a lot of people really frustrated about the budget repair bill. You know, a lot of people were forced to retire before they wanted to because they were going to lose a lot of money. They felt like they were going to lose a lot of money. People realizing like, "OK, I want to be a teacher, but I may not be able to afford to be one anymore because I'm just a substitute." And so there was... It's just frustration. Frustration. And frustrations can sometimes lead to anger. But I didn't really see any of that, and I think that was kind of the point, where if things are... people are starting to boil over and in frustration, someone was there to kind of calm down. Like, you know, 00:26:00"we're here together." It's like, "you're right. We are. Let's go march." And I think, that's more of what I mean, of just like so many people, you know, just trying to keep it positive. Even when you're in week three.

MF: OK. When you were at the Capitol, was there a particular location in or around the Capitol that you tended to go to or do you recall precisely where you would spend your time, or were you kind of everywhere?

EJ: I was kind of everywhere. It really depended if there was an organized... organized speakers, I'd try to get over to at least hear some of that. In the square, I tended to focus a little bit inside the Capitol, at least, excuse me, I tended to focus a little bit more on the upper levels where the TAA office, temporary office was, if anything. But in general, I would just kind of go with 00:27:00the flow, I guess. Yeah. Most frequently, I would run into people I knew there, so sometimes, "Well, I was going to go over here." "OK, well, I'll go with you." And you know, "It's time to do another loop around the outside." "OK, let's go." That sort of thing. I may take a take a break to go sit and eat lunch.

MF: How many people did you end up meeting or noticing that you already knew at the Capitol? Is this something where you were finding people you knew?

EJ: Yeah, yeah absolutely. I can't give you a number. I can say that definitely there were a lot of my students were up there. Not all of them, of course. I mean, well, I wouldn't know anyway. [EJ laughs.] I can't see everybody, but I definitely ran into some of my students up there, which was heartening. Some 00:28:00supervisors, and actually, there is a large group of librarians that would get together and march. We met at the public library. And looking back on some of those pictures now, I realize I work with some of them, and I didn't know them yet, you know. So, that's kind of fun hindsight now.

MF: Is this a group of people you would want to identify by name?

EJ: I don't know how public they want to make things, so...

MF: Alright, that's fair. You did spend most of your time in the Capitol building near the TAA office. What type of contact level were you maintaining with the TAA during the protests?

EJ: Very minimal. I would just kind of pop in and see if they needed any help at that moment. And if they didn't, I would maybe just leave some of my stuff 00:29:00there. It sort of depended on the day. Or I check in to see if they needed anything, you know, for the next day. Make a stop at the store because there were some people that just didn't leave the Capitol building. But yeah, I'm not like on a first name basis with any of the... any of the officers or the main volunteer people. So, but I was on their e-mail list and Facebook.

MF: Well, so, you were then communicating verbally, though, by checking in at the office?

EJ: Yes. Yeah.

MF: Alright, and you've mentioned e-mail and Facebook. So, would you be following news regarding the protests or the budget repair bill through those means, or were you following news through other types of means? How did you keep up with what was going on with the protests or with the budget repair bill 00:30:00during this time?

EJ: It depended. I listened to WORT a lot, the community radio station. They're pretty decent about giving updates. Actually, Facebook was really good for tracking what was happening because people would create events on Facebook and they get disseminated widely. For when, you know, for example, when Tom Morello came a couple of times, Jesse Jackson's coming, a lot of those events got posted widely on Facebook. So, I followed that a bit. TAA would send out e-mails as well. And then also, just word of mouth. Classic word of mouth. I remember when something was about to go down. I was on my way home, but I used to just walk down to the square, and then at least do a few loops around before I went home 00:31:00at the bare minimum, just to get like... to maintain that presence. Because I figured I'm downtown; this is something I can do. I am forgetting now the... Yeah, this is when they were, without any notice, the Finance Committee was going to force that vote through, and it was an evening. I remember because I was up there and there were people going around and going like the town crier, and trying to get everybody, "Just get in there, get in there, get in there." There was a guy riding on his bicycle around the square announcing it, and he was going up and down State Street and around the square and all off a lot of those little side shoots. So, I guess when I'm saying town crier, I'm not really kidding, because he was announcing the news, and people would come out of the coffee shops and restaurants and, "what's he... what's he doing?" and then they hear it, and half of them would gather their things and would march straight 00:32:00down to the square and, from what I saw, would go into the Capitol building. So, there was definitely a word of mouth element if something was happening quickly.

MF: Great. Let's see. You were following some media; you were listening to community radio. Do you feel that that or... were you listening to other media as well?

EJ: A little bit. To be perfectly honest, I didn't have a whole lot of time. So, I know some other people were tracking some of this a little bit more than I was because I was also working in addition to my teaching assistantship. I had two other jobs as well as this, so I didn't have a whole lot of extra time; all my time was spent at the square studying or preparing for class and grading and what not. So, I didn't... I tried not to get sucked in too much to the 00:33:00widespread media representation just because I didn't have as much of the time. That said, I felt like WORT did a decent job. We did get some good coverage from John Nichols and Amy Goodman. Amy Goodman is from Democracy Now. I know she came a couple of times. I actually saw her interviewing John Nichols inside the square and filming her show. Initially, some of the larger media outlets had decent coverage because it was new, but that kind of tapered off. And they weren't very good about following through with possible erroneous stories. When the first... the first report came out about the supposed damage to the Capitol, they estimated the damage in the millions. But this was based on some art 00:34:00curator coming in and saying, "Well, you know, I have to scrub each and everything with a toothbrush, basically." Which is not accurate. You talk to any of the people in the Carpenters Union or anyone that's done woodwork, they would know that's not true. Everything was done with the good frog tape or the blue tape that art restorers and painters and carpenters use that doesn't really leave a residue, and then they had a follow up report saying you know the amount was like one third of the original. That story, the follow up to correct the erroneous report, was not latched on. But that's typical of media these days anyway. Any kind of corrections to stories, doesn't matter what angle, they tend to not promote that as much. So, that's not necessarily indicative of following this story, but of just poor journalistic practices in general. But some of the 00:35:00widespread media outlets just didn't really follow it; they didn't really get what was happening. They were trying to make it all just about unions, which as you probably are aware, it was not. It was also about access to health care. They really gutted Badger Care quite a bit, among a lot of other things. But they really focused on, "Oh, this is just all about unions, and so therefore only people here are unions, and you know, teachers." So, that... I thought that aspect was missing of like the larger picture of what's really all in the bill.

MF: You mentioned that in addition to working as a teaching assistant, you also had two other job during the semester. What were you doing in addition to TA-ing?

EJ: I worked the reference desk at the Music Library. And at this point, I was... yeah, I was no longer working the oral history program at this point. I 00:36:00was earlier that semester, but the project had ended. But then I was also working through the university digital collections scanning images, actually from the music library. But I was technically working for the digital collections. So, what was nice about that job is I was able, I just need to work so many hours a week, but so long as the music library was open, I could do it. So, I was able to come in on weekends to make up some of those hours I had been working during the week. So, I didn't miss any work through this.

MF: How did you manage your time if you were working three jobs and also going to attend the protests and also working as a graduate student?

EJ: Yeah, I was a little crazed. [EJ laughs.] I just made it a commitment. I just made like protesting a fourth job, actually. And I would get home in the 00:37:00evening and have dinner and study and prepare for teaching next day, if it was the night before teaching. I don't know. I think I was only... was I only taking two classes? I may have only been taking two classes because I had so many credits cross-listed from prior degree, so that helped. I could have been taking three. I'm drawing a blank now. Pretty sure I was only taking two, though, so that helped. I mean, that's like, you know, one class is almost like another part-time job. So, yeah. Yeah, definitely I was only taking two classes. So, I was still full time, but that's part of why how I was able to manage my time.

MF: You were TA-ing, of course, along with two other T.A.s. Did you have an 00:38:00opportunity to participate in, I believe there were some teach-outs?

EJ: I did. I did, but I didn't want to lose any actual class time. And we already had an online forum, an online website, a wiki because part of what we wanted with the course was since we're talking about information divides. So, we want to make sure that everybody knows how to do at least a little bit of basic web work. And so, this was in the guise of a wiki. But they do some coding. They could make it as fancy or unfancy as they wanted to. So, I just created some discussion questions. These are the questions that we're going to talk about in person and create an online forum and everybody participated. And then we reviewed them in our next discussion section. And I also used this as a way 00:39:00of... how do you interpret information? How do you gather information? Because that's also part of the information divide used to be called more the digital divide. "OK, do you have a computer an internet or don't you?" A lot of people at least have access to computer and internet now, but then what do you do with it? It's more of that kind of skills based knowledge of like, "OK, how do I find news or how do I find information relevant to me? How do I know that this is good information?" That's a lot more part of the discussion around the information divide now, so the other two TAs and I got together, and we decided to use this as a way in... a way to talk about, "How do you interpret information? How do you know that something is 'good'?" And actually, Professor Greg Downey on his blog, he's a professor, cross-listed with... I think he's joint between the School of Journalism mass communication and library school. He 00:40:00had this blog where he talked about how he looks and reads the news, and how he, you know, he tries to go from all angles, and then how does he... How does he sort it all out to know, OK, what is that? What... what is the most accurate? What gives you the best representation? So, we have a little blog post about that during the protests, and right along the timing of a lot of the teach-outs, and so we looked at that, and we gathered a few other sources about interpreting information. And we made an in-class assignment with it, where Pick a news story, any news story relating to coverage of the protests and go through some of the criteria that was listed. So, who's the author? Do you have any information on the author? Can you find any information on the author? Are they credible? As in... like are they.... Based on what you can find you think that 00:41:00they can effectively speak to what they're writing about. Do they cite any of the sources? Some of that basically, sorting through some piece of information to determine whether or not it's credible, but we use that for, you know, you can go to any news source you want; it doesn't matter. But then go through these and write up a little report on it; it was due at the end of class. And I had a lot of the students come and thank me after that because it was a way to sort of, them to like vent or express, but without it getting too political in class because I also didn't want... students knew I clearly felt strongly about this, and not all of them agreed with me, and that's fine. This is part of rhetoric. You know, when you have these discussions, but I didn't want that to take over without being related to the course, and so, I had students on both sides of the issue thank me for the opportunity because they both, you know... these two 00:42:00students in particular were excited about being able to express their sentiments and why they thought their news source was credible. As long as they could effectively argue why they thought it was credible, there's nothing wrong with that. And that's kind of just where we left it, and we just kept on with the syllabus after that, but we try to, you know... All three... All three... All three of us T.A.s did this, too. So, it wasn't like it was just my class. But it was a good way to, like I said, tie in how to find good information, or how do you determine something is credible by using current events.

MF: OK, good. So, yeah, did... for the students, when they were out completing this assignment, you mentioned that you had students who were on opposite ends of the political spectrum. Did you see a range of different news sources they were using?

EJ: A lot of them were just sort of mainstream news sites. Quite frankly, I 00:43:00think they were tied to their hometowns. So, the T.V. station from their home towns, I was noticing a lot of that. There were some... there're couple of Huffington Posts, a couple CNNs, a couple general Fox News. There was one Democracy Now. But by far and large, there are definitely local T.V. stations, local to, I'm imagining to each student. It's what they know. Or could be.

MF: No, that... that does make sense. Before we...

EJ: Oh, sorry. Some were to their local newspapers, as well.

MF: Before we move into talking about your work with the Oral History Program, are there any other thoughts or recollections regarding the protests at the capitol that you wanted to share or talk about?

EJ: I could probably go on for hours if I allowed myself. [long pause] Yeah, 00:44:00I... I don't know.

MF: Well, let's see. How about, I could try rephrasing this. Looking back at your experiences with the protests, which began almost two years ago now, what is your overall impression or thought about either going through these protests yourself as a student or of seeing... you know, I just leave it there. So, what is your overall impression of going through these protests as a person or as a graduate student?

EJ: I'm glad I did it. I wish it would have done a little bit more than it did. 00:45:00I was a little disappointed in some of the follow through beyond that. But at the same time, I got people to talk about issues, and ultimately, I think that is important. Got people out of their own little bubbles and comfort zones to think about what's happening more widely in the region. For a period, there was some... that feeling where we were part of the national spotlight that was... I'll admit some of that was kind of exciting. I saw video of the night the budget fell through, and I could hear my... I could hear my voice. So, that was kind of entertaining. But overall, I am very glad that it happened, that I did 00:46:00it. I wish some of the results had been different. I feel like more action needed to be taken immediately if we wanted to make it mean more than just drawing a national spotlight, which there's nothing wrong with that either. Yeah, I was there, you know? That's sort of the overall sentiment I have. I have a nice collection of signs.

MF: Could you tell me a little more about the signs? Are there any in particular that you collected or put together?

EJ: Well, I had a big one that I carried around with me. It was a big foam board that said, "Please do not 'Shush!' me; Librarians will not be silenced." And I did some of the words in red, and some in black. So, the ones in red then stood out. You just saw those. From a distance, it said, "Do not 'Shush!' librarians." And all the other words were in black. I got a lot of compliments on that. And 00:47:00coming up, "Oh yay! Librarians!" People would clap. You know, then somebody else... I heard some of the comments. "You know it's bad if the librarians are out." So, that was fun. Then I had just "Negotiate" sign. That was my first sign, was just "negotiate" because that was the whole idea of just like... So, you're going to throw this on the table, but without giving us a chance to talk about it? And they didn't bring in any other stakeholders to the table. I just had a problem with it. You know, just the lack of communication, a lack of willing to work out anything out. And I think that was a lot of people's impression, too, from what I understand. On a couple of the sort of the general signs that AFL was giving out.

MF: Thank you. I'm going to have us switch gears for the interview so that we 00:48:00can move back chronologically one year from then, or actually perhaps a bit more than that, to talk about your work with the oral history program at UW-Madison. So, how did you first become involved with the Oral History Program?

EJ: Actually, through my folklore connections, through Jim Leary. He let me know that Troy needed another student oral historian, and this is when they were working on the Forest Products Centennial project. So, this is in Spring 2008 I came on board. So, I was doing mostly the processing in the interviews. I only did two myself, but like I said, that was kind of right at the end, or towards the end of that interview portion of that project. So, that's how I got on board. And then I've been kind of there on... I was there on-and-off through... 00:49:00through, yeah, Spring 2011.

MF: So, you were then involved with the Campus Voices project with Troy Reeves, right? So, what was your experience with that project, or what do you recall at this point, three years later, in working with that project?

EJ: Yeah, I can't remember how much I was working there directly at that point. That might have been during a slight off, but then they brought me back on. But Troy, I believe, brought me in to help be a bit more of the technical side, work on extracting some of the audio segments because, I think like I said earlier, I used to work at the sound studio at the music library. So, I have a little experience with digitization and cleaning up audio files and clipping things, 00:50:00and getting everything about the same volume. So, Troy brought me on to help with that, for the T.A. strike project. And then I would up helping the corollary project, helping out with the story booth. So, the bombing at Sterling Hall. That led into another second Campus Voices project. Yeah, so I was mainly working on extracting audio files, and I think I helped to sort through some of the ones that we might want, and some of the possible clips to create the album, and to kind of give that the oral... the oral history out of the T.A. Strike, and then of Sterling Hall, in people's own voices. I was mainly on a technical 00:51:00side. And I did the web- page as well.

MF: So, I mean, in some ways, the task that you were doing for Campus Voices were some... comparable to what you'd been trained to already, or that you were doing for your job in other ways to begin with.

EJ: Correct. Comparable, but also different because at the Oral History Program, you're dealing with just a single voice. At the Music Library, you're having a much wider frequency range because you might be digitizing something that's a full symphony orchestra or at least, some kind of a musical ensemble that might have a lot of highs and a lot of lows. So, the actual bit rate and conversion rates would be a little bit different. At Mills, we're always doing everything in stereo, and for the oral history, everything was put into mono. So, there's 00:52:00some differences. There are some technical differences, but conceptually quite similar, yes.

MF: You've also been doing this, presumably, in listening to interviews or conversations... might be having an opportunity to listen to the interviews that you were working on. What was your experience of getting to listen to other people's oral history interviews?

EJ: In general, it's fun. Everything's fascinating. I just, I love to hear people's stories So, that's just my overall impression, but I also had to be careful about not getting sucked in. There was a lot of other work to be done. So, it's mainly kind of clicking through quickly, and in terms of quality control, spot checking and deciding what kind of process needs to run through to clean something up, or to boost the volume, if needed. I tried to do as little 00:53:00as possible because you don't want to get rid of a person's quality of their voice. Sometimes you kind of split the difference because you have to be able to hear what they're saying, too, if it was a really poor recording. But yeah, it was always interesting to hear people's stories. I enjoyed that aspect. And I also enjoyed the different media outputs that we would� we'd use with Campus Voices, of having kind of the mini-movie, and working with iTunes U-album, and then just general straight up recordings. Then trying to get all that put on a web page. That part was a little bit new for me. At Mills, everything was a little different because a lot of what I was digitizing was just to save their conservation of the audio, preservation of the audio, or for e-reserves, which is a whole other systems because only people enrolled in each class can access the file. That way it would be fair use. So, this is a little different with 00:54:00that. There are different outputs, I guess. But I really enjoyed that.

MF: Did you... what was your experience of trying to put these different types of output onto the Oral History Program's webpage? Did you... run into any challenges or surprises?

EJ: I did at times. It depended on... well, this is sort of more with the general Oral History page, not necessarily Campus Voices, but from some conferences' keynote speakers who wanted those on the webpage. We had permission from the speakers just to put them up there so others could listen. We had to have kind of a hosting service, so we used this, and then an embedded player, so we used this... It was recommended to us, this player called Flow Player. But it 00:55:00would start--it would auto-play, and I had three different keynotes on there. You load the page and they're all playing at once. And it was kind of... kind of funny, but also, "How do I get this to stop?" And so, I got to play around with a lot of code and I eventually figured it out. So, I was proud of myself for that, which is probably very menial to anyone who does a lot of programming, a lot of coding, but I didn't do a heck of a lot. At that point. But I got to work more with JavaScript. I got to work a little bit with Flash, and that's something I hadn't done too much of before. So, that helped me to... You know, I learned a little bit in various classes, or a little bit here and there on my own. So, it was nice to kind of apply some of those skills.

MF: How time consuming would it be to try to create that webpage, or to maintain 00:56:00it or, you know, create some of these updates to it?

EJ: I'd have to look at it again. I think knowing now what I know, it probably wouldn't take too long, and I know that's not a real specific answer.

MF: Well, I'm thinking partly, too, just like learning the process. I mean, it seems like something that would be very difficult to try out, particularly the first few times that it's done. So, I mean, I'm trying to get a sense for the amount of... This seems like something that you would put a lot of labor into.

EJ: Well, I tracked all of my work and I created a manual, a training manual. So, all the coding exceptions I had to do, I put in text format in that manual, so people, they could just copy the code. And step-by-step instructions on uploading files and linking properly to the iTunes U-albums, so that when you downloaded it, the tracks stayed in order. That was another issue, when you downloaded the album, the tracks, even if you label them one-two-three, 00:57:00sometimes they would play in random order, and that's not really what we wanted. And it wasn't anything exactly having to do with hitting a random button, you know, play in a random order using iTunes. We actually had to put the track number into the title. So, that was some trial and error, but again, that was all... I notated all of that and documented all of that. So, I don't think it would take too terribly long if all the documentation is still accurate from two years ago.

MF: It's impressive. Perhaps, actually, my inexperience with library work is showing here, but that you were able to not only learn to use something new yourself, but to create a process around it. Is this something that you've been able to do in some of your other types of work as a graduate student?

EJ: Yes. Yeah, I did that at the music library as well. Partly because, you know, I've been doing the same work for a few years there, and I was graduating. And I know when I came into the position at oral history, I took over the student office manager after the Forest Products Lab, or it might have been after Campus Voices, but in any case. Somewhere in there. The prior student office manager didn't really leave any documentation of what she did. There was one who did it for a little bit after, and she sort of started typing up some of the stuff she did, and she showed me what she did, and I just think it's so important to have good documentation and job descriptions. This is actually... A lot of librarians end up having to do something like this when they come onto a job because the prior person might not have really left anything because it's 00:59:00all knowledge in that person's head. They might have trained people, who may have gone on to do other things. So, it's just something I started doing. Mainly, because I knew I was going to be leaving, and I didn't want to leave anybody else hanging.

MF: Well, you are currently working with the Memorial Library. What are your future plans?

EJ: I want to stay here. I hope. I started working here at Memorial in the reference department as a Research Intern last year. It's the equivalent of a Post-Doc, where you do full- time work, and you're on a salary. Very, very limited benefits, but it's considered professional experience, and it was only good for people who graduated from a library school in the last eighteen months at the time of application. So, you're not competing against people at five 01:00:00years experience outside of student work. So, I did that for a year, and then last fall they announced that they received the funding to rehire a Grants librarian full-time. So, I applied for that, and that position is part of the Reference Department as well. So, I had to go through the whole, I went through the whole search and screen process, phone interview, you know, the day-long in-person interview with public speaking component. So, I got the Grants job, and I just started that this month. So� yeah, I hope to stay in the system here. I'm enjoying my work, thus far. And in general, I want to stay with an academic librarianship.

MF: What is it about an academic library or an academic librarianship that draws you?

EJ: Especially working in a reference department, again, it really ties into me being a bit of an academic nut, I guess. I just have so many, so many interests. And I'm not really an expert in a ton of them. But, you know, I studied math and science a bit in undergrad as well. I just find, just learning about other disciplines kind of fascinating, so staying within, you know, reference or public service area of an academic library is a really good way to kind of keep a feel of what's happening in academia and higher education. I still get to teach, because I enjoy teaching, but I don't have to maintain a whole course and maintain workshops. I help people a lot in one-on-one situation, appointment settings. And especially the grants position, I help people from all backgrounds. We get a lot of people coming in, work with local nonprofits, 01:02:00people coming in just trying to get money to pay for tuition, both here on campus or anywhere else. We help whoever needs to come in. We help via phone, email. So, it does get that working with the general public aspect in it as well, which I really like because I don't want to be completely just only academic types, if you will. It's good to maintain your relationships widely. And I feel like this position does that nicely.

MF: Do you wish to share any final thoughts?

EJ: Yeah, I'm surprisingly speechless for someone who's been babbling on for a while.

MF: Well, you've had the opportunity to say a lot of your thoughts.

EJ: Yeah, I'm happy I wound up where I did. Sometimes I wish I'd gotten to 01:03:00library school a little earlier, but I don't know if I would have this type of a passion for it if I did. I feel like I came to it naturally. And yeah I'm glad I attended the protests, and I feel good about standing up for something I believed in. So, I guess that's probably a good way to end it.

MF: Alright. Thank you, Ellen, for talking to me today.

EJ: Oh yeah, it was my pleasure.

MF: Alright. This is Megan Falater, and it is January 30th, 2013, and I am talking with Ellen Barksdale Jacks, and Ellen wanted to add one other recollection from her experiences in 2011 at the Capitol in protest against the budget repair bill.

EJ: Yeah, in our kind of winding down here, I realized I neglected to mention 01:04:00that even though I was up at the square, really I didn't do the Capitol 24-7 exactly, but I did spend one night there. I felt like it was important. If I was going to be up there the whole time, I felt like I needed to get the full experience, and this wound up being the night that they, the assembly ran the bill through, actually. So, I did get a little sleep, I think starting around midnight or so. And then at about 1:30, there was just commotion. This is when, you know, in the middle of the roll call that they just decided to vote. And it was, you know, this is the assembly portion that the senators were still gone. But the assembly leaders decided that they were just... They were done getting 01:05:00statements from the public even though they are supposed to maintain statements for the public, so this happened to be that night of all nights that I spent there. And my husband met me at the square and brought Therma-Rest and some camping gear, and a little something for me to nibble on. So yeah, that was a really interesting experience. I had some people who couldn't spend the night, but they knew I was there, and they would come and found me. I had a little corner set up. There were some high school girls across the street because there wasn't school the next day. So, some parents let their high school students stay there. The parents were there, too, but not staying at the same spot to give their kids a little bit of freedom, but they kind of asked me to keep an eye out, which I did. Just a little bit of a courtesy. They felt better because they 01:06:00saw my sign. They're like, "Oh, she's a librarian. She's safe." [MF laughs] So, that was a really interesting experience to spend the night there, a big camping backpack. And then I actually went to work at oral history the next day. Troy might be able to speak to that. I was a little tired, but I knew that I didn't have to teach or anything the next day. I didn't have any classes the next day. I just needed to go get some work done, so it seemed like a good night that was a good night to do that, so I could have the full experience. And I'm very glad I did. But yeah, to be there the night that the bill was rammed through the assembly was pretty intense. There were a lot very, very upset people. I did then get woken up a little while later. There was the commotion about the bill being rammed through out in the Rotunda. So, I went around, took some pictures and talked to some people for a little while, and then I eventually just went 01:07:00and laid back down. And then a couple hours later, I was woken up and told I had to move because they were supposedly cleaning certain areas, which there was actually, you know, I don't know if they did. I don't know that they didn't. I didn't see it. That's all I can say to that. But the police officer, the security officer who woke me up, they were very, very kind and just, you know, they didn't like pick you up and move you. They just, "Sorry to wake you up. We're going to have to close off this section, and we're going to need you to move, please, at your convenience." If you were dawdling too much, they would come back around again, but they knew people were generally following the instructions. So, those first few weeks, first couple of nights, from what I understand, most people weren't... Sections weren't being closed off to sweep and mop the floors or anything, so there was some conspiracy theorists, of course, were thinking, "Oh, they're doing that now to try to keep people from 01:08:00staying." And hence the testimony would stop. But I don't think that was happening. I think that they're honestly just trying to maintain the cleanliness of the capitol, which they did a wonderful job of doing overall.

MF: So, you were at the Capitol the night that the budget bill received a vote.

EJ: In the assembly. In the assembly. The senators were still in Illinois.

MF: How was it that you learned that was happening?

EJ: This was just actually a convenient night for me to spend the night in the Capitol. I found out that it was being rammed through and being passed by the commotion in the rotunda. Some people watching a live feed heard that and started talking about it, and got a little louder.

MF: So, let's see. What was... do you have a sense for how many people were 01:09:00sleeping at the Capitol the night that you were there, or I mean, how crowded your area seemed to be?

EJ: It was quite crowded. I got a little niche for a while, and I knew there was a chance I would have to move. But all the places where I knew I wouldn't have to move for a fact, we'd been told, they were full. Yeah, I mean, it was... every nook and, you know quite a few nook and crannies were filled. Yeah. But not to the obstruction of anyone trying to walk around.

MF: Alright, I don't know if you have anything else you'd like to add, or...

EJ: Probably not. [laughs]

MF: Alright, well, I want to thank you again, Ellen, for hearing more 01:10:00information about your experience.

EJ: Yeah, my pleasure.

MF: Thank you.

End of Interview #1314