Interview with Alice Kanagaki

SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1847

KANAGAKI, ALICE

KANAGAKI, ALICE (1926-)

Interviewed: 2019

Interviewer: Lea Goldstone

Index by: Lea Goldstone, Sophie Clark

Transcribed by: Teresa Bergen

Length: 1 hour, 23 minutes

First Interview Session (January 25, 2019): Digital File

00:00:00

LG: All right. So today is January 25, 2019. My name is Lea Goldstone. And I'm here doing an oral history with Alice Kanagaki. And we're doing this interview over the phone in Madison, Wisconsin. This interview is part of our Madison General School of Nursing Alumni Oral History Project, from 1906 to 1982. So Alice, can you say your full name and spell your last name?

AK: Okay. My full name is Alice Misako Kanagaki. K-a-n-a-g-a-k-i. And my maiden name was Noguchi, N-o-g-u-c-h-i.

LG: All right. Perfect. So tell me about your background. Where did you grow up?

AK: Okay. I was born in Vacaville, California, a little rural town. And my father worked on the fruit farms. And then when he got older, he said oh, this 00:01:00is too much for me anymore. So we got a little Mom and Pop store in a little town called Martinez, which is in the Bay Area. Part of the little river that goes around there by San Francisco and out this way. Anyway, so this was in 1941. And then Pearl Harbor happened in December 7, as you know. And Martinez was a vital, considered a vital area because the naval weapons station was there. So my parents being aliens, because even though they had come from Japan many years ago, you know, Asians were not allowed to become citizens. But anyway, and so they had to move out of Martinez.

So in time, there were rumors that we would be, those of Japanese descent, would 00:02:00be sent to some kind of a camp or some kind of a location someplace inland. And so we sold the little store and then we all moved to [Susu?] so that we could be, sent wherever we were going to be sent to, with some cousins. And so I think it was in April when they did send us to temporary assembly centers. And we were sent to Turlock, Turlock, California. We were there for about three months. And the interesting thing is, we met people from all over California. There were people from southern California, central California, and we were considered people from the Bay Area. They considered areas near San Francisco as the Bay Area.

And so after three months, the permanent camps were completed. And there were ten in total. And we were sent to a camp called Gila Rivers, Arizona. And it was in Arizona. And it was in the middle of an Indian reservation. And I think they had to get permission, the government had to get permission from the Indians to build this camp there. And there were two camps there, one and two, Butte and Canal. And we were assigned to Butte Camp. And I was there for my junior year and senior year. And so I graduated from high school there in the camp. And gratefully, the curriculum was adequate enough that we were able to take courses 00:04:00preparatory to going to college. But I had no idea what I was going to do with myself.

And so my cousin, who happened to be going to Madison General Hospital in Madison, Wisconsin, wrote and said, "Hey, listen, I'm going to school here under the United States Cadet Nurse Program. And this is a government-funded free education." You see, during World War Two, the civilian hospitals had lost so many of their staff nurses that some were threatened with closure. And so this very, very wise lady congresswoman, I think, oh, what the heck was her name now? 00:05:00Oh, I knew it until yesterday. Anyway, she introduced this bill that encouraged college-bound girls to take up nursing. And under the Public Health Department, the government would pay for the three years of education

So when my cousin wrote and told me about that, and she sent me an application to the Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, I quickly filled it out and mailed it in. And based on the fact that she was one of the most ideal students any school could have, and because, I had stated I was her cousin, they accepted me. (laughs) No questions asked, practically.

Anyway, so that's why I'm very grateful to Madison General Hospital that they accepted me and allowed me to stay in spite of my mischievous behavior.

Now, what else?

00:06:09

LG: Well, describe a little more about this mischievous behavior, just so we have kind of more of your personality, background, just life at school.

AK: Wait, was there a question there that you didn't quite understand?

LG: Oh. No, it's fine. So when you went into the nursing school, had you had any prior interest in nursing?

AK: Well, you know, in the 1930s and 1940s, girls either took up being a secretary, a teacher or a nurse, and then the rare gal would become a dietician or a pharmacist or something. But generally it was either a teacher, a nurse or a secretary. And I remember my oldest brother saying, "Why don't you be a nurse?" And so that kind of sat in the back of my head.

And while I was in camp, a friend of mine, her older sister was a registered nurse working in the hospital, in the camp, in these internment camps. And I saw her all dressed up in her beautiful white uniform with her navy cape and her cap on. And I thought, what a beautiful sight. And I thought, you know, I think I guess I do want to be a nurse. Other than that, when I finished high school, because my family said, "We have no money to send you on to school," my three brothers were in the service already, fighting in Europe. But anyway, and I thought gee, I have nothing to do. And then when my cousin wrote, of course I decided this is what I shall do. And that's how I ended up in Madison General Hospital.

LG: Okay. Was that pretty common amongst women, like just in the culture in 00:08:00general? That role for them to become nurses and teachers?

AK: You know, that could be a possibility. You might be able to say that with some validity. Because as I said, there weren't a lot of choices. And, well, other than the fact that you were told to get married. (laughs) So that or working in an office of some sort, other than a secretarial situation.

LG: All right. So moving on to your life in Madison. Did you live in the nursing dorms?

AK: Oh, yes.

LG: What was it like to live in that kind of environment?

00:09:00

AK: Wonderful. You see, we were all young teenagers, all strangers. And we all 00:09:00made friendships that were lasting. They were all wonderful gals in this class. And to this day, you know, 70, 80 years later, we are still very close friends. Now our class was not considered a large class. I think we started out with about 35 to 37 girls. And then by, for various reasons, they dropped out. And so when we graduated, there were only 20 left.

And an interesting thing I want to tell you about is that someone, some wise class member, started what they called a round robin of letters. And so what you do is you write your letter, put it in the envelope, and send it onto the next person on the list. And it goes around to the 20 gals. And then when you get 00:10:00yours, you take out your old letter and put in a new letter, telling about what you've been doing and so on. And so we kept this round robin of letters up for the, well, it's still going, although there are only four of us left participating.

You know, this was the best time for me, the best three years of my life. Because this transition period from being a teenager to become a young adult, we were all in the same situation. And you had all these wonderful friends and support. And so it was an easy transition to make. So we entered as teenagers and we all became adults. And we were all there to help each other. And so living in the dormitory, I enjoyed that very much. Because I had three older brothers. And having all these gals around for friends, that was a treat.

LG: So tell me a little bit more about some of the recreational activities that you did with the other girls in the dorm. Just kind of your everyday kind of fun activities.

AK: Okay. Number one, the school did occasionally provide a picnic, or they sent us to take some swimming lessons. And someone came and taught us square dancing. And that kind of thing. But amongst ourselves, gee, what did we do? It was just fun, because the university was close by. And so it was fun going over there to the Student Union. And you're familiar with that, where all the kids hung out. And so we'd go there, too, and buy a hamburger or something and maybe dance or have a Coke or something. And the Madison, one of the most beautiful cities in 00:12:00this country, had, I think, four lakes surrounding the town. And Lake Mendota, as you know, is right there. And it's a beautiful lake. And so often we would go there and just go down to the pier there and jump off the pier and play in the lake or something. Of course, it was fun walking downtown to the Capitol area. Or going to a movie, or popping in and out of the different shops. Oh, and we had, there were many parks, also. And Vilas Park was close to Madison General Hospital. And I think most of us spent a lot of time there. Whether it was just to go canoeing or swimming or just lying out there on the beach. And it was within walking distance from the dormitories.

LG: Great. So kind of transitioning more to the technical side, describe your 00:13:00training at Madison.

00:13:10

AK: Describe the training. Well, I'll tell you. I was never a good student. Whether, I mean, I was a bad student in high school, not very, and I should have been a better student as a nursing student. I wish I had paid closer attention, taken better notes and referred to the textbooks more often. Then I think I would have been a more knowledgeable, and a better nurse. But I just didn't have that self-discipline, I guess. And other than that, we had wonderful instructors. They were all very kind and helpful. And they did their best to 00:14:00have us do our best.

LG: Was it very one-on-one with your instructors? As you mentioned, it's a very small class size. So was there close teacher-student relationships then?

AK: Yes, there was a close relationship between the instructors and us. Our nursing arts instructor, and of course they knew each of us personally by our first names. And if we weren't working up to snuff, they would let us know. And then the nursing instructor made sure that each and every one of us knew the clinical part of taking care of patients. Is that the right word, clinical part? Anyway, you know, whether it's bathing or walking them. Oh, and they hired a 00:15:00professional masseuse to come and teach us how to give back rubs. Now you're quite young, so you don't understand that back in the '40s, a patient got a complete bath in bed and got an alcohol and powder back rub. And we were taught by a professional person on how to give a back rub. And they enjoyed that so much. But today, I think nurses just kind of give a patient a wet, a chemical solution wet rag and say, "Just clean yourself." Right? Am I correct?

LG: I'm not sure. I haven't been in a hospital in a pretty long time. But that's really interesting. I've never even thought about giving a back rub as a nurse. 00:16:00That just sounds--it's so interesting to think about. But even more on that point, just tell me more about kind of some of the unique aspects of your training that you can remember.

AK: Well, you know, I'm back to giving a patient a bath. Because that involves, do you know that we would put their feet into a pan of warm water and wash their feet? And you had to be very careful you didn't spill that pan in their bed. Can you picture that? And this is 1940, during World War Two. And everything was recycled. And when I say recycled, I mean if we gave an injection, that syringe was rinsed out with saline and then thrown into a pan of alcohol. And then the 00:17:00next patient that got an injection, that same syringe and needle was used. You rinse it out with saline, and then draw up whatever solution you're going to shoot into the patient. And then you would go through the same process. And the same thing with rectal tubes. If you gave a patient an enema, you washed everything out and soaked it. And those tubes were boiled over, and used over and over again, with all the patients. Same thing with catheters for the bladder, foley catheters. And then IV solutions. There was a nurse that made up the IV solutions and used the same tubing by boiling the tubing and then sterilizing it that way. And then it was all reused again. Isn't that shocking?

LG: Very. How long did that continue on?

00:18:09

AK: Oh, well into the '50s. And then I think by the '60s, there was disposable equipment that the hospitals had. And so you did not reuse rectal tubes or syringes or things like that. I think that probably started in the middle '60s.

LG: Wow. Were there any other, just on that point, because this is so interesting to get a glimpse of what it was like to get training. Is there anything else that kind of stood out to you about, something that would be kind of shocking to people of today or in the future?

AK: Well, married students were not allowed in our school at that time. And of course there were curfews every night. And there were several girls who were 00:19:00clever enough to break the rules and they got away with it. But when I tried to break a rule, I got caught. Every time I did that, I got caught. And that's why I say I'm so grateful the school did not discharge me, and allowed me to stay. I think I just had this black cloud over my head. Because if I did something that the other girls got away with, I got caught. Anyway. Anything else unique, being a student nurse. Well of course, as I said, the curfews. And drinking was not allowed. You were not allowed to go into any bars, whether, and if we wanted to go home, you had to have a note from home saying that you can go home.

And there I lied and I said I was going home to Chicago where my family lived. And I think I faked a note from my mother. And I did this because a classmate said, "Hey, listen. Come home with me this weekend." And she encouraged me to do some lying. And so I said, okay. And so I went home with this gal named Maybelle. And we had a great time. But we had one of the worst snowstorms the country had. And so of course we had to call in and say, there was no transportation, and call in and say we couldn't get back to the school. And I had to admit that I was there illegally. Now, I didn't know that transportation from Chicago to Madison, Wisconsin, had also stopped because of the storm. If I 00:21:00had known that, I guess maybe I wouldn't, they expected me not to come back from Chicago. But when I admitted I had gone home with Maybelle, I was campused for a month. Meaning I couldn't leave the dormitory for any reason.

LG: Wow.

AK: (laughs) Therefore I missed I think my brother's wedding. But there it is. And what other, they were quite strict with our behavior.

LG: Mm hmm. It sounds like it, for sure. (laughs) Compared to today.

AK: But I'll tell you something. The food at Madison General Hospital was the best. We had two of the best cooks in the whole country. And pastry bakers. And I think every classmate must have gained ten pounds. Oh, yes. By the time they were seniors and dating, they decided well, maybe I'd better lose weight. So 00:22:00everybody would go on diets, on a diet, when they were seniors. But the food was just wonderful. And I've worked in several other different hospitals and none of them would compare to the food that we got at Madison General Hospital. And you know, there was food rationing, right? We had to have ration tickets. Oh, you wouldn't know that, of course, you're too young, but maybe your grandparents would remember that. But hospitals were allowed to buy meat. And of course Wisconsin being a dairy country, we had plenty of cheese and meat and that sort of thing. But the food was just outstanding. I've never had such delicious roast pork or roast beef or cinnamon buns or macaroni and cheese. Oh! They were the 00:23:00best cooks.

LG: And were the cooks in the dorms, or were they in just the hospital?

AK: Well, no, the hospital. The hospital had the big kitchen where all the cooking was done for the patients and on the basement floor was a dining room for the nurses and the interns and residents and doctors.

LG: I see. And kind of gearing back towards more of the classes, in some of my research that I did just on looking at pictures and looking up online different information, I saw that in the dorms they also have some classrooms. Am I correct on that?

AK: Yes.

00:23:49

LG: Did you have any classes there?

AK: There were two dormitories. As a freshman, we stayed in one called Rest Harrow, which was an older building. And ten of us lived on the fourth floor. 00:24:00And that was our freshman year. And for the next year, we moved to McConnell Hall, which was a beautiful building. And one half of it was for graduates. You know, graduates renting a room. And the other half had classrooms down in the basement. And then there was a huge auditorium and some student, and rooms for student nurses on that other wing. But McConnell Hall was probably one of the most beautiful nurses' dormitory I'd ever lived in or seen. As I said, I've worked in several other hospitals, and they either didn't have a dormitory for young single graduates, or the student nurses, I think the student nurses at Milwaukee where I work, I think it was the Milwaukee Lutheran Hospital, the 00:25:00students stayed in homes that were owned by the hospital. And at County Hospital, where we matriculated to in Chicago, it was a15-story dormitory, but it was very grim and lonely there. But McConnell Hall was the most beautiful, and it was modern, it was a modern building. And it was just a joy to live there.

LG: And either in the dorms or even just in your experience as a nursing student, did you have much interaction with either physicians or like premed students?

AK: With other, did you say with doctors or premed students?

LG: Like pre, yeah.

AK: No. No. Only at work. They were called externs. They came from the medical school, from the University of Wisconsin. And they were being exposed to the 00:26:00different units. They were called externs. I'll tell you, as I said, in those days, the school were very strict. As an example, we were not allowed to enter an elevator before a doctor. We stood back until the doctors got into the elevator, and then we were allowed to get in. If they came to the nurses' charting desk, we were supposed to get up and give our chairs to the doctors. As I said, you know, that kind of strictness existed for us.

LG: So, more on that, too. In your training, did you have any crossover with physicians? Or was it mostly just the nursing community?

00:26:58

AK: Oh, wait a minute. Would you state that question again?

LG: So in your training, like during your classes or exams or anything like 00:27:00that, did you have a lot of crossover with physicians? Or was it mostly just contained in the nursing community?

AK: Crossovers. I don't know exactly what you mean by that. But I'm telling you, we were expected to treat the doctors with great respect, and no familiarity was allowed.

LG: Oh, okay. Yeah. That was kind of what I was asking.

AK: And you were supposed to step back when they arrived, so that we would not be in their way, and so on.

LG: I see. And did you also experience that as, or after you graduated nursing school? Like as a nurse, did you experience that same kind of distance from physicians?

AK: That things had changed?

LG: Or, like you said, during your nursing school experience you and the 00:28:00physicians, the nurses and physicians were very separate. There was not familiarity. Is that also the experience you had in your career as a nurse?

AK: Oh, as a graduate nurse? Well, you know, we were respectful. But we were allowed to speak to them in a friendly fashion. Yes. And of course, there was some dating that went on. And so yeah, things changed when you were a graduate.

LG: So discuss some of your nursing school cohorts. Like the people that you kept in touch with. Have you kept in touch with a lot of your nursing school friends?

AK: Well, yes, we did. As I told you about the round robin of letters. So that really kept us all in touch. We knew who got married and the children that they 00:29:00had, and etcetera. And then we had a reunion, I believe, almost every five years. And even though I lived out in California, I think I attended every one of them except the first one. I must have been pregnant with that one. But anyway, I attended every reunion. Or you know that would be right there with all of our classmates. That was great fun. And so I think because we were a smaller class and we were all able to keep in touch. And so those reunions are great.

LG: Great. And is there anything else that you would want to add about your experience as a nursing student?

AK: Oh, gosh. The best years of my life. And, as I said. And we were all very 00:30:00poor. And the program, the United States Cadet Nurse program, allowed us to have 15 dollars a month stipend as freshmen, and then 20 dollars, I think, as sophomore. And then maybe 25 as seniors. Of course in those days, you know, you could buy an awful lot with a dollar. But even so, we really learned how to stretch our dollars and of course those who came from families who could, their parents gave them money to spend, I came from a poor family, so I had to make my 15 dollars a month stretch to even buy our own private toiletries or any ice cream that you wanted or something like that.

But as I said, coming from California and although I grew up with mostly 00:31:00Caucasian friends for different reasons, even though there was a large Japanese-American community in my little town, so for me, going to an all Caucasian school was nothing new because my friends back home were Caucasians. And it was interesting to see that there were some girls who were German and mostly Norwegians. And the fun thing is, when they went home, they would bring back Norwegian goodies. Like I think a krumkake was some kind of crispy cookies, and some kind of a fish dish. And they would bring back food from home like that 00:32:00that was typically Norwegian. And for me, that was really interesting and a treat. And there were some German girls.

And of course my classmate and best friend, whom I hope you will interview, her name is Fung Wong Scholz, and she and I became close friends. And we are still probably the best of friends now. We've traveled together and done a lot, and we keep in touch. She's going to be 93 this month, I mean next month. And it was a treat for me to have her as a roommate. She invited me home to her home in Beloit, Wisconsin. And I met all of her brothers and sisters. And there were seven all together. And as I say, I hope you can interview her. Because she lost her father when she was only twelve. And she was the second eldest. Older 00:33:00brother, fourteen. And they all pitched in, worked. The mother could speak no English. And they all survived, existed, and each one of them became outstanding professions in their professions. Physicians. Dean of her college, and so on. So this Fung Wong Scholz has an interesting family background. And when she left training--and she was one of the better nurses in our class. Not only was she smart, but she's one of these girls that was so well organized, and neat, and quick. I used to envy her because she was such a capable person. And I think when she went back to Beloit and she worked at a small local hospital, she developed an emergency department, which they needed badly. And so, you know, 00:34:00she has a very interesting background. So I hope that you would include her in the interviews, because generally speaking, I think most of the stories you'll probably get from what, 20 other girls you're going to interview?

LG: Mm hmm.

AK: Are probably similar in that they came from a nice home that could afford to send them to school. And they worked, or maybe they got married and didn't work, and so on. Whereas her story, I think, is interesting. Now I had to work, so I worked, for about 37 years, I guess, before I retired.

LG: Mm hmm. So describe your career as a nurse after nursing school

00:34:57

AK: My years? Or just a few of those years?

LG: Describe your career in general.

AK: Oh, okay. All right. When we graduated at Madison General Hospital, we were all allowed to work in the department that we would choose as our specialty. Some of the girls were working at the Veterans Hospital through a program. And my friend was working in surgery. And other were working elsewhere. I was working in the labor and delivery department. And I found that very interesting. So I went to Chicago Lying-In to take a six-month course on obstetrics. Chicago Lying-In is in Chicago. It's part of, I think the medical school at the University of Chicago. And it's a big maternity hospital. And so I learned so much there. It's amazing that I, for a change, I buckled down and I studied and 00:36:00I learned a lot. And in your questionnaire, you say what have you done that you are proud of? Well, number one, I'm proud that I chose nursing and that I worked for 35 to 37 years as a nurse doing my best. But more than that, because of that six months training in obstetrics, now this might be more like bragging or boasting rather than just being proud, but I'm proud of the fact that I had learned so much at that extra training in obstetrics that I think I saved the lives of about three or four babies. Because I was able to recognize abnormal situations that were going on with a woman in labor that even though it was in the middle of the night, I called their physician and tell them what was 00:37:00happening, and they would come in the middle of the night and they did a C section and saved that baby's life. And you know, that kind of thing happened about three, four times. And I was grateful that I did take that extra course in obstetrics and learned some of the dangerous situations that can happen when you're in labor.

LG: Mm hmm. And so did that course really drive you towards your focus in your career? What was your like specialty?

AK: Okay. I stayed in labor and delivery for about 12 years. Then a friend of mine said, "Hey, listen," she said, "we have a lot of fun up in surgery." She says, "I'll help you. So come and work in surgery with us." And this is a small community hospital. So I said well, okay. I felt like I needed a change. I was getting so that I was kind of tired of listening to the women screaming when 00:38:00they were having labor pains. (laughs) But anyway, so I started working in surgery, and I loved it. And I didn't know beans from buns, but I got a book on instruments. And she taught me. And she threw me in with the difficult specialists. And in time, I loved working in surgery. And then I got pregnant and I had a couple of kids and so I gave that up.

And then when I went back to nursing again, I was doing medical surgical work. And then they started the intensive care, cardiac care units in late '60s, early '70s. So I took a course in cardiac nursing and I did that for about another 15 years. And that was kind of where I worked was like medical intensive care. And across the hall was the surgical intensive care. And we worked back and forth. 00:39:00So working in the intensive care unit is very, it's stressful and challenging. But so, you feel like you've really accomplished something when you've kept the person alive and they got well. So that's what I did for my final years, 15 years, working in the coronary care unit, which was like medical intensive care. And sometimes we'd help out with the surgical intensive care where they did the open heart surgeries and such.

LG: Are there any memories that stand out to you that you'd like to share, of certain cases, like just throughout your career?

AK: Certain memories that stand out in my career?

LG: Yes.

00:39:50

AK: Well, (laughs) oh, gosh. Oh, oh, this is interesting. None of the hospitals had a good retirement program for nurses. As a matter of fact, they didn't have 00:40:00any until I believe maybe the nurses in San Francisco, San Francisco, California, objected and said hey, you know, they should have some kind of retirement program for nurses. And so the different hospitals started to do that. But they were not a really, at least where I worked, they were not really adequate. Like the last place that I worked in, they put two thousand dollars in IRA for each year that you worked there. Whereas some of the industries and other businesses, they have a program for their retired people where they get a monthly income of whatever that really adds to their Social Security and is really helpful. But the nurses never had a good retirement program at the different places that I work. So are you a student nurse, did you say?

LG: No. I just work in the history department.

AK: Oh. Are you a registered nurse working in the history department?

LG: Oh, no. I'm just, I'm literally just an interviewer for the UW Archives.

AK: Oh! I'm sorry. I'm making the mistake of assuming that you were either a student nurse or an RN and would know what I'm talking about. But I guess some of this stuff was kind of fuzzy.

LG: No. Please elaborate on any of the technical terms just for the record.

AK: Uh huh. Okay. What was the question? My mind drifted.

LG: Oh, it's all right. So you mentioned, you were just talking about the, I'll just go back to the original question. Are there any memorable moments of your career that you can think of that really stood out to you?

AK: Not really. Except that, this may sound judgmental, but as a nurse, you learn who the really good, dependable, sincere, honest, kind, skilled doctors are, and who aren't. So that I would recommend certain doctors to friends and tell them to avoid others because they just didn't measure up to what I think a good doctor should be. Now we're in that position where we observe very one of the doctors functioning. So we know exactly what their personalities are like 00:43:00and what their skills and capabilities are like, how they treat the patients, and they may be aware of this and maybe they aren't. But we are, the nurses do observe the doctors very closely. So you can go to any hospital and ask a nurse and say, "Listen, I'm looking for a good orthopedic surgeon. Can you just give me the names of three good orthopedic surgeons because I need to have some surgery done." And a nurse will be able to give you, any nurse will probably be able to, [unclear] familiar with the orthopedic surgeons, give you the names of three good doctors. And she'll avoid the ones that you really shouldn't go to because of their personalities or skills or whatever. So that's kind of a powerful position for a nurse. Don't you think?

LG: Oh, absolutely.

00:44:03

AK: Okay. I'm just going to tell you one kind of a sad and funny story, just to give you a laugh for the day.

LG: Sure.

AK: Okay. When I was working on the wards, it was nine in the evening. All the patients had been settled, all the meds had been passed, and they were going to quiet down and chart. And then the emergency department called and said, "Hey, we're sending you an elderly gentleman that was found lying in the gutter." And so we said okay.

And so we prepared the bed for him. And so I was admitting this gentleman. And you know, the hospital sheets are white. And as I was taking his vitals, meaning his temperature, blood pressure, and listening to his heart and chest and all that kind of stuff, I said, you know, "Mr. So and So, do you know where you are?"

And he looked at me and said, "The undertaker's?" (laughs) Isn't that kind of a 00:45:00sad but funny story?

LG: That is funny. So is there anything else you would like people in the future to remember about your time in training at the UW Madison Nursing School?

AK: Well, you know, every girl has their goals on what they want to become, whether it's a physician or a dietitian or a teacher or whatever. But I think going into nursing is very satisfying. And of course you're prepared to live your own living. And for a man to marry a nurse, that's a wise choice. Because I don't know how many times different husbands have asked their nurse wives, "Oh, I've got this. What should I do?" Or the nurse wife could say, "Well, this is 00:46:00happening to you, so you better go get it checked out by the doctor." Whereas they may have ignored it. And I think nurses make the best wives.

But, on the other hand, I've known a lot of sad nurses who married jerks who probably said, oh, marry a nurse. They'll take care of you and they'll earn money and support you. I've had a couple of friends like that who had husbands who took advantage of them that way. But, that's what I got to--(laughs) That's kind of a trite little bit of judgmental (laughs) observation.

LG: And is there anything else that you'd like for the record before I conclude this interview?

00:46:53

AK: I'm grateful that, I'm really grateful, very grateful to the United States government and the cadet nurse program during World War Two. It was a free 00:47:00education. And I'm so grateful because I'm glad that I had this nursing education because I could take care of myself and I could earn a living without depending on someone else. And also help other people if they needed my help. And I made so many wonderful friends. Living in, let me tell you, living in a dormitory at Madison General Hospital at that McConnell Hall, as a graduate on this one wing, most of us we were in our twenties and single and working at Madison General Hospital. We all became very good friends. And they came from all over the different schools. I've kept in touch with many of them. Of course, I lost many of them. But this one gal, she and I became the best of friends. She 00:48:00lives in Florida. I'm 92 and I think she's 91. And we still keep in touch. And so living in a dormitory, some people may frown on it, but for me, I thought it was a great place to make friends and have a family away from your own family. Especially McConnell Hall. I don't know if you've ever been there. If you've ever wandered around Madison General Hospital or wandered around McConnell Hall. It was a beautiful place to live.

Also, when I entered training, Madison General Hospital, I think it was about a 250-bed hospital and it was quite old. And I have a picture of it. And it was just an old red brick building. And today it is this big, beautiful medical 00:49:00center. And as I said in our last reunion, we had a tour of the place. And the funniest thing is, we recognized a black and white linoleum floor and a hallway, I think over by obstetrics, from the old hospital. And we all laughed. And we said, "Remember this crazy linoleum, this black and white? It's still here?!" (laughs)

So have you walked around, have you been around Madison General Hospital and the dormitory?

LG: I personally haven't, but I'm definitely going to after this. It seems like very interesting.

AK: Yeah. I know. Because you work for the university, if anything happened to you, you would go to the Wisconsin General Hospital, of course.

LG: Right.

AK: You know, but I'm proud of Madison General Hospital, that it grew to be such 00:50:00a beautiful medical center. And it's called Meriter, and there used to be another hospital called Methodist. And it was on the other side of town. And it changed its name to Meriter and they combined, these two hospitals combined and formed this I think Meriter Foundation Hospital, or whatever they call it now. So, anyway, progress. And how did you happen to go to University of Wisconsin?

LG: I personally, I also came from California. And my grandfather worked at Madison General Hospital. So kind of a funny overlap.

AK: Your grandfather worked at Madison General Hospital?

LG: Mm hmm.

AK: Oh, in what capacity?

LG: I'm not sure. I'd have to look it back up. But focusing more on you in this interview, is there anything else that you can think of that you'd like to add 00:51:00before I conclude this?

AK: No. Only that I'm glad I became a nurse and I'm grateful for the cadet nurse program and for Madison General Hospital for accepting me and allowing me to stay and finish.

LG: Well wonderful.

AK: So I have wonderful memories of Madison General Hospital and the town of Madison. That is the most beautiful city in the US.

LG: Perfect. Well then, if all is said, then I'll wrap up this interview for today. And together we can also plan if you'd like a follow-up interview and discuss more of the technicalities of publishing this interview.

AK: Okay, sure. And I really sincerely hope you will consider interviewing Fung Wong Scholz. And did I give you her telephone number and address?

LG: Yes. I believe we contacted her.

AK: Yeah. And as I said, the unique thing about us is that we were student nurses during World War Two being educated under the cadet nurse program. And that program only lasted for five years. So there aren't, we are definitely an endangered species, and there aren't many of us left. So our interviews would be just a little different from some of the other graduates that finished later on. Okay?

LG: All right. Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

00:52:39

End First Interview Session (January 25, 2019)

Begin Second Interview Session (July 12, 2019): Digital File

AK: --when they accepted her, she went to the hospital for an interview. And they said, "By the way, there's going to be a Japanese American girl in your 00:53:00class. I hope you two will be able to get along." I don't know what made them ask for that, and she didn't, either. But I think they thought that we were going to clash. At any rate, she was very nice and friendly. And I'm kind of an outgoing person. And so we became friends and we lived next door to each other. We lived up on the fourth floor of Rest Harrow. And the ten of us that lived up there, we all became the closest friends that anyone could make in their lifetime.

Anyway, and so those three years as a student, for me, was the best years of my life. And there we were in this beautiful town of Madison. And I do believe there were three or four lakes around the town of Madison. And I just thought this was the most beautiful city in the whole of the United States. And a friend 00:54:00of mine and I even biked around Lake Mendota. And it took us about three hours. It's a beautiful town, anyway, so I so happy there.

And I'm the kind of a student that if I study hard, I will get good grades. But I like to have fun. And so when I goofed, then of course my grades wouldn't be so good. But I did, I did work hard and get some decent grades there.

But anyway, so after we graduated, I remained. I was working in the obstetrical department when we graduated. And many of the classmates went home to work in hospitals near their homes, or two of them went on to the University of Wisconsin to get their degrees. So we were all scattered. And just a few of us stayed at Madison General.

And I found the subject of obstetrics very interesting. So when our head nurse 00:55:00said that she had been to a six or eight-month obstetrical course at Margaret [Hay?] on the east coast, and another gal that I worked with said that she had been to Chicago Lying-In, which was a six-month course on obstetrics at the Bob Roberts Hospital, part of the University of Chicago. And so I thought well, that's closer, I think I'll go there.

And so I spent six months studying obstetrics at Chicago Lying-In. And I think I learned everything there is possible about the female reproductive system, babies, pregnancies and deliveries and so on. And so I sort of specialized in that for about twelve years. I'm not one of these people that have accomplished 00:56:00a lot or did great things. But because of the course that I took, I feel that what I learned there on how to keep an eye out for dangerous signs for a pregnant woman in labor, I think I spotted things that I notified the doctor about, and so the babies were saved because of what I had learned at that course. And so I was very grateful.

One example was of course in the middle of the night we had some ladies in labor when I was working in Milwaukee. And I could hear that the heartbeat became just a little slower and a little irregular during a labor pain. And I thought now this is not right. Something is not right.

And so I called the doctor in the middle of the night. And they don't like to be bothered in the middle of the night, I know that. And he wasn't happy at first. But then, when I told him the problem, he came right over. And of course they did a C section on the woman. And I think there was something about the umbilical cord. And so each time she had a labor pain, it kind of squeezed the umbilical cord and the baby's heartbeat slowed and got irregular. So things like that that I had learned at this course, I was really grateful. So I did that for about twelve years.

And I moved, I loved Wisconsin. I wanted to stay there. And I think there's an article about me that said that I wanted to snag some man and marry and stay in Madison because it was such a beautiful town. But no one would have me, so I came back to California where I was born. And I worked in labor and delivery.

And then a friend of mine and I, we went to Hawaii to work for a year. Now this 00:58:00is before statehood. And to truly know Hawaii, the customs and the people and all the different ethnic background and their different customs and ideas and feelings about their life there in Hawaii, was so fascinating that the one year that I spent there I felt was very educational, entertaining, and just a colorful year in my life.

Anyway, and I got married and came back to California and then had two boys. And continued to work in nursing. And I worked in obstetrics until a friend said, "Listen. We have more fun in surgery. You've got to come and work with us." So I said okay. And she taught me everything there was to know about working as a surgical nurse. And so I worked. And they made me scrub for some of the 00:59:00grumpiest doctors. (laughs) Anyway. And so I loved working in surgery.

And then I had a couple of kids, so I retired from nursing for a while. Then I went back to nursing. And then, those were the days, I would say the late '60s, when they started to have coronary care units for patients with heart problems. Before, they were just admitted to a medical ward and cared for. But now they had coronary care units. And later it grew into being intensive care units, including other problematic conditions. Anyway, so I took the course in coronary care, and worked in the coronary care unit in a tiny hospital. So I moved over to this large hospital and worked in their coronary care unit. And that one is a 01:00:00fascinating phase of nursing. Challenging. Sometimes scary. Many times rewarding. So that's what I was doing when I finally retired at the age of 63. And then I golfed. I love to golf. And I was never a good golfer. But I love to golf. So I golfed for about 40 years. And so most of my time was spent golfing or playing bridge. I don't know, have you ever played bridge, the card game bridge?

LG: I've heard of it.

00:07:50

AK: And I love to play bridge. And so my life was, my retired life became golf and bridge. And I'm sorry I didn't volunteer and become a productive, resourceful person doing something worthwhile. Instead, it was more like indulging myself with pleasures like golf and bridge and, well, finally I 01:01:00started to clean out the house and things like that. And my boys were already into college, out of college, and out working and such. And so that's my life in nursing. But I missed it for a little while. And the strange thing is that nurses just seemed to recognize each other as a friend, a peer, a fellow nurse. And so it seemed like most of my friends that I have, at least 75 percent to 80 percent of them, are retired RNs. (laughs) And I wonder if that has occurred elsewhere.

And the cadet nurse program, of course, I think I skipped telling you that, the 01:02:00cadet nurse program that my cousin told me about where the government was going to pay our way, pay for the three years of education that we were to have. As long as we agreed to join one of the military services, as long as we were in war, or else stay in civilian service. And of course we all agreed. And then by the time we graduated in 1947, the wars were over. And so we can do as we wanted to. And in a way, I wish I had joined one of the services, because I think we could have traveled to another country. And that would have been a very adventurous, exciting time in one's life.

But anyway, so after the cadet nurses program ended, I think it lasted for about 01:03:00five years, 1943 to about 1948. And then when the war was over, the cadet nurse program, which was initially for the purpose of filling in the staff at different civilian hospitals that lost their nurses into the military service. And some of them were threatened with closure because they lost so much, so many of their nurses. And so we as student nurses, cadet nurses, assumed a lot of responsibility that I don't think that the student nurse has to assume today.

But anyway, so, probably in the '90s, yes, about the early '90s or late '80s, two of my friends at the golf course were also former cadet nurses. So we said, hey, listen, we're a dying breed. Why don't we have a reunion and see how many 01:04:00cadet nurses we can dig up around here? And living here in the Bay Area near San Francisco and Berkeley and this area. So we had an article in the newspapers. And some of the other newspapers picked it up. And we had lunch at this restaurant and 56 former cadet nurses turned out. And there were tables out in the hallway. And it was such a rewarding--and one of the girls brought the entire uniform, from hat to purse to raincoats and just everything. And a model. And dress the model in a former cadet nurse uniform. And that was really a treat for everyone to see.

Anyway, and one gal who lived about 50 miles away said, "I just heard about it 01:05:00this morning. I jumped in the car and came over here just to be part of this gathering." And so that was, I would say, one of the most successful events that the three of us cooked up. So all these cadet nurses from around the Bay Area here. And then I got calls from some former cadet nurses from like Oregon, Nebraska, and New York. And they said, "Hey, someone sent me a news article about what you guys did. And tell me about it."

So I said, "Listen, you could do the same thing, too. Just advertise in your local paper that, you know, the cadet nurses get together and have a reunion." And I think it would have been a good 50 years since they all were students and 01:06:00cadet nurses. So I don't know if those gals that I suggested that to did it or not, but anyway, it makes me smile every time I think about how success that reunion turned out to be. When they all turned out and we all had stories to tell. And I don't think anyone remembers what we had for lunch. Because we were having such a good time reminiscing and listening to everyone's stories about the different experiences that they had.

And so that's my career as a nurse. And I'm telling you, things have become so technical. And nursing is a big challenge for someone, an oldster like me, with all these old fashioned nursing ideas still in my head. And most of the nursing 01:07:00has changed so much. For instance, patients were given bed baths and really cleaned up, and given exercises and really treated personally by the nurses individually. Today, I think it's more like the nurses are looking in the computer, and I don't think they even give them bed baths. And it's like, okay, get up and get going kind of an attitude now. And then they're released from the hospital in much fewer days than they used to stay after a major surgery or any kind of serious illnesses. So, that's all I have to say.

LG: Great. You answered a lot of my questions. I really only have two then. So my first question would be, as a cadet nurse, like while the war was going on, did you talk about that at all with your peers? Like in school? Or was it just kind of in the background?

00:15:32

AK: Well, no, we did. And many of us had brothers in the service. And so you know, we did say, some would say, "I want to join the navy." Some would say, "The army's okay," or the air force. We did talk about it briefly. But other than that, it was all, you know, we were teenagers. Eighteen, nineteen, and then on into twenty before we turned twenty-one and finished and became graduates. So you know, most of our subjects are on lots of other things than just men, and 01:09:00our objections of all the authority in the school. Other than that, I guess it was just a brief conversation about what military service we would join when we finished.

LG: Did a lot of your peers join the military service? Or did most of them stay domestic?

AK: Gosh, you know, I don't think any of them, well, because the war ended before we finished--

LG: Oh, right.

AK: --many of them got married after they finished. And two of them went on to the University of Wisconsin to get their degrees. We were all so happy to finally earn some money after pinching pennies. Of course, the government gave us a stipend of, the first year it was 15 dollars a month. And then it went to 01:10:0020, and then it went to 30. So when we finished, we were so happy to be earning some money. Me, especially, that although I wanted to join the service, I didn't. I wanted to just make some money and spend it. But I wish I had joined one of the military services. Because as I said, it would have been an additional education and travel opportunities and who knows? And--

LG: And so--sorry. Continue.

00:18:01

AK: What else?

LG: Oh, I was just going to say--oh, shoot, I forgot. I should have written it down. I guess you've really answered almost all of my questions that I had 01:11:00written down beforehand. But was there anything else that you'd want to mention kind of about your life at school? I know you mentioned a lot of how your nursing career really evolved. But anything about being a student at Madison General?

AK: As I said, those three years at Madison General as a student nurse with all those wonderful classmates were the best three years of my life. And we were very fortunate. The food was fantastic. And we had very nice rooms. And of course we had a good healthcare. And the town of Madison, as I said, was such a beautiful town that we could walk in any direction and you'd run into a lake or 01:12:00something. Just beautiful. So I truly enjoyed those three years as a student nurse. And we all became very close friends. You know, most of us.

And you know, my friend, the Chinese-American girl, her name was Fung Wong, anyway, she and I got together and we worked in Milwaukee and shared an apartment. And she worked in a different hospital. I was working at the maternity pavilion of the Lutheran hospital. And we went to Marquette University. Let's see, trying to work towards our degree. We'd go to work in the daytime and then go to school from like four to six, I guess. And they have a special program for working nurses working towards a degree. So we did that for a year. And then she got married, and moved out. And I couldn't afford this 01:13:00apartment that we shared. And so I think some of my friends from work were going to California, so I said, well, I think I'll go to California, too. And so that ended my hopes of getting a degree in nursing, you know, to get a bachelor's degree in nursing.

LG: Would that have like changed any of your career? Or was it just kind of an addition for your own personal kind of benefit?

AK: That's right, it was. It was just kind of a personal goal because no matter where I worked, and I worked in several different hospitals, the degreed nurses did not get better positions or more pay or anything like that. It was more tenure, seniority, among the nurses that counted. And so as you said, it was 01:14:00just a personal goal. The best way to have done it would have been to go to a five-year nursing program at a college, at a university or something. And that way, you know, you get it all done while you're a student, and you didn't have to do it while you were working. But that's gone. (laughs) I guess it was on the bucket list, you might say. But it faded.

LG: Well, is there anything else that you'd like to add? You really did, again, answer all of my questions. So if there's anything you'd like to add. Otherwise, 01:15:00we can conclude the follow-up interview.

AK: Well, I'll tell you. Being a nurse is really a plus. Because number one, you can get a job anyplace! I mean, I worked in Hawaii and I worked in Illinois, and you know, there are, there was a time when they did have restrictions as to where you had your nursing education. For instance, two registered nurses from Illinois came to work at Madison General Hospital. And the authorities, the state board, did not accept their scores from the state boards given in Illinois. And they had to take something like nutrition and pharmacology over 01:16:00again and take those tests to meet the criteria of the Wisconsin state board. So you know, that seemed like it wasn't fair. But then other states waivered that. And they said, okay. And fortunately, I think graduating from a school in Wisconsin was acceptable in any state in the United States. And so when I came to California, you know, they accepted my credentials from Wisconsin. But I think they did away with that. So as I said, being a nurse is a plus. You can get a job just about any place.

And even though you were grateful to have this vocation, profession, bit of nursing education that allowed you to work anyplace, people respected nurses for 01:17:00some reason. They'd say, "Oh, you're a nurse? Oh, you're a teacher?" Or something like that. If you said, "I'm a dietician," they'd say, "Oh, what do you do?" "Oh, well, I plan meals for the hospital," or something. They'll think, well, that sounds boring. (laughs) But as I said, nurses got special respect. And I think, when we bought our house, we were told by the bank that when the bank gave a loan to a couple to buy a home, they only took in the husband's earnings, career possibilities and then considered whether you would be eligible 01:18:00for a loan or not. Except if the wife was a nurse or a schoolteacher. So that was back in the '50s. You know, that sounds antiquated, doesn't it?

LG: (laughs) A bit.

00:25:27

AK: Huh?

LG: A bit antiquated, yes.

AK: Yeah. But anyway, that's the way it was, you know, in those years back then. Seventy years ago, for heaven's sake. Anyway, and being in this profession, I met some of the most wonderful people as fellow nurses. Or maybe a patient. And some doctors that were outstanding in their field. And you just, like I had open heart surgery and I had one of the best chest surgeons I guess nationally known. 01:19:00And I was so grateful. And he was very, very special. He was from Norway. And he was such a nice, nice person. And so you meet doctors of all level of quality and personalities. And it's really very interesting how, I wish I could advise the doctors that it's very important that you do not dress sloppily when you visit your patients. And that you should treat the patients with respect and kindness.

And the nurses with respect and kindness. Because if you're a doctor that comes onto the ward and is sort of authoritative and not so kind and considerate, then 01:20:00the nurses will ignore you and won't do the little special things to make your presence comfortable. I don't think the doctors realize that. (laughs) But it's true. Because the nurses hold this power of making it comfortable for a doctor or not. For instance, if he's one of these grumpy old bossy, put down kind of a physician, the nurses will not get up and get his charts for him. And they will not get up from their chair and give him their chair for him to sit down to write their progress notes or anything like that. And they won't get up and say, "Okay, I'll go tell the patient that you're here," and kind of get her ready. They would totally ignore him. And if they only knew that if they would treat 01:21:00the nurses with a little more respect and kindness, they will receive that in return.

And as I said, the doctors, you know, many of them do dress, you can dress casually and still look neat. But I remember some of them came to see their patients looking like they just finished cleaning up their yard at home or something like that. And I thought, now I don't think the patient appreciates that. At least, you know, we didn't appreciate seeing the doctor looking so kind of grungy. (laughs) Now that's kind of shallow, and it's just a trite little thought, but it's a fact. That's about all I have to say.

LG: Well I appreciate your time, and allowing me to follow up with you on the original interview. And I will, I'm sure you'll get something in the mail or we'll be contacting kind of everyone, since we're kind of nearing, close kind of to the end. But we'll be in contact with you about where this is going and I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.

29:39

End Second Interview Session

Total time = 83 minutes