Interview with Jay Katelansky

Sophia Abrams 0:04

All right, this is Sophia Abrams interviewing Jay Katelansky. Today's date is June 5, 2021. It is 12:06 PM Central time. I'm currently in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and she is in Oakland, California. And today's interview is for the UW Black Artists Project. So my first question for you is why UW Madison?

Jay Katelansky 0:31

So I chose UW because my professor in undergrad at Moore College of Art and Design, his name is Joseph Leroux, he went to UW. So when it was time for me to apply to grad school, most of my class-- like, most of my classmates weren't going to grad school at all, like it wasn't, you know, in their plans at the moment. And I couldn't think of anything else I wanted to do, but go to grad school. And I was already applying to like seven schools, and he was just like, you should apply to UW. He was like, you know, it's not the best place for a Black person. But also they have a lot of money in diversity scholarship. So I mean, honestly, I chose UW because they gave me a full ride. And none of the other schools I applied or got into, were able to offer me as much money. And that was just a huge factor. Like I didn't want to be in debt from grad school.

Sophia Abrams 1:32

So kind of from that, what were your impressions of UW prior to becoming, or prior to coming to Madison?

Jay Katelansky 1:42

So I'm friends with a lot of poets. And so a lot of these poets had actually gone through First Wave or were at First Wave. So before we even going in, I had followed several of them on social media, like before I even was thinking of going like I just so happened to follow them on social media. And I remember when the incident happened on fraternity row with the black Spider Man hanging from one of the fraternity houses. I remember seeing it on social, like I remember people talking about it. So that was kind of, that was kind of my introduction to UW before going to UW. And my undergrad was an all women small college of maybe 500 students in total, like smack dab in Philadelphia. So I also knowing that UW was a huge college, I can only think about like what I saw in television, since I've never had the experience of being on a giant campus. Yeah, so I just kind of thought like what I saw in movies, also with like what I saw on social from other Black students who were in undergrad at UW. So I didn't 00:03:00have the best sort of idea of UW before coming. I just knew that it's a full ride. It's a college. It's one of the best research programs, and I just yeah, I was just like, you know what, I'm just going to go do it. It's gonna be fine.

Sophia Abrams 3:21

So then, from that, then you start UW in August of, if I have the date, correct? Is it 2014?

Jay Katelansky 3:33

Ah, it's been so long and not that long. I think it was. I think it was 2013. Yeah, I think it's 2013 because I was there from 2013 to 2016. And it's a three year program.

Sophia Abrams 3:49

Gotcha.

Jay Katelansky 3:50

Yeah.

Sophia Abrams 3:51

So what was that first week of school like for you?

Jay Katelansky 3:57

So the first week, also not a great impression within the first week of me being there. I got stopped by police officer. I was walking. I think I was walking from the grocery store because I had groceries in hand. I'm listening to music and I kind of see out of my peripheral that a car is behind me going really slow. And I mean, I think I just thought like, it was just a normal car. Maybe I was about to be cat called, like something that I guess, you know, more than I'm used to being at play, you know, just coming from Philly. And then I turn and it's the police car. So I'm just like, okay, new in town. I really don't know where anything is. I don't, you know, so. I, you know, I stopped because I felt like I was supposed to even though I'm not in a car, but I just feel like if a police officer was, like, trailing you, like, I feel like I don't know at the time why I stopped, I probably wouldn't have stopped now. And he just started to ask me, he started asking me questions if I was begging for money. And said that it was crazy that I looked just like the person that they just got a call about who was harassing people and asking for money. And he kept trying to take me to, to the women's shelter. Like he kept trying to convince me that I was homeless that I and I'm like, I mean, not that homeless. You know, not that homeless people don't have groceries, not that homeless people don't have like an iPhone, but I like I was like, "No, I was just getting the groceries, like listening to music, like trying to like, I guess, like validate that, like, I was a person going to school." I'm like, "No, like, I pay for a very expensive apartment on the lake. Like, I'm brand new here. Like I just was coming from my studio." And he just like kept being like, are you sure you don't want me to take you to the women's shelter? And like this is before Sandra Bland. Like this is years before Sandra Bland and like to think about it in hindsight. I don't really know anything about Wisconsin. Like not like, I didn't know anything about their history or anything about like the racial tensions or besides being in middle of 00:06:00America. Yeah, so I just like kept being like, "Nope, I'm fine. Nope, I'm fine. Nope, I'm fine." So that was like the first incident. And then also, without really knowing anything about Wisconsin, I got an apartment right off of fraternity row, which I didn't really think about, I didn't know. And I had met a few undergrads in First Wave who were like, we know you're here. Let us show you the ropes. And they were like, if you ever want someone to walk home with, like, let us know. And in my brain, I'm like, I just came from Philly, where I would leave my studio in downtown Philly and walk to West Philly by myself at three o'clock in the morning and, like, felt completely safe. So I'm just like, which apparently wasn't that safe. But I'm like, I don't think I need a walk down the street, like in Wisconsin. But they were like very adamant about and they were Black women and they were like, "Hey, no, seriously, like, if you ever want or feel like you need someone to walk you home. Please don't hesitate". And then I'm starting to put things together like, maybe this isn't as safe as I thought it was. And yes, that was my first week in Wisconsin.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 7:30

So from those incidents, then what was it like to have that but then go in the studio and start creating work? What were some of the first pieces that you were making at that time?

Jay Katelansky 7:44

I think the first piece I put on my wall was, it's a quote from House on Mango Street. And it's like, the quote is like "all brown, all around we safe, but...." I think like when the white there's something about like, you know, being in a neighborhood of all brown people like you're safe, but like the moment that white people come. So like I have put on my wall like all black all around we safe, and then it was like a house. And it was like made out of tape. That was like the first piece that I put on the wall just to kind of like, I guess, I guess adjust to being you know, going from Philadelphia to all, all of a sudden being in Wisconsin, like I went straight from undergrad straight to grad school. I had, like, you know, like two months off before I went, you know, I moved. So it was like a, Yeah, a huge lesson. That was like one of the first pieces I've made. From there, I started making paintings that really didn't have to deal with what was going on around me. Yeah, I didn't start making, I guess, like more work based off a race until I feel like it wasn't until my second year 00:09:00in Wisconsin.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 9:06

From that, were there any notable professors or peers who you met your first year who kind of stick out to you as maybe people who influenced you? Or maybe people who challenged your work?

Jay Katelansky 9:20

I mean, I loved all my professors. I thought they were all fantastic. There was Nancy, I'm gonna butcher her last name, Mladenoff. She was really great. There's Fred Stonehouse, also really great. Um, I started working with Leslie my first year and he's an incredible painter, also a Black man. So like that was helpful. Um, yeah, I work with Jennifer Angus in the textiles department. She was fantastic. She just, you know, I think for some reason, I think the Black women that were grad school in the arts, like they gravitated towards Jennifer Angus, and she was really adamant about connecting all of us with each other. I think she even though she was a white woman from Canada, she really understood like, I think community and how important it was for Black students to, you know, know each other. Um, ya no, I mean, my professors were great. lso Jill Casid, who was my queer theory professor. I mean, she was incredible as well.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 10:35

From like, your professors, and I guess outside of class, were there any like groups, where you kind of found community? I know that you kind of mentioned the First Wave kids or cohort in our pre-interview? Can you kind of talk about that? Or maybe other communities you sought out?

Jay Katelansky 10:55

Yeah, so I'm in my grad program, and I was one of the younger grad students, you know, I mean, painting my painting department, you know, there was only six of us, in my year, that I think in total, like, there is probably less than 20 in painting specifically, which is what my major was. And I mean, I was the youngest. I mean, yeah, I was, you know, I was freshly like, what, like, 22, in grad school. Yeah, there's people in my cohort are married with children, or just married or getting married. And were just, you know, a bit older. So and then within the grad program, in total, there was like, maybe three or four of us that were like fresh out of grad school, like a whole Fine Art Department. So because I mean, my, like, the way in which the art building structure and the way in which our classes are structured, we didn't build community with each 00:12:00other, like we didn't have, we didn't really have like a cohort class, like that brought us together. And we didn't have, like, we didn't have like critiques like weekly critique, or anything. So we just kind of were on our own. And within the building that my studio was in, I mean, like everyone, you know, it's 24 hours, you can come whenever you want, people are on various schedules. And so like, you kind of just like, you know, it might be when you're in the studio by yourself for hours. And because their doors and locks and painting is a very, kind of a private practice, whereas like, there's other art majors that are more, you know, integrated. So like printmaking, a lot of, you know, a lot of times, like, it's a more open studio plan, you end up sharing supplies with people, you might need someone's help doing something just because of the nature of printmaking, whereas painting is a personal practice, you don't, it's just you. So I think a lot of people, you know, obviously, you know, like that, like having a studio, being able to shut the door, listen to music, but I came from an all women's college that like you, you knew everybody like for four years, you see the same 500 faces, like you are in the same classes with people from your major for the next two years and crit groups. It's very community based. So I because I knew a lot of poets and musicians already beforehand that happened to be in Wisconsin, like I met people before I even got to school. And they were like, you know, just let us know, within like the first week, people from First Wave started taking me out to introduce me to other people. And I mean, yes, they were an undergrad. But I was also just an undergrad. So it didn't feel like a huge leap of age. Yeah, and First wave just really accepted me and introduced me to a bunch of people and it felt like a community and it's also where all the brown and Black people were.

Sophia Abrams 14:17

That's really nice to hear a lot of people who I interview talk about First Wave I mean, some of the kids-- well now, I think First Wave does accept visual artists as well. So there's-- the cohorts kind of widened as well, which I think is great. Going off of that, so before we jump to your second year, are there any other maybe notable pieces or exhibitions or anything worthwhile that you want us to cover?

Jay Katelansky 14:44

Ah, no, I think my first year and you know, my first year was very much as me trying to figure sort of what I was making like I wasn't honestly like, I feel like I didn't make much my first year like I feel like I spent a lot of time utilizing The libraries like, which was one of my favorite things about UW. Just 00:15:00the amount of books I could check out and the fact that any book I would want, they would get for me it was it was pretty awesome. And I think I just spent really my first year just taking a bunch of classes and just yeah, reading as much as I possibly could.

Sophia Abrams 15:22

Going off of that, what kinds of research or classes were you taking if you remember at that time?

Jay Katelansky 15:30

Yeah, so I mean, I was taking queer theory, with Jill Casid, I was taking. I mean, I was like, one of the classes I think that stood out the most to me, my first year, I'm pretty sure I took in my first year. And other than that, I honestly can't really remember the classes that I took. Because I think they were mostly like, within my major, like, I think I did my first year, I was just trying to bang out all of the requirement classes. So I think like. I'm trying to remember I feel like it's really hard because I took a theater class, but I don't think I took the theater class until my second year, or maybe, I'm trying to think. Yeah, I'm not. I took a theater class, which is really strange for me, but I don't. I think it might have been in my first year. I'm not sure I'm like blanking on it. But if it wasn't my first year that theater with [Rhodesa Jones,] was way out of my comfort zone. But I think also good for me to get out of my comfort zone.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 16:41

No, that makes sense, and no worries, too. So now we're gonna jump into your second year. I know that this is the year that you had your MA show "In the Search of Phantom." So perhaps you can talk about what it was like to lead up to that show. And I guess well, prior to, did anything notable happen the summer between your first and second year?

Jay Katelansky 17:08

This summer, between my first and second year, I picked up and left to Berlin. And to London. I just I needed a break from Wisconsin, I felt like I was having a creative block. Yeah, and my friend just happened to be taking a course in Berlin. So I was like, okay, cool, I'll just join you in Germany. And I was just, like, I know that you're like, I know that Berlin. And I was also in London. And I know, these places have, like, a history of racial tension. Like I know, like, while I was in Berlin, there was an uprising with African refugees who wanted to occupy this space, and they were occupying it for a while. And I think something was shifting in government and about, you know, they decided 00:18:00that they wanted to make a like, a wide statement, and they use this one, you know, like, I think it was like old school that no one was, you know, living in, or they wanted to make an example of it, I think, prove their power. But as a Black American walking around in Berlin, like I just, I felt normal, which is not how I felt my first year in Wisconsin, like, it was a huge adjustment. So like, it was just, I don't know, like, I existing and not being looked at like an alien all the time. It was really nice. And like, reminds me that like this, this place, like Wisconsin is like a lot of places in the world, but it's not every place in the world.

Sophia Abrams 18:55

That's really interesting and cool that you went to Berlin and London. I'm curious if like, those two cities directly influenced you in any way? Or maybe like, after going there, you had kind of a change of thought about how you approached your art?

Jay Katelansky 19:14

Um, I don't know if like anything directly happened that made me think about it. But I think it's just like the experience of traveling. I think that, you know, that was my first time. That was my first time, I think, yeah, that was, I think that was one for some really leaving the country by myself as an adult, like without going like on a family vacation or anything. And like, I don't know, I just knew my friend in Berlin and I had a friend in London, but I didn't know that's it. Like, I didn't have a set itinerary. I just went and I stayed in a hostel in Berlin, where it was like coed hostel, and it was a 12 bed hostel. So every like two or three days like I had 12 like seven or eight new coed roommates from all different places of the world. I don't know, I think it's just, you know, just traveling and itself and meeting new people, and seeing art, like, I don't know, like, you know, I don't I can't pinpoint something specifically that, you know, influence the work. But I think all of that influences sort of how you make.

Sophia Abrams 20:20

So then I'm curious. So once you come back and start Madison, again, and obviously you've had a year in Wisconsin, so you kind of understand the terrain, but perhaps did you like change anything about your routine, or like, I guess you just understood Madison better. So how was starting your second year?

Jay Katelansky 20:43

Starting my second year was rough. I remember coming back on the I forget what the name of the bus but I remember, like landing on the bus in front of in front of the, the Museum, and I was just like, I was so upset, like, I think I've 00:21:00cried on my walk home. Like, I was just like, I don't want to be here. Like I just after being able just to walk the streets and not really think about it to all of a sudden, like being hyper aware of my Blackness, hype aware of the way that I look, and hyper aware of my surroundings. Like, I was just like, I just don't want to do it. Like, I, you know, like, within my first year, I in Wisconsin, like, I learned, like, just like things that I didn't know, I had to do, like when I walk on the sidewalk, like, don't let herds of white kids push you like I didn't ever happen. Like, I grew up in white school, like I went to, you know, I went to like a white elementary school, I was raised by my white father, like, I've been in, like, very, very white situations, but I think I hadn't been in a white, you know, I went to a Black high school, like a majority of Black High School. So I haven't been in a white, like, and I went to a fairly pretty white undergrad. Because it was, you know, as a private art school, like it was mostly white kids, but I don't know, it was something different. Like, I think it's like, I think it's like paired with a college mentality. And, like fraternity culture, and sports and drinking, like, it just changes, like, you know, like, I was my first week there. Like, when I met Black women, they were like, no, don't let them push you like, stick out your elbows and continue walking. So like, all of a sudden, like, going from a different country, that I've never been to, and like, you know, just like meeting all these people. And then like, you know, being in like nightclubs at like three o'clock in the morning until like, I like not worrying about my body, like not thinking about it and not thinking about safety. And then all of a sudden coming back to the place that I've already been for a year and i have, two more years, and then all of a sudden being like, I don't feel safe. My body doesn't feel safe. And I don't, the only people who understand that are the other black kids. And no one you know, I can't talk to anyone in my cohort. And my professors are great, but majority of them are white. Like, also like they, you know, they also don't understand it. So yeah, that was kind of like how I felt when I came back. Like, I was like, I don't want to be here. I don't feel great about it. And I was angry.

Sophia Abrams 23:36

No, that's understandable. And unfortunately, that's a really prevalent theme in my project from a lot of people. So then from that, do any pieces stick out that you made your first semester of your second year?

Jay Katelansky 23:53

Yeah. So I mean, I have my MA show, which was super important. One of the other pieces that I think was super important, and some piece that I made with Alex 00:24:00Jackson and which was a collaboration. We were thinking about Black death, and it was a recent. It was a recent non-indictment that happened and we were really, really upset about it, like we were. We were angry, upset, hurt. I think like, I mean, I can't speak for Alex, so I won't. So I was hurt. I was angry. I felt isolated. And I didn't really know what to do about it. And, you know, me and Alex, because we were Black artists, individual artists and we were the only ones you know, naturally you gravitate towards each other because community and that's just sort of, you know, what happens in these spaces. And we had very similar characters is like I had, I started working on like this idea of Phantom Negro, which is like a mythical entity, who is neither a man or a woman or person, hero or villain, it was sort of I was, I was trying to work around my feelings, I guess how I felt in Wisconsin and how I couldn't really establish identity. So I built another identity that didn't have to actually play with identity, if that makes sense. And we decided to make a piece like, Alex had this epoxied sweatshirt that he, like, he dipped in epoxy so that it held its form. So it had the, it was a black hoodie. And it had it's hands in the positions of like, the hands up, don't shoot. And he epoxied it. So it held its shape, like it didn't need a body. So you know, give this gesture of hands up. And you can look at it and just know exactly what it's saying, without a person being in there, without a sign telling you like, "hands up, don't shoot." It's a really powerful piece. And I was even more powerful, powerful when he he decided to flip it. So rather it being upright, it was upside down, which I think it just, it just changed the whole entire language like sort of like less. For me, it felt like that. I can't really explain what it does. But just the flipping of it really changed sort of the whole feel of the piece. And then under so he hung that from as a Humanities Building. So it's like a bridge, I guess. So it hung. And it was suspended from the from the floor, like it like it gave like at least like, I feel like four feet from the ground. And on the ground, I put tape text 00:27:00that says "Black, Be Nimble, Black Be Quick, Black Be Dead, White Magic Trick," thinking like about how, you know, all of these Black people just like keep getting killed by white people. And it's just, no one does anything. Like it's just, it gets completely wiped off the grid.

It's like, nothing ever happened. It's like every, like, they just disappeared into the ether. And it's just like, we move on to the next Black person who disappears in the ether. And these white people just like, they just get to go about their day. Like it was like nothing like they just snap their fingers and Black people disappear like slavery, like, like, it's terrible. And it's like we it's and it's even worse now. Like, I think the social media, it's like every day we get a new one. And it's it's hard to keep up. It's hard to keep up with the long list of names that just keep entering this, like this pool of people that white people have taken before their time for no reason whatsoever. And yeah, I was pissed off about it. And I didn't want to be in Wisconsin when it was happening. Especially because, you know, there's this whole idea that Wisconsin super liberal, and Madison is very liberal. And it was like, no one wants to talk about like no, like, this is literally can be anywhere like this isn't necessarily like anywhere else. So you know, just like Milwaukee, like just the history of racial history is so bad in Wisconsin, like the the amount of prisons in Wisconsin, like learning how many prisons are Wisconsin is is crazy. Like, like learning the racial disparities in Wisconsin is crazy, like, and no one really wants to talk about it, because they're just like, Madison, It's liberal. And I'm like, Oh, it's not. But yeah, so that was like one of the that was like, basically, I guess the pivotal piece to it, like start off my second year.

Sophia Abrams 29:03

No, I that piece is really powerful. And when I was doing my research, I think the Daily, one of the newspapers, student newspapers , I know wrote about it as well. So I'm curious, too, if you could talk a little bit about how students in the community responded to it.

Jay Katelansky 29:23

Yeah, so the piece didn't stay up very long, it was taken down. The police were called. We like within the first hour, we were already talking to police officers. And it was like, it was kind of a big deal. Like, you know, we posted on social. You know, like a like a bunch of people saw it a bunch of people you know, like I guess you know resonated with it, but then there's like a whole other you know, like, because it's on social like we got trolls we got people like I don't understand this, but this is not the right place. Um, I got a joint 00:30:00email from a woman in my, in my cohort like she wasn't in the painting department, but she was. She was in the art department we came in at the same time. I thought we were cool. And her and her partner sent me like a joint email. And it was like, really terrible. Like, it was just like, you know, I hope you're doing well. We, you know, we saw your piece. And, you know, we, you know, we assume you're talking about Ferguson, but we don't, yeah, we think you should have put it like in the police office, like in front of like, the police department or whatever, and not at the Humanities Building. Because, I mean, what does the Humanities Building have to do with Ferguson? Um, and it was like, really? Like, I was just like, Okay, first of all, like, you know, where my studio is, you also, like, know how to reach me like this, like weird email telling me, like, you know, you know, you assume it's about Ferguson. So you don't even know what the piece is about. But you're assuming that it's about something, and you, as a white person, are telling two Blacks, you know, like, I'm in the same grad program as you. So like, I'm at the same education level as you, Alex Jackson, I think at this point, like, I don't know if he was accpected to Yale yet, but like, he was killing it in undergrad for painting. Everyone knew he was going far. Like, you know, he is extremely talented, extremely smart. Like, and it was like, you just denounced us like, we were in kindergarten, and you are a teacher or something, and you're telling us how we should make our work without even having like a conversation. And that happened often, like, I got really weird thing where people were like, we think you should do this, this and this, but like, that's not a constructive criticism. Like, I'm all for critique, like, I'm all for it, you know, talking about it. But it was like a very dismissive email to the point that like, when all of the racial stuff was happening this year. And like, you know, everyone was, you know, all these people were like, "We're woke! We, you know, we support Black lives." And this is like, I emailed her. Like, I think I had saw something that she wrote, like, you know, Black Lives Matter. And I was like, "hey, like, I know, this is, you know, really long overdue, but I still think about that email you sent me five years ago, and I was really hurt by it. It really ruined my experience at Madison, because I, you know, like, I thought we were cool. Like, I thought we were all on the same like level. And I, you know, I never thought I was unapproachable. And like, just when you sent this email telling me about my 00:33:00work without having conversation, it was dismissive. And it really made the rest of my experience at Madison tainted." And like she apologized, you know, said all this stuff. And I'm just like, it's the fact that like, and she was like, you know, I've been thinking about it. And I've always wanted to reach out, but it's like the fact that like, it's four or five years later, and I still think about that email, even getting me in politics, I still think about that email, like, I still remember it verbatim. And it's just like, that is what it's like to be a Black person. Like, we hold on to all of this stuff that white people say to us, and academia makes us feel like we're not educated, or we don't belong. Like I was there on a full-ride, like, people knew I was on scholarship, but like that also made people think I was only there because I was Black. Not you know, not that I deserved it. Not that like, you know, I want accolades in undergrad, not that I worked my butt off like, nothing. It was just, she's Black. And she got the funding, like, and we're scrambling like and I'm just like, you guys don't really understand how hard it is to be a Black person in a predominantly white institution. It's torture, like, it's terrible.

But like, you know, our professors were super supportive of the piece like they were like, if you need anything, let us know like we support you like we didn't vandalize property that's like basically why the police had called us initially because they didn't understand the piece so they wanted to make well. At least that's how they framed it. They wanted to make sure that we didn't ruin property. But we didn't that you know, the tape that I use pulled right up the sweatshirt on hooks like it you know, it was it was so easy to be taken down that someone took a job within 45 minutes of it even being up. But yeah, like, yeah, so professors were awesome about it. Students were confused about it. But the black community and the brown community, I think really appreciated it.

Sophia Abrams 35:17

No, that's really interesting. And I think that just speaks to, like, when I saw it was still like, super relevant. And you know, like, the discourse that continued to happen as a result of that with like, the email, you just kind of like see the nuance of it, and how, like, there's so much that we can all learn from that piece. Going off of that, can you talk a little bit about your MA show?

Jay Katelansky 35:46

Yeah, so I, you know, I was really thinking about Black death and safety, and sort of, you know, reading all of these fiction books and, like, fiction really 00:36:00drives my practice. Like, I like to read Black authors who create worlds and I think, it's, it's a way that I can escape out of my own head, it's where I can really extensively thinking about making work and I don't really, like I don't really remember, like, what made me decide to do the Phantom Show. I think I just like thinking about it so much. And I just really, really wanted to explore it. So I'm just like, okay, like, like, let's just think like, like phantom, I'm like, What would phantom be doing? What would Phantom be wearing? What would phantom be listening to? What would phantom have been eating? And I kind of just tried to, you know, maneuver as this character that I built, I was planning my MA show, we already had the set day, I was making, you know, all of these pieces, like thinking about survival, so and then like, the week before my show goes up, I was one of the First Wave's open mics, I forget what it's called, but um, it happens like I think once a month, and it is like a bunch of, you know, people coming doing open mics, there's normally like a host and I think there's like, always a feature and you know, we're all in this room. It's all you know, it's safe. It's all Black and brown, there's also white people there obviously, but it's just it's a safe space of community you know, it's going to be a good night You know, it's going to be laughter You know, like, and it was like a warm day that day like I remember like me and my friends were going to First Wave but we stopped at that ice cream so we're like eating ice cream on the way to like open mic and we're like you know, we're just enjoying this warm day in Wisconsin knowing that we have this thing to go to, and we get to this event and like, middle of the event like you see people on their phones and everyone starts like whispering and then all of a sudden it makes an announcement how Tony Robinson was shot and we're in a room full of Black people like and I'm gonna announce it that like the someone in our community a Black person's been shot and like I, you know, I don't know I don't remember if at this point we knew that he died or like we just knew he was shot and from there we all pick up when we go to the courthouse like and it was kind of like everything just. Yeah, I don't know like we're doing all this stuff and like I'm into like I'm also thinking about my show and like the next day like I have to pick up the cake for my MA show and the cake has a black man on it. Like it was supposed to you know thinking about like the shirts that we made in high school and middle school of like when a 00:39:00Black person dies you get them airbrushed on your shirt and so I got the image on a cake and like I you know I had already picked up balloons that say like "Won't you celebrate?" you know, based on a [ LucilleClifton] poem]. Like "won't you celebrate because every day something tried to kill me and failed". And it's just like the here's this Black person who was existing and can't celebrate because he was killed so like I'm already thinking about all this mourning and death and then someone dies and it's just like as a Black person in a PWI who's getting an MA, you just have to stuff it all inside and just keep working like no one asks you like, are you okay? Like, do you need a mental break like, I understand you are a Black person who has just experienced a death in your community, like, do you need an extension? Do you know, do you want to go later? Like, it's just like, you know, like no conversations about it, which I think was helpful anyway, because I think the show really helped people who, like were in mourning. And I think it really did open the conversation of race, because so many times they're like, it's Madison, like, it's not gonna happen here. And then it was like, no, it did happen here. And it just happened here. And I think I, you know, from talking to people, people had said that, like, you know, this resonated with them, like, I know, some of my some, like a woman in my, who she was a year above me in painting, she brought the class that she was teaching to the, to the show to really, you know, undergrads to come and look at it. And I just remember like, that seemed to resonate with them really well, like, I think, yeah, I think it just was something that people needed to see or needed to be in experience to heal.

Sophia Abrams 41:14

No, that's really powerful. And I think, just like the themes from it, it's, I guess, going off of that I kind of one theme I'm, I've been asking people is, you know, black artists are often kind of forced to make inherently black art. And I was just curious for you. In some ways, your pieces are like, inherently black, just based on who you are. But did you ever, like find tension? Or like, if you weren't making something? Did you feel like you had a choice to kind of deviate? Or did you feel like you've kind of had to make that I'm just kind of curious.

Jay Katelansky 41:58

Yeah, I feel like I had to make it like, I feel what I learned post grad school, 00:42:00like I was in a very reactive making space, like, you know, something would happen. And I would react, and I would make something and I didn't really have a chance to just make , I felt like I owed it, like, I felt like, things were happening. And I didn't have a way to talk about it. And I felt like I had to make the work. And then I felt like, you know, for my MFA Show, like, once I found out, you know, and once I found out that I, you know, I got the Chazen Show, I knew at that moment, it didn't matter, like the MFA Show is like supposed to show off, like everything you've learned like it, you know, it's supposed to be a show that, you know, showcases your talents. And I was like, it doesn't matter, like my talents really doesn't matter, like the MFA shows normally happen in the Art Lofts Building or the Humanities Building. And no one goes to the Art Lofts Building unless if you're an art student, like it's out of the way it's and you know, there's nothing around it like unless you know where that building is, you're not going all the way over there to see someone's MFA Show unless if you know them, you know, and then same thing would be the Humanities Building. Like you're only seeing this work. Normally, if a you're in the MFA department, or if you're in the undergrad department for art, or if you're just so happened to be passing on, like the sixth and seventh floor of the humanities, really, but you don't like inherently go there to see art like it, you just don't like the like the like, when shows open. Like there's not that many people there. It's sort of just always like the people within the department. And it's, it's, it's unfortunate, because the school is so large, and it houses so many different majors. And people that like I think people, you know, people would really benefit from seeing the work that undergrads and grads students make it just that you just don't get that, you know, turnout. So like the Chazen, it's like, all kinds of people come through the Chazen, like, whether it's just to walk through buildings, because it's warm on the inside. And it's a you know, it's a way to cut through, you're gonna pass the gallery so it's like it's, I mean, I can't make work about myself, like, I need to make work for the community like there. There was really no question about it. It you know, like art is sometimes bigger than yourself. And sometimes you have to make that sacrifice if you can. And I think Black artists normally make that sacrifice because we know what it's like to exist in this world. We can't just talk sometimes about like, you know, making work about what we dreamed or like we can't make work about memories, you know, like not in the way like 00:45:00everything, you know, the personal is political. And I think we just a lot of times we have like all this added pressure to make work that's political and some personal pressure like I really, I wasn't able to stop making like super political like, like reaction based work for years after I left grad school, like I just couldnt, my brain couldn't really conceptualize that I don't have to react.

Sophia Abrams 45:37

Did you have the same pressure when you were an undergrad?

Jay Katelansky 45:44

Um, no, not really. I mean, my work was also political base. But it wasn't really, it wasn't really pressure, because there wasn't a Black community there was Black students, but like, not the you know, not to me, obviously, that a huge PWI had, you know, like, once again, like, I went to school with, like, 500 women. So like, there was like, we've been, like, 10 Black people. And yeah, so there, there's just like, personal pressure. But I had that, you know, that I wanted to make work on race. Because, I mean, no one would really know what you know. And in Crits], when I was making the work, no one would talk about it, like, no one would talk about my work and undergrad, like, they were like, "Oh, we just don't understand it. Because it's, you know, it's Black." But I'm like, but I can sit here inour critiques and talk about your memory and like, the landscape of whiteness, and, you know, like, I'm not fully white, but I'm able to do that, like, I'm not Asian, but I'm able to talk about this person's work who's talking about their Asian culture, like, and you're also able to talk about it. So like, why is it that I, you know, now making work that's not even, like, inherently Black, but like, all of a sudden, you're shying away from it. Um, but no, like, I think, I think with undergrad, just because we had so many critiques all the time. And we were constantly talking about the work. Like, I felt like I didn't have to drive home a certain message, because I was constantly talking about this message, I was in conflict, trying to get my peers to talk with me about it. Whereas I felt, I just totally thought, you know, and we're in Philly. So like, you know, you step out of the school you're around Black people, like they, you know, you're immersed in Black culture all the time. Whereas in Wisconsin, you're not immersed in, at least in Madison, you're not an on campus, I can't talk about because I'm not from there. And I don't want to take that away from anybody, but like, personally, within the Madison University, bubble, like, there isn't a lot of you know, there isn't really 00:48:00spaces of Black culture. So, yeah, like, I felt like I had to bring it to the area.

Sophia Abrams 48:17

No, that makes sense. And then you talked about this. But then for your critiques, would you say that people just did not really try to kind of broach this the topics in your art? Or how was that for you?

Jay Katelansky 48:33

For my MA Show or?

Sophia Abrams 48:35

Or just like, in general, like when you would do critiques for and for your MA show as well.

Jay Katelansky 48:40

So we didn't have critiques. And it was really strange, like, for the painting department, like the, like, the painters, like carved out a critique group, but like, you know, like, there was only one class that you could take, that was a critique class, but you had to like, you know, it would get filled up, you had to take it and that was like the only way that you would have like a critique. So that was like the other thing that there wasn't a lot you know, you there wasn't even an open space this to talk about the work, which is why I think, I think some people didn't know how to, which is why like, I got like, weird emails, like, from my MA Show, once again, I'm like a third year painter sent me I think, like, I think, I can't remember they sent me an email, or they wrote me a note and slid it underneath my studio, but like, they like sent me this show. That was a show of Black artists that use like blue It was like, I think blues for smoke or something was like the name of the title of like the show. And it was like, you know, it was like, you know, "I see your uses of gold, but you should really consider using blue." And I'm like, once again, like you'd never asked me why use gold. Like there's a very specific reason I use gold balloons, like I researched it. I, it's from historical culture, like, you know, knowledge of our culture like, like I get it, you see, you've seen this show that, you know, a Black artist. And like their uses of blue and like but like not, you know, like I was like, but why? You know where my studio is because you literally slid the catalog of the show under my door, which is like super appreciative up like I love learning about the work that I didn't know about. But like, I'm so like, don't just tell me what I should do. Or like, without having conversation with me and acting like "Why did I choose this? Like, hey, like, I see why you use gold. Like here, I saw this show that like intertwine blue and I think maybe that could be a good, you know, entry point for you. Like, why did you choose to use gold? But it was like "No, like you." Here's the show, they use blue, you should consider using blue to and I'm like, no critique 00:51:00there. I mean, my like, personally, like the conversations like people coming in the show, like people were really appreciative of it, like, even, like the I forgot his name now. But the like the custodian and the Art Lofts, you know, who I see all the time, because I'm, you know, at the studio late at night, and he's the main person so you know, you see him he, you know, he's around, he obviously does his janatorial duties around the studio. For you know, just, it's nice, you don't know the names of people who work in the spaces in which you're creating, like, and he came up to me, and he was like, I really felt your show. Like, he, he was just, he was like, you know, and I think he was Latino, like, but he was like, this is really important work. And like, that, personally, is a better critique or conversation for me than having conversations on the art department or my professors, because here's this person who's not a student, who, you know, doesn't know, you know, doesn't know me, like, has, you know, doesn't need to, you know, keep a facade or whatever. And, like, kind of who doesn't even have to, you know, like, even talk about the work. But here he is coming to me, personally and telling me like, how the show resonated with it. And that was super important, because it's just like I don't make work just for art people. Like I make, I'm trying to make work, start a conversation. And that started the conversation with someone probably wouldn't like, you know, other than saying, like, Hi, how are you doing? Like, you know, how's your day going? But like, not like that was the first time you had like an actual conversation not based off like niceties and manners.

Sophia Abrams 52:51

No, that's really interesting. In another case, like you make work to start a conversation too, as well. Um, before we jump into your third year, and your show, are there any other notable people or exhibitions, or anything else that we didn't cover from your second year that you think is worthwhile to cover?

Jay Katelansky 53:14

So in my second year, that's when I met Faisal, what I've like officially had a conversation with Faisal. And I mean, that really, you know, having a Black professor who's from the UK, like, I don't know, it just like really helped talking to him, because he has like a whole other experience of being Black this because he was like, super excited and energized. And like I said, I loved my professors, but you know, they don't always understand as nice as they are as helpful as they were. You know, and I valued ever, you know, I like, my experience that Madison, like, as a whole wasn't super great, but like, I am 00:54:00super thankful, but I can say I had great professors who were really helpful. And, you know, were super nice and understanding. But yeah, it's just different when you have a Black professor, like it's different when someone who is making work on race, who like experiences the world, as a Black person can come in and see things in your work and help you out. Like, that was super pivotal for me, along with like John Hitchcock, like he, you know, even though I don't work with him directly. You know, he's a person of color. He's in printmaking. And he just, you know, like, he was just really helpful, just I can just talk to you and just have, like, you know, conversations with me. He's one of the reasons him and Faisal . I think one of the reasons I started getting Visual Art in First Wave because they saw need for it. And I saw students were really wanted to experience that, but they didn't have a place for it and here two professors of color, you know, opening up a space. So I think that's amazing.

Sophia Abrams 55:14

No, that's really amazing too. And interesting how they kind of lead that change as well. So before you start at your third year, did anything notable happen in the summer between your second and third year?

Jay Katelansky 55:33

No, I don't think anything. No, I didn't pick up and go to Germany or anything like that this year. Yeah, no, I think I just, I just knew that I was finishing up, I think I was just like, you know, very concentrated on like, this isn't my last year. And just, you know, I think I just focused mainly on that.

Sophia Abrams 55:54

So then, what was the beginning of your third year like for you?

Jay Katelansky 55:58

I don't really, honestly remember, like the beginning, I just know that like, everything is geared like starting the third year, it's like pretty much your MFA show like that is what your brain is on, it's like, because you don't know at the beginning of the year when your MFA show is going to be because they haven't picked it yet. So like, you kind of go in not knowing whether or not you're gonna have your MFA Show, like in the winter, or in the spring. So like, you either have like a very short amount of time to finish making the work or find an idea, or you have like a little bit longer, but it's like, it's really like a lottery. And I think, you know, it made me anxious, because I honestly had no idea at that moment. What I was going to be doing, and I think the only influential thing that happened to me is that I think at the beginning of my third, I don't know if it was like in this maybe it was the summer before I started the third year, but I read Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. And that that 00:57:00really, I think, really like, I think that was probably the best thing I could have done without knowing it was reading that book.

Sophia Abrams 57:19

So from that, can you kind of talk about how, like, what initial research you were doing, like one being reading the Invisible Man, but then also the process of kind of narrowing in on your MFA show's theme as well.

Jay Katelansky 57:37

So the theme took a really long time. I know I worked with Faisal, like me and Faisal met often. I was taking that year I started. Like, I wasn't in the printmaking classes and like the screen printing, like I was in the screen printing classes, so I can use the materials but like I wasn't, like, I guess in in the class, like, I mean, I was. But I took this screenprinting class with Faisal just to hone down on my practice of screen printing, which I did an undergrad, but it's been a while and that, you know, I think making multiples, I'm very, the way that my brain works it like I have to do things on repetition. And also, that's how I learn, I can't, I don't pick up things right away. Like I have to do the over and over and over and over and over again before I can even understand what I'm doing and get in the flow of it. So printmaking is like really meditative in that way, because you're just doing the same thing on repeat, and it kind of lets my brain thing. So that was really helpful. For that I think I lost sort of what the question was,

Sophia Abrams 58:49

Oh, just how you narrowed down or narrowed in on your theme.

Jay Katelansky 58:54

Yeah, so it was, um, it was honestly like, until, like, I was kind of sort of making a lot of different work, like really different work with lots of material. It was kind of really all over the place. Honestly, it wasn't until I got the Chazen show that I think I was really able, you know, like, I was able to be like, "okay, no," like, "I have to stick to something." So like, I was thinking a lot of words because once again, like I said, I was reading a lot to like, I was like we're every time I read things, like I write phrases, but I think of when I'm reading that I pulled from like, the literature, or whatever, and I had started making like a bunch of these like affirmations and I was like, you know, honestly, I think this would be really great in a space like allowing people to read it. And if they could just like, read it on a grand scheme] So then I was like, cool, like, I'll make screenprints using this stuff. And at first, like I was using an array of colors like Faisal was like, you got to 01:00:00pick, like one color field. And he was like, you know, he introduced me to Josef Albes's work who was a painter who uses just colors like different tones of the same color. So he has monochromatic paintings of like reds or yellows or so, you know, I looked at all of, you know, I looked at all of these color fields],, I'm really drawn to yellow. So that like honed me down on using the use of yellow in my work. It was kind of just like a long process, like, once again, like the Invisible Man, Invisible Man really helped me like hone it down. Because in the book, it talks about how like, Invisible Man has like a hole that he goes to. And he talks about how like this hole is, you know, not dark, it's filled with lights, I think a lot of times when people will think about like, you know, depression or like, you know, when you escaped from the world, like you're, you're going to this deep, dark place that is, you know, depressive or whatever. But he explained it as a warm, welcoming place that he goes to, to feel safe. And he's like, my hole is not dark, my hole is filled with light, it had like 1300, and something lightbulbs. And I was like, that's how I felt about Madison, like, you know, going into like these First Wave circles, or going into the homes of my friends like, these are the holes in which we go to to feel safe. And like these spaces are the spaces are filled with the most light for us. And I wanted to create something that brought that light to a wider range of people. And that really, you know, allowed me to really hone down like, what would I want in a space of light? But what do people want to feel acknowledged and loved and safe?

Sophia Abrams 1:02:01

That's really beautiful. How like, you kind of like take literature and apply it to your work.

So then can you talk about once you really honed in, you know, like the color scheme, and also having the affirmations, how you then transform the space that you had and like, can you talk about the exhibition as well.

Jay Katelansky 1:02:28

Yeah, so I'm working with Faisal, who is really helpful was like you got to build a model. And I'm like, Oh, God, I hate I hate sketching. I hate having to, I think about things in 3D, because I'm a very 2D person. I was like, like, I don't want to do it. But he was like, very like, "No, you need to. Like you, you need to plan it out." So he helped me. He, I mean, he basically, he basically did the work on making the model, I'm not going to lie, like I just, I'm 01:03:00terrible at 3D stuff that he made, he basically made me a model of the Chazen room. And he was like, this is your space. Like, this is how much space you have. And I had like a very long wall. And so that's like, when we started thinking, like I started thinking about I was like, okay, like, here's this model, this is what I need. And so I would like screen print things in the studio. And screen print them on like, newsprint paper was just just like, it's just like, it's like tester paper. And then I started taking those tests or papers into Faisal's studio because he had much more space. And we started pinning them on the wall, just to kind of see what it would look like, like, you know, and that's when I decided I was like, Okay, I want this whole entire, like 100 like foot wall to have screen prints on it. I was like, "Okay, well how many screenprints are gonna fit on this wall? And then so from there, it was like, Okay, cool. Like, I know, I'm going to need to print a lot and then it was like, What do you print? So, you know, I had honed down like 12 affirmation phrases and I was like, these are the ones that I want to go on the wall. So that was like part of it. And then that was part of it. And then I decided I wanted, one day I was at my friend Megan and Yolanda's house and like that was like the house he would go to when you're feeling down because Megan was such like a mom where like she would cook like whatever was in the house like you know, kind of just like throw it in the pot like we we have like three things in this house and we're gonna make a whole meal out of it and she would make the meal and feed everybody and we're doing music and drinks and like it was kind of like a really nice place to be and Yolanda and Megan have been living with each other for a while. So Yolanda and Megan themselves have like their own personal language sort of like they could just talk to each other without having to talk and just watching them sometimes it's kind of like really magical. Here you see Black women who live in this very white space and like, are struggling with their own personal traumas and like, still have time to laugh and joke and like feed a community. So I wanted to include them in and I just, I just wanted, like their laughter It's like infectious like the moment the two of them start laughing, you kind of just can't help but laugh too, even if you don't know what the joke is like, just because like I said, it's infectious. So I wanted that to be videos. in the, in the show, so I once again, went to Faisal's studio and we recorded that just like based on a white backdrop, and they're just having a conversation and I just filmed them having a conversation. And like, it's literally at some point, like, there's like the video of them laughing that I have in my show. They're talking about like a Lil Bow Wow, like they're just, it's just a normal conversation. It's not about anything, it's just like about 01:06:00like lil bow wow and like, how he just is a mess and they're cracking up and I caught that moment. And I put it on repeat or like on a loop, because I just, it just so I just played on a loop of them laughing, which I thought was super powerful. And then just thinking about, you know, like, once again, it's like, think about words, like, you know, here are these people surviving. And what are other words for surviving. So I'm on our way to film the video, I thought like, just like this, it was like a random fake patch of grass in the Art Lofts. Like, it was just sitting there. And I was like, you know, it's we're like, sort of in winter still. So like, we don't you know, green grass is not around right now. And it was weird to see, you know, it's fake. But did you see a patch of green grass in this in, in a building. So I had them lay on it. And like, I just took this image of them laying on it laughing and they're wearing yellow because I asked him to wear yellow, this is the screen prints for yellow. And it just, it just really worked. Like it just, I don't know, it was like one of those moments that it's just serendipitous, like, here is this thing, and then they lay down on it and they're filled with joy. So I included that also in the video them in there.

So yeah, I suppose I decided I wanted video pieces. So I had them laughing I had another video of them playing on this patch of grass that like then flipped to words of existing, like existing, surviving, unfuckwithable,undestroyable just thinking of things that like, you know, once again to go with, like, you know, everyday some thing has tried to try to kill me but hasn't like, you know. Um, so yeah, like I had that set up. I decided, while I was screen printing everything in the studio, like I would go in at like eight o'clock at night to the screen printing studio, and print until like six o'clock in the morning. Just because I like to be alone when I do printmaking. And this whole entire time I was listening to disco. Because it was like, the only way to like, stay up and like, I guess like feel happy I guess in the space. And then so like I wanted something in my studio, I wanted something like show to also play music. And one day, I'm just like, listening to music, and "I Will Survive" came on. And I was like, Oh my god, this is the perfect song. Like, this is the song and like, this is the song that I want to play throughout my show. Because it's like, like, it's about a relationship. But like, if you like if you really listen to the lyrics, like "I will survive" on repeat, it's like, you know, no one can take that away from me, like I will survive. And I just kept thinking about like, sort of the, like, the the route that what Black students are like 01:09:00in Wisconsin, like, it's like, we're here to get a degree and we're gonna put ourselves through as much torture as we could possibly withstand because we know what how important it is to have a degree as a Black person. Like, it's, I mean, we, you know, like a lot of times, like, it's what gets us a job. Like, unfortunately, it's what makes people think that we're worthy or whatever. Or it's for our parents or grandparents, our ancestors, and we just withstand the trauma, no matter what, unfortunately. And I just wanted a song to kind of be like you did it. Like I said, it just sort of happened and it was perfect. Um, so yeah, so then there was that and then I wanted something to ground you in that space. Like I feel like a lot of times, a lot of times the spaces in which you don't feel like you belong. I know personally, I disassociate like I leave my body, I'm not present, I'm not around. And I wanted people to know that they were in a space. So I put a mirror on the floor. and I put a stack of flower prints that you could take. So you were allowed to take one of the prints, but you had to look at yourself in your, in the mirror, as you took a print. So you had to see yourself taking something. So I wanted it to be for Black and brown people to take something and see themselves in the space and know that they're there and that we see them. But I also wanted people who may not necessarily need that print, you know, to also see themselves taking something from this space, like I wanted you to experience yourself in this space, acknowledge yourself, regardless whether or not you're taking something that maybe you shouldn't take, or you're taking something that you should take, and you should you know, see that you survived this space.

So yeah, so I had music playing on one side, I had so I had the music playing like have you entered the doors, it's the the entryways into the gallery space. On your left wall, you had Gloria Gaynor's, I will survive playing with the TV screen that had all the words of surviving, playing in pink letters on a yellow background. And there is a pair of yellow headphones that you would put on to listen to the song. But if you were in the space by yourself, or if there wasn't a lot of noise, you could hear the song play through the headphones, like it was loud enough that you could hear it through the whole gallery. So you have that on the left side, directly in the front and you walk into the doors, you have the long wall with like over 150, yellow screen prints that said 12 things of different words of affirmations. And then on the right side wall, you had two 01:12:00videos, one higher up than the other one. But they basically it was it was a video of Megan and then a video of Yolanda on two separate TV screens. They were faced they the images of Megan and Yolanda they're looking at each other. And they're laughing. And then the wall that it's like, and then there's like another wall on the corner that had another video and that was a video of Megan and Yolanda on the patch of grass and they're moving and laughing and once again, there's words overlaying that not saying like unfuckwith able undestroyable. and then there's doors to leave the gallery. But in the then there's a wall between two entryway doors that have seven prints that are there on cream paper, it's letterpress prints that are blind letterpress there's no ink on it, it's just a it's just an impression. So like a reverse and embossment that say "we don't die we multiply". So it was like last thing that you see when you leave the gallery you see seven things that you have to get very close to to see the text and it was kind of like one of those things that you know if you if you saw it, it was kind of like, like a haha moment and sort of like, you know, you tried everything to kill us, but you can't. And we just keep multiplying. Yeah, and then you exit the gallery.

Sophia Abrams 1:13:37

That's really cool. I wish I could have seen it. So once you kind of did all that what was opening night like for you?

Jay Katelansky 1:13:48

So I feel like I have the worst timing with shows because the day that my show open, there is so I saw with the Chazen museum prize that you you get you got the show space for like, over a month, which is super great. But then for opening night they cater. And they asked you like at the beginning of your show, like before your show open there anything like that, like what, what what do you want the cook the kitchen to cook? Like what do you want? Like they can cook anything? They're like, they're like super chefs. Like they're like, very skilled like not, you know, like, yeah, like, you know, I never really thought about the fact that you know, obviously, there's chefs on board because, you know, obviously the Chazen has like very fancy parties, but I never really thought about it and so like they were like we can cook anything for you. And they had told me the person the show before me. He was indigenous and they they made like fry bread and things like to for his like, you know, part of his culture. And they made it perfectly and it was like oh my god, like at the time I didn't eat chicken, like I was a vegetarian or pescetarian but I had them make chicken and waffles. I had chicken and waffles, collard greens, sweet tea. I 01:15:00think I think that's yeah, I think that's the food that I had served. And so like I had all, you know, had this plan, I had my friends who were in a band come, and they like, they made songs based off of mainly songs based off of my prints. So excuse me. So we had, so I like food, you know, whatever. A band come out. But I remember like, as I, you know, like, I'm at the gallery I'm waiting for like the band. And I'm trying to reach people i'm not getting responses. So of course, I start freaking out, cuz I'm just like, Where is band, like, I need y'all. And then the first person I saw was EJ. And EJ was just like, EJ Newble, who was an undergrad and he was part of Me N You band which was who I was having playing at the show. He was super frazzled. I'm like, what, what, you know, what is wrong, like, and he was like, I was just in class. And some, you know, one of the students was just arrested in class, like, police just came to class and arrested this student. And so my other Professor Johanna Almiron she, she was one of my professors, and it happened in her class. And the person who, who got arrested was also supposed to, I guess for his for like his final project for that class. He was supposed to record the opening. So what happened was that like, at the time, there was a lot of these like, like very anti-semitic graffiti going on around campus. Like I remember in like, on, like, the Jewish building, like there was a swastika, like, it was like, I'm like lime green, it was like this whole big thing. And this student was making like, political statements, you know, part of Blackness. And once again, like, you know, the people who are putting the swastika and the anti-semitic stuff, like, nothing's happening to them. But they found the student, obviously, they were, you know, they like there's camera. So like, they could have found people to do the anti-semetic thing, but nothing happened. But of course, they target the Black student. And they come into classroom, which they're not supposed to do. They're not supposed to enter campus facilities, I don't think like, I think that's like a rule. Like they're not supposed to come through lecture halls. They dismissed the woman of color professor, who is in this class lecture with all their 01:18:00students, they take this Black student, and they take them out and they arrested. So this all happened right before the opening on my show. So a lot of people were angry, upset, confused, what have you. And like, the organizations in Madison were able to get him out of jail, like or out of police protection or whatever, like, I don't know exactly where he was, like, I don't obviously he didn't go to jail. But like, they got him out of police custody. And they were able, I think, to get the charges dropped, I think because of the way that the police had entered the school, so this all happened before the show. And I think, you know, from you know, talking to people who were in our classroom, talking to the, the man who was arrested. Like, he also showed up with his partner at the show, like after all this happens to him. He shows up at the show, and like I his partner was like, "No, like, we needed to be here. Like we after that event. We needed to be here." So like the opening reception, like music's playing, chicken and waffles and collard greens and sweet tea are being served. It was really, really awesome. Like that. Like I didn't really get to like fully experience it because I exhausted nervous haven't eaten all day. Like, you know, all these people are here talking to me, but just seeing people in the space and seeing how happy everyone was. It like was the best highlight of the three years I was in Madison.

Sophia Abrams 1:19:51

No, that's, that definitely sounds really hectic and stressful to happen right before your show. How, how did people respond like to it? Like, the night of and for the duration that it was up?

Jay Katelansky 1:20:10

I mean, people responded really well, it seemed like people are, like, I know, I like recently saw someone that still had, like, they post on social media, like a picture of their room. And I'm just like, that's my flower print. Like you still have, like, you know, like the fact that people still have those prints. But, yeah no, like, people came up to me and told me, it was like a super powerful show how they really needed it. People have told me that, like, they would come like, during their off periods just to sit in the space. Yeah, I mean, I got really great responses from the show from like, everybody. So like, I don't know, it was like, good all around. Like, I didn't know what, like, at that point. No one has said anything negative towards me, like I, you know, I 01:21:00didn't get any negative comments. I didn't get any weird emails. Like, at this point, like, it was like, I you know, I did the show, I pulled it off successfully, like it touched the community, like I could, you know, opening night, like, I saw how happy everybody was, like, it was a moment of joy, like I, you know, and being able to create that space. Like really meant everything to me.

Sophia Abrams 1:21:35

Um, so then that show happens in April or early May?

Jay Katelansky 1:21:43

Yeah, it was like, I think it was April or early May. I can't exactly remember the exactdates. But yeah, that's like around the time that it happened.

Sophia Abrams 1:21:54

So then, I guess post that show and post-graduation? What was next? And kind of like, what have you done since UW?

Jay Katelansky 1:22:05

Yeah. So afterwards, I had decided I was going to I was trying, I was hoping to claim this between moving to New York or moving to California. And then after being in Wisconsin, and Wisconsin being like a slower pace, like I was just like, I don't think I'm ready for the fast pace in New York, like, I'm from the east coast. And I was like, I don't know if I'm ready to, like, kind of, like, integrate myself back into that world. Or not. And my best friend had just finished, like, she was in her first year post-grad. And she was living in Oakland, because she went to school here. And she was like, just come like, we'll figure it out. And I'm just like, okay, like, kinda like it without really, you know, I didn't have any plans. Like, I just, I knew I didn't want to go home to New Jersey. And I didn't think I was ready. Or financially stable enough to go to New York. And yeah, so I was just like, I'll just go to Oakland. Like, I didn't have any plans. I didn't have a job. I like had no money. I like survived off my friend who was working part. Like she one of her jobs was like a side job of working at a pizzeria. So like, I lived off of her free pizzas that she would bring home. Yeah, so like that was that. And then I was able to, you know, like I started, working at a shop in San Francisco, where I met like a bunch of artists. And then from there, I got a job working for another, working for an artist who I still work for now. So I've been working for her for like, three going on four years now. And I joined when I first moved to here in Oakland, I've joined artists collective Ctrlshft, which is like super rad. It was like 12 women and nonbinary people that, you know, they started up themselves built, you know, a 12 studio space. Held shows annually like, it was 01:24:00great. Um, I've been in several shows here at galleries in Oakland, and in San Francisco. I recently had a show this year in Gilroy, California. I had a show also in Maine. I was also in a group show in Maine, like this month. Yeah, I've been making work and making prints and selling those along with working. Yeah, I've just been trying, you know, I've been drawing and painting in my studio and just trying to build up my portfolio so that I can hopefully enter like, teaching in the next year or so. But yeah, I was just been, like working and making work and trying things.

Sophia Abrams 1:25:00

Looking back, almost, I guess six years now, how do you see your time at UW shaping you mow?

Jay Katelansky 1:25:11

I mean, I think, you know, like, as a whole, I mean, I think just like the experience, like, obviously, I will never like not have that experience. I think that just in general, I think like, everything that you've lived, you know, is, you know, propels you for, you know, everything else. Like, I think like, everything is a domino effect. So, I mean, I, you know, it's like a part of me. I try to think of it not always as a negative experience, and also think all the positive things that happened. But yeah, I mean, it prepared me for if I was to ever, like, re-enter a PWI as a professor or you know, what have you. Yeah, like, I'm just like, very hyperaware of like academia and what it will be, like, if I enter as a professor, as a Black person, as a queer person, as someone who's like, relatively younger, I guess. Yeah, like I, you know, I'm not sure other how else to answer that question. But yeah, I think like, that's how, like, it's shaped meoverall, it's just, I mean, just the experience itself, the people that I met, you know, hearing this, you know, knowing what other people went through. I think it makes me more like more empathetic towards, you know, professors, you know, people in academia. And if I was to go back, you know, just hyperaware of what it's like for students and for other professors of color.

Sophia Abrams 1:26:47

And then my last question is, is there anything that we missed, that you think is worthwhile to your interview?

Jay Katelansky 1:26:56

No, I think we've covered everything. I think, you know, I think I think 01:27:00covering you know, the fact that, you know, the professors that were really great. Yeah, I think I'm pretty sure I think we covered all of it.

Sophia Abrams 1:27:11

Great. Well, thank you so much for taking some time out of your Saturday. I really enjoyed hearing about your time at UW and post-UW and yeah, I'll kind of keep you on. Let me just pause the recording.