Interview with Sylvia Kreutzmann

SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1866

KREUTZMANN, SYLVIA

KREUTZMANN, SYLVIA (1938-)

Interviewed: 2019

Interviewer: Lea Goldstone

Index by: Lea Goldstone, Sophie ClarkTranscribed by: Teresa Bergen

Length: 60 minutes

First Interview Session (March 15, 2019): Digital File

00:00:00

LG: All right. So today is Friday, March 15. My name is Lea Goldstone. And I'm interviewing Sylvia Kreutzmann. This is a phone interview. And this is being conducted for the Madison General School of Nursing Alumni Oral History Project, from 1905 to 1982. And for sound quality purposes, could you please say your name and spell your last name?

SK: Sylvia Kreutzmann. K-r-e-u-t-z-m-a-n-n.

LG: Great. So just to get an idea about your background, just describe your upbringing.

SK: I'm the oldest of three children. My parents lived, well, I lived with them, obviously, on the outskirts of Madison in a little community called Crestwood. It's actually still there. And I went to grade school out in that area, at 00:01:00Highlands Mendota Beach. And then I went to West High School in Madison. I'm not sure how much more you want.

LG: No, that's perfect.

SK: Okay.

LG: So did anything in your background guide you towards your nursing path?

SK: Yes. We had a school nurse. And I just thought the world of her. I didn't have much direct contact with her. But she was just such a nice lady. She was actually a friend of my mom's. And also I had an aunt who lived up in Sturgeon Bay who was a nurse. And she had some interesting experiences that she would tell us about. She worked in the cherry orchards up there during the summer. And 00:02:00then in a hospital, otherwise. But, yeah. They both impressed me. And I also wrote those Cherry Ames books. They're books about nurses. I don't know if you've ever heard of them.

LG: No. Could you spell that? Just in case, I can look it up later.

00:02:23

SK: Sure. It's a woman, a girl, woman nurse, Cherry. C-h-e-r-r-y, Ames, A-m-e-s. And there was a whole series of them that were extremely popular way back in the '50s. Like there was a Cherry Ames student nurse, there was a Cherry Ames camp nurse, a Cherry Ames, ever kind of nurse you can imagine. And they were obviously glorifying the profession. But I read all of those. (laughs) Decided 00:03:00that's what I wanted to be.

LG: And was nursing popular amongst your friends as like a career choice that they were thinking about?

SK: A couple of them. Two of us actually started the program at the university in Madison, the School of Nursing program there. But after I was there about a year, I decided I didn't want to become the kind of nurse that they were training us to be, which was either a manager or a home health nurse. I wanted to be a bedside nurse and have more patient contact. So I transferred over to Madison General. And it was just so much better. I really enjoyed it. It was hard work. But anyway, we made friends right away with other people, other students.

I remember on the first day when we came in September, I didn't know anybody. And neither did hardly anybody else. But we all came pretty much with our parents to haul our suitcases in and find our dorm room. Some of the parents, we introduced each other, etcetera. But one of the gals, who I ended up being a roommate with, her father and my father both knew each other from college. And were both in the School of Agriculture, and both of them were very quiet men. They didn't speak very much. But they saw each other and they thought well, this was probably a good place for their daughters. (laughs) Anyway.

LG: So just to clarify, what year did you start at Madison General?

SK: It must have been 1957. Because we graduated in September of '60. And it's a three-year program.

LG: Let me just jot that down.

SK: I graduated from high school in '56, and then started at the University of Madison right away. But then, like I said, I transferred over.

LG: So what were your first impressions of Madison and Madison General?

SK: Of Madison?

LG: Yeah. Madison and just Madison General.

SK: Oh. Well I knew Madison because I'd lived on the outskirts and we went to church in Madison and shopped in there. So I knew what Madison was like. At 00:06:00Madison General, I didn't know a whole lot about it. But I had been a patient there as a youngster. I had my tonsils out there. But of course it had already changed quite a bit. I don't think they had a nursing dorm. I don't know that. But anyway, I liked dorm living. It was just kind of fun to be away from home, even though I wasn't that far away. But I didn't have a car or anything. So I, when I went to the university in Madison, that school, I had to go home every evening and study at home. And that was kind of hard because there wasn't very good transportation. Well, anyway, that didn't work as well.

LG: And so did you live in a dorm?

SK: Yes. McConnell Hall. We all lived there. Well, there was a house behind the place, Rest Harrow. But none of us were living there, none in my class, because it was getting old and being condemned, I think, and then they tore it down. But anyway, we all had rooms. But I think a lot of us had to double us and be two people to a room. Which worked out, but it was pretty tight, and I'm not sure that's the way the place was built initially.

It also had a big lounge on each of the, I think three floors. And they didn't have enough rooms, so they put some of the girls in that lounge. They had a good 00:08:00time in there. (laughter)

LG: And how many people would you say were in your class?

00:08:11

SK: In my class?

LG: Mm hmm.

SK: Oh, boy. I should have looked that up. Oh, boy. I don't know. But I remember that quite a few had to drop out right away because they didn't either pass the exams or study hard enough or whatever reasons they gave. I don't know, we must had at least, I don't know, fifty.

LG: Oh, so a big class.

SK: I can't remember the exact number, though. But anyway, I should have looked up. Have you seen the history book that we put together? Actually, Mary Pautz and Pat have, and I worked many hours on putting together a history 00:09:00book with all of our pic--no, yeah, I think all of the information from all of our classes.

LG: Hmm. What was the name of it?

SK: Pardon?

LG: What was the name of the book?

SK: I think I have it right over here. Hang on. I saw Mary [Pawlitz?] name on this letter that I got from her.

LG: Mm hmm.

SK: Do you know her?

LG: Yeah. She is kind of like the head of the project, I would say.

SK: Okay. Because she's the one who helped put that book together. And you need to see that. That was a huge effort. Now I can't find it, darn it. I thought I had it right here.

LG: I can always get in contact with her, too, and we can figure out how I can get my hands on that.

SK: Good. It's a book that tells about each class. And actually a volunteer man had put all this information together, but not in any special format. So we got the bright idea that we wanted to have something like that. So we worked on it for a long time. It was a big accomplishment. It's like a history book of Madison General. Well, anyway.

LG: Awesome. So back on like your account. So what were some of the social and recreational activities that you did with your friends while you were in school?

00:10:50

SK: I wrote some of these down. Actually, right there at the dorm they would have, I think they called it a Silver Tea. Because they had a beautiful silver 00:11:00set. And they would serve us tea. Often it was the housemothers, I think, and the instructors, that put the thing together. We had tea and cookies. And it was in the parlor area of the McConnell Hall dormitory. It was a beautiful setting. And it was a very nice thing. I think they did it every, I don't know if it was every month or every couple of months. Then it kind of faded out after a couple of years, I think. I don't remember the details of it, but I do remember going to it. And it was certainly an attempt to have us all meet each other and get to know each other better.

I remember one evening in the winter, some of the gals wanted to go ice skating. And the dorm actually isn't too far from Vilas Park. You know where that is?

LG: Mm hmm.

SK: Yeah. Well, anyway, in the winter they had a warming house and they had skates you could rent. I went along to watch, because this was the funniest thing ever. But probably about a half a dozen of the girls put skirts on and they were going to go and twirl around on the ice. We don't have any pictures, I don't think. But anyway, it was lots of to do about getting them there and well, anyway, it was a fun thing.

We also would have dances on maybe a Friday night once in a while. The instructors would let us. And they would chaperone, we'd have them downstairs. We'd decorate the big auditorium and invite some of the boys from some of the 00:13:00fraternity houses.

And I can remember one time when I was a senior, I think it was, we had a really nice dance out at the West Side Country Club in Madison. Somebody must have belonged there or something. At that time there was a song that was very popular called "Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White." You probably never heard of it. But I remember, because I was on the decorating committee. And my boyfriend and I were able to find some branches. And I think we stuck them in some kind of plaster of Paris or something, cement of some kind, in a can. And then we'd decorate them with little crepe paper flowers. And my boyfriend had a truck that 00:14:00was open in the back. And so we had to take these all the way from the dorm way out to the West Side Country Club. (laughs) It was quite a sight. But anyway, that was a fun thing.

LG: So kind of going more towards like how school was, so can you describe some of the technical training that you had while you were there? Like what were classes like?

SK: We had some classes at the university. And so we had to walk over there, which was a long, long walk. And it was some of, I think our first year we did that. We had chemistry and we had biology and some of the main courses over there. And then we'd come back and have nursing courses in the dorm. The student 00:15:00instructors would be teaching them. And we had a lab right there in the dorm that had beds in it, because we had to learn how to make a bed the right way, and how to put the sheets on and make the square corners and all that. Then we had to learn how to give each other shots. And we practiced on each other, but also on oranges. Let's see. Just about every procedure that we had to do with a patient, we had to practice on each other. Which was interesting. (laughs) Everybody didn't like, want to do that. Not everything. Well, as students we didn't have to do some of the procedures that probably you'd have to now. We did not have to do IVs. Which was interesting, because many of us, when we graduated 00:16:00and went somewhere to work, we had to do IVs. So we had to learn. But when we were at, as students, they had an IV team. So if a patient in the hospital ever needed an IV, they would just call the team, and they would come and start it. Which was convenient. For us, anyway. Let's see, what else.

I wanted to make just a couple of comments on, we had housemothers that sat at the front desk. Not during the night, but at least until probably ten or eleven at night. And they were there early in the morning. And you had to sign in and sign out whenever you went in and out. And they kept a close eye on that. And to 00:17:00see if you were writing the right time down. And you had to be in by, I think it was ten o'clock. And if you had a date, you still had to be in. And there were a lot of student nurses and their boyfriends standing out on the porch kissing right at ten o'clock. (laughter) That we could get in.

But we had some very nice cleaning ladies. A couple of them in the dorm I can remember. I think one of them was named Clara, just this tiny little lady. But she was busy, busy keeping our place clean. And at the end of the hall on each of the three floors of the dorm, there was like a converted closet, I think it was, into a telephone booth. So when the phone would ring, everybody would fly 00:18:00down there and find out if it was their boyfriend or not.

Then we had rotations where we went from one hospital to another to learn different specialties. You probably, maybe you were going to ask me about that. I'll be quiet. You ask me the question.

LG: Oh, no. This is great. In whatever order you'd like. But yeah, if you want to talk about what that was like, kind of structurally, to go from hospital to hospital. What was your experience with that?

00:18:38

SK: We were divided up into different groups. And it was different groups at each one of these hospitals. We went to Milwaukee Children's Hospital. And I think we spent three months there. And I was there in the summer and it was horribly hot. It was not air conditioned. And the patients we had to take care 00:19:00of were terribly ill. So we had to work really hard. There were instructors around, but it was pretty much of an eye opener as to how hard it was to work with these really sick little kids.

LG: Mm hmm. And were you working alongside like graduate nurses as well? Or was it just student--

SK: Yes. There was always somebody like that in charge.

LG: Got you.

SK: Yeah. Then we went to the Veterans Hospital in Madison to get experience working with tuberculosis. It wasn't a big problem then, like it had been years before, but there still were patients there that had TB. And so we all had to 00:20:00learn sterile technique and how to wear gowns and how to wear masks and all that kind of stuff.

And one thing I remember is the food there was really good. (laughs) We're trying to help these veterans get healthy again, and having good food was helpful, I'm sure.

Then we went to Mendota State Hospital for the Mentally Ill and spent three months there. And the two of us were assigned to a patient who we tried to get to know that person and find out more about why they were there and what their illness was. And then we had to do a report on that.

One day out of our three month out there, we went to a place in Madison which 00:21:00isn't there anymore. But it was called the diagnostic center. And I was extremely fascinated with that place, and that's where I ended up working after I graduated. But they had three floors of patients. They had young kids, like age five and up to maybe 13. And they had a unit for girls, teenage girls, and one for teenage boys. And what we were doing there is trying to determine if these patients were mentally ill or were they delinquent. So we did a lot of work with doctors and a lot of observation and charting what we saw. Anyway, it 00:22:00was fascinating. And I stayed in psych then almost all of my career of about forty-some years, I think. Anyway.

LG: And how long were you guys as students at these hospitals for?

SK: Three months.

LG: Three months each?

SK: Yeah.

LG: Three months. Hmm. And was that just in one year? Or was that like every year you went to a different one?

SK: It just happened whenever the rotation happened. Somebody was in charge of that, but we weren't. And we went with different people each time, too. So we got to know different students.

LG: So did you remember, or do you remember any faculty who played like an 00:23:00important role in your education, or who kind of stood out to you?

SK: I can remember most of them, and they were all very good. Although we were kind of afraid of the director, Alice Schmidt. She was kind of a tough old broad. Don't put that down. (laughter) Anyway, if there were ever any problems--and you can imagine, being in a dorm with all those girls, everybody didn't behave perfectly all the time--and if you got yourself in trouble, you ended up in the office of Alice Schmidt. And that was not very comfortable. (laughs) I never did. But I can remember hearing stories. I can't remember what some of the stories even were. But it wasn't what you wanted to do. (coughs) 00:24:00Excuse me.

LG: Oh, sorry. So were there any particularly challenging aspects of your education that you can remember?

SK: Well, I think in the beginning it was, I think, like I mentioned, several students were dropped or asked to leave or whatever word you want to use, early on. And you kind of didn't know what that was all about, because it was certainly not shared with the whole group. But all of a sudden you'd realize that oh, that person isn't there anymore that used to sit in front of me, or whatever. So it was a little scary wondering if you were going to be next. And not knowing why they left. You know, you didn't want to do something wrong to get kicked out.

One thing I remember was that it cost six hundred dollars. That's what our fee was for three years. Can you imagine? And we got a wonderful education. Three-year nursing programs are probably the best ever, because of the experience that you got. Because you'd learn how to do certain things in the dorm. And then you'd go over in the hospital and you'd be assigned, okay, you have to go into one room, patient room, and make the bed for that patient, after you learned how to do it. And then, well, anyway, all the different things that you did. You'd serve a meal or help a person that couldn't cut their meat or their vegetables or whatever. And so you would stay there and help them. Some of it's obvious. But we just learned so much because we were right there doing 00:26:00everything. Nowadays, nurses are lucky if they get much experience at all. Many of them just go to a hospital for maybe a few weeks and you know, it's kind of scary to think that okay, they're ready to go out and conquer the world.

00:26:26

LG: And what would you say was the most helpful part of the three-year program? Like what was most useful to you in your career?

SK: I think the experience that I got. That I was just mentioning. Because the instructors made it very clear that you were not to go into a patient's room and do a certain procedure if you hadn't practiced it first. Well, anyway. Then 00:27:00they'd help you with it. And we had these booklets with all these checkoff lists that you'd have to check off and find out, you know, well, can I do this or can't I?

Another one of the places where we rotated was into the surgery area. That wasn't for three months, I don't think. And that was right there in Madison General. Miss Woodman was our teacher. And she was very good. But she taught us all about how to use the sterilizers and how to open up the different packs that different doctors would use for their sterile equipment. And then we'd have to be in there and help out, which was kind of scary at first.

LG: What were the relationships like between doctors and nurses at that time? 00:28:00Especially when you were a student.

SK: Well, we weren't taught that we had to cater to the doctors so much. But we were taught that we were just students and we better get out of the way if the doctors were coming in the area. We would get up and give them our chair, that kind of thing. Anyway, we had a lot of respect for the doctors. And most of them were very good at teaching. And they would invite us in if they were going to do some special procedure on a patient, just to come and observe. And they all weren't like that. There were a couple that were kind of nasty, actually. They would yell at us, and that was scary. But that was, I guess, something to talk 00:29:00about at the dorm. (laughs) But, anyway.

One of the things that I was very proud about was I was the president of the Madison District Student Nurses Association in my senior year. And it was very, just a whole new challenge for me. There was another student nurse group at Methodist at the time, another one at Saint Mary's Hospital, and another one at the university hospital. And so we all would get together and have our Madison District meetings. And they would vote on new officers every year. And when I 00:30:00was there, we had a big convention for the whole state. And we had the nurse who was, oh, boy, now I can't think of her name. She was in charge of the nursing program at the UW at the time, but she was our main speaker. Oh, shoot. I don't know what their name was now. But anyway, that was exciting.

00:30:36

LG: And what did that association do?

SK: Well, we had meetings maybe oh, every other month. And we'd talk about what it was like in each of our hospitals. And I guess kind of how we could work 00:31:00together. Sometimes we would have a fundraiser for a charity. I can't think of what else.

LG: That sounds really interesting.

SK: Yeah.

LG: So were there any like practices or methods that you learned in class which you think would be considered kind of unusual today, or maybe that have changed over time?

SK: Um, just about everything. (laughter)

LG: Good point.

SK: Well, I retired about 15 years ago. And we were doing computer charting where I worked at, Waukesha Memorial. But we didn't learn anything like that. Nobody had a clue what a computer was. So we did all of our handwritten charting 00:32:00for many years. I guess the medications that we had to give, well, since we were student nurses, we didn't have to mix any of them. But we would have to figure out the right dose by using our math skills. And that was a challenge sometimes. Especially if you had a different age. Like at Milwaukee Children's, those little kids, you wanted to be sure you got--well, with any age, you want to be sure you get the right dose. But now you don't have to worry about anything like that. The pharmacy sets up all the meds and tells you what dose and that kind of thing.

LG: Mm hmm. And is there anything else from your training that you'd want 00:33:00included in this interview?

00:33:13

SK: I made some terrific friends. We get together and have our alumni meeting. Usually the first Saturday in May at Madison General. Well, now it's not called that anymore. But anyway, you should come so you can see all the different people. It's all the different ages come. Our particular group, our class of 1960, frequently has the largest group there. But anyway, it's fun just to get together.

And then, the president of the hospital comes to speak and tells us what the latest information is about the hospital. And then Marilyn Rhodes usually comes 00:34:00and talks to us about the latest project that she's involved in. So we have a nice lunch and then we get a little time for socializing, and then we hear what's going on.

But several of us get together besides that at different times, just for lunch. So that's also fun. When you live together in the dorm for three years, you get to know somebody pretty well. Unfortunately, we have lost several. I'm 81 now. And so there's quite a few that are gone from our class. But, anyway. We like to remember them fondly.

LG: So tell me about your career in nursing after you graduated.

SK: Well, I worked over at the diagnostic center with these kids. I really liked it. I learned an awful lot. But then I became married and had a little boy. And then my husband finished school and was transferred. So we went up to La Crosse for about six months of his training. And I worked at, oh, it was La Crosse Lutheran then. I don't know if it's still called that. But it was the old hospital. And I worked in, just a float. You come in and they just put you wherever they need you. Frequently I worked on the surgical unit. And that was a lot of running. Getting people ready for surgery for the next morning usually 00:36:00meant enemas and whatever else.

Then we moved to Ohio and I worked in a hospital there as a float person. But I worked in a cancer unit. And it was early on for cancer units, and nobody knew what to do except give them pain medication. And so that's what I did a lot of, was giving people shots of pain medication. They didn't have chemo or radiation treatments or anything like that.

And then we moved again. We moved to Milwaukee. I worked at a hospital in Shorewood. I can't remember the name of it. Not for very long. But then we moved to Rockford. I worked at a hospital there, kind of in orthopedics. Then (laughs) 00:37:00oh, we moved to Madison. And then I applied for a job at Madison General to help recruit, it was called a recruiter. And I would go to different high schools, set up appointments and go to different high schools and tell them about our nursing program at Madison General. So I did that for a year or two. And then got divorced. I have three boys. And moved to Oconomowoc outside, do you know where that is?

LG: Mm hmm.

SK: Okay. Well, anyway, I got a job at Waukesha Memorial working the nightshift in psychiatry. And I stayed there for about 30 years. Not on nights, but in 00:38:00psych. So that's me.

00:38:08

LG: So just in total, how long did you work as a nurse?

SK: Well, I started right away in 1960. And I just quit. I worked probably a little bit of several different years. Never the whole year. Like when I had a baby, I didn't go right back immediately. But let's see, I worked 30 years at Waukesha Memorial. I probably worked at least, probably 45, 50 years.

LG: Wow. That's amazing.

SK: Yeah.

LG: So just tell me about some like of the memorable moments of your career. Like if you have any particular times where you learned a lot.

SK: Well, yeah. I certainly do have a lot of them. But I remember being with 00:39:00more than one person when they died. But at least one, and this was not in psychiatry, this was when I was helping out on another unit. But just being with them when they died was very memorable. Just to be there and hold somebody's hand and offer them some support. And if they wanted a prayer. That kind of thing. That was very memorable, and that happened more than once.

I learned an awful lot about psychiatry when I worked at that diagnostic center in Madison. Because we had like the one unit was just young kids. And many of 00:40:00them, as I look back on it, had autism. But nobody knew what that was then. I remember we had one little boy, he would sit in the children's rocking chair and just rock and rock and rock all day long. You couldn't get him to do hardly anything. Maybe you could get him to eat, or feed him. But he just wanted to sit there and rock.

We had another young girl who actually, she was a skinny little thing. And she was probably about, I don't know, seven or eight. But she thought she was a horse. And she would run around the unit on all fours and kick up her feet. It was very bizarre, some of that. Because you know, these people are very, very 00:41:00mentally ill and you wonder. Some of them came from just horrible backgrounds. You know, they weren't treated well at all from being little on up.

But there were some wonderful times, too. We had some real success stories on your psychiatric unit. I was in charge of an adolescent unit in psych for a few years. And plenty of them would come back at Christmastime and thank us, and tell us how they were doing. (whining) This is my doggy in the background, he wants to go out. You have to wait, now. Just in a few minutes, we will.

So, anyway, that was very rewarding, to know that you're actually helping these kids. And the adults. We had good programs in psychiatry. We had occupational 00:42:00therapy, we had recreational therapy, we had music therapy, all working together with a nursing staff and teaching these kids and adults new ways on how to handle themselves so they wouldn't get into trouble or so they could just have a better life when they left. And then we'd bring their parents in and have meetings with them. It was very successful. But that's when you could keep a patient for maybe two or three months. You'd have time to do all that. Insurance would pay for that. Now, of course, you're lucky if you get a few days. Well, anyway.

LG: So what advice would you give nursing students who are graduating at any time in the future?

SK: Who are graduating?

LG: Yeah, or just like to nursing students in general, if you could give them 00:43:00any advice.

00:43:03

SK: Well, I have a granddaughter now who is going into nursing at Carroll College. And we've talked a little bit. I guess just to try to get as much experience as possible. Right now she'd doing volunteer work at an assisted living place, which is a good thing to start out with. And just to see what it's like for the elderly people there. And any kind of experience working with people like that is helpful.

LG: And is there anything--

SK: Are you in nursing?

LG: Oh, no. (laughs) I'm in a completely different field. But I'm just working for the archives.

SK: Okay. Yeah. Just wondered.

LG: So is there anything else that you'd like to include in this interview?

SK: I don't know. I think we've covered an awful lot. I really enjoyed working 00:44:00and being a student at Madison General. And have made, like I said, good friends. We're still getting together. A couple of them are interested in what I'm telling you, and I'm supposed to call them now and tell them all that we talked about. (laughs) But anyway, so tell me about this project. It's going to be an audio thing?

LG: Yeah. So this interview, along with any future follow-up interview if we end up trying to do that, is going to go, is a part of the Madison General School of Nursing Alumni Oral History Project, which is headed by Mary [Pouts?] and Marilyn Rhodes. Or it might be the other way. So it's like a part of that larger 00:45:00project of just compiling stories and information. And then it will go on like a public forum. We're still kind of in the works about what exactly we're going to do with all the interviews. But it's mostly like for research purposes and stuff like that.

SK: Sure. Well I hope I was helpful.

LG: Oh, absolutely. So right now I'll conclude this interview for now. But just so you know, we'll be sending you a release form that kind of talks more about what happens to the actual interview. And then, if you'd like, I'm going to take a couple of days and kind of summarize the interview, process it. And if I come up with any questions, we can see if setting up a shorter follow-up interview would work. Does that sound okay?

SK: Sure, that's fine.

LG: All right. Awesome.

00:45:53

End First Interview Session (March 15, 2019)

Begin Second Interview Session (June 6, 2019): Digital File

00:00:00

LG: All right. So today is June 6, 2019. My name is Lea Goldstone and I'm 00:46:00follow-up interviewing Sylvia Kreutzmann. This is a phone interview and it's being conducted for the Madison General School of Nursing Alumni Oral History Project, from 1905 to 1982. So just to clarify, what is your birthdate and what is your maiden name?

SK: January 6, 1938. And my maiden name is Blomgren. B-l-o-m-g-r-e-n.

LG: Perfect. So just generally, were there any like historical world events that you remember that kind of stuck out to you during your nursing school years?

SK: Um, a horrible event that happened with, it was in this state. A man named Edward Gein, I think it was G-e-i-n or something like that, from Plainfield, 00:47:00Wisconsin, was arrested and eventually put into prison in Waupun for killing a lot of people. And actually making furniture out of their skins. It was so horrible. I can remember we were so scared about that.

LG: Like as you living like in the dorm with the girls, that really affected you?

SK: Yes. It just, it was such a horrible thing to hear about. Plainfield is up in the middle of the state. It wasn't close by as far as that goes. But it was just so horrible. Well, anyway. Let's see. I don't know of any other world events. We were so busy. We were either working or going to school or sleeping, 00:48:00I think. (laughs)

LG: As students, did you pay? I mean, you kind of said just now. But did you pay like very much attention to other like world news, or was it more just kind of what was going on in your community?

SK: I think it was more community stuff. I can't remember actually. I guess there were some of the years when President Kennedy was becoming more known. He wasn't president yet. That wasn't till later. But we were hearing about him. And his family.

LG: Mm hm. Well, great. I just wanted to get, that's more of just for historical 00:49:00context. So then kind of gearing again back towards your personal education, how did your friends and family feel about you going to school to be a nurse?

SK: Oh, they always knew I wanted to be a nurse. (laughs) I wanted to be a nurse from little on up. And they were very happy about that.

00:03:32

LG: And so you mentioned that you and some of your classmates have worked to preserve the history of your class.

SK: Yes.

LG: Have you like had any role in like alumni relations since you graduated?

SK: Oh, yes. We had a very active class as far as people being officers in the alumni group. I wasn't an officer but I went to the alumni meeting every year, 00:50:00and I have been going as often as possible. When I lived in the area, or here, even in Milwaukee area, I would drive over. Except the last couple of years, I haven't been feeling so good. But anyway, yes, our class was very active and still is. I think we still have a treasurer from our class in the group. And we did have, the president was from our class just a couple of years ago. So. Anyway.

LG: So you kind of mentioned that it was just the treasurer of your class, but what was really the motivation behind wanting to preserve your class' history?

SK: I think we all were good friends. And we all knew we had gotten a very good 00:51:00education. And we just wanted to preserve that as best we could. They had very good teachers. And the experiences we had were, you know, just what we needed.

LG: Well, great. And is there anything else that you'd want to add, just like about your education in general? You mentioned in detail in your original interview. But if there was anything that just stuck out to you in the past couple of weeks.

SK: Well, I've talked with a couple of my class members. And they eagerly said be sure you let you know, the interviewer know, that we all really appreciated the education we got. I was recently in the hospital. And nurses don't do 00:52:00anything like we did. And I know things have changed dramatically and the computer has made a big difference. We didn't have that, of course. There's very little interpersonal stuff that goes on between the nurse and the patient. I was very disappointed in that, compared to what we did. I mean, we spent more time with the patient than they do now, of course. The world is a different place.

LG: Yeah. Can you describe more kind of in detail like what differences, especially having experience being a nurse yourself, what differences there are between how you were taught and how students have kind of evolved into what they 00:53:00are today?

SK: Well, from what I observed when I was a patient, like I said, I was surprised at the lack of interpersonal, you know, contact. And they have certain duties to do. And they come in and do them, one, two, three, and then they're gone. And it's often the aide that will come in. They spend more time with you, I think. Anyway. (sighs) It was disappointing to be a patient. (laughs) Oh, dear. I thought somebody more would care about me, you know, kind of thing. They care about you as a number. And you know, yes, your vital signs are this, and da 00:54:00da, da da, da da. But they don't know you very well. I made it a point to tell them that I worked at this particular hospital for over 30 years and that seemed to at least be something to discuss. (laughs) Well, anyway.--what yes.

LG: Do you think it would be--oh, sorry. Do you think it would be beneficial to kind of reinstate that interpersonal relationship kind of mentality into nursing education?

00:08:46

SK: Yes. For sure. When people are ill, they need more TLC. More understanding. I don't know. Some nurses are very good at that. But a lot of people aren't. And 00:55:00they're just in there to do their job, and out. I have a granddaughter going to just start nursing school. And I hope to be able to talk to her a little bit about the differences. Anyway, maybe it will make a difference in her education.

LG: Well, great. And I guess my last question would be, so you mentioned earlier a little bit how you said the aide really helped you in your personal experience.

SK: Yeah.

LG: Are there any roles of like people, or any jobs in the hospital that exist now that didn't exist when you were a student? Or even just a beginning nurse?

SK: Oh, yeah. I'm sure there are. There's all the people that are there to monitor the different machines that they have you hooked up to. I was on the 00:56:00heart unit, and they had me hooked up to the, you know, my vitals were being taken. And somebody down the hall was viewing that screen. All those people are brand new. I mean, not brand new, but they're different than, they weren't there when I was there as a student. And then all the people that have, well, they have to have people there to repair if things go wrong on those computers. I don't know. That's a whole different department. They still have a housekeeping department and they still have dietary people, but they do things different. Oh, I don't know whether it's just, you know. Maintenance people. I think there's a 00:57:00whole lot more, because there's a lot more--I mean, the bed I was in was the kind of bed that would have to be attended to by a maintenance person rather than a nurse if something went wrong with it. So all the equipment is different.

LG: Mm hmm. Is there any final message that you kind of would like to conclude as kind of summarizing your experience as both a nursing student and a nurse?

00:11:45

SK: I think it's a wonderful occupation. And like I said several times, Madison General, when it was called that, had a terrific program. I know there's, it was a three-year program. And it was so helpful to go into the hospital and have 00:58:00actual experience. Now there's some of these two-year programs. I don't think some of these girls and boys and men and women who complete the courses have had much experience until they actually get a job. Which is sad. But anyway, I and my friends who graduated in 1960 thought it was a good program. And we had good leadership.

LG: Well, great. Well I really appreciate you talking again with me today. And I will keep you updated on what the process like between getting that regular interview kind of combined with this follow-up interview.

SK: Okay.

LG: And will let you know what the further steps are. But I appreciate you 00:59:00taking your time out of your day.

00:13:09

End Second Interview Session (June 6, 2019)

Total time = 60 minutes