Interview with Katherine Lyall

Partial Transcript: Why don't we begin by you telling me something about your childhood and early schooling.

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall was born in Lancaster, PA. Her father was a mechanical engineer and her mother raised the family. Her mother was a former math teacher.

Keywords: Amish Country; Family; Lancaster, PA; childhood

Partial Transcript: It's nice to have siblings as you grow older and keep in touch with.

Segment Synopsis: KL has a younger sister and younger brother.

Keywords: brother; siblings; sister

Partial Transcript: [Her mother] would hear none of this girls can't learn math stuff.

Segment Synopsis: Her mother encouraged her to study math, despite the social convention that this topic was not suited for girls to study. She describes several influential teachers from her early education.

Keywords: early education; schooling; teachers

Partial Transcript: It was a pretty generic and kind of blue collar high school experience.

Segment Synopsis: She talks about her elementary and college-prep high school education.

Keywords: college; early education; high school; schooling

Partial Transcript: I remember a journalism teacher believe it or not who's responsible for such writing skills that I have.

Segment Synopsis: KL describes some influential high school teachers.

Keywords: high school; infleuntial teachers; writing

Partial Transcript: I was an avid of Saturday morning cartoons.

Segment Synopsis: She discusses the origins of her love for Saturday morning cartoons.

Keywords: cartoons; television

Partial Transcript: One of the factors in that decision in the end was it was hard for me to imagine going to a college that was smaller than my high school.

Segment Synopsis: Both her father and grandmother graduated from Cornell. Her mother graduated from a women’s college but she encouraged KL to attend a co-ed institution. She ultimately chose to attend Cornell.

Keywords: Cornell University; co-ed institution; college

Partial Transcript: I gradually gravitated more and more to arts and sciences.

Segment Synopsis: KL began her studies in the School of Architecture before switching to economics. She was one of two women who were economics majors at the time of graduation in 1963.

Keywords: economics; school of architecture; undergraduate

Partial Transcript: I was particularly active in the governance organizations that related to the residence halls.

Segment Synopsis: She played tennis and sailed during college. She was also active in student government.

Keywords: sailing; student government; tennis

Partial Transcript: I ended up taking a job with the Chase Manhattan Bank on Wall Street.

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall worked for Chase Manhattan Bank on Wall Street as a stock analyst after graduating from Cornell. She talks about econometric modeling.

Keywords: chase manhattan bank; econometric modeling; wall street; women in banking

Partial Transcript: In the time I was there on Wall Street Kennedy was shot.

Segment Synopsis: She recalls the death of President Kennedy.

Keywords: Assassination of President Kennedy; JFK; President Kennedy

Partial Transcript: I was brought up in a household where both of my parents were very active in the church, the Presbyterian church.

Segment Synopsis: She discusses the role of religion in her life.

Keywords: Presbyterian; religion

Partial Transcript: It was a curriculum that would be unrecognizable today by some business schools.

Segment Synopsis: The bank was willing to pay for her to pursue an MBA.

Keywords: Business School; MBA; NYU; bank

Partial Transcript: I ended up going back to Cornell.

Segment Synopsis: Eventually she desired a career change and returned to Cornell for graduate study

Keywords: cornell; graduate school; phd

Partial Transcript: I subsequently ended up doing a dissertation about how the mixed economy in Yugoslavia worked.

Segment Synopsis: She talks about her research and her work for an urban planning institute in Slovenia.

Keywords: Dissertation; Slovenia; Yugoslavia; research; urban planning

Partial Transcript: I had an offer from Syracuse University, which was nearby, to be an assistant professor there and I accepted.

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall entered the academic job market in 1969. She worked as an assistant professor at Syracuse for three years.

Keywords: Syracuse; assistant professor

Partial Transcript: I then had an offer to go to Johns Hopkins in connection to their center for urban policy.

Segment Synopsis: She then went to the Center for Urban Policy at Johns Hopkins, where she was both an assistant professor of economics and then an associate professor of public policy.

Keywords: Johns Hopkins; economics; public policy; urban policy

Partial Transcript: After I finished my stint in the Carter Administration and returned to Johns Hopkins, I was made Associate Professor of Public Policy

Segment Synopsis: Donna Shalala invited KL to join the Carter administration.

Keywords: John Hopkins; President Carter; Washington DC; public policy

Partial Transcript: At Hopkins I was part of a group that did some modeling work that related to what was the then the new industry of cable television.

Segment Synopsis: She talks about her academic career and her research in modeling the new cable television industry.

Keywords: cable TV industry; cable television; career; economics; modeling; public finance; research

Partial Transcript: The first time I met Donna I was a brand new assistant professor and there was something wrong with my paycheck.

Segment Synopsis: KL discusses her friendship with Donna Shalala.

Keywords: Syracuse; friendship

Partial Transcript: For three of three and a half years of the Carter Administration I was the Deputy Assistant Secretary reporting to Donna.

Segment Synopsis: She talks about working in the Carter administration in the area of housing assistance; HUD.

Keywords: Carter Administration; Deputy Assistant Secretary; HUD; area of housing assistance

Partial Transcript: I thought it was really a long shot but I came out and interviewed.

Segment Synopsis: Katie Morrison nominated KL for the Academic Vice Presidency at the UW System.

Keywords: Academic Vice Presidency; HUD; UW System; appointment

Partial Transcript: Donna's a great employee.

Segment Synopsis: KL talks about being Shalala’s boss.

Keywords: Donna Shalala; boss; employee

Partial Transcript: Essentially Joe recruited me to the job.

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall came to UW as Academic Vice President. Joe Kauffman recruited her to fill this position, which had been vacant.

Keywords: Academic Vice President; Joe Kauffman; uw madison

Partial Transcript: She was very energetic and very athletic until the end of her life.

Segment Synopsis: She talks about Joyce Erdman and her campus visit.

Keywords: Joyce Erdman; athletic; campus; university administration

Partial Transcript: He was a life time mentor and has influenced much of the style of many senior administrators at the Madison campus and at the system level.

Segment Synopsis: KL talks about executive vice president Joe Kauffman and his administrative style.

Keywords: Joe Kauffman; UW system; executive vice president; mentor; peace core

Partial Transcript: I think Joe's general ability to see the system as a whole made him someone that boards with trust with the search process.

Segment Synopsis: She assesses Kauffman’s impact on the UW System.

Keywords: Joe Kauffman; UW system presidents; influence

Subjects: Joe Kauffman; UW system; infleunce

Partial Transcript: David Ward was very explicit that he thought John Wiley would follow him, do you think that helped or hurt John Wiley's selection?

Segment Synopsis: KL discusses the selection of John Wiley as chancellor.

Keywords: John Wiley; UW-Madison; chancellor; chancellor wiley

Partial Transcript: I arrived in the middle of a budget cycle where a large budget cut was being handed down.

Segment Synopsis: Budget and politics dominated President O’Neill’s cabinet discussions.

Keywords: President O’Neill; budget; budget cuts; politics

Partial Transcript: It gave me a chance to really appreciate all the different places in the university that policy work is done.

Segment Synopsis: She talks about the LaFollette School Study Committee.

Keywords: LaFollette School Study Committee; Wisconsin idea; policy; politics

Partial Transcript: A statewide joint effort between government business and the university to ask what should be done to boost economic development in the state

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall continues to discuss the Economic Development Commission.

Keywords: Economic Development Commission.; UW system; Wisconsin strategic development commission; economics

Partial Transcript: Faculty salaries throughout the system really begun to lag behind peer groups

Segment Synopsis: She talks about the “great catch-up debate” concerning faculty salaries.

Keywords: Tony Earl; catch up plan; faculty; governor earl; salaries

Partial Transcript: It sounds to me as though the political driver for merger was essentially "stop us before we kill again"

Segment Synopsis: KL discusses the Merger of the UW System.

Keywords: The Merger of the UW System; UW System; UW-Madison; merger; universities

Partial Transcript: Another indication that the state budgeting process is broken

Segment Synopsis: Budget problems.

Keywords: budget; budget cuts; pay plans; state agency

Partial Transcript: Tony was quite accessible.

Segment Synopsis: She talks about her working relationship with Governor Tony Earl.

Keywords: Governor Tony Earl; Tony Earl; working relationship

Partial Transcript: O'Neil felt very uncomfortable dealing with legislatures.

Segment Synopsis: University Relations VP Ron Bornstein.

Keywords: Ron Bornstein; University Relations

Partial Transcript: Bob O'Neill is the scholar's scholar.

Segment Synopsis: She describes UW System President Robert O’Neill.

Keywords: UW System; UW System President Robert O’Neill; strengths and weaknesses

Partial Transcript: We had some up sessions and some down sessions.

Segment Synopsis: KL describes her monthly meetings with system vice-chancellors.

Keywords: UW system; catch-up debate; monthly meetings; vice-chancellors

Partial Transcript: The Executive Vice President job has a broader scope

Segment Synopsis: She talks about becoming Executive Vice President and her new job responsibilities.

Keywords: UW-Madison; budget; executive vice president; responsibilities

Partial Transcript: When O’Neill resigned you suddenly had three positions simultaneously: Acting President, Executive Vice President and Vice President for Academic Affairs.

Segment Synopsis: When O’Neill resigned, KL became Acting President as well.

Keywords: Acting President; Executive Vice President; Vice President for Academic Affairs

Partial Transcript: Buzz Shaw was not a scholar's scholar, he was a "get it done" kind of administrator.

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall was not considered as a candidate to replace President O’Neill; she attributes this to her divisive stance in the catch-up debate. She talks about the hiring of Buzz Shaw and the expectation that he would repair relations with the state legislature.

Keywords: Bob O'Neill; Buzz Shaw; President; catch-up debate; enrollment management; state legislature

Partial Transcript: Buzz was a pretty direct manager.

Segment Synopsis: She describes Shaw’s managerial style and his impact on the UW System.

Keywords: Buzz Shaw; Management; UW System

Partial Transcript: That was a particularly strong board

Segment Synopsis: KL talks about the Board of Regents during Shaw’s tenure. One of the major results was the enrollment management plan.

Keywords: Board of Regents; President Buzz Shaw; controversy; enrollment management plan

Partial Transcript: The argument of the Shaw Triangle was there are three legs to this stool.

Segment Synopsis: The “Shaw Triangle” included enrollment, tuition levels, and GPR state support; it stipulated that the Board of Regents could only control enrollment.

Keywords: Board of Regents; Shaw Triangle; budget cuts; enrollment management plan; tuition

Partial Transcript: It was very interesting to me, the discussions that went on behind the scenes

Segment Synopsis: At a private meeting between the Regent officers, Buzz Shaw, KL, and the legislative leadership from both state houses, legislators told the university representatives that the state didn’t have sufficient funds. In response the Regents agreed not to criticize the legislature if legislators agreed not to criticize adjustments to enrollment. This agreement held for a decade.

Keywords: Board of Regents; Enrollment Management Plan; WI State Legislature; private summit meeting

Partial Transcript: The real question is what is a sustainable quality level of education and what kind of resources does it require?

Segment Synopsis: The Governor’s office and the legislature insisted that the budget had to be cut during the first biennium (promising that it would be restored in the following biennium). So the university agreed to maintain enrollments for a couple years in the hope that funding would be restored thereafter. The funding was never restored; KL considers that the university is back at a crisis point in trying to determine the amount of funds necessary to provide quality education. The major change has been that there is currently greater tolerance for tuition increases.

Keywords: Budget cuts; Governor’s office; WI State Legislature; tuition increases

Partial Transcript: We got the positions back, but we didn't get the money back

Segment Synopsis: KL speaks again about the Shaw Triangle and the creation of new faculty positions that were underfunded.

Keywords: Shaw Triangle; faculty positions; funding; tuition

Partial Transcript: These days I don't think there's enough legislative leadership and discipline to honor a deal that might be cut.

Segment Synopsis: She thinks the current legislature lacks the leadership and discipline to honor agreements with the university.

Keywords: Wisconsin State Legislature; leadership

Partial Transcript: Gene was pretty rash, "what you see is what you get" kind of guy.

Segment Synopsis: KL talks about Gene Trawney, who was appointed to fill her position as Vice President of Academic Affairs. She discusses the Peaks of Excellence exercise.

Keywords: Gene Trawney; Peaks of Excellence exercise; Vice President of Academic Affairs

Partial Transcript: Subsequently I think the budget process has been the main vehicle for soliciting additional funding

Segment Synopsis: The budget process became the main process for the university to solicit more funds for programs.

Keywords: NGA effect; National Governor's Association; budget process; funding

Partial Transcript: The costs of universities are related more to the number of students than to the number of programs

Segment Synopsis: KL discusses the difficulty in convincing the Regents that the costs of universities are related more to number of students than to number of programs.

Keywords: Education Committee of the Regents; Universities; costs; enrollment; programs

Partial Transcript: That was the logical consequence of the faculty "catch-up debate"

Segment Synopsis: She discusses academic staff re-titling.

Keywords: academic staff; academic staff re-titling exercise; catch-up debate; faculty; re-titling

Partial Transcript: Rather than the structure of system administration changing, the senior personnel changed.

Segment Synopsis: She compares and contrasts the administration of UW System under O’Neill and Shaw. The structure remained the same but personnel changed; KL feels that much institutional memory was lost in the process.

Keywords: Bob O'Neill; Buzz Shaw; UW System; administration; senior vice presidencies

Partial Transcript: It's been an amiable relationship [with private colleges] by and large, the relationship with the technical college system as been rockier.

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall describes her relationship with the Wisconsin Independent Colleges Association and the technical system.

Keywords: Beloit College; Wisconsin Independent Colleges Association; private colleges; tech colleges; the technical system

Partial Transcript: I think his first instinct was always to be suspicious

Segment Synopsis: Lawrence Weinstein was the most challenging Regent during the 1980s.

Keywords: 1980s; Lawrence Weinstein; Regent; budget

Partial Transcript: I appreciated Jay's sense of the line between policy making and micromanagement

Segment Synopsis: She talks about the leadership of Regent Jay Smith.

Keywords: Regent Jay Smith; leadership; policy making; working relationship

Partial Transcript: That turned out to be a worthwhile agenda

Segment Synopsis: She talks about economic development

Keywords: Regent Jay Smith; economic development

Partial Transcript: Another Regent president that I think was very effective was Tom Lyon

Segment Synopsis: Tom Lyon led the Board during a more stable period of relations with the legislature.

Keywords: Board of Regents; Legislature; Regent President; Regent Tom Lyon

Partial Transcript: There seems to have been a great fear that if they [met less] they would be accused by the press of not doing their job

Segment Synopsis: KL thinks the Board of Regents meets too frequently.

Keywords: Board of Regents; Meetings; administrative costs

Partial Transcript: Did these positions that you held at these national organizations cause any friction with the chancellor at UW-Madison?

Segment Synopsis: She talks about positions she held with the Association of American Universities and the Council of Academic Affairs of the national Association of State University and Land Grant Colleges.

Keywords: Association of American Universities; Council of Academic Affairs; national Association of State University and Land Grant Colleges

Partial Transcript: I found Donna and David easy to work with for various reasons.

Segment Synopsis: KL discusses working with various chancellors, including Donna Shalala and David Ward.

Keywords: Bob O'Neill; Chancellor; David Ward; Donna Shalala; John Wiley; UW-Madison

Partial Transcript: From that very practical particular standpoint I think it's been advantageous.

Segment Synopsis: She comments on the merger of the UW System.

Keywords: UW System; UW System merger; campuses; policy documents

Partial Transcript: I got into this business through teaching and still get great satisfaction out of it

Segment Synopsis: KL talks about teaching economics. She thinks that the chancellor should have an academic background.

Keywords: Chancellor; President; economics; teaching

Partial Transcript: I guess looking back on it it was one of the most interesting part of my tenure here.

Segment Synopsis: She thinks her period as Academic Vice President was the most interesting time of her tenure at UW.

Keywords: Academic Vice President; UW system; UW-Madison

Partial Transcript: I think it really began to mature as a system when I became president

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall discusses the evolution of UW System during her tenure as President.

Keywords: Board of Regents; Buzz Shaw; UW System; UW System President

Partial Transcript: I think that effort was successful in some ways and not quite as successful as we would have hoped in some other ways.

Segment Synopsis: She talks about the development of an Economic Development agenda through five state-wide summit meetings.

Keywords: Economic Development; Milwaukee; economy; statewide; summit meetings

Partial Transcript: There were a couple of internal management things that we did and one other more or less external one.

Segment Synopsis: The Public Accountability Report was created to track UW System performance on measures relating to funding, student success, graduation rate, faculty distinction, etc.

Keywords: The Public Accountability Report; UW System; faculty distinction; funding; graduation rate

Partial Transcript: I think over the last 4 or 5 years that I was president, we experienced budget cuts equivalent to about a quarter of our base budget

Segment Synopsis: KL discusses the size of the UW System administration and the ways it is funded.

Keywords: GPR budget; UW System administration; budget cuts; funding; state funding

Partial Transcript: We've been talking now about the UW System's relationship to the state in terms of funding, are there other ways in which the relationship evolved during your term as President?

Segment Synopsis: She characterizes the relationship between the university and the state government as cyclical.

Keywords: Legislature; funding; political agenda; politics; state government

Partial Transcript: We were talking about the Legislature and the advantage of having the Senate in one party's hands and the Assembly in the other's

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall continues to talk about relations between the university and the state legislature.

Keywords: Governor; Legislature; bipartisan; nonpartisan; politics

Partial Transcript: One of the tools the Governor of Wisconsin has is a very powerful line-item veto, can you think of instances where that has either hurt or helped the university?

Segment Synopsis: The governor’s line-item veto has helped UW maintain its stem cell research agenda.

Keywords: WI governor; governor; line-item veto; stem cell research; veto

Partial Transcript: At least one of your predecessor has expressed the opinion that it's easier to deal with regents appointed by republicans than by democrats.

Segment Synopsis: KL talks about political appointments to the Board of Regents. Under the current pattern, the entire Board can change whenever the Governor changes.

Keywords: Board of Regents; democrats; governor; political appointments; republicans

Partial Transcript: Do you feel that regents in recent years have been appointed as a kind of political payoff for loyalty?

Segment Synopsis: She thinks regent appointments are a payoff for political loyalty.

Keywords: Board Of Regents; loyalty; partisan; payoff; politics; regent appointments

Partial Transcript: We hardly ever talk about the public good or the public interest anymore -- maybe we'll get back to that, I hope we will -- but that has made it a lot easier to off load the cost of higher education on students increasingly

Segment Synopsis: The growing tendency to see higher education as conferring private rather than public benefits has enabled the state government to pass on education costs to the student.

Keywords: cost of higher education; private; public; public good; public universities; small government; student debt

Partial Transcript: And then finally I think there's a real shift in how we think about inter-generational obligations

Segment Synopsis: KL thinks there has been a shift in perceptions about inter-generational obligations.

Keywords: generations; inter-generational; investment; legacy; parents; savings

Partial Transcript: Are there other things that you felt like motivated you throughout your term as president?

Segment Synopsis: She discusses the major themes of her presidency of UW System, including the development of a leadership group among the chancellors to develop budget requests.

Keywords: UW System; budget requests; chancellors; economic development; leadership; motivations; president

Partial Transcript: There were rough spots, although that rivalry as you know, is sort of rooted in history that's interesting.

Segment Synopsis: KL talks about the rivalry between UW-Madison and UW-Milwaukee.

Keywords: UW-Madison; UW-Milwaukee; Wisconsin; architecture; doctoral institution; history; regional planning; rivalry; success; urban university

Partial Transcript: As you look back on your presidency, what went particularly well and what are you proudest of?

Segment Synopsis: She hired 52 chancellors and fired 5 during her tenure as President of UW System.

Keywords: UW System; chancellors; economic summits; fire; hire; leadership group; proud; reputation

Partial Transcript: I was pleased that we were able to get a PK-16 council going with DPI and tech colleges

Segment Synopsis: A PK-16 Leadership Council with DPI and the technical colleges was set up on a voluntary basis.

Keywords: DPI; PK-16; PK-16 Council; PK-16 Leadership Council; tech colleges; technical colleges

Partial Transcript: We were talking about the PK-16 Council and looking at linkages

Segment Synopsis: Katherine Lyall continues to discuss the PK-16 Leadership Council.

Keywords: PK-16; PK-16 Council; PK-16 Leadership Council; credit transfer; curriculum; degree; for profit universities; technical colleges

Partial Transcript: Learning Innovations, which was the name we gave to the kind of subsidiary organization that the system created to invest in and sell online instructional materials and services.

Segment Synopsis: She talks about the creation of Learning Innovations, a subsidiary organization that developed online instructional materials and sold training services.

Keywords: Learning Innovations; business; online; online instruction; recession; training and instructional services; two sides

Partial Transcript: We had a system wide plan for increasing the presence of ethnic and racial minorities on our campuses, it's called Plan 2008.

Segment Synopsis: Plan 2008, which was developed during KL’s presidency, is a system-wide plan for increasing the presence of ethnic and racial minorities on campuses.

Keywords: Michigan; Plan 2008; affirmative action; diversity; ethnic and racial minorities; referendum

Partial Transcript: What efforts encountered the biggest roadblocks and were they overcome or how were they overcome?

Segment Synopsis: One of the main difficulties she encountered during her presidency was trying to encourage UW-Milwaukee to focus its efforts on developing strong programs in selected areas rather than emulating Madison.

Keywords: UW-Milwaukee; challenges; programs

Partial Transcript: I've been disappointed with our inability somehow to get our compensation on a rational market basis.

Segment Synopsis: KL has been disappointed with the inability to get faculty compensation on a rational market basis (as opposed to a political basis).

Keywords: compensation; employees; faculty; legislatures; market; politicized; politics; privatization; university

Partial Transcript: We were never really able to make a breakthrough in public appreciation of what the university does.

Segment Synopsis: She was also disappointed in failing to make a breakthrough in public appreciation of what the university does.

Keywords: Wisconsin; appreciation; extension; ignorance; program; public; retrospect; university

Partial Transcript: Suppose you imagine that you were giving advice to a new system president, what would you tell them?

Segment Synopsis: KL discusses the situation that would face a new president: she thinks the institutions in the UW System work well together and have good academic reputations. She thinks one downside is the “culture” in the state of criticizing the university; another is the decline of state support.

Keywords: UW System institutions; academics; culture; president; relationship; state support; system wide initiatives; world class

Partial Transcript: Thank you very much Katherine

Segment Synopsis: End of interview