Interview with Taj Matumbi

SOPHIA ABRAMS 0:00 Okay, this is Sophia Abrams interviewing Taj Matumbi. Today's date is Friday, January 8, 2021. It is 1:03 p.m. central time. I am currently in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And he is currently in Madison, Wisconsin. And this is for the UW Black Artists project. So my first question for you is, why UW Madison?

Taj Matumbi 0:32 Um, so to kind of backtrack, I went to a small liberal arts school in southeast Iowa, and a really small art department. And part of their advising, when I was applying to grad school, was to apply to fully funded state schools. There's like the common myth that if you want to be an art student, you have to go to like, some of the higher prestigious schools like Yale or the Art Institute, or Cranbrook and pay, again to like, you know, $270,000 with the college debt, and potentially still don't have any prospects for a job or any way to pay off that debt. So it's kind of been like a rich person's game, if you, if you want to, like, be kind of blunt about it. So and getting that advice from my mentor Gyan, from undergrad, she, she went to Cranbrook and she, you know, got into tons of debt. So that was like her main advice was like, apply only to state schools. And make sure that they give you, like, full funding, and you get health benefits. And so I applied to several state schools, University of Iowa, Washington State University, University of Tennessee, university, I applied to Penn State, Tyler School of Art. And UW offered me the most, like the best financial aid package. And the facilities here were really great, top notch, I thought, just checking out all the schools that I got accepted to. And yeah, that was the main thing, was, like, the studio spaces, facilities. And, like, the financial package was really awesome.

Sophia Abrams 2:28 So from that, I guess, what were your impressions of UW when you were applying? And perhaps when you toured it, if you toured it before you chose it?

Taj Matumbi 2:42 Yeah. So I, honestly, coming from California and going to school in Iowa, I wasn't really looking to stay in the Midwest at all. I didn't really know about Madison, or Wisconsin. And so when I got accepted, I was kind of hesitant, and my teacher from undergrad had some college friends from undergrad that went to UW, they came to my school for artists talk and I met them and we had studio visits. And then they-- I came for a tour. And I was really stoked off of just, like, being in a place that was more Metropolitan because I just came from a small town in Iowa. And it was kind of just like, a lot of I was like, very stimulated by the prospect of, like, being in grad school. And it's like, it's very exciting, stimulating. I didn't really think too much about. Yeah, I think I was just, like, super excited by, like, the idea of, like, being in grad school or like doing art, I didn't really think further than that. And I also really liked the program, because it was a three-year program. There's a lot a lot of two-year programs. And I feel like two years it's like not enough time to like, kind of like understand yourself and your research. So I think that's also like another, like, added benefit of UW.

Sophia Abrams 4:06 From that, so after, you know, applying to graduate schools and then hearing back and deciding to UW, so what were your first impressions of Madison that first week as a student?

Taj Matumbi 4:20 I think I had a lot of imposter syndrome like a lot of grad students have. I was pretty overwhelmed. I didn't feel like I belonged. Mainly because I just felt like incompetent and like straight out of undergrad and not like as talented or intelligent as some of my peers. So it was the first, first week it was just like moving here and getting settled was pretty intense. And I remember just kind of being, like, in a lot of, like, shock and, like, overwhelmed by just, like, being here. But everyone was really sweet. I moved to a co-op on Langdon with 20 other people. So that was kind of also another, like, intense. It was like, starting a new college. And then also like living with all these new strangers and this new town, they all had like different personalities. And so it was like, it was very intense. First, first week of living here, but it was beautiful, you know, sunny out still, people are still chillin outside and stuff.

Sophia Abrams 5:40 I guess from, from that upon, like, kind of getting acclimated to Madison at that time. What was it like? I guess, what were your impressions of the art department?

Taj Matumbi 5:52 So like I said before, like, I came from a small art department. So my frame of reference and, like, art departments is, like, pretty sparse, if I'm being honest. But I think initially, I wasn't super intrigued by a lot of the faculty. When I first came, I was more interested in, like, the facilities and the spaces and the studio spaces the grad students get while we're here, and then once I started working with the teachers and got to know them, kind of like, I guess, became a little less cynical, actually enjoyed a lot of the professor's here, the painting department's like really strong. I just didn't really I didn't, to be honest, I didn't really know what I was doing. So I didn't really have much expectations. The only thing that I put on myself is, like, pressure for that first semester was to make as much artwork as possible. So that, like, I can prove myself to my faculty. And I was honestly, like, taken aback by the, I was, the feedback I was getting was really good. And I feel like sometimes an art because it's so subjective, you feel like your professors are like, you know, lying to you or not telling you the truth, or they're being nice. But that's just because of, like, my own insecurities. And so it was nice to have that kind of continue in grad school, with like, new faculty, seeing my work without actually knowing me, or having any stake in it. And still, like, you know, like, pick up that, like, train of thought to do my, like, research. So that was, I think it was, it was pretty good. But I think initially, I was kind of skeptical of all the faculty like the clout that they had, but once getting to know them, it kind of was like chilled out.

Sophia Abrams 7:38 I guess from that, you mentioned, research. So what kind of research were you getting then? Or like, in general, what research have you done? As a grad student that informs your art?

Taj Matumbi 7:51 For sure. Yeah. So I would say like, my, I did, I did my last semester of undergrad and my postback, I started working on this project of dealing with American iconography, that I was kind of creating my own images that symbolized certain qualities of America that I was interested in, like, violence, gun violence, vanity, kind of like this macho cowboy culture. And in undergrad, they were kind of just like, more abstract and just kind of shapes. And I haven't, I didn't really, like, develop the concepts or like, specific narrative around these images. But as I came to grad school, and started developing these images, more and more, and they became more figurative, the narrative started to develop and then I, also my second year of grad school I took-- We all get the privilege ticket outside elective. So I took an African American civil rights class and, and that was from history class from reconstruction, all the way up until like the civil rights and also dealing with some of the incarceration issues of, like, the 20th century and 21st century. So like, pretty much from from like, emancipation all the way up to like, modern day. And so I think that research kind of crystallized some of the concepts and issues that I was kind of, like, curious about, but I didn't have, like, the research or knowledge or confidence to explore those things. So that's, that's something that I, I explored kind of heavily like I was still like, kind of like picking up some of the residual from undergrad and then the second year I kind of like pulled it all together and made my MA show which was kind of like reflection of my experience being an American as a biracial person, and all my different experiences, and, and like kind of like a critique of, of racism in America and how it's like, perforated throughout our history and different like, you know, ways, manifestations. And so I think like going back to like undergrad I was like I said, I was an Iowa small town. And this was right around the time Charlottesville was happening, and there's always riots and stuff. And so I had, I was, it was one night, it's kind of a tangent, but one night, I was going to my studio, listening to music, having a good time. And just like walking outside the art department. And some, some kids, some high schoolers were like, in their car, and they started, like, swearing at me, all these obscenities and death threats, just for like me existing, and being black. And so, and that increased more with like, you know, the rise of Trump and rise of just like ignorance in America, which was always there, like, I always experienced it, but it was like more in the forefront. And so I think, having all that kind of conspiring, and then going into grad school, and it made me feel like a certain responsibility, or not even responsibility, but it gave me agency to talk about this uncomfortable situation that's been there my whole life. But most of the time, when I am in a space, which is usually like a room full of white people, they're very uncomfortable, and they don't want to talk about it. So I think a lot of it was trying to like kind of, like, understand that dynamic better and understanding like the isolation, and otherness I felt, and trying to, like, depict that in my work, not like one to one, but like, something that's like, more poetical, or, like has more poetics. And like, kind of gives light to those issues, but also transcends past those issues that I deal with and like, that are universal looks like what I'm going for, but the research is still at its infancy, to be honest, because I'm, I'm only 26 and I'm planning to paint it for the rest of my life. So but yeah, I think, and then this year, I'm getting to a point where I'm trying to wrap up my final thesis show. And I'm sure as, as a historian, you might be familiar with the, the kind of stereotype that like black artists have to like, their subject matter has to be about blackness. And, there's like, the other side of it, where it's like, oh, you're just like, you're not a black artist, you're just an artist. And so there's like, kind of two, two coins to that argument. And I go back and forth, feeling like, well, I should, I should have talked about this. And then also like, feeling kind of, like, I don't have a place to talk about this, because I, my experience has been so like, kind of nuanced because of like, privilege and where I was where I grew up, where I went to undergrad, where I where am I grad school now. So it's like, it's not like I like, grew up from the south, like my father did or anything, or, like, grew up like Jerry Butler, and like, you know, Jim Crow South. So it's like, my experiences are valid and real, but they're always felt like some type of weird, like, gimmicky, like cashing in on my, on my, like, my, like, struggle, which doesn't feel, like, super authentic. So I'm grappling with that, and I probably will continue to grapple. I think I talked about it a little bit on the, on the panel for the mural project. But yeah, it's just like, wanting, wanting to use my platform for good, but then also wanting to be authentic to myself and to my audience and viewers, just having, like, integrity in my work. But I guess that wasn't a super clear answer to your question. Sorry.

Sophia Abrams 14:09 No. Yeah. I was gonna ask you about kind of that tension as a black artist in terms of like, what are you creating? Like, are you creating intentionally black art, kind of, like, the dilemma that black artists in the US kind of, or arguably anywhere, but like perpetually face and stuff? And I guess, you talked about, like, the nuance and like, the tension and like the uncertainty of that, and like kind of how that will always be a thing. So I guess I'm curious, curious in terms of that sentiment, did you feel or do you feel, even now, as a graduate student, about to graduate, that that really kind of dictates how people perceive your art, or that there's still an expectation, arguably especially now, that you need to be creating intentionally black art,

Taj Matumbi 15:03 I would say grad school, even undergrad is such a safe space that they, they, they usually the faculty if they're good, they advise you that they know this could be like kind of a difficult path to walk. So I think that like, they, I've been given full permission, since I've been here to totally go for it, explore, like, go for it completely. They have warned me that it can be taxing, like, on the heart and like emotions and just navigating it can be tricky. So yeah, it's for me, it's like, I keep on wanting just to make art because it's like, talking about a lot of the issues around my, my race and my experience with being biracial, and the incidences I've had, dealing with race in America, caused me a lot of pain to talk about just normally. So it's like, it's, it's, if that's in the work, it's fine. But it's, it's hard. I haven't healed myself enough to be able to like talk about it in a plain and even keel way at this point. But I think that part of, part of me is always going to be in the work explicitly or implicitly. I think it kind of swings back and forth, depending on how I'm feeling. You know, I think like, right after George Ford got lynched in front of on live TV. I started making, you know, drawings of like cops with kids getting their needs pressed on. So like, sometimes it will be like super. And my MA show was like super explicitly critiquing American history, and contemporary America and kind of just the racist kind of signifiers that most of us won't even recognize because our, our history is so whitewashed. And I think that's another important aspect of it is like, I, as a person that grew up in, like, white communities, I wasn't exposed to any of this stuff. So I had to, like, search it out. So I feel like white people also are not, not aware of it. So I think, like, as beyond of, like, doing a service to myself, and, like, educating myself, like, if I could also educate, like, just one person, to the point where they're like, "Oh, shit, like, I didn't even know that was the thing." I would feel like I succeeded, you know. And that's, that's like, and then also like, just being, I feel like having a, be like swinging back and forth from like, explicitly making work about race or implicitly being about race. Like, if younger, black artists see my work, and it doesn't necessarily. like it, my style might shift. And so if the work looks super about something that they're like, into, that doesn't have to do with race, they can see that, like, a black person can make art, and it could look any specific way. The main thing is, it's like a possible option. I feel like a lot of people don't even know it's a path. And it's definitely a very difficult and challenging path. But I think it's very liberating, and can give, give one, give yourself purpose and agency in your life that is unmatched. But yeah, it's, um, it's really, it's really difficult to navigate. Because I feel like, especially in the art market, currently, there are a lot, a lot of successful African American artists, like Kara Walker, Kerry James Marshall, you know, Theaster Gates, there's like all these heavy hitters. And I know that they are like, some of them are enjoyed, like exploring this part of the history of America. But I know a lot of them have expressed, it's been taxing, and they are sick of being like, you know, the artworld's spokesman for black people. And so I think it's something whether your work deals with black issues or not, it's something that the white art world is going to expect from you, I think, I imagine, but an arts art school, it's like, so safe, and everyone's kind of on your side, that they're not gonna like, they're gonna let you do whatever you want. The whole purpose of art school is to explore and fail, and figure out what you want to do for the rest of your life. So it's like coming out of the gate of grad school and like, being super sure of yourself is like, kind of a joke, and you're probably full of it. But yeah, that's, that's my sentiment, I would say that it's probably always gonna be there, but it's gonna manifest differently as I mature and get older and gain more experience and knowledge about myself and different histories that I'm interested in.

Sophia Abrams 19:45 That's interesting, I guess, kind of like going back off, so like, I guess that sentiment informs a lot of this. So going back to your first semester, you kind of talked about that was kind of a time, as for many people, just trying to become acclimated with a place and like, find your, like, where you fit into that. So I'm curious to know, like, are there any notable exhibitions that you were a part of that semester? Or any, like, notable people that you met that first semester? Who were really or continue to be influential on you?

Taj Matumbi 20:24 Yeah. Um, so I, that first semester, we, we all have like, kind of like, like, each, each department has like a survey show. So it'll be like a painting show, sculpture show. And then it'll be like a cohort show. So like, your first year show, all your first-year classmates. And I, I think I vibed with a lot of the second and third-year graduates more because I felt like my cohort, I was, like, in direct competition with them. And I was like, less threatened by the elders because they were like, on their way out, kind of and they, they were more secure within themselves that it just felt like easier to like, talk to so a lot of this a lot of the my good friends that I the relationships that I've kind of fostered was here were students that have graduated last year and the year before. And I think, having, I don't know if you met Pranav Sood. But he is from India. And he is, he's a painter who does kind of like, like, kind of like pop optical, miniature Indian paintings. So they're like, it's kind of like a contemporary take on miniature Indian painting opinions, but he like has his own style. And he was my age, you know, a year ahead of me, but we're the same age, and really, really fantastic painter and really good work ethic. So I think just having somebody that was like my age, and that was like super solid. It was, like, very inspiring. He just moved out to New York. And he had like, he was in the tri, triennial, and at MMOCA. And so like just having a classmate that was like, really kind of like pushing it. And it gave me kind of like a competitive, like, we had, like, kind of a competitive, like, dialogue between each other's work. And that was like, really healthy. And we're still in conversation, I might, I might move out to New York, to go live with him. So we'll see. And then I would say, like, Anwar has been a really good mentor. He's really busy. So we haven't chilled that much over the three years. It goes by really fast, honestly. But um, he was always very helpful. And yeah, I'm just having him like, kind of be like, kind of, like, older brother figure, who was always like, very positive and have, like, constructive and meaningful insights into my work. And just like always, like, glowing joy. Those were like, probably like my two like, my peeps for like, the last two years. And then also, we have I don't know if you know Fred Stonehouse, he's a painter, faculty. He does crit group, which I, when I came to grad school, I thought that's what grad school would be, like, where you it's pretty much you just all the different departments get together and talk about a student's artwork for like, an hour each week. And that was, I think, that was another aspect of grad school that was really, like, important for me just like having dialogue with, like, multiple artists, hearing different, like, ideas, concepts, cold reads, and like getting as many people to look at your work as possible. Like, it's like, there's no other time really in life that you get that and like outside of grad school, you know, your friends probably won't even be as like honest, as they will tell you if it's, if it's good, but they won't tell you if it's bad type of thing, you know. So that was, that was really, really helpful for me, like just feeling grounded and feeling part of the community. And then in terms of, like, faculty, my first semester, I really, I really got along with TL. And obviously Fred Stonehouse and Nancy, Nancy Mladenoff, she retired. I think she retired, yeah, two years ago, or, yeah, she retired like my-- yeah, she retired last year. And she, she was really sweet. She kind of had like a very like, just nurturing like, Mom quality, very supportive at different times where I was like, on the fence feeling like pretty depressed about grad school and like wanting to graduate, she's like no Taj, you gotta keep going, like, super encouraging me, like, telling me about opportunities to apply for jobs and help me with funding. And she even helped me, like, with my install for my MA show, even though she was in New York, I was like sending her images. And she, like, helped me out -- that really saved my ass. So yeah, those like those were. It's really sad because Nancy and TL retired these last two years. They were like, probably my favorite. When I first got here. Yeah, and I don't know. I'm not sure if I answered that, I'm sorry.

Sophia Abrams 25:45 Oh, yeah. Um, I was also curious, too, in terms of, you talked about, like, the first year exhibitions, but like, did you have any notable pieces that you put into it that first semester?

Taj Matumbi 25:59 I guess. I didn't really like looking back on it. I'm not really that excited about any of the work I made my first year, being perfectly honest. But all the paintings that I put in shows were received well, I just think like with time and like having them sit in my studio for the last two years, I'm like, these actually aren't that good sitting next to, like, the new paintings. So not really. I'm sorry.

Sophia Abrams 26:25 No, you're good. I guess from that. So before we jump to your second semester, 2019 spring semester. Are there any other kind of final thoughts about that first semester that you think is worthwhile?

Taj Matumbi 26:46 Yeah, just thinking back here. Yeah, I don't know, if something comes to me, I'll take a note of it. But I'm like, the first semester was so kind of, like, so, like, high stress, just, like, kind of like just blacked out like most of it, like, honestly, it's just like, it's very traumatizing and scary. But I made it through it. Yeah, I think I'll probably have to get some therapy for that, but these these last three years of my life,

Sophia Abrams 27:37 Oh, my gosh. Or I guess I had one question kind of from that, too. So like, from my research, it seems to be that a year ahead, like in terms of grad students, black grad students, you and Rita were in the same cohort. Anwar was a year ahead of you. And then I don't believe that there were anymore or unless I could I could be wrong. But I'm just kind of curious if there

Taj Matumbi 28:04 No, there hasn't been.

Sophia Abrams 28:05 In terms of like, how what, how was that? Or how is that now?

Taj Matumbi 28:11 That's It's worse than it was I don't know if well it's not good. Like I, I will say that I did come to tour of the school. I remember I came with one of my my buddies, this white guy. And we met Anwar on the tour in humanities. I was like, "Man, you see, there's another black guy. Hey, we got one in the whole school." And Rita and I get along, but we're not in the same department, so we don't cross paths very often, honestly. But yeah, I think last year I think there's been a few like LGBTQ people and a few people from, like, different ethnicities But no, no people of color. We, we have this, we have this, I think he's, like, a, there's a, there's a, there's a guy working and in the paper department he's from, I think he's from like Ghana or something. But I don't think he's a student. He's just like, works with paper professor. I don't think he like constantly graphs in it. But yeah, I know, one of the reasons why I wanted to go to Tyler School of Art in Pittsburgh, or no, it's in Philly, was cuz there's more. I wanted to be more around more people of color, but it's, I didn't get in there. So yeah, I would say in that department, pretty weak. But a lot of the schools that I even looked at, they were, like, there's like one black person or none. So maybe you're going to a school in a different location or like in a city would be better for that. But I don't, I don't know if there are that many like African Americans getting their MFAs. But I'm sure there are, I just like, I don't know, I feel like in undergrad too. Like, I didn't learn about any black artists, I like had to like seek them out. It's like this weird. It's a weird it's a weird kind of world to be in because the art world is like very classist, and very, like, there's like, all this kind of like, racist stuff in the air that's not talked about. But then it's all like masked with like, neoliberal savior complex. So it's, I don't know, I feel, I felt, I don't want like no shade at UW. But I felt like I was just like a placeholder for them. And I'm okay with that. It's obviously not ideal. Doesn't feel super cool. But I will, I will take whatever help people give me, like less reflection of me, you know?

Sophia Abrams 30:57 Yeah. I guess I'm curious to see, like now, like, going on to, like, your spring 2019 semester in terms of like, how you kind of talk about navigating identity, like within art, especially kind of as like, undergrad, and like, you weren't really necessarily exposed to black artists and stuff. So I'm kind of curious. So like, starting the spring semester, like, what did that look like to you? Maybe what themes did you, like, deepen when you were, like, painting? Or just kind of like, what was that time? like for you?

Taj Matumbi 31:35 Yeah. I think for that spring semester. Okay. Yeah, that was the semester that I took art history. Yeah, that's spring semester. So like, the first year is like a lot of just like getting out like your, your requirements for like art history, like seminars. And then the rest is like meeting faculty to form your committee. So like, you're meeting with, like, all the faculty, and they're just trying to get to know you and get to know your work. And you tell them like about yourself from bio background, what not what you're interested in. And I think what I ran into were like, obviously, a lot of professors would just, like, give lists of black artists that they think I thought I should look at. And I had that happen in undergrad, where it felt like very, like, kind of, kind of, like, racist or rude, where they'd be like, "Oh, do you know about like, Mark Bradford or like, Basquiat?" It's like, duh, I know about, like, you know, but like, I feel like in grad school, they were... I feel like a lot of the faculty were they to just kind of, like, throw stuff out there to see if it stuck for me. And it didn't, it didn't feel it didn't feel as like as like, oh, you're a black person, you should be interested in this. I felt like they're actually trying to help me compared to like, past experiences. But yeah, I don't I'm not even trying to throw my undergrad school under the bus either. Like they they did expose me to some black artists, but I just remember like, wanting to kind of like, explore that avenue. And they're like, no Taj, "You're just an artist, you know." I think that they honestly, they were just trying to, like, protect me from that, that whole avenue because it can be it can get, like, kind of dicey. But I think. Yeah, like working. I remember like, I think it was like TL or something like, told me I should. I should, I should like, or, like, told me about something about, like, some experience. And I was like, like, I don't know, it's just like, it's a weird power dynamic with, like, professors, and being a student where like, they think they know more about something more than you. But then if you're talking about something nuanced about, like, race, that's like, and then they're like a white guy, like they can't, they might like want to, like, know more and and you're like, telling them something that's like, doesn't align with their reality or truth. And so I kind of had some, like, awkward, like, I say the main things like exploring this work, you're gonna have like, a lot of awkward, awkward conversations with people that are that are white, and they're gonna, like, they're gonna like, their guards gonna be down sometimes. And they'll say stuff that's kind of off the cuff. It's a little uncomfortable, but I don't think it's, that's the type of, like, racism that I've dealt with in America my whole entire life and I'm sure you know about it. And it doesn't bother me as much as like, obviously getting like projectiles thrown at me or death threats. But it does definitely, like, make an uncomfortable atmosphere in the room and definitely, like, creates that experience of, like, feeling othered or just not like or like not validated. It's like, oh, you're lying or something. Which really sucks, but I think my main thing was I, I think I had a lot of, like, ego and, like, grandiose confidence about my, like, painting painting practice before I even came to grad school. So like, whatever faculty or friends or classmates told me that I didn't believe I was just like that rolled off my back, I try not to, like, take any of that shit too seriously, because it's like, I'm just gonna keep doing my thing. I think the main thing for this practice is you have to be true to yourself, and you have to listen to yourself. So letting people get under your skin or bother you because they might not understand specifically what you're talking about, or where you're coming from, i's like, that's, that's bound to happen, like, you happen with my MA show. Like, I can't expect, like I was saying earlier, like, if, if one person, you know, gains new insight or gains new perspective, that's great. But like, you can't convince everybody, and you can't convince everyone to see what you want to see. Especially if you're making work that's so kind of feeling-based and subjective. But, yeah, that, that spring semester, for me, it really, it really made me think that even the whole year just made me realize that like, okay, like, I'm, I'm trying to get help with these ideas and concepts that are kind of like personal and specific to like a specific race from these, like white artists, and they're trying to, like, act as like conduits for like, texts and knowledge, the art world and black artists, black art, and then trying to, like, share with me, so it's bound to get kind of awkward sometimes. But I feel like it's definitely, like, less awkward, like dealing with like Leslie or Faisal, when we were talking about these topics, you know, and like, we can kind of banter and, and call out some of the awkwardness that happens when we're talking to white people. And so like, that's obviously nicer. So I probably would have enjoyed that more. But I think both sides are just as interesting. And honestly it's, it's kind of funny to like, see people out themselves. But I don't know, I know, this is gonna be recorded. So hopefully--

Sophia Abrams 37:19 Yeah, well, also, too, like, I'll send you this back. And like, if there's anything you don't want, we can always take it out if you're like,

Yeah, but we can or we can always do, like, a bleep. Whatever you want. Um, I guess, too. So like, in my notes, I have a few shows that I didn't have to dates and I'm just kind of wondering if, like, so I have the um. Oh, let's see Madison gallery night, 5/5/17. So I guess that was maybe before you started, um, free range versus cage free", "lost boots," and "look back move forward." Did you make those like your first or second year? Or?

Taj Matumbi 38:10 What are those? Those are pieces right.

Sophia Abrams 38:14 Oh, okay. Sorry. I have it under, like, exhibition/art. So we're. So I have, like, the Madison Gallery Night on May 5, 2017.

Taj Matumbi 38:25 That must be wrong with the date, because I wasn't in Madison.

Sophia Abrams 38:28 Yeah.

Taj Matumbi 38:30 I think, I believe... And I have the name of that piece. And it wasn't like Space Cowboys or something bohemian space?

Sophia Abrams 38:38 I think I think let me. I don't have it. I was just curious. I found that I think that's the name. I don't have it in my notes.

Taj Matumbi 38:52 Oh, it was called "Five Five." Yeah, so we, I didn't have any off-campus shows the last three years. And so all the shows that I've been in have been group shows. And the only other, like, kind of public art I did was the mural over the summer. And then I currently have some work installed at Artists and Craftsmen. And also Communication. But those, yeah, all the I can, I can send you in my CV list. If you want. That'd be easier afterwards.

Sophia Abrams 39:36 Sure. Yeah. And I was just kind of curious just to like, if those were, like, important and meaningful for this conversation. Um, but like, we'll definitely talk about like the State Street mural and like more about your MA show and then, like your MFA show too, or what will be your MFA show. Yeah, um, and then too, so I guess like, post your first year. Like, what was that summer like? Summer 2019, after you completed your first year of grad school, kind of reflecting on that time, but also, you know, trying to think about how you're going to move forward with your art.

Taj Matumbi 40:16 Yeah, so post that, the first year, my girlfriend and I, we, we moved out of the co-op, the first spring semester, so or the fall semester, so the spring semester, we had this new place on West Gilman, and finished up school. It was, it was, you know, it was a lot, but I got through it. And then we decided to get a dog. And so that, like, occupied a lot of my time, I was just like, hanging out this puppy. And training her, we ended up not keeping her. So a lot of my time was dealing with that and like, you know, like, like relationship, like trying to pretend that I was like, adulting in the big city, or whatever. But yeah, I would say that, that summer, I wasn't making as much work. Um, I still had a lot of the imposter syndrome, you know, like, my first year and even post, like, the summer 2019, I was still like, nervous to, like, go to the studio and like, see people, you know, like, I only wanted to go like a night and like no one else was around and like, I would only like want to work in my studio if my girlfriend, like, come with me, it's like real baby stuff. And I, I, I think I really got into, like, a groove, my, the fall of, of 2019. Because that's when I started, like, I started drawing more. And I started to do a lot of, like, work at home. I started doing collages and just trying to, like, constantly make work because I was spending a lot of time with my girlfriend. And I could only, like, justify that being in grad school, while if I like made work also, and I was at home with her. And that I think that that work kind of led into my interest for my, for my MA show. And it also that, that, that fall semester, after the summer, it's when I took the civil rights course. So that's like when I started, like kind of like, thinking more about my research and why I wanted to make, rather than trying to, like, pump out paintings for, for the sake of having, like, lots of work in my studio, and not really thinking too much about it. Because that first year, it's like, that's what I think I'm really thankful for the three-year program. That first year, it's like, you're so overwhelmed with all these different responsibilities and different, like, tasks, you have to manage and navigate. And so that first year is like, pretty much like, as long as you like, pass your classes, like you're happy. And then the second year really starts to, like, get serious. And because it's like the time is, is, like, you know, you won't have as much time and you got to get ready for your show in the spring. And so I think taking that outside elective, and, you know, I had a couple grad students that weren't art students in that class. And we got to work together on a few different projects, and just being around people of color, and getting to vibe with them was, like, really nice. And talking about like, just issues that we all share and kind of laughing, laughing at the pain, so to speak. And yeah, I think, that, that that semester is when I started really, like, picking up steam, like I was always pumping out work. But I think that's when I started, like, really starting to like crystallize some of the concepts that I was interested in, and the ideas that I was interested in and kind of taking it like little not more seriously, but just more intention, like, between each piece and how it was working. Because in undergrad I was very, like, intuitive and like feeling-based. And I think in grad school there's like this responsibility where it's like you gotta, like, know why you're doing things, what you're talking about. So it's not, like, enough just to be like, Oh, yeah, I just follow my intuition, kind of feel it out. Like Jackson Pollock or something, you know. It's not, it's not enough because that's like, you're in grad school and they're there to, like, challenge you and push you and make you grow. So I'd say the first year I really took advantage of not growing too much and just being, like, ignorant and egotistical where I just thought like as long as I was making work, that's only thing that matters. And passing classes of course, but that, that-- I'd say the third .the third semester is when everything kind of, like, picked up.

Sophia Abrams 45:01 I'm curious how you mentioned, I think maybe through the African American Studies class, you met other fellow graduate students of color, and then you guys collaborated on projects. So what were those projects?

Taj Matumbi 45:15 Well, we just like we had to, so there's two, Angelica and Greg. And I think they were in sociology, and maybe history, or I forget what Angelica was in. But we just like, we would study together, it wasn't like group projects or anything, but it was like we just studied together and we like helped each other like, like, you know, peer-review each other's papers, we had to do like, a 10-page paper, while the undergrads had to do like a, like a five page or something. And so like, just working with, like, grad students that were of color outside of my department, and like, getting to the we didn't spend that much time together. But like, the brief amount of times we spent together and hung out, it was just, it was really nice to be, like, recognized from like, a different, like, field completely and still feel like, you're like you have peers, I think that made me feel like I was like, actually didn't deserve to be in grad school. And I was worthy of being there. Because I felt like Greg and Angelica were like, very, like, positive and supportive. And we were like, kind of just like a support pack. Because it was really challenging. Really great class was definitely, like, academically challenging, especially for me to struggle with that much reading and writing. But yeah, and also just meeting like, Greg, like, went to Yale. And this is like, super, super intelligent. And I remember him, like telling me, so you seem like pretty learned and like, you know what you're talking about. And so I think, like, hanging out, being in that class gave me a little more confidence in myself just as a person. And as a student. And also made me feel like I had some like, camaraderie amongst like, students of color, which was nice, which I didn't really have. Because like, Anwar was so busy and Rita, we're in the same department, but we've probably seen each other like twice in the last, like three years. But yeah, I don't know if that really answers your question. But--

Sophia Abrams 47:28 Yeah, no, I was just curious if it was, if it was like projects in terms of like, external projects, that you all were collaborating, but it sounds more like schoolwork, but like really kind of like, finding, like getting to know each other through the schoolwork.

Taj Matumbi 47:42 Exactly. Yeah.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 47:43 Hmm. I guess, too, so. Do you have any other notable memories about that experience, or that semester? It sounds like it was a semester of like growth and really kind of like, finding like, really, I mean, first semester, you can talk about first year, the time when you're just finding your place. But like, the fact that first semester of your second year seemed like, okay, like the wheels were in motion like you kind of know where you want to go. So are there any other notable events before we talk about your MA show? A little more?

Taj Matumbi 48:19 Yeah. Let me think about it. So yeah. All 2019. Oh, yeah, so the other thing that was notable, I think this would probably have definitely had to do with like, helping me feel more confident and just like, grow as an artist. But also, just like, I felt like I'd, like, more privileged because like that, that first year is, like, painful. And so you definitely have, like, more confidence, you're like, not a first year anymore. But then we also get a select, like, we have first pick on studios. So like, my first year, I had a studio that didn't have open ceilings, and it was, like, kind of small, and, like, dank. And the second year, technically I got it like at the end of the summer. I got, like, a, one of the nice studios with the huge skylight, and like awesome lighting. And so, like, for the first time I like all this wall space and like my girlfriend and I, like, organized my studio like super, like, meticulously like color coordinated everything, all the paint. And so I think that's that that semester is like when I started to feel like a little more. Like I was saying earlier, I felt like, I, like, actually was an artist and I actually, like, meant like was supposed to be in grad school. And I wasn't just some poser. It started it started to all start to feel, like, more real and that, that I had like I had, like, a good reason to be there just as much as anyone else and talent and know how. And so I think that that kind of gave me momentum for the, for the spring semester.

Sophia Abrams 50:11 So then I guess now talking about your spring semester, so what was it like in terms of kind of finally being able to have your MA show, um, "God Gave Noah the Rainbow Sign, No More Water the Fire Next Time."

Taj Matumbi 50:26 So that was that, that, that process was, it was pretty stressful because I had maybe like a third of the work done that Fall semester. And I went home again for winter break. So I had, like, you know, like, 10 days that I was in California, like not doing anything to something, you know, thinking about my work. And I had a lot of angst over that time when I was visiting my family. And then I went back, and I was like, all right, like, this is, this is it, like I have to pull everything together, I have like pretty much have to work like every day up until install, and then also like, install everything to finish on time. So it was like just grinding, like just pure grinding. I had to drop out of my seminar class. I think I dropped out like twice, like, entered it. And then I dropped out and reentered, then dropped out. So I thought I was gonna do my seminar and prepare for my show. And I was like, "Nope, I can't, I just gotta like, focus on this," which was positive. And I think the main thing for me that I had, like, I had three giant panels that were like, I think, like eight by, eight by eight feet, each panel. And then I had these small portraits that were like 10 by 15 inches bisecting the three panels, and or intersecting the three panels. And so, like, that was like the biggest piece I'd ever made. And I made it in my studio, which was like a small kind of space. And I installed the backspace gallery, which is, like, massive, so I didn't know what it was gonna look like back there. There was a lot of things I just didn't know if they were gonna work out. And I like it just kind of fell together. I don't know, like I, it was, it was almost like I, I took, like, back seat and like some spiritual part of myself just, like, kind of took over. And I'd say that was three months, where like, I was just like, in this zone that I've never been in, like, even getting back to that zone, like this semester. It's like, I don't know how, I don't know, I can't even articulate how I did it. It's the things you pull off in grad school. Hopefully I can do it again. But yeah, that was like, really important for me. It was also kind of scary. I don't know if you've been back there, but like, there's no one back there. And I had like this giant ladder. And I was like installing myself constantly had like the fear that I was, like, gonna fall off the ladder, like break my neck. Like, oh, this dingy part of the backspace. But, um, yeah, it was-- I think the, the main thing for me that, that spring semester was realizing that I didn't have to make work on canvas, that my second year I started making work on paper, like towards the end. And I haven't made work on canvas really since then. So this idea like there's a notion of like craft art or like fine art. And if you want to be like a real painter, you have to paint on, like, a substrate like stretcher. And I think embracing some of that, like, kind of craft -based Fine Art quality in my practice allowed me to have that success in that show and get through some of the ideas conceptually in a lot quicker speed and time that I wouldn't have been able to accomplish making like a giant painting of that scale. So strategically it worked out and it also allowed me to kind of, like, heal myself through a lot of the trauma that I was telling you about from undergrad with just, like, dealing with people throwing, like, eggs me or calling me names and threatening me when I was just hanging out around going to school. So I think yeah, it just it all kind of like it was a huge, like, reflection of, like, the last like five years of my life and in a very, like, organic, natural kind of unfolding of events. And I think the main thing like just for any other artists out there, theymay listen to this someday. So Just like kind of knowing to trust, trust the process and trusting yourself. Even if it's not necessarily, like, clear where you're going, like, knowing that you are going somewhere and it's gonna, like, if you keep, keep working hard, it will lead you to success and happiness. But there's always just like, it's always just like the next thing, so you can't get too... I think that was another like, I guess critique of that show is like, I kind of like put everything into it. And it's like, "Well, shit, what do I do now?" Like, "How do I have a show to match this like, oh, like, I remember when I classmates told me after the show, he's like, awesome show, man. Like, I'm curious what you'll do next. And I was like, I just finished this, like, people leave me alone. Like, I don't want to think about making art right now. But, um, yeah, it was, um, I also had, like, a lot of friends come in, and like, give me advice on installing. And like, had a lot of different people, like, give me different suggestions. As I said, Nancy Mladenoff off like, gave like the final say, of what the show should look like. But, uh, I think that was kind of hard to where I was like, "Well, I don't know if like, are these people like telling me the truth?" Like, what if you're trying to like, have me install like a crappy show, say, like, want me to, like, do bad, like a lot of doubt. Unnecessary, but it's definitely there. But yeah, it was. It was a great experience, we had to apply for the backspace, which was kind of annoying, and like, write a proposal. And I named the piece after James Baldwin's book The Fire Next Time. And I wrote like a history project or a paper on him. And in that, that class and the following semester, the spring or the fall semester. And so and my dad has been like, really interested in James Baldwin, like, since I was like, throughout my childhood, probably his whole life. But um, he my dad grew up in actually, Greenwood Mississippi, and he was like, during the Jim Crow South, and he was, he's, he's actually bisexual. So I think that's like, why he kind of vibes James Baldwin. But I didn't even know James Bond was a person until I was like, probably like, 20. Like, yeah, like 21 or 22. I think the first time I heard about him was from that movie, "I'm Not Your Negro." And so I that shows like I was, I use the, the texts from that from James Baldwin, like, I was kind of critiquing, like, one panel said dark town follies, which was from the book is a book of poems by a Amuad Jamal Johnson. And he, he took music notes, or he studied music notes from the reconstruction, like, like, period that were people were making, like lots of like, performance and stuff. And so he had like, kind of like this like, satirical like humorful of like, way of writing about these situations that were like, humorful but, but healing and painful. And I was mainly interested in from and Amaud Jamal's use of like, Jim Crow caricatures. And being in my civil rights class, I was exposed to like a lot of those Jim Crow like advertisements that I had never seen before. Kind of like Uncle Ben Aunt Jemima, there's like a lot of like weird like how they treated kids back then continuing to this day but like they'd be like all these weird like guy like fishing with a black baby for alligators you know, like just really kind of messed up stuff. And so I started like painting the art I'd already been painting like all these like horses that I had during different like states like moods, they felt like either like klans members. I initially started making this shape, because I thought it was like symbolized as like this kind of like this hero cowboy figure that could like protect me from the challenges that face in my world and kind of this imaginative kind of like superhero figure, but then it kind of when I got into grad school, it got kind of darker, especially taking the civil rights class and became like more of like this. This kind of like sundown like klans kind of chasing out like chasing out the people of color and like all this kind of like embedded racially-charged imagery and, and then like a lot of lot of like references With like, texts, and I was also thinking about like color as, as like a signifier symbolizing different things. And just like also thinking about, like how there's even, like, weird class divide amongst people of color, like my dad telling me, like, growing up in the south and being like, a darker skinned black person, like, he wasn't allowed to hang out with certain black people that were, like, considered high yellow, or like, high class. And so I think just thinking about the different aspects of, of like, race and within, like, the black community and with within intersectional communities, and people's understanding of that, and like trying to, like, break those barriers down was how I'd like kind of like, summarize, my intention in that show and, and wanting people to, like, you know, reflect about our history, because I feel like, people are always so fast to say that, like America is the greatest country but no one's ever like, like, people do critique America all the time. But I feel like those same people are fast to say Americans the best ever aren't like also looking, giving an honest look, and like the dark histories of America and also the contemporary issues in America that are very dark, just thinking of like issues like Detroit's, or water crisis, you know, or like, different, different terrible things that have happened in the last 30 years. So that was, those were like, my goals for that show. And, but I did feel like after talking to my committee, and like, installing it, and having to, like, speak about it so much. It was, it was very taxing for me emotionally. And I was like, I need, like, some distance, and I just need to make, like, artwork that is purely just visual. And it might allude to some like, you know, kind of human condition or issue. But I was like, I need to, like, get some breathing room from this race stuff. Because it was like, it was just, it was very emotional for me. And I thought it was, I thought it would be, it was like mixed feelings. It was like healing, but it's also very emotional. And, yeah, I think I think just like, as like, a macho dude who grew up skateboarding, sometimes those emotions get a little too, for too real for me to like, push it down. But at the same time, I want to be like, a balanced individual, with like, regulating my emotions, in a healthy way. So like, I feel like it's good to explore these things, but it's like, gotta take it with like doses, like not overwhelm yourself. Because you can, just like it can really, like, kind of beat you down. And the world's already dark enough, you know, you can be, like, more depressed about everything. I think that can definitely, like, happen with this type of research. Like I know Amuad Jamal Johnson was, had to, had to do his research for us, but he had to read and see and look at a lot of just kind of disgusting grotesque images. From like, the late 1800s of like, black people like getting hung and like, pretty much like the town like having a parade for it, you know, like, just like really grotesque things. Like, you have to have, like, a strong stomach to even, like, be able to, like handle some of this some of the issues that have happened in America. I think the main, my main, my biggest frustration is, like, beyond like them whitewashing it in our, in our textbooks, it's like, they, they, they don't want even us to know about it, it seems like so like, that's another reason where like, I get angry, but I don't want to be like, you know, an angry person about it. And I just, I want to, like, heal myself. And then also like, heal with everyone, you know, it's like, I'm not trying to like blame people for, for, or keep people responsible, like, have some type of responsibility for like, the past history or like, but I would like them to acknowledge the reality of it and to know that it's a real thing. So they can better understand what we're currently dealing with. But beyond that, it's like it's, I mainly just want to make beautiful pictures. So it's like, I, as long as I continue to make beautiful images that interest me, then I'll be happy to like, I think the whole, that whole show for me the MA show. It was, it was a great platform for me to explore, like, really, really exploring this idea of race and identity as my art practice. And, you know, I like as I was saying in the beginning, like, I don't really know where it's gonna go, or if I'm gonna continue exploring it, but I, I know, like, explicitly or implicitly, it's gonna be, it's gonna be in my work. And I just don't know how it's gonna manifest at this time. But I think I, I needed, I needed to have that show. So I could, I could, I could know what it felt like. And so I have, like,a better idea kind of navigated, like how far I want to go, how far I want to push it from my MFA show. What kind of kind of steering the conversation in a way where I want it rather be it being steered in a comfortable way of like, what I feel responsible to talk about, or what I think people should understand or know, you know. So that's kind of like where I'm at.

Sophia Abrams 1:06:05 That's really interesting how you kind of talk about, but like, kind of putting it all out there with your MA show. And then like, after you're done, you're kind of just like, resonating with that and trying to understand like, how much you can handle, what's your limit, and then using that, kind of to guide you like, in the future with your art in terms of like, what you can do and what you want to explore. So I'm kind of curious to know, like, so like, that show us in February, like right before lockdown. So then, what did I guess? Kind of like, what did the end of the? or What did the rest of that semester look like for you? Um, and.

Taj Matumbi 1:06:45 I'm glad you asked. Yeah, so my show ,my show, like, was over, like, February, like, I think like 16th or something. And then, so this was like, right around when like COVID was starting, like, I think there's some COVID happening like in, like, the Northwest Pacific, like there's a few people in Washington or something. And I started immediately because of my anxiousness, started making more work. And I was trying to think about, like, kind of picking up, picking up the reins. And I was like, okay, so like, what am I thinking about for like, this next show, like I was, like, I want to deal with issues around like, otherness, camouflage, blending in, isolation. Because I know my BFA show was, like, a lot about isolation because I, even though, like, I didn't feel as free to, to explore these ideas in such a kind of letting out the reins. in undergrad I was still thinking about, like isolation and feeling othered because I was in these spaces where I felt that way. No, I didn't feel comfortable talking about it, or am, I didn't talk about it, I could talk about it. So I was I was I was making work after my MA show, and was still dealing with like this kind of cowboy, silhouette shape, and I was thinking about how I could use texts from different sources, and then put an image over it and kind of create these like create these situations where I create a situation where there's a myth, and then there's like a reality and kind of like, breaking them. And like, basically creating like a new perspective by putting juxtaposing these two kind of either complimentary or contradictory like elements and and so like, I guess like an example of that was like I made like, I only made like a couple of these pieces because I right afterwards I went out to Utah and then there's like the whole lockdown. So I made like a couple of these pieces, and they're just like ripped ripped out of paper and glue them on it like this fabric material I found and I painted like this text I found from a skateboarding music video or skateboarding video and like a random civilian was like I hope you guys like it like it was like kind of this like text where the use was like telling them like I hope you guys die like we're recording sound like kind of random situation. And then I had, like, this cowboy shape. And I guess I was just, like, thinking about, like, this idea of like, how I could explore the same things that I was interested in my show but just in different situations. And I, cuz, because of the semester fell flat and everyone had to, like, you know shelter in place, these ideas kind of like fizzled, fizzled out and I had to, because I, in March, I went out to Utah for spring break to visit my girlfriend. And then I ended up staying there for like two and a half months because of quarantine. And I wasn't working very much, from there. It's kind of like I was still in screenprinting class with Faisal. So we were like, worked on, like, a book project. And we made a book, the class called Amidst COVID. That was really fun. And I wrote a dossier about some of these things I'm interested in about like camouflage and isolation, otherness. And we just, like, made some drawings and submitted some images for the site project. And then like, the semester was over, and came back to Madison in May and started working at a hardware shop. Then, from there, just working at the hardware shop, taking care of my cat. And then there's like, all this stuff kind of broke out. I think Ahmaud Arbery died before George Floyd. But then George Floyd died and like, all these protests started happening. And I started seeing all this art pop up on State Street, and I saw like all this backlash happening, because it was like all white artists. And then I applied for it. Now like, Oh, you there's no room like next year, there'll be more opportunities. And then they're like, the next day, they're like, actually, we need you like, we really need more people of color. I was like, "Sure, I'll do something." And I, at this time, getting back to Madison, I'd be working in my apartment on paper, making images. And this is what I was like, kind of like, trying to just like, reflect and process the MA show still. And so that's, that's the, that's what led to the work I made for the Overture Center. And that, that, that that piece, I called it "Boxcar Busts," and it, I literally made the painting, like two days before, like, way smaller, and then I increased the scale. And it felt really awkward. For me, I think I talked about a little bit on the panel, because like, I was like, I wish I could just like install my MA show because it would be, like, a lot more topical for like, what's specifically going on. It's like, you can't, like, plan for like, things like this. And, but I did feel like was like "Damn, I should like I definitely should like put like blacklivesmatter in there or something or like." But I just, like, I had a hard time grappling with that whole experience, it happened really fast. And I didn't have, like, a lot of time to like prep or think about my intention. And I just kind of like how to, like, put together this project, like, one day at a time. But it was still a really awesome opportunity. And I've never painted in public like that before, but it was, um, was really nice dealing with or working with Beth and Mary Rose from the Overture. They were really sweet. They helped everyone get all the supplies they needed and all the, all the paints and brushes and they were like really, really on top of it. They, like, didn't sleep for, like, I don't know, probably like a month. And thinking about that piece like it feels more like some type of, like, artwork you'd see like I don't know, like in, like, a Vans, Vans outlet mall or something or like some type of weird like skateboarding like kind of commercial street art type of crap. And I liked how it came out and I was, I was trying to think of like unity and like and like peace and but I think that I could have I could have had more depth and it could have been more topical to specifically what I think I should have just gotten over some of the mental stuff that I was like I was in my head about it too much. And having a lot of doubt about it my, unsure around, like, how I felt, not even like how I felt, but like how I, how I should articulate myself around this situation. And how I could do anything. I remember around the same time the mural went up I was, this was around the same time and people were, like, posting like a black square on Instagram. And everyone was like donating money to get people out of jail and stuff. And so I donated, like, some art. I was like, I was like if you match, if you match, match this artwork or if you, like, pay like 25 bucks to a donation I'll give you this artwork, you know? So I guess why smart virtual like a random person in Madison that I met on Instagram and asked my dad about it, I was like dude, was that like, was that waste like, I feel like I need to be like doing something like I need to be like on the front line, like, I feel like that was a lot of like 2019. And leading into 2020. I was like, shit, like, I'm just in my studio, like, painting pretty colors and like, there's people out there, like, hurting, and the country is doing terribly. So it's like, trying to, like, rationalize these two dualities of like, the world and which I was living in. And justifying it to myself was, like, really hard because it's like, it's like, like I was saying before, it's like, I was afforded a lot of privilege to go to grad school, got an undergrad to study art. Just even, like, amongst, like, my family, and I'd, like, the first person in my family to graduate high school. And so like, I just felt like, I felt kind of guilty, I guess, for my place of privilege. And then like, but also like, I felt like definitely, like more entitled than like some, like, white girl painting flowers on the side of State Street, like, I don't know. So I just reflected on that, that piece, I think I wish I would have had more time to really think about the intention and kind of thinking about how that piece would sit in that space. More than just like an art piece, but, like as, as a reflection of the community in an honest way. And not just sound, like, kind of like neoliberal, like, soda of sopa like, I'm just gonna, like, make this place gentrified with cool, pretty things, you know. And, and I think there could be both, you know, you can have beautiful, visually stimulating art that also, like, has, you know, topical issues that deals with, like, meaningful content. And I just think that like this, this imagery that I'm working on in my apartment was so fresh and new that I didn't really, I was like, I was like, I'm just trying to work to like, not go crazy, and I don't really want to think about like, all the all the intentions and responsibility that we that, like were asked about during grad school, I just was like, I just want to make work. And I'm really looking forward to being out of grad school where I could just like, make work and talk about it. However, I'd like to talk about it, and not have to feel like I'm getting like, gonna be like tested on it or, like challenged on it. where it's like, also, like, it's totally like, okay to like, not know exactly what's going on in a specific piece or a specific time with your artwork. And so like, also just like reminding myself that like it's okay to, like, not know exactly how it fits in, or know all the answers to like, why or what I'm making. But it's just like, cuz this situation is so real. And so, like, it was happening so fast. I felt, like, a sense of pressure where like, I should know those questions and like, I should have all those questions and think, be thinking about all these, these serious issues. Just out of, out of respect for the people that were, were lost. And out of respect to the people that are continuing to deal with these struggles, you know, like I've had, I've had, you know, like, I used to skateboard and do graffiti, I've had interactions with police, but like, I've never ever really had like a violent interaction with the police and I'm very privileged, but I am terrified of the police whenever they drive past me. And I am terrified I've had to break into my house, even if it's my house, and I'm worried if the cops are gonna come like, you know, but uh, it's, it's a weird, it's a weird thing to navigate. And I, I my main goal for like, post-graduation is like to be able to take up a role where I could, I could I can teach the youth of any given community where I'm at, teach them about art, how to make art, I would prefer it'd be a community of color. But at this point, I will take whatever I can get, I just need to start applying to jobs. But I kind of went off to the side tangent started stressing out about life.

Sophia Abrams 1:19:23 No, you're good. You're good. I guess from that, I'm curious to know, like, how, like, it's interesting, almost like look back at like that span of time from your MA show. To then like the summer and like the mural on kind of how, like, you really had to confront more themes from your MA show, while you're trying to kind of take a step back and like still trying to navigate that. So what was this past semester like for you? And now like also, like, what has it been like, preparing for your MFA show as well?

Taj Matumbi 1:19:57 So this last semester, we were locked out of our studios until like August, which really sucked, I think it was like mid-August or something. And so that was that was really annoying to not be able to get in, like, into my studio, but I think during like COVID and like that time period, like May like, end of the summer, I really got down like working at my house and making work and situations that weren't like, when I didn't have like a studio space afforded to me. So I felt like I was able to get through ideas and make work that can, can like, push push me along to that will, like, inevitably like lead to my MFA show. My, right now, like I was saying before, I've been making, like tons of works on paper. And so, like, I have all these works on paper, that I plan to just blow up with a projector and make them into larger scale paintings. And I'm, I still have kind of taken away like, it's, it's, there's definitely like, it's gonna be less explicitly about like, kind of race but it's gonna, it's definitely going to be in there like I have like all these like kind of like masked figures, and different kind of just like kind of my own vernacular that I've developed over over the years. And I kind of just want to make kind of just like a weird like, allegory, like adventure story about like, it's, it's kind of like an autobiographical fantasy thing, I guess. And I want it to be less, less grounded and and like specific histories, but, like, kind of just like overall, like, human condition. And this semester, I took screen printing with Faisal, and I also was working with curator MMOCA. And so they had been advising me a lot. It's been a weird semester because of COVID honestly. But I feel, like, I was, I worked a lot with Faisal and I made some, like, kind of pushed my work in a different direction and a different medium and screen printing. And kind of been, like, studying, like, compositions. And from stills of movies that I've been, like, watched as a kid. And like, just kind of like I feel like this semester has been like a lot more like planning, like prep, where like my 2019, like fall semester was like, I was just throwing stuff to the wall hoping it would stick. And then it wasn't till, like, the very end it kind of started to like, come together, but like now it's like, I still don't even know what I'm doing. It's like I'm just like, hoping that it's gonna, like come together. Because I have to do, like, all this, like, technical stuff, like build structures that have to like make the paintings and like to figure out, if it's gonna like, what it's gonna look like and what it's gonna mean. But I don't know, the way I work normally is like I make the work and then I, like, kind of reflect and write about it. I will write periodically while I'm making the work as well. But usually, like, it's kind of like an art, art practice thing where it's like you, you make the work and then the work kind of informs you what it's about. There are like obviously like conceptual artists or minimal artists that work in their head to kind of do all that busy work initially and then make the piece but that's not how I made work in undergrad and that's not really how I currently make work but I think to save myself headache, I think the more intention and kind of like doing the like the like busy work in the in the forefront is like better because it just saves you like neckache rather than like waiting until like the last minute scrambling. But yeah, I, I had, like, a clear idea of what I wanted the show to be about when I was applying to the Chazen prize and the art lit lab. But now that I didn't get those spaces. I'm like, I'm like less concerned about like trying to stick to that proposal thesis, you know, that show I proposed was going to be about kind of like how specifically marginalized communities or communities of color, have not been able to, to socially distance because social distancing is like a privilege to have or be able to like, do, depending on what job you have or where you live or where you're living, or who you live with. And so I was kind of like in my little insular, like art studio places like privileged thinking about, like, all these people that weren't able to have, like, a safe place or have security, like or have like money. And so like thinking about, like, these issues that were already there in the first place, but how COVID kind of unveiled those issues, and kind of revealed some of those issues. And I think a lot of that also had, like, that was like kind of a nutshell, 2020, like COVID happens. And then like, all this civil unrest, like stuff that we haven't seen literally like since like, the '60s. So it's like, I thought that was very interesting, as an avenue to explore. But I don't know, like, as I make more work, the work is constantly shifting, and it's like, really hard to pinpoint. Cuz, like, I want to stay true to myself. And then also, it's like, sometimes you gotta, like, kind of, like, close the line and go, alright, we're done here. Like, this is it, like chill out. I think similar with the show, it's like, I think a lot of the times, like, especially if you're younger, younger artists, or newer artists, like I think you want, like, everything to like, be in the art show. It's like, it's like, you're, it's like a 10 person. It's like a one person show, but, like, it looks like it's 10 people's artworks. It's like your retrospective or something, you know, but you're like 20 talking to me is retrospective MA Show. But um, yeah, it's, like, also like an undergrad like telling my professor she had like an art project. She was like, she's like, "Alright, so what you want to do?" I was like, "Well, I want to do, like, a self-portrait. I also want to deal with like, civil rights and also want to deal with like the environment, which is like alright, Taj, like pick like one thing, like, it's like, super scatterbrained. But just, like, kind of funneling all the ideas into like, some good gold hopefully. Come March 12th. When I started installing.

SOPHIA ABRAMS 1:27:08 My gosh, that's coming up.

Taj Matumbi 1:27:11 Yeah, no, I'm, I am a wild artist. I have, I have most I would say like, I'm a third. I'm like, two thirds of the way done. Yeah.

Sophia Abrams 1:27:24 Well, I guess I have two more questions left, and you kind of touched on this already in terms of like, post-Madison, in terms of you want to teach youth somewhere, or like move to New York, but I guess, I'm just gonna ask. So like, just like, what do you hope to do post-UW?

Taj Matumbi 1:27:45 Yeah, so that's another thing that navigating right now is like, I need to start applying for jobs. And so I'm going to be applying to adjunct positions, I'm gonna try to split my time between adjunct teaching, teaching painting and drawing. And I'm going to try to finagle my way into teaching K through 12 art either through, like, like, private or charter schools, because I don't have an Art Ed degree, you know. And if I can't do it, that way, I might try to create like a, like a volunteer group or some sort of like grassroots like art educational program for kids to kind of supplement, because you can't get by just like adjunting so either have to have like, multiple adjuncting positions, or like, do a little bit of like, like primary education. That's like that was my plan. Hopefully, I don't have to, like, get like, I guess like a retail or like, like a boring day job. And, like, another, another possibility I guess with that I'm interested in pursuing is starting like a collage club. Similar to a Little Picasso's, where you're, like, teaching kids I think I want to, if it became successful to include, increase, increase it to adults as well, but it's creating, like I really what my practice is. Like, I have a huge like, kind of like a collage, practice and my, my studio practice. And so I think it'd be really fun to start like a collage program. I know there's one there's one in England and in London, and they get people to make art together like, weekly, just seems like a really fun way to make art. Get, like, acquainted with the community and, you know, sharing the knowledge. It's, I really, I really like, I really like making art with groups of people. And seeing, like, how people think and like different ways that we make things, especially, I really like, like untaught artists, and people that are unfamiliar with art, I think it's a lot of fun. Because they don't really have as many expectations or there's kind of just like, free rein. And in terms of, like, location, I have like a, you know, a few friends, different cities and family members, a lot of different cities in America. I did originally want to go to Europe after graduating grad school, but COVID. So that's probably gonna have to go to the back burner for a while. But yeah, my plan right now is just to like, apply to like 50, adjuncting positions or more. And then like, kind of just like figuring out some type of like, second source of income that's geared towards more of like community practice.

Sophia Abrams 1:31:14 And then my last question for you. So like, we've covered a lot of themes, but are there any topics that we didn't cover that you think are worthwhile for this oral history interview?

Taj Matumbi 1:31:27 Yeah, I can't think of anything right now. I feel like it's like, talking for like, an hour and a half, like, blacked out everything I just said, but um, yeah. I guess like, if anyone's listening to, listening to this in the future, just like some advice I would give, would be to definitely apply only to fully-funded programs. Definitely trust the process. Definitely make as many connections with peers and mentors, because that's like, the only resource you're gonna have after you graduate. And also, I would like to just finish with saying, if you know anyone in the art department at UW or person that's interested in art, they don't have to be a UW student that wants to go on this path and would like any advice, I would like to try to, try to find a mentee. That's something that I wanted to accomplish this, the three years and I was not able to find one. So yeah, if you know, anyone, I have, I have a little bit of advice about this path and this trajectory. Obviously, not like an expert, but I'd love to just share my knowledge with anyone that is interested or has questions about it, you know.

Sophia Abrams 1:32:55 Well, thank you so much for letting me interview you for this past hour and a half. I really enjoyed hearing about your experience. And I think that listeners will also enjoy hearing about your experience and kind of learning about what it meant or what it means to be an artist at this time.

Taj Matumbi 1:33:13 Cool. Well, thank you for the invitation. And it's been an honor and a privilege. I'm curious to hear all the other interviews when you're done. Seems like a really big exciting project to accomplish. Cheers. Yeah, let me know. If there's any, anything else we need to cover or just as updates with editing or such.