Interview with John McCormick

SEQ CHAPTER \h \r 1UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1919

MCCORMICK, JOHN

MCCORMICK, JOHN (1955-)

Interviewed: 2019

Interviewer: Faith Hoffmeyer

Index by: Sophie Clark

Transcribed by: Teresa Bergen

Length: 1 hour, 16 minutes

First Interview Session (2019): Digital File

00:00:00

FH: Okay. I'm just going to adjust the volume quickly.

JM: All right.

FH: So, this is a phone interview. And my name is Faith Hoffman. I'm calling from Steenbock Library. The date is September 27, 2019. And can you please state and spell your first and last name for an audio check?

JM: Sure. My name is John McCormick. J-o-h-n M-c-C-o-r-m-i-c-k.

FH: Great. So, can you start with just giving a brief description of your early life?

JM: Well, let's see. My early life. I grew up in a community about 70 miles north of Madison, near Wisconsin Dells, called Mauston, Wisconsin, in Juneau County, the county seat of Mauston. I was born in a hospital that probably was 00:01:00built in the early '20s. And I think my father was born in that hospital right after it was built in the 1950s, 1955, I was born in that hospital. And since then, during the late '60s, they built a hospital that replaced that hospital. Still had the same name. And then in the late 1970s, early 1980s, they built another hospital that became more of a medical center and more inclusive. I went to a small town, we had a Catholic high school for during the 1950s and halfway through the 1960s. By the time I was ready to go to high school, that Catholic 00:02:00high school had closed. However, but I have an older brother that when he was ready for first grade, his first grade class had 63, his class at the Catholic grade school, my parents thought that was too many. And they were fearing that my class would be just as large. So I started out I went to a public school, elementary school, a block away from where we lived for first grade. And then in second grade I started going to the Catholic grade school through eighth grade. Then I went to the public high school for freshman through senior year.

And then I, when I was born, I was born with a cleft lip. And even though I 00:03:00didn't have a cleft palate, I have a very high palate. And I had a very significant speech impediment. So several vowels I had a hard time saying. Some consonants I couldn't say at all. And other consonants were a struggle. I had speech and hearing, well, they had to test my hearing, because they thought maybe the hearing as much as speech. Turned out the hearing was fine. But at the speech and hearing center at the University of Wisconsin, Madison campus. Where I also had my first cleft lip repair. I got my second cleft lip repair after my growth spurt in my early teenage years. I believe it was called Mount Sinai Hospital in Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Minnesota, when I was fifteen. And did have 00:04:00speech therapy when I was age five and age six at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, Speech and Hearing Clinic. I also had speech therapy when I was in junior high school at one of the local counseling centers in Mauston, Wisconsin. And my first year at University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire, I had speech therapy again at that time as well, just to kind of help to pump things up a little bit.

And then when I started at University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire, I was interested in healthcare profession because I was interested in sciences and math. And I started off as pre-pharmacy. And as I was taught by people, my interest was direct patient care. And I noticed even at that time, when I started off, that was in the early '70s at UW Eau Claire. Even then, the only way they had a lot 00:05:00of direct patient care was only to fill a prescription, give brief instructions as the person picked up the prescription at the community pharmacy. I really wanted more direct patient care.

I started listening to some of the ones that were in pre-nursing at University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire, their school of nursing. And I switched over. I made a decision to switch over towards the end of my sophomore year. And I was truly pre-nursing for my junior year. Because in fact the UW Eau Claire School of Nursing was a little bit smaller and just like all the requirements were, and 00:06:00the GPA was rather significant. I switched over to UW Milwaukee for my fourth year in college with pre-nursing. And the courses that the UW Milwaukee School of Nursing was encouraging you to take before you applied to the clinical portion of the program, at that time I had already done some testing at UW Madison for further career planning. And also I did an interview at Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, I want to say probably was, I want to say it was, I don't think, I think I did the testing in the summer of 1975 and I did the interview the summer of 1976. I was accepted into they provided me a slot 00:07:00for the class of 1979, starting in August of 1977. That I knew that I would be coming back before I started my year at UW Milwaukee. But then I still tried to apply to U of Milwaukee's program halfway through when I was at the fourth year of college to start in the fall. And then they [unclear] I did not get accepted there, but I knew I was already accepted into Madison General Hospital School of Nursing program. I decided at that time to take that route.

And during the time that I was there at Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, there were several people that had to take a leave of absence. There was probably around ten to twelve in our class for various reasons during our time at Madison General Hospital School of Nursing. And I took a leave of 00:08:00absence towards the end of my first year, so it was fall of 1977 to spring of 1978, because my mother died in May of 1978 after about six months of hospitalization for [unclear] disease that later was, at that time was more of a research diagnosis Crohn's Disease. But since then it has become a more acceptable diagnosis, a treatment diagnosis. So I took a leave of absence there, which meant I missed one of the rotations at that time. I continued with my, we all continued with the class in the fall of 1978. And it was starting up, in a sense we were in the second year in the program. And all of us with our colleagues that did not have the leave of absence, we all participated in the 00:09:00graduation activities in June 1979. But then the twelve of us went back. I think two of them had missed a four-week rotation course. And the other ten or eight had missed an eight-week rotation course. I missed OB. So we all went into the course that we missed. I completed that and got a program between late August of 1979 to mid-October 1979. My graduation date is actually on the diploma from Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, it says October 19, 1979, [unclear] graduate. And then I knew I was already hired to start as a graduate nurse at Columbia Hospital in November 1979, the Monday after Thanksgiving Day weekend 00:10:00that year. And I was already enrolled to continue on for my Bachelor of Science degree in nursing at UW Milwaukee starting in 1980. So then going, [unclear] prerequisites during the two-year absence that they would have added. I thought there was going to be more than like one course. It was one course that they added. So I did that one as well. So that pretty much brings up, I almost forgot about the speech impediment.

10:37

FH: Oh, yeah. Sorry. To revert back to sort of your earlier life, you mentioned that you had an interest in direct patient care.

JM: Yes.

FH: Did anything in your background guide you towards a nursing education?

JM: Did anything in my background guide me towards nursing education? I tend to 00:11:00be more hands-on with most projects, activities that I do. And I think that probably was the, in terms of initially just being someone that was a helper for those that actually did the activity more for a job, more of in a home situation, I would help out more like just with family. With family. And I think that's probably what guided the interest with direct patient care with nursing.

FH: Sure. Was nursing a popular career choice in your community?

JM: In my community, I'm trying to think. As I'm finding out now, well, for me? Probably not. For me, probably not. However, one of the people that was in my class there at, the class of 1979 at Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, she attended the same high school that I did, but she was one year behind me in school. So when I was a sophomore, she was a freshman at that high school. Same thing, when I was a junior, she was a sophomore. When I was a senior, she was a junior. She moved toward nursing. There's at least two people, two women that 00:13:00were in my high school graduating class that I know became nurses. And I think, I know one went through a program in the La Crosse area. And I forget if the other one went through a program. But again, this was a high school that the four years, that had at that time, there were around, between 600 and 650 people. Six hundred to 650 students in the four years of high school, freshman class through senior class. And my senior class had 123. And even with that, there was at least three of us that had an inkling toward nursing at that time. So, which I believe probably, that may not have been the high water mark, but it 00:14:00probably was some business or marketing, probably, was higher. But I think most of them probably graded out to, I don't think anything had double digits.

FH: Okay. So what were some of your perceptions of nursing school prior to attending?

JM: Perceptions of nursing school prior to attending?

FH: Yes.

JM: Prior to attending, I knew that there was an emphasis on the applied sciences. And also on the social sciences, like psychology or sociology. I do 00:15:00know that. But also for the diploma program, besides having, it was in the classroom with theory, I'd been there talking with people, I was informed that in the diploma program you had a well-grounded clinical part of the program that during your time at school you would also be in the hospital, in the healthcare setting working as a, again, I believe we were at Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, it was student nurse that work on, we worked as a student nurse with the nurses that were working in the setting that we were assigned to. 00:16:00Besides the classroom work. And I had some idea that that would be it, whereas UW Milwaukee School of Nursing, or UW Eau Claire, School of Nursing, their emphasis was a little bit heavy on the classroom. But even at that time, went to UW Milwaukee School of Nursing, there was still some pretty substantial, being a nursing student in a clinical setting, working alongside nurses that were in that setting.

FH: So when you arrived to Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, what were your impressions of Madison?

16:55

JM: Of Madison?

FH: Yes.

JM: My impression of Madison was, initially I think I took more of a, it was, at 00:17:00that time there was more of a [unclear] I was going from the cure perspective to the care perspective. And also there's, oh, what was the other thing? That's somewhat related to that as well. Oh, I did realize that there's a, when I first arrived I was starting to develop the sense that there's as much art to medicine as science to medicine. Whereas initially I thought the predominance would be 00:18:00science, I suddenly realized maybe I gave short shrift to the art of medicine and not the science of medicine. It probably still favored the science, because you're still looking at as during my career, as we were starting to approach more things from an evidence-based practice. And that certainly is from a scientific basis. And even then when I first started at Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, the science still favored, was still the majority. But the art of medicine had started to have a little bit more of a focus as well.

FH: So how was your class?

JM: How large was my class? Now I have to get it right. I believe the class of 00:19:00Madison General Hospital School of Nursing was the smaller of the two classes between UW Milwaukee and Madison General Hospital. I think the class at Madison General Hospital School of Nursing probably was somewhere between 85 to 100.

FH: Okay.

JM: Yeah. [unclear]

FH: And did you live in the dorms?

JM: I did live in the dorms, yes.

FH: Can you describe a little bit about that experience?

JM: The one thing when I was there, in terms of coming, even having a cell phone available to where you could reach and touch base with someone verbally on the phone, much less texting on the phone, was not available. However even with that, to make a phone call, to ask the question of one of my classmates, because 00:20:00I lived in the dorms, a lot of times a lot of us would be taking breaks down in the lounge area on the first floor. And I would just walk down there, in fact, saw someone down there and I had a question. I thought well, maybe this person can help me with the question. Or to be able to, to have a discussion about a subject more immediate and right away, rather than having to wait till they're available on the phone. So I found that, with that, it was, I think it bonded some of the classmates that did stay in the dorms. Because we could, besides 00:21:00during the class time or during clinical time, when it was in the evening, if we were all in the dorms somewhere, we could all talk about subject after class. Whereas some other classmates that did not live in the dorms, we couldn't, sometimes, the only time we could really ask them was when we were either having clinical with them or during the classroom, during a break in the classroom.

FH: So what were some of the social or recreational activities that you and your friends were engaged in?

21:46

JM: I think at that time, there were a few dances that we went to over at the Wisconsin campus, over along Regent Street. But if there was some band playing, 00:22:00I know we did that. And then also, some of the places that had a movie theater, if there was a movie showing on the square of Madison or on State Street of Madison, over on University Avenue, we seemed to do that as well.

FH: Great. And what about the food in your dorms, or that you'd eat at the hospital?

JM: The food in the dorms, well, again, like everything, it was cafeteria food. So it's limited there. And I think there was not as much choices then in terms of, there were plenty of choices if we wanted to eat greens, but there were not as many vegetable choices then as there are now, and certainly without having cheese sauces put on much of the stuff or having things, I don't think there was 00:23:00a whole lot of deep fried, because it was more baked. Like baked chicken, not fried chicken. That's one thing I noticed right away. And that was good. Of course, because the fact that I'm someone, I don't favor a lot of pork products. But I do favor chicken over beef. And the seafood is somewhere between, between the beef and the pork. So it's a little bit less than chicken, but not so down the line that it's, it's closer to chicken than to either pork or to beef.

FH: Mm hmm. So now moving on toward your education, can you describe some of the lab skill education that you were engaged in?

JM: Some of the what?

FH: The lab skill education.

JM: The lab skill? One of the biggest lab skills, because I just remember it vividly from when I was at the ER rotation, I think there was a little bit of classroom, but it was very minimum. So much of it was in the clinical setting and in the ER at Madison General Hospital. But I know wasn't the classroom experiences. So I know we had enough of it, was one of the prerequisites for passing the ER course was certifying in CPR that time. And the ER instructor on 00:25:00faculty taking us through, taking us through the science and theory behind CPR, and then doing the psychomotor skills. And then I think we did it on like a Thursday or Friday and a day on weekend beginning next week, or next week we were expected to test out. And that was one time that I was really glad that the dorms, because I could for the entire weekend if I was not, I was so [unclear] I could go down to the classroom where the mannequins were and practice on the mannequins. So to get the sequence down.

And when we took our pharmacology course, I don't know if we were the first 00:26:00class that had someone that could teach us pharmacology that was not a nurse. What he was, was a doctoral student in pharmacology at Wisconsin. I think he was maybe in his last year. Last year or last two years at Wisconsin. And he taught the first semester between August of 1977 to December of 1977, he taught a pharmacology course. And it was very heavy into the science of the chemical 00:27:00structures sometimes that are found in the medicine, but where some of the ingredients may be found in the natural world, or where is that found synthetically in the lab. And then not only how it works in a lab setting, but how it works in the body. Both a healthy body and the body, and the reason why it's being taken by the, has the illness that is supposed to be treated. So those are the two areas I do remember specifically regarding the class.

FH: What were your class sizes like?

27:48

JM: I think once we broke into the, for the clinical rotations, I think we 00:28:00usually had about 20 in the rotation, but ten would be at one site and ten would be at another site. And the only time we saw them, and then the other 80 that were in our class, 70, 80 that were in our class, the only time we saw them was maybe for the one class that we had that was not a clinical but was an instructor that we're all in the large lecture hall. But for a lot of times, even when we had twenty in rotation, and we're split in half, the ten of us we saw all the time because we're in the same half of the rotation, so we saw them all the time. It was much more a classroom. It was almost like sitting around a 00:29:00large, having four tables forming a square. And unless there was going to be a whole lot of theory and then we had to rearrange the tables a little bit so we could look at the overhead at that time. But it was more of a discussion during that part of the classroom experience in the clinical setting. And like saying [unclear] it was much more of the classroom than the lecture hall.

FH: Do you remember any faculty who played an important role in your education?

JM: I'm trying to remember the first person, there was a, one of the faculty 00:30:00members, I remember, was a Mary Heckler. She, the first clinical that was after primary I called it bedmaking, was also the early clinical, the first clinical, starting in January of 1978. She played a real connective role. I think her emphasis was more on neurology nursing. So she had me on the sixth floor offering, having us, providing for information on why medications should be 00:31:00given for a specific reason besides what its stated use is, what it's actually doing and what's the outcome for giving this medication, what happens, what you want to see happen. And I just remember the pre-clinical and post-clinical conferences. But one of the other, her first name, when I first was at the school, her first name was Roberta. But I think she changed it to Bobbie during the second year of school. I know there was a Gloria, but that was during the [unclear] I was in the clinical the first, the second, I think I want to say it 00:32:00was the second clinical of spring of 1978. And it was a med-surg clinical. And the that was when my mother died and that's one person that I had to touch base with her, let her know what happened. And she helped me negotiate with the administrators as far as attending to the leave of absence at that time.

When I came back, I started out with a, I went back into that particular clinical, the med-surgical clinical. It was with a different, for a class. It was a [unclear] of the classmates. And I wish I could remember the faculty, the name of the faculty person. Because she probably helped, she was good at 00:33:00science, like both Mary and Gloria were. But she also, she was also good at the art. And she helped me to understand where that come, and when that can be used and applied, and when you need to use, to be laser-focused on the science. But for some reason I can't, I want to say Jean. But as soon as I say Jean, it will probably wind up being Judy. So I'm not going to go there. I do remember she was definitely a good influence as well.

FH: And what are some of the ways that the arts can be applicable in that setting?

33:53

JM: Oh, what's that?

FH: What are some of the ways that she taught you that the arts can be applicable in that setting?

JM: The art of nursing?

FH: Mm hmm.

JM: Like I say, the art of medicine as much as remembering in terms of language skills. You want to show your knowledge, that you're knowledgeable about what you're talking about when you're talking to a patient, healthcare consumer, that's receiving treatment. You want to show that you're knowledgeable of the subject matter. You don't want to talk down to them. But you want to use a vocabulary that is most understandable for them so they don't have to feel like oh, nod when they don't really understand, but they nod as if they do. And you're left with the impression that they understand completely. So it was a mix of finding the, of finding the correct cadence and the correct words that 00:35:00accurately describe the treatment activity without putting undue burden on them to ask the question or to not ask the question because they don't want to come off as I don't understand. Or they may have more knowledge and say you can actually, if you want to you can actually share this with me as well, because I think I can understand this part of it. So I found out that for the most part, I'm not someone who will use a five-cent word. But I'm also, if a hundred-dollar word may not be necessary to use and I'm thinking about using that, I would choose to use maybe a ten-dollar word instead. Somewhere in the middle that it 00:36:00meets, everyone can be comfortable with and not feel like they're being talked down to, or not feel like they don't understand. So, yeah. So in terms of vocabulary and language skills, that's probably where she helped me the most regarding the art of medicine.

FH: I see. So were there any particularly challenging aspects of your education that you'd like to talk about?

JM: Challenging aspects of--before I talk about that, there's one other faculty member that I thought was also very good. She was the faculty member that, there was a four-week ER rotation for one faculty member like I described earlier. Well the other half of that eight-week period was the four-week OR rotation. And 00:37:00apparently I believe the faculty member there, her first name was Jean. And apparently she had been at Madison General Hospital School of Nursing for quite some time, because people I think in the, definitely in the mid-'60s recall her. Of course people that were closer to the time, which I found out later, the mid-'70s, before I got there, that they recall her. And then of course my class. And the class that probably followed me. So she probably was there until 1982. Or, yeah, until the last graduating class graduated in 1982. She was someone that I found, just through her mannerisms, easy to understand. That's the way I 00:38:00could put it. And the question that, oh, anything challenging?

FH: Yes.

38:13

JM: I'm going to come back to the, we always had a pre-clinical, it's usually very short, because you had to be all done with the nurses that were working in the health setting, starting to work alongside them as soon as you could. But we also had a post-clinical. And I think the post-clinical was going to be sometimes, actually could sometimes be the most challenging because you had to try to remember, at that time, sometimes you could remember the indicated book 00:39:00reason for a treatment, but you actually remember what it was specifically being used for that given patient. And sometimes I did not always, even though I usually spent a lot of time reviewing the chart, I did not always pick up that chart where it was indicated, either in history and physical, from a physician or the nursing assessment that was done by the nurses, I did not always find that as to where, this is a reason why that [unclear] is being done and here it's listed. Sometimes I would, if I found that written down, when it came time 00:40:00to verbally report it, it didn't always come out as well as if it was written down, by me on a piece of paper. So that was probably what I found the most challenging.

FH: I see.

JM: Converting the, either where I could write down on a piece of paper, which usually was just fine, or reporting that, providing that same information, but providing it verbally rather than writing. It was probably a little bit more challenging in the post-clinical.

FH: Sure. Were there any resources available to nursing students outside of the classroom which helped you?

JM: Oh. I'm trying to think. Outside resources. Even though it was a tiny 00:41:00medical library, I think they did have some information there at Madison General Hospital. It was not just focused on those already working in nursing, but for those looking to go in nursing. That I think there was some text or journals, basically. I know journals were there. So the journals that you could consult. Or you could subscribe to the journal. So where you had students, sometimes you didn't have all that money. So you were looking to, if there's any way I could get it from the library and return it, or make a photocopy, it was a whole lot 00:42:00easier than subscribing, in terms of the money. So I think there, it probably was the nursing journals. Either whether it was [unclear] again, for some reason, or the nursing journal known as Nursing. That was it.

FH: Are there any practices or methods you learned that would be considered unusual today?

42:33

JM: Oh. I'm trying to think where I first learned that one. It was at Columbia Hospital, when I first started there. Practices or methods I learned. This goes back a little, this probably, what I will bring up now is not just today, but 00:43:00probably could apply to at least ten years ago, or 15 years ago or maybe even 20. Because I think the change started then. And that would be as much as you can to, oh, I want to say two. They're probably both involving needles. The needle system. Whereas to avoid finger sticks, the accidental finger stick, I think the practice over and over again of recapping early on, that probably started to be eliminated, I want to say somewhere between 1998 and 2003. Because I think that was one. The other one, and so definitely when I went to Madison 00:44:00General Hospital School of Nursing, it also probably a little bit with UW Milwaukee School of Nursing is the practice of making sure you've got, after you draw something up in the syringe, you recap before you take the syringe to where you're going to be delivering the injection to the patient. Then after you give it, you recap again before you dispose of the needle and the syringe. There's a whole lot of, now they wouldn't even consider doing that. They have the device to put something mechanically over the needle without actually having to try to place the cap back on the needle. I think that was one.

The other one would probably be, I think we were taught to, when we learned how to give injection, a lot of times the injections you gave were for controlling pain. Well now the focus is in, and has been probably almost as long as I've been a nurse. Because I think it started coming in in the mid-1980s, patient-controlled analgesia. Where it's not dependent on intramuscular injection. It's delivered by pressing buttons to deliver a set amount directly 00:46:00into the vein as if you're running either an IV antibiotic, or I will say or an IV. Or a [unclear] IV. And how the focus was giving intramuscular injection and recapping the needle, and now what that transition to giving intramuscular injection or subcu injection and using the devices that the companies came up with so that you don't even have to, your fingers don't even have to approach the needle, especially after the injection is given. I think that would be it.

FH: I see. So after graduating from Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, where did you go to work?

JM: I went to Columbia Hospital in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And I started there November 26, 1979. I started on the orthopedic inpatient unit at the hospital. Which is, Columbia Hospital at that time was across the street from University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.

FH: How long did you work there?

JM: Actually, I worked there from, I worked at Columbia Hospital, which later became Columbia/Saint Mary's, Columbia Hospital, Saint Mary's Hospital, which are only about a mile apart, first in the late 1990s, early 2000s. And became Columbia Saint Mary's. And then Saint Mary's Hospital has always had, even well before we were merged, Saint Mary's Hospital almost got a national affiliation 00:48:00being a Catholic hospital with some, with a, I want to say a sister nun society that were, that had nursing training as well. And I forget, the [unclear] some national affiliation. Well in the, I want to say probably late last decade, 2008 to 2012 Ascension Health System that is around the nation, Columbia Saint Mary's joined Ascension. And little by little, Ascension, it became more and more part 00:49:00of Ascension. And the name change went from Columbia Saint Mary's to Ascension Columbia Saint Mary's. And so from November 1979 to December 2018, I was at Columbia Hospital, which later became Columbia Saint Mary's, which later became Ascension Columbia Saint Mary's. So I started my four year last December. And then I thought well, that's a good time to retire. So, retired.

FH: Great. What were some of the challenges that you faced in your career?

49:37

JM: What were some of the challenges? Working on an orthopedic unit when I first started on the orthopedic unit. Again, one of the big issues there were, two of 00:50:00the big issues, from the perspective of whether it was immobile because of a surgical procedure or immobile because of the nature of the, for lack of a better word, I want to say fracture, the pressure sores, pressure ulcers, sometimes could be rather challenging. And that's definitely one area that the science and treatment of the pressure ulcers has changed, has adjusted over time, probably from 1979 to definitely 2000. And then there have been tweaks 00:51:00between 2000 and at least 2016.

The other one would be with, when a person has surgery, sometimes they tend to develop like, what could happen with any treatment, complications. And one of the complications with anesthesia is changes in the bowel status and developing a, where there are no bowel cells. And the challenge of utilizing a nasal gastric tube to be able to treat the lack of bowel cells, give the chance for 00:52:00the bowel to rest and get going again after the anesthesia issues during surgery. That certainly was a challenge.

FH: Mm hmm. What about any memorable moments in your career? Any that stick out?

JM: Well I think besides the, one of the first memorable moments was the first time I recertified in CPR after certifying in CPR at Madison General Hospital School of Nursing during the ER rotation in 1978. When I recertified two years later, well like now, it's a two-year certification. I was in Milwaukee at the time. Going oh, yeah, I need to recertify in CPR. I was looking for, I was walking around the neighborhood I was living in at the time, at the Lower 00:53:00Eastside, Lower Lower Eastside of Milwaukee. And as I was walking along, I saw the building that had two tiles on it. Visiting Nurse Association and American Heart Association. I was going oh, yeah, that's where my CPR is through American Heart. I went in to ask where I could recertify. They said, well we conduct those classes there. I recertified at one of the central locations in Milwaukee at that time of the American Heart Association. I recertified in the class. The instructor that recertified me, person noted that where I worked and knew that CPR instructor courses were taught at Columbia Hospital. And at that time, I was actively a student at UW Milwaukee. So I said oh, if I could get to do that 00:54:00during this coming summer, it was like six months from when I recertified, if I could do that during the coming summer, it was like right afterwards, I'll be still in the [unclear]. So I'm sure if you touch base with people at Columbia Hospital, she'll give you the schedule. It turned out there was a class in June of 1981. I took the class, became a CPR instructor, just so I would have the repetition and not have two years going oh, I can't remember how to do this. And for like 37 years, I taught CPR as well.

FH: Oh, wow.

JM: But for me it was a way to, I found out that, I taught it sometimes in the public. And then to healthcare professionals after that. And first I started teaching it on the inpatient orthopedic unit. And at that time, I was one of the younger nurses on the unit. And also one of the nurses that had the least 00:55:00experience at Columbia Hospital in terms of not being at Columbia Hospital for very long. And suddenly I was teaching them CPR.

FH: Wow.

55:16

JM: And then in the 1990s, I was, by that time I switched from inpatient orthopedics to inpatient geriatric psychiatry. Columbia Hospital started an inpatient geriatric psychiatry unit in the mid-1980s. And in the early 1990s, the person that had been on the quality nursing council for Columbia Hospital representing the geriatric psychiatry unit, she was looking to step down from that. And she knew that I had that quality assurance on the orthopedic unit 00:56:00collecting the data like once a month, or once every two weeks. And then putting it into the envelope where it could be tallied. And she sat on a committee that looked on all the results that all of us auditors get. She knew that I had that experience from when I worked orthopedics. And though she didn't know me at that time, she got to know me when we were both on the geriatrics psychiatry unit.

I took a role on the quality nursing council representing geriatric psychiatry inpatient unit. Two years later, they decided to make me a co-chair of that council. And so I co-chaired. And then toward the end of those two years, the last meeting as co-chair, one of the staff training members at UW Milwaukee was our liaison for, by that time it changed to quality improvement from quality 00:57:00assurance council. And she saw me, she saw me grow from when I first started as the co-chair two years before, to where I was at the end of that two-year experience. And she made this Japanese, using the, forming a swan out of paper. I'm trying to remember what it is. I had become a, I went from being, I went from being probably an egg to being this full grown swan. And I still remember that experience. And that made an impression on me.

And then after about thirty years of working at Columbia Hospital, Columbia 00:58:00Saint Mary's, to acknowledge my thirty years, the nursing manager that I had at that time that I had for about twenty years, she had to, because at that time Columbia Saint Mary's was, it started from Columbia Hospital, always acknowledged people's years of experience. And for thirty years, they did a little bit extra. It was almost like a tribute. And she [unclear] down the CPR to quality improvement. Quality improvement, just the perspective of what my colleagues thought of me. And one thing I found out, whether from, the first day I started at Columbia Hospital or even at Madison General Hospital School of 00:59:00Nursing to when I retired from essentially Columbia Saint Mary's, I always wanted to, I was always trying to help them stay focused with more knowledge but not lose what brought me into nursing profession. And both from the perspective, one of the things that she put in here into this review of my thirty years, was that my colleagues always looked at me, that I was always the consummate professional doing the job of nursing. And that I also found out that when I first started at Columbia Hospital, that some people always noticed that the time I took to actually listen to people. I listened to the patients. And as 01:00:00quickly as I could I gained information so that they didn't feel that I was just running in and out. They said that I was being nice. They used the word "nice." For me, it was, I don't know if I was being nice. It was a way for me to listen, to understand what they were saying in their words. And whether that's nice or not, that's the only way I could do it is, I got to hear from them. And if it takes them a while to say it, I've got to hear it from them before I can act. And a person that knew me in 1981 said that to me very, from 1980 to 1983, said that at that time. A person that knew me from 2015 to 2018 said it to me then. A 01:01:00person that knew me from 2005 to 2011 said it during that time. I guess I accomplished one of my goals is the fact that the more knowledge, the more experience they got and how to use that knowledge and experience, I didn't change the general, overall foundation of the, throughout the, I didn't become jaded.

FH: That's great. Yeah.

1:01:33

JM: And she closed it with, "The best I can often someone who needs hospitalization is to have John as their nurse." And that's the nursing manager. She wrapped it up much better than I could ever say it. And she also said other things than that, like saying, she just had a way. And again, some of the, in this very short paragraph, she said what I just told you in a much longer 01:02:00expand. She said it in much shorter paragraph. It was succinct. It was the same information. So I wish I had her skill compared to my skill on that one.

FH: That's so great. That's really lovely to hear about. So during your career, did you ever return to Madison?

JM: The, well, again, the only time I went to the Madison General Hospital School of Nursing Alumni Association was this past May. Because, again, I know it was, it's always on Saturday, the first Saturday of May, the weekend before the start of nurses week. Of course I was always usually working. Whether I was working third shift on the Friday night and getting off on Saturday morning, or 01:03:00working third shift Saturday night, or both, or working first shift or second shift on Saturday. So I was never able to go to a [unclear]. So I didn't get back to Madison General Hospital School of Nursing alumni or Madison General Hospital that now is, I can always say Meriter. I can never remember to say UnityPoint. I can never remember that part of it. Because Meriter was at least for thirty years. UnityPoint is much shorter. But I didn't get back to essentially go through until recently, until, well, one or two years ago, to that area. But just was very, it was almost like a walk-through. And then since 01:04:00I also, because I knew I would need an outlet to be able to maintain my sanity and for social life, I was looking for something to do, I found a particular dance form at the time, that was just going to be a social element for me. I wound up, it was a social element, but also the person that first taught me this dance form asked if I wanted to become an instructor, dance instructor in this dance form. She gave me for years to fall in love with the dance form. She persisted for another four years until I took the first part of the exams early in about two decades ago in 2001. And I took the second part of the exams two 01:05:00years after that in 2003. And I've been a certificated Scottish country dance teacher, recognized by the headquarters, which is in Edinburgh, Scotland, of the Royal Scottish Country Dance Society, since 2003 when I got the full certification. I've been a member, I've been a teacher of that form, with the first part of that certification starting in 2001. And to practice, I was practicing probably learning to be, so I could take the exams, written, dancing and teaching. By 2003, I practiced from like 1998 till I took the first exams in 01:06:002001. So from like 1998, I was practicing for three years. Taking the first part of the exams, and then taking the second part of the exams two years after that.

And so I would usually get over to Madison for that activity. Because there was also that activity that occurs in the Madison area. For the longest time, we would be, we were, because there were several people that had some affiliation with the University of Wisconsin, so they could rent a room on Sunday nights at the Alumni Memorial Union. And we usually have our, the Madison group usually has the Scottish balls in the springtime in the great hall at the Memorial 01:07:00Union. So I'm usually participating in those weekend activities. And then I have family and friends that are in the Madison area. So I may not necessarily always be in the area for nursing event time, or during the years, but I'm usually in University of Scotland area during those years.

And I notice one other thing about, I know this about Madison General Hospital School of Nursing, that the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee School of Nursing, apparently when that was first started in the mid-1960s, I think it was a faculty member of the Madison General Hospital School of Nursing that traveled to Milwaukee to start the school. I think the first few graduating classes, the 01:08:00first few people that graduated from the nursing program on the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee campus in the mid-1960s were actually University of Wisconsin, Madison School of Nursing graduates. It's just at that time the Madison program had a satellite.

FH: Oh, okay.

1:08:29

JM: I guess in the mid-1960s, that transition when the University of Milwaukee School of Nursing had full faculty, I want to say by 1970 when they had full faculty and they were standing on their own. But I think for like the first three to five years, '65 to '68 or '65 to '69, I think the people that were in 01:09:00the nursing program on the Milwaukee campus were actually a part of the University of Wisconsin School of Nursing at that time. The only reason I know that is I get information when they get the history of UW Milwaukee School of Nursing. They always share that bridge period at that time. So, anything else?

FH: Two more questions, if that's okay with you.

JM: Sure. I've sort of rambled on there a little bit longer. So I [unclear] answer the question.

FH: (laughs) No. No worries. What advice would you give future nursing students?

JM: What's that?

FH: What advice would you give future nursing students?

1:09:50

JM: The advice I would give future nursing students? Number one, because they're 01:10:00much more adept at, especially the current technology that's being used by I think all of us. But they're using it in a much more consistent, continuous way with whether it's, some will still use flip phones, but they can text as fast as some people that use a screen phone that will be a little bit slow texting on a screen phone. They're not as fast as the ones that use screen phones that are also very fast. But I think with the, or they'll pull up something that, information, e-literature that they've downloaded onto, now I do have to use 01:11:00screen phone, but don't know if a lot of flip phones have figured out the capacity. Whether it's the iPhone or the androids, when they download e-literature, whether it's healthcare, recent medical information, nursing information, they'll just pull it up. The fact that they're so adept at it, read it, I'm almost going because the fact that they're so adept at that, make that part of the process as you use it to be able to then covey what you find there, best way possible to the person that you're giving care with. Because they [unclear] right way. It's just like I said earlier. To find the vocabulary of what they already downloaded on the electronic devices, on the iPhone or the 01:12:00Androids, since they are so adept that you're already adept, just be as adept with translating that and using the vocabulary that you can best provide that information to the person that you're working with as you are helping them through a health situation. Because as I found out last, I was definitely all the way through 2018. But I want to say even from like 2015 on, that being at the ready where you don't have to run to a book or run to a desktop to get 01:13:00information. You're so fast and to be able to either contact a physician by texting and he'll then text you back, or you're so fast at being able to pull up e-literature, make use of those skills to develop the vocabulary that you can express the information you find almost, not instantaneously, but very fast and very quick. You get that information, make use of those skills that you have as you develop to translate what you read or what you, from the e-literature to the 01:14:00words that you can share with the person that may need that information as they face their health condition. And I say health condition. Because sometimes it's as much health prevention and promoting health as opposed to preventing illness. As far as I'm concerned, that part of it, having skills of electronics, they're way ahead of someone like me. As they develop these vocabulary skills they'll continue to be ahead, because they already are using the electronic device the best way possible. So using vocabulary in the best way possible as well, and 01:15:00merge the two together.

FH: Good. Is there anything else you'd like to add or say about your time at the--oh, sorry.

JM: Oh. No. No, no. That's it. Thank you.

FH: Oh, that's it?

JM: Yes.

FH: Okay. I'm going to turn the recorder off, but I'll stay on the phone for a couple of minutes just to get some follow-up information. But that concludes this interview. Thank you so much.

JM: Okay.

75:29

[End Interview.]