Interview with Renato Moro

Partial Transcript: "So what is your current title in your..." I am full professor in contemporary history."

Segment Synopsis: Renato Moro's (RM) current title was full professor of contemporary history in the political science department. He taught both undergraduate and graduate courses. The course topics he taught during the time of the interview were a general course on contemporary history, a graduate course on the international history of peace, and a class on fascism.

Keywords: Contemporary History; Fascism; History; Italy; Peace Studies; Political Science

Partial Transcript: "And where were you born? When and where were you born?"

Segment Synopsis: RM was born in Rome in 1951 to a partial Roman family. His mother and her parents were all born in Rome, belonging to an old middle class Roman Catholic lineage. His father's side of the family came to Rome from southern Italy. RM considered himself to be a "real Roman," which he said is uncommon because Rome is the capital city and attracts many outside people.

Keywords: Roman Catholic; Rome, Italy; Southern Italy

Partial Transcript: "So, what was your childhood like?" "Yes, well my family..."

Segment Synopsis: RM's family was an "engaged Catholic family." His uncle, Aldo Moro, was one of the leaders of the Christian Democracy Party and became the Foreign Minister and later the 38th Prime Minister of Italy. Aldo Moro was also President of the Catholic Federation of University Students (FUCI) and then Secretary General (President of the Catholic Organization for Catholic Graduates) earlier in his career. RM's father was also President of the FUCI and Vice President of the Catholic Graduate Association. His family was very active in the Catholic movement and action in Italy. He categorized his family's involvement with Catholicism as engaged and open due to the progressive stance of the Catholic organizations that the family supported. These organizations were trying to open Catholicism to modernity, instead of reacting against it and pushed for fusion and dialogue in modernity.

Keywords: Aldo Moro; Catholic Federation of University Students; Catholicism; Christian Democracy Party; Italy; Modernity

Partial Transcript: "So this was Catholicism not fundamentalist, not anti-modern, not closed to secular thinking..."

Segment Synopsis: RM continued to discuss the new wave of Catholicism that his family supported. He talked about his parents' enthusiasm during the 2nd Vatican Council and for the new pope, John XXIII, when he was very young. His father brought him to the opening day of the council in 1961 and the Pope gathered people in St. Peter’s Square and gave a famous speech about the moon. His family had many hopes and expectations for a changing Catholic church during this time. This was part of the religious revival after World War II, a subject which George L. Mosse addressed in some of his publications.

Keywords: 1961; Catholicism; George L. Mosse; Pope John XXIII; Religious Revival; Second Vatican Council

Partial Transcript: "My family had also, I would say, high intellectual standards."

Segment Synopsis: RM's family had high intellectual standards. Many of his parent’s friends were important figures in Italian Catholicism: founders of intellectual movements, judges, European Union members, journalists, and historians. RM categorized the environment that he grew up in as stimulating and optimistic. There seemed to be a revival in politics and religion during this time.

Keywords: Catholicism; European Union; Politics; Religion; Revival

Partial Transcript: "So your family was political and it always had this..."

Segment Synopsis: His family heavily discussed politics but could not participate in politics because of his father's position as a judge. RM described developing the attitude of an observer rather than a militant and has never participated in a political movement.

Keywords: Italian Politics; Political Movements

Partial Transcript: "I was a progressive Catholic and so people knew me..."

Segment Synopsis: RM was well known for being a progressive Catholic. During the municipal elections of the 1976, members of the Communist party asked him if he was willing to enlist in the independent group. He refused, because he did not want a career in politics.

Keywords: 1976 Municipal Elections; Communist Party; Italian Politics; Progressive Catholicism

Partial Transcript: "Well it's a rich and fascinating political period in Italy after the war..."

Segment Synopsis: RM never attended Catholic schools and always went to public schools in Rome. His family were engaged Catholics but remained primarily loyal to the public and considered themselves servants and the state. RM's grandfather, after whom he is named, taught elementary school, became a supervisor of schools, and finished his career as a prominent official in the Ministry of Education. RM described his family as having a kind of "cult of public schools." They did not send their kids to Catholic schools because they felt that is was up to the family to teach religion. RM always attended public schools because his family felt that it was important to mingle and interact with the diverse groups within a society. He described his family as secular Catholics rather than confessional. His family revered the Church, but remained independent and emphasized to RM that he always had to think for himself.

Keywords: Catholicism; Education; Public Schools; Schooling

Partial Transcript: "I remember when I went to the preparation to the first communion..."

Segment Synopsis: RM retold a story regarding what the nuns taught him during his preparations for his first communion. The story somewhat paralleled that of Adam and Eve in which a man stole an apple from a garden and then proceeded to take communion, causing his soul to be taken away. RM was so disturbed by the story that he had nightmares and could not sleep. He told his parents about the nun's story and his parents intervened in his first communion preparations and would not allow the nuns to continue teaching their son. This experience taught RM that he did not have to blindly follow the word of a priest or a nun.

Keywords: Catholicism; First Communion; Nuns

Partial Transcript: "So, where did you then go to University?"

Segment Synopsis: RM's interest in history developed in his last year of high school. He had always been interested in the humanities because of his family, which had a strong background in the humanities. RM had a strong love of classical music.

Keywords: History; Humanities; University

Partial Transcript: "Then she married with an American, Jewish."

Segment Synopsis: RM's aunt married a Jewish American mathematician and they moved to America. His Jewish uncle participated in the Manhattan Project and visited Italy every summer. He refused to travel to Germany and said he could not tolerate the sound of the German language. The interviewer contrasted the feelings of RM's uncle on Germany with those of George Mosse.

Keywords: Germany; Holocaust; Italy; Jewish American; Manhattan Project

Partial Transcript: "So the first idea I had was to become a scholar. This was clearly my option."

Segment Synopsis: Throughout high school, RM was not completely sure of what he wanted to study. He originally considered studying literature and music. During his last year of high school, RM started paying attention to his grandmother's stories about her youth. He listened to his grandparents stories about Vienna and Italy in 1919. He also had a very good history teacher during his last year of high school, causing him to consider continuing his studies of history at the university. His family respected the discipline of history, but felt that historians did not have much of an impact on society. His father convinced him to go to law school, where he took courses on the philosophy of law, history of Roman law, and political economy.

Keywords: Grandparents; High School; History; Law School

Partial Transcript: "Well I wanted to change and I passed to humanities."

Segment Synopsis: After completing a few law courses, RM switched back to studying humanities and took some courses in modern history with famous Italian historian, Rosario Romeo. RM described him as a great scholar and a wonderful teacher. The first course that RM took with Professor Romeo was on 16th century Europe and he had to read a book by George L. Mosse for the course. Mosse's book and Romeo's class reaffirmed RM's choice to study history. Mosse's book was not a dualistic approach to 16th century European history, but instead emphasized a lack of modernity and the irrational. RM was struck by how Mosse was able to take an ambivalent approach to history and demonstrated that ambivalence was important to history. RM and the interviewer discussed the individual chapters of Mosse's book.

Keywords: 16th Century Europe; Ambivalence; George L. Mosse; Humanities; Modernity; Rosario Romeo

Partial Transcript: "So then you decided to study with De Felice, is that correct?" "Yes." How did that come about?"

Segment Synopsis: RM continued taking history courses and De Felice taught a fascinating course on the relationship between Italian Fascism and German Nazism before the Nazi seizure of power. He described De Felice as a poor speaker, but his courses were still engaging and interesting. De Felice's course was RM's initial immersion into mass society and how it functions with government. His courses gave RM a nuanced view of history and fascism.

Keywords: De Filiche; German Nazism; History; Italian Fascism; Mass Society; Modern Europe

Partial Transcript: "And then I decided to ask him to be my supervisor for my dissertation."

Segment Synopsis: RM asked De Felice to be his dissertation advisor in the early 1970s. He enrolled in law school during the fall of 1969 and transferred to the school of humanities the following spring. He first started taking De Felice's courses in 1970, a time when De Felice had already started challenging the conventional discourse of history. A controversy that RM deemed "the De Felice affair" erupted in 1975 after De Felice's publication was released on Benito Mussolini, a year after RM graduated.

Keywords: 1970s; Benito Mussolini; De Felice Affair; Renzo De Felice

Partial Transcript: "What was he like as an advise? It seems to me that he was a fairly austere person, perhaps a bit distant."

Segment Synopsis: RM talked about how De Felice constantly suggested new perspectives, documents, and interpretations for RM's dissertation. De Felice almost never intervened in RM's textual dissertation. He would simply read RM's writing and make suggestions regarding which directions the dissertation could possibly go, an encouraging and liberal approach that was unusual among Italian academics.

Keywords: Dissertation; Italian Academics; Renzo De Felice

Partial Transcript: "So what then did you write your dissertation on?"

Segment Synopsis: RM started the research on his dissertation in 1972 and began the writing process in 1974. His dissertation was on the cultural origins of Christian democracy and his thesis was titled "the Political Culture of Catholic Action during Fascism." RM met Mosse while writing his dissertation, but had not yet read much of Mosse's work. RM took a political science course in which he wrote a paper on a book by De Felice, which included Mosse's ideas on German ideology and left an impression of RM. His dissertation was shaped by De Felice's approach to cultural fascism.

Keywords: Christian Democracy; Dissertation; Fascism; George L. Mosse; German Ideology; Renzo De Felice

Partial Transcript: "Well before we talk more about your work and your research interests, perhaps we should briefly discuss your uncle, Aldo Moro."

Segment Synopsis: The interviewer described his impressions of RM's uncle, Aldo Moro. Aldo Moro was not the "typical" Italian politician; He was an intellectual and deeply religious and felt it was his ethical duty to be involved in politics. The interviewer got the impression that Aldo Moro was essentially optimistic and interested in governance and making systems work.

Keywords: Aldo Moro; Catholicism; Italian Politics

Partial Transcript: "So perhaps if you'd like to talk a little bit about him and your relationship with him."

Segment Synopsis: RM discussed how Aldo Moro was so busy that his family felt his political career took him away from them. RM mainly only saw his uncle on holidays like Christmas and Easter. Aldo Moro had a wife and four children. RM described his uncle as gentle and pushed against the Italian media's characterization of him as pessimistic, sad, and stern. RM and his immediate family spent the summers with Aldo Moro, and his uncle was always very busy. His uncle would spend hours reading the newspapers, which was his way of keeping in tune with the country. RM's father and his uncle would often go on walks together and Aldo always walked swiftly. When RM was working on his dissertation, he wanted to interview his uncle, but had difficulty scheduling a time for the interview due to his uncle's busy schedule. Aldo Moro saw Italy as a diverse country and had a progressive vision for the country. His uncle grew up under fascism, which influenced the way he approached politics. He wanted mass participation in politics.

Keywords: Aldo Moro; Christian Democracy; Family; Fascism; Italism Politics; Political Participation

Partial Transcript: "And then shortly before he died, his role in that..."

Segment Synopsis: RM discussed his uncle's role in the "Communist Affair." Based on his studies of Aldo Moro and his politics, RM was convinced that his uncle would have liked to always hold to center-left policies. His uncle was not a communist, but the political conditions of Italy made it difficult for his uncle to hold to center-left policies. After the 1976 elections, the Christian Democracy party and the Communists were the two dominant parties in control of Italian politics. Aldo Moro was kidnapped and assassinated in 1978.

Keywords: Aldo Moro; Assassination; Christian Democracy Party; Communist Affair; Communist Party; Italian Politics

Partial Transcript: "Well, unless you have anything more to say about your uncle..." "I think not." "Okay, we can talk then a little bit more about your own work."

Segment Synopsis: RM's research was on the relationship between religion and politics. Meeting Mosse changed RM's perspectives and emphasis to popular culture. He realized that religion and politics were not just linked culturally, but that modern mass politics shaped and transformed religion. He was originally studying Catholicism and Fascism and eventually became interested in how Catholicism was transformed by fascism. RM began working on the politicization of religion. During the 19th century, religion became a mass ideology that competed with other political and philosophical mass ideologies in all realms of life.

Keywords: Catholicism; Fascism; George L. Mosse; Modern Mass Politics; Politics; Popular Culture; Religion

Partial Transcript: "For example, I worked on Catholic antisemitism."

Segment Synopsis: RM preformed research on Catholic antisemitism. Tradition Catholic antisemitism was based on religion because the Jews followed a "wrong and obscure religion," and ignored the "truth." However, 19th and 20th century Catholic antisemitism was not justified on the grounds of religion, but instead rooted in the fact that the Jews were a powerful minority without a nation and had a lot of wealth, all of which were secular arguments for antisemitism influenced by political developments. RM stated that George Mosse's work was fundamental in forming the methodology that he applied to studying history. Mosse gave him a broader perspective of history.

Keywords: Antisemitism; Catholicism; George L. Mosse; Religion

Partial Transcript: "So that continuity in Mosse's work between his early modern and how that carried through all his work..."

Segment Synopsis: The interviewer discussed the continuity in Mosse's work on early modern Europe and how that carried through the rest of his work on mass politics and liberalism. RM felt that all of Mosse's claims and work centered around the theme of irrationality. The first book RM read by Mosse was on 16th century Europe and the beginning of modernity and humanism, but it also addressed the importance of irrationality. All of Mosse's work strived to explain in rational terms the power of irrationality during modernity. Most of his work on late modern Europe was translated into Italian, but almost none of his studies on the early modern period were available in Italian, which meant that Mosse was known as a historian of nationalism in Italy and not one of irrationality.

Keywords: Early Modern Europe; George L. Mosse; Irrationality; Italy; Late Modern Europe

Partial Transcript: "So well, perhaps we could talk just a little bit about your own personal encounters with Mosse."

Segment Synopsis: RM's first encounter with Mosse was while reading one of his books and then RM later had Mosse in a seminar. He felt that he truly discovered Mosse while reading his publication on the nationalization of the masses. RM was urged to read this book by De Felice. The book caused RM and his fellow colleagues to discuss Mosse's ideas and read more of his works. They studied the methodology that Mosse applied to history. De Felice invited Mosse to take one of his seminars in Italy and Mosse came and discussed his new research on war and racism. RM described him as not being the standard scholar that he expected. Mosse dressed unconventionally, but was not pretentious. Mosse was curious, loved different perspectives, and wanted to know the other people in the seminar. RM became a full professor in 1990 and taught classes based on Mosse's research. His first course was on the history of antisemitism and included Mosse's books as required reading.

Keywords: 16th Century Europe; George L. Mosse; Nationalization of the Masses; Renzo de Felice

Partial Transcript: "So then you went to Camerino..."

Segment Synopsis: RM's first job as a full professor was teaching at a small university with only a few students in Camerino. RM took Mosse on a car trip to Camerino along with the interviewer. Mosse was astonished by the fact that RM and the students did not live in Camerino. They commuted to campus. This was contrary to everything Mosse thought of as a university, which was a community of students and professors. The interviewer reminisced about the trip to Camerino with Mosse and RM.

Keywords: Camerino; George L. Mosse; Italy; Teaching; Undergraduate Life

Partial Transcript: "Well maybe now I guess we could...I don't want to take up too much more of your time..."

Segment Synopsis: Mosse's interview on Aldo Moro was made in 1979 and became available in 1981. The interviewer felt that Mosse's interview highlighted the career of Aldo Moro and the relevance of Mosse's ideas on mass politics to that particular Italian political situation. The first edition of the interview was not well received when it was initially released. Mosse was able to place Aldo Moro within the framework of current issues of parliamentarian mass politics. RM speculated that the interview was originally not well received because Italians felt that their politics was peculiar and could not be compared to broader trends and instances within mass politics. People also felt that an American scholar could not understand all the complexities of the Italian situation. Mosse also used the abjective liberal in his discussion of Aldo Moro's policies, causing a linguistic difference that did not reside well with Italian audiences. The term "liberal" for Italians had a different connotation then it did for Anglo-Saxons. The audiences misinterpreted Mosse's use of the term liberal as a definition of Aldo Moro that was more conservative then he was in reality. Mosse's discourse on the role of mass symbols in politics also received backlash. At the time, Italy was divided between Marxism and political sociology.

Keywords: Aldo Moro; George L. Mosse; Interview; Italian Politics

Partial Transcript: "So most of his discourse seemed extravagant."

Segment Synopsis: At the time of the interview's release, many Italians viewed Mosse as a foreigner with extravagant views. When the new edition later came out, the interview had a much more positive reception and Mosse was often quoted by scholars studying Aldo Moro. When the interview was initially released, Aldo Moro was only studied by Italian students who placed him in a strictly Italian framework. The scholarship on Aldo Moro has since opened up to researchers from other countries.

Keywords: Aldo Moro; George L. Mosse; Italian Politics; Scholarship

Partial Transcript: "I think it's quite extraordinary how prescient and relevant Mosse's work is in the current political context."

Segment Synopsis: RM and the interviewer agreed that Mosse's work was more relevant in the current political climate then the scholarship of many of his contemporaries. In Mosse's interview on Aldo Moro, he included an analysis on the perils of modern democracy. Fascism had an alignment between the individual and the state, giving citizens a sense of wholeness that is lacking in democracy. Fascism gave people a sort of cultural satisfaction which is absent in the mercantile economies of democracy and its politics. Mosse's work is especially relevant in the current political and global contexts because of the issues surrounding digital progress, mass immigration, and economics. The interviewer discussed the positivism of the technological elite and their disconnect with the rest of society. RM felt that Mosse's work on racism and the irrationality of science is still important.

Keywords: Aldo Moro; Democracy; Fascism; George L. Mosse; Globalization; Politics

Partial Transcript: "Reflecting about the Italian case, I think we have an extraordinary contradiction..."

Segment Synopsis: RM characterized the Italian political situation as one of the most stable in the world, because from 1945-1992 one party had central control of the government. The Italian system was based on a mutual consensus between the communists and the Christian Democrats who were in power. RM felt that Italian politics entered an age of mass ideology and delegitimization of government when the cold war ended. Aldo Moro focused on governing and not ideology, but many current leaders just focus on ideology.

Keywords: Christian Democracy Party; Communism; Italian Poltics; Mass Ideology

Partial Transcript: "I have my truth and I will not compromise it with everybody."

Segment Synopsis: Compromise has become a "dirty word" in Italy. RM described his uncle, Aldo Moro, as a man of compromise and defined compromise as "finding solutions together." RM believed that compromise should be the essence and basis of politics, but that is not the case in the current political climate. He felt that compromise has become "criminal" in Italy.

Keywords: Aldo Moro; Compromise; Italian Politics

Partial Transcript: "Well perhaps we'll talk a little bit about your current work."

Segment Synopsis: RM has been collaborating with the Mosse Program in History on researching Aldo Moro. He was publishing information on the juvenile years of his uncle. The experience has taught RM that you can be a member of a family and write about your family as a historian. He also looked into the private life of his uncle and while doing so discovered the life of his grandmother, who was a feminist journalist and a school teacher. RM was president of the national edition of Aldo Moro's works. Some of RM's students were working on a new biography of Aldo Moro that divided his life into three parts.

Keywords: Aldo Moro; George L. Mosse Program in History