Interview with Manuela Romero

Troy Reeves 00:01

Okay, today is July 16, 2021. This is an interview with Manuela Romero. I am Troy Reeves. I'm with the University Archives. This interview is being done for academic staff award winners oral history project. To start off with to help us with the sound quality. Could you start by saying your name and spelling your last name?

Manuela Romero 00:26

Manuela Romero, R-O-M-E-R-O

Troy Reeves 00:30

Perfect. I'm just going to turn this down just a little bit. You speak at that tone is is perfect. So first question, I gave you the list of topics and advanced. First question's, a pretty broad one. But basically, you know what brought you to UW Madison?

Manuela Romero 00:47

Um, so I'm, I'm married to an academic. At the time, we were both professors at the University of Texas, El Paso. And at the time, I was looking to leave my tenure track position. And I wanted to take on another position. I had written a grant with some colleagues. And that grant actually took me to it's an advanced grant, which is what led to WISELI here at UW Madison. And in El Paso, we had a similar activity and we went to our one of our annual conferences. I met Jen Sheridan and Molly Carnes had that conference, and they had just written another grant, which is the Louis Stokes for Alliance Minority Participation. And we're looking for an executive director. And they, they sent me the ad and said, you know, would you ever be willing to come to Wisconsin, since I was already looking to leave academia, that seemed like a good match for me in terms of the kinds of things that I was interested in doing. I'm a sociologist, my PhD is in sociology, and I, I study organizations or organizational structures, and the grant actually provided me an opportunity to combine some of the things that I had been studying. Which, so I'll answer that in, in the second question about the factors for your work and research interests. But um, so anyways, we I ended up getting the position, since my husband was on tenure track, we asked that, you know, I said, I can only come if my husband gets at least a three year visiting appointment, because our son was in, in elementary school, and three years would put him in right before high school. And so we figured we would change at a time when it was good for him to change. So they did give him a visiting position. This is one of the things I think when I first came here, this had never been done, faculty always brought their spouse with them, but an academic staff member to create a, a faculty position was unheard of. And people 00:03:00were incredibly amazed that that had happened, and incredibly surprised. So. So we did that my husband ended up getting a tenure track position before the three year visiting term ended. And now he's tenured and full professor here at the university. So that's what brought us here is for me to be the executive director of the Wisconsin Alliance for Minority Participation.

Troy Reeves 03:26

Great, thank you for that. You alluded to you were you were talking, alluding to the second question I want to ask, so I'll just go right ahead and ask it. And that's what factors led to your work/research interests.

Manuela Romero 03:40

Okay. So my particular interests I'm, I'm a quantitative sociologist. So what I was interested in, were the type of unwritten rules or type of unwritten metrics that organizations use to evaluate individuals that would somehow hinder or promote advancement for people. So I was interested in the written rules. So I was interested in the organizational structure, in particular, the policies and practices that organizations have in place, both written and unwritten, but I was particularly interested in the unwritten that that would allow for advancement or hinder opportunities for women and underrepresented minorities. Because my PhD is at Stanford. And I was collecting original data. So a lot of quantitative organization. Sociologists use existing data, but I was particularly interested in organizations and so therefore, I had to collect my data. And at the time, I was working for the firm that allowed me to use them as a research cite. This meant that I was in the electronic manufacturing industry, which meant that I needed to study engineers, in particular, because that's who that's the majority of their workforce is engineers. And so, as profession, you know, as professionals, it's engineers. And so I had to learn about, about the profession of engineering. This was, you know, now it's a very hot topic, we study STEM and underrepresentation, at the, at the time that I was studying, and there was very little work out there. As to and, and we were beginning to notice that the gaps were going wider and wider between, you know, between white males and everyone else in terms of the likelihood that they were in a, in an engineering degree, and, or in any STEM degree. But so this was a particular interest at that time. So while I had envisioned a dissertation that was much broader and bigger, because this was an area[?] of study, it actually ended up becoming more of a of these are the facts kind of dissertation. And I did study engineers in the process. And I was particularly interested in that because at 00:06:00least in the electronics manufacturing industry, when, you know, it moved from being a manufacturing to heavily being an r&d. And one of the things that state in California was when it was manufacturing, the, the predominant individuals that were hired were Hispanics of various backgrounds, as you saw it moved to an r&d, then you saw, of course, that moving away, you know, those men, but what it allowed when it was more manufacturing based than it was here in the US was a gave opportunities for Hispanics that had never been there. But as r&d grew more, more of a focus for these electronic manufacturing industries, and they exported their manufacturing plants outside of the United States, then those opportunities went away. And who that left then were in, we had never trained them appropriately, we hadn't really brought them up to speed, you know, them being in this particular situation, Hispanics, up to speed to be able to take some of these r&d positions. So I became very fascinated in this [word unclear]. Engineering as a profession, engineering as a profession that, you know, in large part grew because of the the, oh god, why am I blanking on it? It'll come to me in a minute. The GI, the GI education benefit that people that people that were in the military could have, and that was right after World War Two. And a lot of because educational opportunities were more likely to go to males, white males in particular, and discrimination was still very much in place. They, we, a lot of working class white males, then were able to move into the middle class by getting an education via the GI Bill. And what that meant, because we were in this place in history, was that engineering was the profession that they focused in. So when we think about engineering, it actually began as one of those disciplines, which gave working class white men an opportunity to move into the middle class in particular. And what it has done over time, is that those opportunities have now practically eroded. You know, engineering is becoming such an upper middle class profession. But now, you know, I'm talking about my research, but you can see why I I'm excited, I was excited about this research, because it just allowed me it was so mixed with so many possibilities. But what happened when I why I became disenchanted with being in the in as a tenure track, and making that kind of impact was because I saw that we were writing 00:09:00almost for one another, and we really weren't impacting organizations. And at least at that point, I began to think I, I need to make a difference in this, where can I make a difference in this, that I can see that, you know, I don't have to die before people start infecting my ideas or my practices or taking them for, you know, for what they're worth. And when this opportunity presented itself with, which was, you know, Executive Director for Wisconsin, West Camp, I, it was an opportunity to study STEM degrees and for what that does, the Louis Stokes Alliance for Minority Participation is an NSF funded grant opportunity that provides institutions alliances, with opportunities to focus on and create more look at where the gaps are and create programming to allow more diversity in STEM degrees. So that sort of brought two things that I was very much interested in together and allowed me the opportunity to come-- well allowed me the opportunity to continue to study that. And then we came to Wisconsin. When I was in thinking about where I was going to go to graduate school, Wisconsin was one of the places that I was thinking of. And I just thought, no, I can never go there. It's such a difference. I was in California. And then I ended up being here. And I have to tell you, I love it. We moved in winter. And everybody used to tell us, you know, wow, you're probably shocked by how cold it is, and how, and I said, No, you know, I'm really not, I love it. I love it. I said, What I'm shocked about it, when summer came around, I said, what actually I don't have snow shock, I have green shock, I never realized there were this many versions of the color green. Because in California, we tend to have one predominant color, oh, green. So, so I ended up just we ended up just loving, I ended up loving it here, my husband, he doesn't like the cold so much. But um, and our son now, you know, ended up going to high school here graduating and graduating from college, etc. So now I consider us and I'm about to retire this year. So it's like, I'm gonna, end my career in Wisconsin, where I thought I probably would never come.

Troy Reeves 11:13

That's a that's a, that's a great story. Thank you for for all of that. So the next question is, you know, when asked, I assume you're asked, how do you describe what you do?

Manuela Romero 11:31

So now I'm in a different position, right? I'm an Associate Dean now. And I moved there from being an assistant dean as well. And I have to tell you, I mean, the reason that I think I came into this Assistant Dean position was because Steve Cramer, and he was the associate dean at the time in engineering, I was a Wiscamp executive director, he saw an opportunity for social science, in particular, my background that was so engineering focus, to have an impact into the college, in particular, this focus on on the policies and the practices. So, 00:12:00as I, you know, came in as an assistant dean and did some work there. What I tell people that I do is that I tell people that I help organizations think about the types of structures that they need to create, to welcome everybody and help everyone succeed. That's sort of the short answer, right. And so what I say is, if it comes to more, I say, you know, in particular, I'm interested about the kinds of practices that we have in place the kinds of policies, a lot of the times we write policies, and we don't think about how they're going to impact various people. And that's where I begin, almost anything that we're looking at is I say, okay, we have this practice, say, for example, in advising, we we used to have, that's one of the units I oversee now, we used to have these practices, whereby if the student was dropped by the university, for example, if the student had come and met with an advisor, we treated that student differently than if they had never come to talk to an advisor, talking to an advisor was seen as a positive as being proactive as being, you know, wanting to understand. And I said, we need to turn this completely around. If a student is being dropped, it's probably because they're checking out as a student, of course, they're not going to come to their advisor, of course, they're not going to do all of these things, right? Because they're checking out of the institution. And so we completely turn that around. That's usually an example that I pose, you know, another example that I use a lot, as I said, because we deal with students said, one of the things that I began to notice pretty quickly was that when we were meeting with students that were in crisis, I started noticing, they don't come to our meetings with backpacks, I so I trained my advisors, for example, to notice that is a student coming into your office with the backpack still, because if they are, they're still engaging as a student, they're still identifying a student, but if they're not, they're no longer. They're already so disengaged, that they don't even want to carry around that thing that defines them as a student. And so you that is an indicator that you have a student who is much more in crisis, much more detached than one who is still carrying the backpack. So those are some examples of the kinds. That's a practice, right. The other one is a policy or an implementation of a policy. So that's what I tell people that I do.

Troy Reeves 14:34

Those were two great examples. I wonder if you have one or two others too, about how you've tried to either change policy or practice?

Manuela Romero 14:45

Sure.

Troy Reeves 14:45

Or both.

Manuela Romero 14:47

Sure. So one, for example, and this happened right away that like this, this was probably one of my biggest changes when I first started in engineering as a as an assistant dean We have a policy in place, which allowed our students to take 00:15:00their ethnic study of requirement on a pass fail basis. Okay? This was done with great and good intentions, what? What faculty that put this policy in place thought, you know, this is going to be a hardcore course for our students, any liberal science courses hard for an engineer, they have the write they have to think differently. And engineers, as as a group, that's why they are engineers, they don't like to write, they don't like to speak, they don't you know, so this is almost diametrically opposed to what an engineer is. So engineers are also incredibly worried about their GPA. So if we allow them to take this pass fail, then they don't have to worry about their GPA. Great intentions, right? Well, when I first started some of the people, Elaine, in LNS came to me and she said, Manuela, you know, we've been wanting to talk to someone like you, that would understand this. We've had conversations with engineering in the past. But this hasn't really gone anywhere. But we think you would understand this, the faculty that teacher ethnic studies requirements, would like you to change this to a grade as opposed to a pass fail. And they said, because they the students that are pass fail, end up showing up to class at like, they don't care, are taking it easy, because they basically know that all they need is a C to get a pass. And sometimes they're they're creating chaos in the classroom. And the people that teach these classes are just, you know, they're they're, they're at their wit's end, with engineers doing this, you would think that would have been an easy process. It took me about a year, okay to meet with faculty. But here's the thing when you show data to engineers so then I asked Elaine, to help me create some data, let's interview some of these faculty members, get some examples, because I knew I couldn't just present it. And the idea and the way that it was presented to me, you know, I took a look at, you know, what was the percentage of pass? What was the percentage of fail? What were we doing presenting? And then I took this to our curriculum committee, and I said, here's a problem. And here's how we can fix it. And if you present that to engineers in that way, they're readily able to get on board, right? And so they saw this. And then they said, Well, why are we even letting our engineers take anything for pass fail? All of their classes, especially the social science, classes should not be pass fail. Let's make it only electives. So that's an example of another policy. What's another practice? Let me think about a practice because you wanted another one, right? With practice.

Troy Reeves 17:54

Yeah. If, I mean, if, if another process jumps out at you, that's fine. But

Manuela Romero 17:58

Well I'm not sure whether this is a practice or process? Um advisedly I think 00:18:00this is a what is it a practice or process? So there's, um, you know, the way that we go about hiring people, often doesn't give opportunity for other things to come through, in, in, in, in either written materials or interview even. So what we began to, well, this was something I, what I noticed was that often the way that people presented and felt that it was good, because I brought in a very diversity lens to the work that I do. Okay. And so one of the, I don't know if this is a practice, I think it's a practice I just said, we don't have a very diverse group here. It's all white females, I said, and yet we we reach a population that is predominantly white male, we need to get more guys that are advisors. And we also just need to get more representation, ethnic representation here. But what happens is in when we go to our practice, when we go to implement these, we are looking for particular things that sometimes do not allow us to see the potential of other individuals. And so I mean, I just began to have practices that what am I telling you, I'm telling you a practice, right, that that allowed us to look at. So, but see, this is kind of more policy. I'm getting mixed up because it's hard to disaggregate these. Okay.

Troy Reeves 19:45

Yeah.

Manuela Romero 19:46

And that I think, is a part of the work. So what happens is that, you know, I said, first of all, we put nothing in our PBLs that tell people that diversity is central to the work that we do. And so I came up with two particular bullets in our PBLs that talked about, you know, must be competent, this was required. It wasn't optional, okay? Must show competence and you know, being able to communicate and I forget the bullets there in our PDLs, you know about cultural sensitivity, be able to communicate with people of all backgrounds. And we ask particular questions that got it at that we fine tuned our questions as to questions throughout time, you know, and we definitely have a diverse staff now, we have four white males in advising, and we have two ethically or underrepresented people in our advising staff out of 12, you know, so, I mean, to me, that is, those are practices that you both, you train your people throughout time, you know, the somebody, somebody quite recently was in our staff meetings, and it happened to be a part of our staff meetings for for my leadership team, over a period of a month. And one of the things that she told 00:21:00me after this, she said, you know, you have, it is so clear that diversity is first and foremost, to the people in your leadership team. Like, how did you do this? And I said, I guess it's by leading by example. And it's what I hold them to, and what I ask of them, and, and this is, I guess, more practices, because we don't really have policies about it. Right. So that would be one, the other one I'm gonna tell you, it's probably more concrete. So I began to show our advisors, and again, this was by, by how I emulated was, when we approached people in our meetings, especially those students that come to us having had issues, we can show our biases, in that if we don't check our biases, we then will lead to a very different outcome than we might want, if we check our biases first. And I did a little training with our advisors, and then it just so happen then I had an opportunity where I was to meet with, I had three or four more advisors, we were all going to meet with this parent in the student in the student had given us a lot of issues and, and we had gotten some parental calls. And it was clear that the parents were divorced. And you know, the student was getting pressure from one end and the other end. And I was coming into the meeting, and I saw dad sitting outside. And he had on a motorcycle jacket. You know, and and it was clear that he oh his son had already told us that his dad loved motorcycles or whatever, you know, so he was he had on a motorcycle jacket. And I went into the meeting with our three advisors were Wait, you know, we're there. And then I closed the door. And then I said, okay, here's an opportunity, I said, I need to check my biases, because here are some assumptions I just made of that man. He is out there he is in a motorcycle jacket. I said, if you look at him, he is smartly dressed. He looks like he's really cool. I said, he's gonna come in here, and he's probably just going to be this laid back guy who doesn't really, you know, he might not care about his son. Or if he does, he's gonna be kind of pushy. He's gonna be kind of savvy and suave, and you know, wanting to use a male charisma, because this is what he's putting out. So I've checked it. This is what I think I'm doing. Now. Can you guys tell me what you guys have done? So we did that. We did it in walks the parent. And he was the total opposite of everything we had thought that he would be, he was incredibly caring of his son, he wanted his son to succeed, he knew that there was tension between him and his ex wife, he talked about how he was contributing to that and how he didn't want it interfering with the son. I mean, 00:24:00it was completely opposite. Had I not checked in that bias, I might have had a tone with him, that might have set off other things that would have fed into the bias that I had already made up him. But instead, I stopped to check that bias. I showed my advisors how to do it. Afterwards, we talked about it. And I and I said if this happens to you, that's what you each are for is to be able to do that. So that we don't, we don't guide the outcome of something before we explore the possibilities, because I could have very well guided the outcome of that discussion in a very negative way. And instead, this became a very positive exchange with the father and the son. And the son ended up graduating, you know, he wanted to leave engineering. And you know, we ended up allowing for that. So it was just you know, so is that is that does that work as, as a couple of examples?

Troy Reeves 25:08

Yes,

Manuela Romero 25:09

Of course, there's also the practice of when we move to directed met and how I assure, oh, I can tell you that actually, because it's a combination of my quantitative skills, and sort of okay,

Troy Reeves 25:19

Yeah, please do.

Manuela Romero 25:20

When we were going to huh, okay, when we were going to direct admit. In part, we were doing this because there were two reasons. One was, students were coming in pre engineering, and they applied to in to be in an engineering major after having spent their their freshman or sophomore year there. And what was happening was that some departments were growing dramatically in other departments were diminishing. And the the time period in the third and fourth semesters was just growing, it was almost growing much larger than undergrad whole population. At the time, I think we had something like 3500 students, about 1200 of those were in this waiting period, in a spot that they probably were never going to get into engineering. So part of the reason that we went into this was to minimize that and make it very clear to students, oh, a lot of the expectations hustle. So they would apply, for example, to BME well BME was expecting something like a 3.5 or a 3.6. But this wasn't written anywhere. Students had no idea this wouldn't students were never told that this was the GPA that they were being held to. And so I said, you know, we have these practices that are not evident to students and are not transparent, and they're hurting our students, we need to have these practices open and transparent. When I first started coming to these meetings, they also, um, believe it or not, we're guessing gender and race by the name of the student. Okay, when this is a SIS[?] data item, okay. And I just said, we, we can't be doing this, you know, 00:27:00we know the gender, we know the race of these students, because one of our policies is that if a department is at full capacity, issues of under representation has to be taken into account so that we can diversify our college. So I knew that departments were going to try to keep GPA measures in place, and there were going to be particular classes that they were going to want. So I started creating, I did a bunch of analysis to try to show them where were the cut offs? So for example, if you had a 3.5 GPA, who are you letting in and who you're not letting in, if you just went down to 3.4. Who were you letting in who you're not letting in? And so I did this, and I showed it to them and allow them to create. So we had one department, BME who decided that they were going to ignore the data that I was providing they were going to stay with their 3.5. And they were going to require students to take statics. And I said, okay, fine, I said, but I know that in a year or two with direct admit, all you're going to have is sons and daughters, of engineers, or of doctors, I said, that's what you're going to have, you're going to have a highly middle upper class students in here, but also, it's going to be a very narrow scope. Because mainly the BME students want to go on to medical school. So [word unclear], it's gonna be so narrow, that you're mainly going to have kids of doctors. Sure enough, two years later, right? Every applicant, everything that we were seeing my I see my dad, as a doctor, my mom, as a doctor has won me, I want to become a doctor because my mom is my grandfather as my grandmother is. And then I said, you need to take away that requirement of statics, because only the very, very well prepared students can take statics their first year, and let so that's a social economic barrier. It is a gender barrier. And it is definitely an ethnic barrier. So that's an example of sort of both practices and policies coming together that I helped, you know, and sure enough, they came to me, you know, what, what started was that fact one particular faculty member said to me, I'm noticing that all that all that's in my class are these, you know, kids of doctors, and I said, yes, this is what I said you would have as an outcome. And they said, how do we change that it was a different faculty member at that time. I said, you take away this requirement, I said, and I promise you, you will have a more diverse, you're still going to have great students. Here's the thing about engineering. We get the top students in the university said you're already getting the cream of the crop no matter how you cut or dice this data, you're 00:30:00already getting the best students that apply to the university, you don't need to have that requirement, you're closing the door on too many individuals. And then they, you know, they voted as a faculty, they brought down their GPA they took took away that requirement. And they still have great students. So but you know, it required a lot of I happen because I'm a quantitative sociologist, I was also trained in event history analysis. So that meant that I could follow them through a path of, you know, what I basically did was, what insurance companies used to come up with the ages of cut offs. So I did the same thing. But for this, like I did GPAs instead. But because I knew life history analysis, I only I then, instead of putting age there, I put GPA, and I would then show how the slopes would would diminish, the more we increase the requirement, then the and the GPA, the more varied the population became. Right. So.

Troy Reeves 31:01

This might be an obvious question, but so do you believe that your, your research that you've done before you got this job, all of these jobs, you've had really benefited you? When you had these discussions and tried to get these policies and practices?

Manuela Romero 31:18

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. My focus and everything. I mean, I've already have told my dean that I'm retiring. And, you know, one of the first things they said, both him and the Executive Associate Dean was that they recognized that they needed to have someone with the social science background in this position, you know, who had some focus research in in diversity, you know, and not as not focused resarch in diversity, I'm sorry, but more of a who understands the dynamics, both interpersonal dynamics, as well as how we look at our organizations. So when we look at a problem, how do we look at it? And basically, when I look at a problem, I look at it from the type of training that I've had, right? What is the real question we're asking here? When we do this, what happens to x? What happens to y? What are all the different variables that we need to think about when we're putting this project together when we're putting the service together? But that's absolutely from my research. And from my training, I wouldn't have been able to have that, that lens into the work, had I not been trained the way that I was trained, and what I was interested in, you know, learn the engineering profession as well, as I did, I ended up taking engineering classes at Stanford as a graduate student that I would have never taken had I not been interested in engineers in particular, I knew what the curriculum was, like, you know, not because I have a degree in it, but because I had to study it in order. I mean, I had to know something about the profession, as in in terms of studying it.

Troy Reeves 33:01

Thank you. So I have a question that sort of falls under the category never assume or or even as you say it, you know, sort of check your bias. So I want to ask you, directly, you know, why this strong interest in equity, diversity? Inclusion is another word we now use on campus. Why why where'd that come from? Why is it important?

Manuela Romero 33:35

You know, when I was a professor, and I was guiding people to write their dissertations, and taking up research, dissertation topics with students, I would always tell them is this does this is this topic somehow, does this topic somehow have a personal connection to you, in some way or another? If it doesn't, you're not going to see it through. This is a very long career. You're not going to see it through. If it does, let's go. Let's make that a project. So what I'm telling you is, all of this has a personal connection to me, right? I I you know, I grew up in, in in a ranch very working poor. Okay, and I have a farmworker background. I saw I saw the ways in which my dad in particular but also my mother, were treated by systems. My parents, even though they were already had emigrated to the US before I was born, spoke some English, but and spoke it quite well. My mother's in particular. But as I grew older, and navigating organizations was very difficult, right. And often, there were nuances or unwritten rules, unwritten practices that you had to learn. And for someone who isn't a product of this country, or is first generation, you don't know what those are, like, you know, you don't know what that is. And unless someone teaches you this, you, you don't know about them. And it unless we make them explicit, then we don't know about these, we somehow so that's the personal connection, right? I can, I'll tell you as a side story, I, my advisor in graduate school, I had I had told them, you know, I'm first generation, I'm low income, I'm everything that you can possibly think of. When you look at underrepresentation, and when I went to go defend my, my, my dissertation, I said to him, I have no idea. At that point, our our defenses were private only 00:36:00to the individual that was there. And if someone in someone got invited to them to that. And so I said to him, I have no idea how one presents this, you know, how do I dress? What do I do you need, I was always very clear with him, you need to tell me what I need to do, because I had learned from working with my parents that there were things that they just didn't know, you know, they would go to an appointment or something and be there without a key element that they needed to have at that meeting. And no one told them that that was needed, right. And then they'd have to make another appointment to bring back that. And then there was another little thing that it's like, you know, you could have told me all of these things. And we could have come prepared, right? So there was things like that, and I didn't want to be thrown out, thrown off base. So you know, I, when I was doing this, he allowed me he he allowed me to to be a part of one presentation that I had not been invited to, but he he allowed the person that was defending, he talked to that person, and then that person allowed me to go, so I was able to see it. But the day of so I went and I did my presentation I did my defense and everything else he came back outside, you know, in the classical thing is to say, Dr. Romero, you can now come into the room, which is tells you you know, you've now passed and you're now a doctor, right? And he came up to me and he said, Dr. Romero, you can now come back into the room. He says, it is customary for you to go into the room and shake everyone's hands. I wouldn't have known to do that. Had he not told me. But by that point, I had already trained him well enough that he knew that he needed to tell me, you need to shake everybody's hand, you know. And so this is why you know, so this is, first of all, this is what I tell students all the time. And what I tell people, you know, when you're meeting with students, sometimes you have to spell everything out because they don't know, don't think that because they didn't look you in the eye or because they didn't shake their hand that they're being rude. He just didn't know, you know. So that's why.

Troy Reeves 37:58

Thank you. I appreciate that answer. So the next question is, and I should-- I try to preface this question by saying that I understand that there's usually no such thing as a typical day. But what sort of tasks might comprise a a typical, if you will, day in your, in your current job?

Manuela Romero 38:21

Meetings. That's what I do all day. But what do I do? I think that if you talk to anyone on campus, you would say that when I'm in those meetings, I am always going to be the voice that raises of concerns of did we think of the first generation students here? You know, we're talking about implementing a process that is predominantly gonna have an impact on first generation students or low income students? You know, did you just realize that what you just did is is is, you know, is particularly hurtful to one population, you know, you're talking about, I'm going to be that voice in all of those meetings. And honestly, that's what's leading me to retirement is that it gets very tiring. When you are 00:39:00constantly that voice when you are constantly in a position of having to look at what is missing here, what are we not doing because no one else is doing it. And I wish that other people would, and I've told people this, you know, I don't want it to always be me, I want it to be other people. And I do fear I'm probably I'm the only person of color and the only person with my background in these high level administrative in a high level administrative positions. You know, so it right now, as I think about leaving, which I will be retiring in May or June of this academic year. You know, one of the things that I've said is who's going to do that in my absence, you know, how are you going to [word unclear] organization? What are the practices that you're going to put in place so that it doesn't stay with one person? And how are you going to make sure you have different voices at the table? Because as far as I know, there isn't a pool of people behind me that are ready to be in positions like this. You know, and that I would say, I would leave it for your final thoughts, you know, in terms of what this does to the institution, but most of the time I'm in meetings, and sitting in meetings, always with the [word unclear]. And I mean, it's not like I go in there and I say, okay, get ready, you know, what are you going to do? It's just what I do naturally, in what has become naturally for me has been both my training, my experience, and the the fact that this is the focus of the work that I do.

Troy Reeves 40:31

Thank you. So I want to ask, may I have time for one more question this time, as I said, I reserve the right to do a follow up interview.

Manuela Romero 40:41

Yeah.

Troy Reeves 40:41

And I think I'd really like to do one because I don't want to feel rushed.

Manuela Romero 40:45

Sure.

Troy Reeves 40:46

But I do want to talk a little bit about technology. You know, you've been in, in this career long enough, since you're, you know, getting ready to retire, that you've probably seen some changes in technology. And I'd like you to maybe talk about that, specifically, how changes in technology might have affected either for good or for ill your work.

Manuela Romero 41:13

So, you know, the heart is it can be both. So when we first went on that pandemic, you know, and all of our meetings, converted to teams, or zoom, or, you know, whatever, I was still spinning. I mean, especially in the beginning, you know, we were working, I don't know, you know, very long days, Monday through Sun- every day of the week set, including Saturdays and Sundays, because we just had to change the way we did our work very rapidly. But very early on, one of the things that I began to notice was that I was feeling less stress. And now there's, there's a lot of work out there in the popular media about this. 00:42:00And the reason was, I recognized that when I go into the office, I also sort of have to put on an armor, like, what's going to hit me today? How will I be disrespected today? How, you know, what kind of microaggressions am I going to have to deal with today? And I, you do this in your subconscious, you know, without recognizing that you're doing this, but because this is so much a part of your life, this is so much a part of what you experienced as a person of color on this campus. There's a relief to that, because I didn't necessarily have to wake up and do that, you know, because I was going to be in a meeting, that meant that I could turn it off and on in between. And especially if I had a break during meetings, that that that gave me respite gave me an opportunity to recharge in a way that I don't have when I go back to the office, and I've already been back in the office today happens to be a day that I'm here at home. But, you know, I started to go back to the office a couple of weeks ago. So, you know, that's certainly a way that technology changes how I might approach my work. Right? Of course, there are challenges. You know, it's, it's hard, especially when cameras are not on you, you don't know how people are receiving your message. So one of the other things that I learned as as, as I'm, especially with my leadership team, we all have cameras on and everybody needs to be ready to have cameras on when we're meeting. Because if we don't, then I'm not connecting, you know, I one of the ways that you recognize that while technology allows us to, to continue to interact with people, you also need to be able to see the person see the reaction interact with them in a way that technology with cameras off does not allow. So that's what I would say, I guess is what has changed my work. Um, other than that, I think it's created a whole bunch of opportunities that again, I'll go back to some of the, you know, we used to have these, there's two events that we hold on campus, one is a prospective student. So those are students that are coming here to find out more about our university. And the other one is an admitted student welcome. And those are some some opportunities that we create once students are admitted to come and really make sure that this is where they want to come. And you know, sign on the dotted line. Both of those were only in person events. That meant that they're only open to people that have money to come to travel here, right, who have parents who can come to them, with them. And and to learn more about the institution. What COVID did is we had to put these in virtual spaces and we had to make them high quality, because this was the only way that all students were going to decide where they might apply to where they might go to. And so 00:45:00this was one of the greatest things that I'd say we, this COVID allowed us to do, you know, was reach a broader audience, make it so that, you know, anybody with any kind of background, as long as they had access to an internet would be able to see what we had to offer. So I would say that's the way the positive, there's been a lot of positives by technology. Incredible, I think I would probably lean on the side of saying that there were more positives than negatives.

Troy Reeves 45:40

Excuse me. So maybe to follow up on that, since, to me, I'll speak for myself, there seems to be a push, really, starting August 9, they say that, you know, campus will look more like it did in fall of 2019, then fall of 2020. So I wonder if you wouldn't mind sort of looking in your crystal ball and, and talking about whether some of these positives will remain once there's this new normal, I guess, is what you know, returned to new normal, starting in August.

Manuela Romero 46:14

You know, one of the unfortunate things is that it allowed people to have some more flexibility, right, especially in I'm going to use our advisors again, and our career advisors as in our tutoring centers, right, it allowed the people that run those that are there, some flexibilities that are gonna erode. Because, you know, our transfer has said that we're an in person institution, and therefore those people that are in in person services, such as all most of the units that I oversee, need to return primarily, to an in-person, delievery[?], again. So I think that's difficult for people right now. We are in that transit. You know, you're interviewing me at a time when this is transition, you know, and where I see lots of positives, but yet I have to, I'm a part of leadership. And I'm going to implement something that I think could have more flexibilities than what we're going to offer. Because leadership, you know, is taking a different stand, then perhaps I would. Now, you asked me also what you know, earlier on, like, what, how do I describe what I do, one of the things that I say that I do is that I educate up. And as this transition is taking place, I'm not sure that I have usually it takes me a year or two to educate up for something right. We don't have that time to educate up, you know, I don't have that flexibility that time to allow a group of people that could work under some flexibilities. Allow those above me to understand how that's possible. I don't have enough data. I don't, you know, I mean, engineering, again, I don't have 00:48:00the data, I don't have anything to do that. So in the crystal ball, you know, I think that I think that we're gonna see, people are going to be less likely to take on positions or be in places that don't allow some flexibilities. And the hardest part is going to be for our institution to catch up with that, you know, so. And I think that that's the transition that we're in. How will UW- Madison and other institutes of higher ed, adapt to this new norm? I think it's going to take a lot of work. And I'm thankful I'm not going to be part of it, because I'm going to retire. So.

Troy Reeves 48:44

So

Manuela Romero 48:45

I don't know if that answered your question, though?

Troy Reeves 48:47

Yeah, I actually I think it it answered it, how I? Yeah, let's just say you answered it. I, I appreciated the answer to that. So Manuela, well, I would like to leave it here for today. But what I always like to do, you know, once your your juices get flowing, and you've been talking now to me for about 50 minutes, is there anything on your mind that you'd like to say about your time here that you might be afraid won't be on your mind when we do this follow up interview?

Manuela Romero 49:17

It's what I mentioned at the end. I don't I don't know that I wouldn't be but I don't want to forget, I want to talk about diverse perspectives in leadership. And I also want to talk about what that does, when when you're the only one what that does to that person, and what the university loses because of that. So I think that's really important. And I'm not sure that that. Oh, the other thing I don't want you to this is the other thing. I think this university is very black and white centered. And I mean that in a literal sense. There is almost nothing in between that, and because of that, because we're so focused on black and white, we don't see the nuances that are in between or around us. And so these other things hit us. And we're surprised by them. And I just think like, how can you be surprised? Y'all can only be surprised because your lens and your focus has been on black and white. So those are a couple of things. And those are some things that, that I would see those as part of the work that I do here also is to help this institution think beyond that.

Troy Reeves 50:34

Okay.

Manuela Romero 50:35

And, you know, I don't want to make it as if I'm the only one. There are others on this campus that do that, but I'm the only one in a leadership position that that is making. That is a person of color in these places. Now there's another one actually, there are two of us. And it's a difficult, it's a difficult and lonely spot to be in. So that's what I would say, I don't want to forget to talk 00:51:00about I don't think I will, but.

Troy Reeves 51:03

Well, I've written I've I've written those two things down to make sure that we touch on those next time. So I'm going to turn off the recorder here and then as I said, I'll chat with you for another minute or two. But this concludes the first oral history with Manuela Romero. Manuela thank you for your time today. I appreciate it.

Manuela Romero 51:24

Thank you

Troy Reeves 00:01

Okay, today is July 23, 2021. This is the follow up interview with Manuela Romero. This is a remote interview. So I am in my virtual office or remote office in the west side of Madison. I am Troy Reeves. And as we did before, Manuela for sound quality purposes, can we start by having you say your name and spell your last name?

Manuela Romero 00:24

Sure. Manuela R-O-M-E-R-O

Troy Reeves 00:27

Thank you. So as I said before, we before we turned on the recorder, I want to start with some of the remaining questions from the list. And then finish with a couple of things that you said you wanted to make sure that you had time to talk about. So the next question on the list was, were you involved in academic staff governance or groups?

Manuela Romero 00:56

Uh no.

Troy Reeves 00:57

Okay. So were there other groups, committees like campus wide committees that you were involved in during your time here?

Manuela Romero 01:07

Oh, yeah, many,

Troy Reeves 01:08

Okay. Is there one?

Manuela Romero 01:10

But not governance

Troy Reeves 01:10

Is there one or two that stand out that you wouldn't mind, you know, talking about talking about them, and then sort of what you felt your your contribution or role to them was.

Manuela Romero 01:22

So that's related with also with sharing, like in my final thoughts, and the other things I wanted to mention, I can bring that in. So there's a couple of committee I serve on. Now, during the pandemic, we have what's called the associate dean's learning, instruction continuation team and also the ssociate dean's group. And then I belong to another group called AAPL, which is the academic advising policy leaders. I was initially in that, but now I most of the time will send my the assistant dean that reports to me. So in all of those, those would be the groups that I would say. On other, you know, let me let me give you a little bit of a lesson, I actually continue my [word unclear] so that you have on because I think in those I have them but I served on another committee, which was the committee where we were looking when we were transitioning from one transcript to another. I'm mentioning this committees to you, because the thread you asked me what my contributions were there, and the thread would be the same. Okay. And across all of those committees, even though 00:54:00they were campus wide. I also served like on a withdrawal committee, when we first when we redid all the withdraw. This is about, you know, seven, eight years ago, I've served on the on the Crossroads committee, I chaired that for a while, I've also chaired some of these other committees, okay. And then, of course, I've served on various search and screen committees. And I've served also on a review of one of the deans. So various things that I've done, those are the ones that come to the top of my head. I tend to be both a big thinker and also a strategic and focused thinker. So my contribution to both of these is to be able to think through like the larger impact. And in that, usually I am the only voice to pick up on issues that would impact those that are underrepresented. But first generation low income, ethnically underrepresented, women in STEM disciplines. I'm usually the voice across all of these, that would be if you ask anybody there, that's probably what they would tell you is my contribution that they will remember the most. And because I am the voice, I will also tell you that I'm a strong advocate for that and I I won't let it go. I will speak up and speak strongly about how we're changing or what we might be doing would impact the populations. I'm also the voice for engineering, obviously. But we have a very LNS focus on this campus, which sometimes can have a not the best impact for for people that are not in LMS and we're the second largest college. So oftentimes I am that voice for engineering as well, because we're our own unique campus, or to speak within a larger campus, our students are different, I would say the most of the students across this campus. So those would be, you know, off the top of my head, what I would say, would be my contributions, I think that I can tell you about one particular example, if you sort of want to know about a contribution, once. This was kind of it kind of a 00:57:00lot of attention, but it was very reduced and focus in terms of the people that really knew about this, I feel that I have had an impact where I have not only been looking out for the populations that are underrepresented, but also looking out for the interests of the university. So let me give you a concrete example of what my voice would have done in something like that. A few years back when advisors are being trained to for SOAR. There's always a training, that happens for advisors, just to update them on various things. And this one particular training that happened was that a person who went and gave a training, and basically said, I have to identify the ethnicity and the gender for this, but maybe you can find a way not to, because it'll be very evident who this was. So it's a black male, because his gender and ethnicity will be relevant to the story that I want to tell you, okay. He gave a presentation, where he basic they, they had looked at some data, and this, I had seen this analysis, and I had already said that it was faulty on a number of reasons. And I had been very that's the other part is that I'm very quantitative, so oriented, so I can pick up flaws and data are how you are-- or also the positives, right? Of a data, and this particular analysis have was very faulty. And I had mentioned when I first heard the presentation, the number of ways that it was faulty, and how the way that the analysis had run could lead us to wrong conclusions. Anyway, this led to somebody giving a presentation at SOAR. That the recommendation was, and they were giving. So we used to have what was called In[?]SOAR, which is minority SOAR. So the people that were coming to the SOAR that the training is on a Tuesday, for Thursday, and Friday of SOAR was going to be the the students associated with the minority group. So the students that are in the summer program right before they start their freshman year, you know, posse, all of those kinds of programs. And the presentation, basically in there said that, according to the data, they were finding that minority students, if they took a math and science course, together, were not succeeding, as well as their white counterparts. And so they said, when these students come to SOAR, please do not let them take a math and science course. Some of our advisors came and told me about that, that presentation, and they said, what are we going to do? And I 01:00:00said, you ignore that presentation, we are in engineering. And we, our students have to take a math and science course. And that was a very faulty analysis. I said, if there was anything on there, I said, what they should have done in the analysis, which they did not do was taken to consideration the household the kind of training that a student might have had before they come here, and socio economic status. I said this is not a race thing. This is a socio economic thing. When students do not go to-- when they come unprepared. And they they don't have parents that can expose them to these ideas. And they're low income than they are not as not as likely to perform well, when you have this combination of courses. But I said, the key here is that they can perform equally as well, if you provide them with the safety network, and you identify where they need to be and you have a strong tutoring and support network. And that is where the analysis was faulty, because it should have applied to white males and white females. And in [word unclear], across the board, I was very upset by this. This was actually they had prepared a flowchart, which actually, they gave out and it was on our website publicly. And I, I, I was in touch with the Vice Provost of teaching and learning who was Steve Cramer at the time. And I brought it to his attention. And I said, something needs to be done about this. This is putting the university in danger, because I will tell you what I said, if I heard from my son, that you are giving him that advice, I would have a lawsuit on your steps tomorrow. I said in the reason I would have it, it's because you are giving him advice based on his race. And you are racially profiling him. And you are channeling him, and you are keeping him from moving forward in his degree, simply because of his race. Nothing else other than his race, because that is a conclusion you drew, this is the advice that you're giving, and you're giving it based on race. And that is not appropriate. I said, that is called discrimination. So for you will have and I said this stuff that's publicly available right now. It needs to come down. I said it needs to come down today. And he called the provost, you know, the provost was I forget her name. The Provost before this,

Troy Reeves 11:12

Yeah, I can't remember. I know, I know who you're saying. But I can't remember her name either.

Manuela Romero 11:17

Yes. Female, Provost. Given we haven't had one in a while anyways. So he called her. She, we had a conversation about what I was bringing up. And she agreed. I 01:03:00had, I have conversations with the Office of Undergraduate advising. And I said that this is I said, I said I, we were in an AAPL meeting, the academic advising policy leaders meeting and they gave a presentation there about what great advice they had gotten in that SOAR meeting. And they were going on and on about how ready they were to service the minority students that were coming in the next day because of this presentation. And that was one of the times that I have to tell you, I was very upset. I was shaking. And I said, this is a clear example of institutional discrimination. I said in institutional racism, and all of you did not see it. And I said, and I know that some of you sat there, and probably have questions, but you didn't ask them. And the reason you didn't ask them was because there was a black male presenting this data to you. And say, because there was a black male, you didn't. And he was talking about race, and how you advise students in this particular, you didn't feel that you could question him. I said, but what he had in what he presented was faulty. It was based on faulty data. I said, and yet, we have this whole advising experience that it's going to take place starting tomorrow, and you're gonna, you're basically going to attract a whole bunch of underrepresented minority students who should not be talked in this way, then led by faulty data. I said, and this is not appropriate. I said, when you go, and we have had that huge meeting where we had talked about how can we be supportive to in other communities? How can we be more open in that in that meeting in that community? And I said, you know, if you guys really are serious about being open, and being welcoming, then you should have spoken up on that day. I said, and until you're ready to speak up on that day, I don't want to have another conversation about openness and welcoming in this group. I fit into all of you here are ready to accept your role in that institutional discrimination in that institution. I said, that is coming down. I said, I spoke to the provost last night, it's coming down today. I said, and you all better go back and change your advising practices. I said, because I said if there is anyone there that comes to me, a parent that comes to me, I said, I would be the first to tell them to go find a lawyer. Because that is discrimination. I set out to go file a complaint.

Troy Reeves 14:19

Manuela thank you so much for sharing that. I do. You know, since you're since we're on this subject, I think it's appropriate or I'm going to move to some of your final thoughts first, and then depending on how this goes, maybe we'll talk 01:06:00about these other things. Because you talked about two things that you that that story illustrates, I think both things that you wanted to make sure got said. And so I wonder if you want to talk more about the first thing that you want to say which was you know what it means when you're the only one in the room like you were that day advocating for underrepresented people.

Manuela Romero 14:59

So what is your question, what is it? What is it? What

Troy Reeves 15:01

So last time you said, one of the things you want to talk about was, you know what it means when you're the only one in the room and how your words were, I think how difficult and lonely that is.

Manuela Romero 15:12

Well, for example, in that particular example, I had to rely on, I was very fortunate that I had, that I had worked with Steve Cramer before, and that he knew me and he respected my opinion. And so therefore, when I picked up the phone, and I talked to him about this, and I said, this is how urgent this is, this how how how much and how much peril the university is right now. He believed me, and he, he gave my voice, the weight that he needed to have at that particular instance. And be because I don't the lonely part comes from had I not known him. I don't know that those materials would have ever come down. I don't, I don't even know how some student would have been advised. You know, and the tracking that this institution would have been guilty of, I still don't know, if some students got tracked on that particular year, you know, or if those practices are still there, I think some of those practices are still there. And they came to light. So it's a lonely process, because institutional discrimination and institutional racism doesn't just impact white groups, right? It impacts racial minorities as well. Because we are educated under that system. We are a part of that system. And so when we find something that we think aligns with what we've been taught, so in this case, you know, you have data that aligns with your supposed data that aligns with something that you've been taught that is that racial minorities are not as good as in science, and engineering, and math, in science classes, and the data aligns with that. You don't question it even yourself. So why it's lonely for me is because I happen to have this [word unlear] characteristics, right. I was trained as a sociologist, as a quantitative sociologist, I'm a woman of color, I have strong leadership skills. I, I speak up and I don't let people quiet my voice. So it's 01:09:00lonely because I don't talk to a lot of people about this. You know, I can't go to a lot of people, I have to rely on some connections and make sure that those connections are strong. So that this move forward, you know, so that things get shut down when they need to be shut down, and that they get shut down immediately. Had I not had that? Once the you know that? She's a psychologist? Ah, I still can't remember her name. Anyways, she's a quantitative psycologist.

Troy Reeves 18:05

Mangelsdorf?

Manuela Romero 18:06

Yes, Mangelsdorf. Yes.

Troy Reeves 18:07

I looked it up while you were talking.

Manuela Romero 18:12

Mangelsdorf? Yes. When she, when she heard about this, she immediately understood, you know, and she understood the peril. And she just said, I cannot believe this is happening. And so you know, you never have consequences for some people, you know, but not the ones that one would think, you know, are the huge ones. Right? So, you know, so it is lonely, because you're just always the one noticing, you know, and there's And, here's the other thing. Had I not trained my staff had my staff not knowing that they could come to me with that, and that I actually would pay attention to them. I wouldn't of known, right. For more recent example, I'll give you one, I'll just this was the other one that I was thinking this just happened, okay. In the adviser notes system, this is a system that we have online where advisors can go in and write notes whenever they meet with the students. When you first log on to try to type a note for a student, a picture of a student will come up and then basic demographics will come up from that. In a recent testing environment, they were trying to this this just happened. I mean, a couple of months ago. They were testing the environment and something happened, where what they use for test was visible to everyone that went on line that particular day. Okay. One of our advisors took a screenshot of what they saw and sent it to me. And what they saw was in I'm not going to remember what it was now, but was a comedian whose name I just can't remember. I'll send it to you if you want. I think I have it somewhere. But it's said the name of like, a very common Mexican name like Abel Mexico, you know, let's just make that one up. Abel Mexico. And so it was like I said, How in this day and age, why are we using? Why are we making fun? Why are we taking it as a joke to use countries and actual people here, when we could use Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, whatever, as a testing environment. I said, and I wonder what the other 01:12:00pictures were a well, it turned out that there were some that were German that were equally as offensive. Some that will put women that were equally as offensive. So they existed in this testing environment and in our IT world, right. But guess who the person was it had to raise it? Me, right. So I immediately again, wrote the vice provost, who is now John Zumbrunnen. And I said, here's an example of something that happened today. I said, I am furious right now, I said, when when I said I, I don't even know how to express how furious I am right now that we're actually using these as in our testing environment. And how offensive I said not only to all of us that saw it today, but also to the people that are working in that environment and how much we are perpetuating these negative stereotypes about people and how degrading it is that we have to use it in this way. And you know, they they call the person that oversees to DoIT, the Chief Information Officer, you know, I had an apology by that afternoon, but but in my email, I said, I want to I want a campus apology, to go out to people because I want this campus to acknowledge that it did wrong. And so we did, we had a couple of apologies by the next morning. But it was me that noticed it, you know, one again, because it was my staff, they knew that they could come to me and gave me that example. And then I would shut it down. And so my staff depends on me to do that. So why is it that no other staff thinks to go to their boss, you know, so it's not like I can call my colleagues that are at my level, and say, hey, you know, what are we doing about this? Now, that day, I did, I actually did email to my colleagues and I said, I need you to raise it to the highest level, I need this to get attention today. And some of my colleagues did I at least two of them day. And that was because I, I have taken it as my personal mission to help educate them. And that's actually something I'm an educator, I mean, I started as a faculty member, I take and make it part of my mission to educate those that are around me. And, and I don't do it as an in your face kind of way is just that when the opportunity arises and if I can say something about these issues, I will say them, because I think that this is the way that we can educate others. So, there's no one else that I can go to that is in the same position as me that would readily understand this, without me having to give them a lot of history and a lot of background. I have to reach out to friends of mine that are in other institutions, where I, you know, I can cut to the chase and give an example. And I don't have to explain it. So I don't have anyone like that, that I can go to here. So one is, we, we only have a lot of opportunities to really learn from one another. Because when 01:15:00you're the only person raising these issues, you can also come up at conference confrontational or angry, right. And so the people that don't want to be some people will not want to be associated with you, because you're the angry woman, you know, and, you know, it will impact their careers and things of that sort. And so it can be. And furthermore, I had to make a choice. And I'm going to say that I made the choice. When I raised the issue about the advising practices. I knew that if I raised that as an issue, it was going to hurt my career prospects on this campus. In terms of if I wanted to do something else now, I made a choice that then that I was already on probably a downward slope of my career and I didn't really care. I thought that this was too much of an issue. And I I was willing to go for it. So this is what I mean when you have so few people that are in these positions you make you don't saying the word personal sacrifices sounds too. Sounds like too much but that's what it is. have, you know, you make sacrifices that others are never called to make.

Troy Reeves 25:07

And it seems to me to, you alluded to this, if you didn't just say outright to as you have the additional burden burden of being not only a person of color, but a woman and a person of color, which seems you know, I'm a white man. So it's, you know, I tried to to look from different perspectives, but it seems to me that that is, that's a double, a double negative, if you will, when you when you decide to speak up on these things.

Manuela Romero 25:36

Absolutely. And it is also in engineering, you know, I'm underrepresented, you know, even more so than another area, I have found actually that, like, the most open people and willing to change are engineers, you know, if you present the data to them, and if you have you presented a problem that needs to be fixed, oh, man, they're ready[?]. They're like, of course, we can fix those problems. It's a problem. You know, let's start thinking about inputs. Because we want this output, what are the inputs? So, I mean, there's, for all of their negative stereotypes, they're actually the most open to some of this. So, it's been other parts of campus, and I have found it actually more difficult to work with.

Troy Reeves 26:28

So I guess, in one sense, then you're at you were you ended up in the, the right place for what you want to do. But it sounds like it certainly has been a struggle.

Manuela Romero 26:38

Absolutely. And I think, you know, I would say that I have had significant impact, you know, this, I guess, goes into, you know, why I think people nominated me, I did not know that I was nominated until I heard right. But I think that the people that nominated me, some of them knew about some of my personal struggles, because they were some of the people that I went to when I needed advice about how to proceed. They were also some of the people that knew that, that I was trying to work slowly and incrementally on a lots of different things, you know, and they also knew about some of the work that I had done, not only in engineering, but outside of engineering. And the fact that while I have had an impact, sort of in changing our systems, it's also very, because of my personal identity, and my personal commitment is even though diversity isn't a part of my work, quote, unquote. I would say that the biggest impacts have been in that area, simply because I am one of the few voices there. So yes, absolutely. I, I think I ended up in a place that actually gives me more energy to continue to do the work that I do. Because while it's low, it's also very positive, people aren't as resistant. I would say, I think there's a sense in the social sciences that they already know about this, like, what could you possibly teach us? You know, whereas in engineering, it's like, we don't know anything about this. You know, we're looking to you for guidance. There's a real acceptance of, I don't know, where has another as I already know,

Troy Reeves 28:31

Yeah.

Manuela Romero 28:31

So,

Troy Reeves 28:32

That's a great point. And you think that might be the case, too, in a place like computer science, but then you give the example of DoIT. I mean, that could have just been one person in DoIT. But but anyway, it actually

Manuela Romero 28:43

It actually was one person in DoIT that did that. Did that no longer work there. But it was one person that created that, but it's still being used by a lot of people, you know, and no one ever thought to say, maybe we should stop using these examples. We don't have to use this.

Troy Reeves 29:01

Right. So to to get to one of the other things that you want to make sure that we discussed. Is the the other thing you want to say is and I think you said the university, it's very black and white centered. And you said black and white centered in a very literal sense. And I wonder if you wouldn't mind elaborating on on that for for the next answer.

Manuela Romero 29:28

Sure. I mean, I, I think that whenever we think of diversity, we think of Black. 01:21:00Very rarely have do we think of other groups outright. If you look at any positions of leadership on here, large scale leadership positions. You know, I don't I don't think it's any wonder that every single time that we have run the search for the Chief Diversity Officer, all the finalists have been black and male. No matter what committee you put together, because we are so black and white focused, we don't really think that we can legitimately have someone else in that position. Because no one else would understand the issue. I think that's especially true right now, I'm a firm believer of, you know, Black Lives Matters and everything else. But right now, I think any is any institution, there's almost like, a sense that you have, that if you really want to be diverse, the only voice you can bring to the table is that of an African American person of a Black person. And that's how this campus is really is. It's really [words unclear], you know, when I was working in, in this position early on, we had a meeting with the provost, because we were in this was DeLuca[?] then we were looking to create some transfer agreements, it was a number of reasons. Right. And and I, you know, had data then, and I'm, I made a presentation, and I, you know, and, and DeLuca had asked me, I'm sorry, let me go back. And I, before that, he had said, Why are we expanding to other parts of the state? Why aren't we concentrating on Milwaukee in these efforts? And so we went into that meeting, I went into that meeting, knowing that I was trying to sell something that was slightly different. It wasn't that it wasn't, including Milwaukee. It was that we were going beyond Milwaukee. And and so what I did is I presented data about the who were the who are the underrepresented populations in the rest of Wisconsin if you don't look at Milwaukee, you have Hmong, and you have Hispanics, both of the two largest representations. And we tend to ignore Green Bay. And we tend to ignore Racine. And we tend to ignore what we here by the Geneva lake that area be Devil's. I forget the name of the town and on there. Anyway, that area. And if you look at both areas, and oh, and we can ignore the 01:24:00La Crosse general area? If we look at that, what we see is that the largest underrepresented populations, if you look at the La Cross area, it's Hmong, and also an upper upper Wisconsin and Native American, we completly forget about them as a group, you know, and so, and the, these are the parts that I was talking about Racine and Green Bay, and they said, it'sreally Hispanic, but we never targeted it[?], you know, and, and the fact that I had to explain why not just Milwaukee, you know, was sort of, it's almost like code of every time you you're told, oh, let's work on some diversity efforts let's go to Milwaukee. It's called work for one particular race. And everybody here has been sort of accepting, oh, yeah, if we go to Milwaukee, we can say we did something, you know, because that's where the African American population is. And it's because when you say Milwaukee it has this meaning to it. That is [word unclear]. If you were to say Green Bay, nobody would think that you're talking about it hispanics. For example, if you were to Racine, nobody, but La Crosse that you're talking about Hmong. So you see what we're, we do a lot of things that are in this area, where we're just so focused in this black and white dichotomy, and we don't really see anything out in that. So in the IT example, had you have an example there of an African American, just think of what we could be calling it, right? Even a female, if even ever said Aunt Jemima, or something, and she would know that it would no longer exist? You know, we would have questioned it. But the other example, were, I didn't get to see them all. But I found out that there were 18 of them, and all 18 of them were problematic in one way or another. And there were several making fun of belittling, actually, it's not just making fun of and funny, it's belittling Mexicans and, and that culture, in particular Mexican. So and I think it's because we just have this dichotomy of who who would we be offending and we never think that these other groups and the practices and we have that, that those, those are equally as offensive to some of these other groups. I think that that's why this whole issue with Asians and the targeted you know, that happened in Atlanta hit a lot of institutions by surprise is because think of it I mean, Atlanta is also, very Black. Right? And you never think about the fact that that, you know, at first they were talking about how this time was not a crime of, of hate. And it's like, how could it not be? You know, any of those that knew that history and everything else? We're 01:27:00like, how can it not be? You're talking about a person who targeted Asian women? Because he had a sex habit? You know, those two things are tied together? How can that not be a hateful way? So we don't do that. Because we don't think outside of this dichotomy. And this is a problem in the US as well, not just but it's predominantly and anytime you leave the southwest. You you think you leave other groups out. I think the Southwest is very conscientious of Native Americans, Hispanics and other groups, but anytime you leave that area, you don't have that.

Troy Reeves 36:17

Thank you. Is there anything more you want to say about that before we.

Manuela Romero 36:22

No, that's it.

Troy Reeves 36:23

Okay. So I am going to give you space for final final thoughts. But there are a couple more questions here. And I think since you alluded to it, I want to start with the Academic Staff Award story first, you already said that you didn't know you were nominated. So maybe just a little bit about, you know, your thoughts and reactions when you heard and then anything you want to say about the reception itself.

Manuela Romero 36:47

You know, I actually, you know, I was humbled and very flattered that this had happened, especially so I think I was it was very moving to read what people had to say. And the interesting thing is that the letter, it's not practice for the letter to be shared with you your nomination letter. And I think that's that's a shame. You know, I mean, I had I asked for them. And that's why I got them. But the the head nominator, the person that was, you know, doing this, she told me that she needed to ask the other people if they were willing to share the letter. Now everyone was willing to share the letter. But the interesting thing about that is that, I mean, that's what what, what I found most moving. I was being nominated for this award. But you know, yes, you have a little snippet of why, and you have the nomination letter. But the real stories and the real impact are in the letters of support that people write for you. Right, and that that was certainly very moving. So that would be my reaction. And in some regards, it's unfortunate that some of this isn't shared until then, you know, when you get this award, but I so now let me just I mean, I was elated about that I would have been recognized in this way. I honestly thought that the reception was extremely well done, given that we had to do it virtual, I was completely surprised by the fact that we were going to get like this cheese board or this board from you know, I forget the place here in Madison, that made it more celebratory while you're at home, you know, in this process. The other 01:30:00part of it, but because it was virtual, my parents were able to watch it. And that was very moving to me to be able to share this moment with my parents that I you know, have only shared like, the bigger milestones on my life. Right? Had it been here in person, I don't think that they would have been able to be here. So that part, I just thought that for being a virtual event. I thought it was very well done. Extremely, very well done. It was very nice.

Troy Reeves 39:04

Great. Thank you. So to go back up to the the last official question. And that is, do you think about the relationship between faculty and staff? And if so, what are your thoughts?

Manuela Romero 39:17

I mean, everything that I do is faculty or staff. You know, I oversee a unit that is staff that has to serve faculty. So these things are always first and foremost, we tend to think I told you the story of how I got here, which is, you know, I'm a, I'm a staff and I made up positions for my husband, right? And every about every single time when people find out that my husband is also an academic here and that he's a faculty member, probably the next sentence out of their mouth when they say that, oh, that's how you ended up here. And I always have to say, no, that's how he ended up here? You know? So there's always this dichotomy, right? We we do when I first got that position, and when I mean, there was a faculty member who was the chair of sociology at the time, he had a welcome reception because my husband was getting a visiting position in his department. And he came up to me at his house, and he said, what's so great about you, that you were able, as a staff person to be able to bring on a faculty member? Because I want to know what's so great about you? So tell me, what's so wonderful about you and great that we created disposition? How do you answer that? You know what I mean. So there's always I mean, the whole issue between faculty and staff, it's always present, right? Always, always present. How can how can you not when you're in this position, I also think that I have a lot of buy in with faculty, because I have been a faculty. And so I think that I could speak their language and I know where they're coming from I, whenever I guide my staff in a particular direction is with that in mind, I always seek to minimize the burden that we're putting on them, I help our staff understand how, even though their faculty how even though their their days are demanding, and their work is demanding, try to help them understand how the role of a faculty member is also equally demanding and equally challenging and pulls you in a lot of different directions. And then it's very difficult for you to give your best 01:33:00when you're pulled in so many directions and what our role is as staff members, especially in students services, to help faculty that if we need, we meaning, the university needs them to contribute in a particular way, when it comes to recruitment and retention. If we tell them, especially in engineering, if we are able to give them a script, we're able to tell them exactly what we need, when to come. And all they have to do is show up and deliver, we get a lot more in return. So this dichotomy between faculty and staff is a strong one. I do the same thing with faculty. You know, I'm a part of the leadership council in the College of Engineering, which means, you know, as an Associate Dean, I sit in the meetings where when we meet with all of the chairs of the department, and I think I have done quite a bit since I've been here for all of our faculty and all of our chairs to recognize advising and student services as a profession. I think before I started working here, it wasn't really seen as a profession. That is, these are professionals that are trained to do this work in the same way that you learned how to do, you know, you took statics, because it was going to be impactful in the work that you're doing now. This is the same way that they take students student development theory that helps them do their work. You know, when they give you advice about something, it's not just because they think that this is great and wonderful, it's because they've been trained and are sharing that advice with you. So I think, you know, as opposed to trying to hide it and say, oh, no, you know, we're all equal, you know, we're, we all get a part of governance, I just dive right into it and acknowledge it, you know, and I say, let's figure out how we can work with this. We know that is the dichotomy. We know that faculty are, you know, I always tell people, if you want to know who's a faculty member, on this campus, and if you know, there's a faculty member coming up to you, I said, just walk if you're walking down the hall, for example, and walk in their path, and they will practically bump into you. Why? Because they're expecting you to move. They're not, and I'm at the end, this is a sociological experiment, right? Try it one of these days Troy. And, you know, I give this to my staff. And I say, that's the expectation, you know, the expectation is that we will move around them. And, you know, it's true for the most part. And so let's figure out how to work with that. You know, let's figure out how to work with that so that we can have some outcomes that we need, so that we can we can get them to help us to get the kind of work that we need done.

Troy Reeves 44:34

Manuela,

Manuela Romero 44:34

I don't know if that answered your question.

Troy Reeves 44:35

Yes. Yes, I think it answered it perfectly. So we have a few more, a few more minutes. So if you if you don't mind, I'd like to go just a touch off script, although you've mentioned your staff a lot. And I think there's probably reasons that you've mentioned your staff a lot, and I'd like you to talk. You don't have to call out specific people unless you want to but you know how you've cultivated a real relationship between you as an administrator, and the people who've worked for you over time. I don't necessarily mean a personal relationship, but you know, I'm talking about the professional relationship.

Manuela Romero 45:13

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's a mentorship relationship, I tell them that no matter how friendly we might be, or how I have a close relationship with the people that report directly to me, you know, I oversee a unit of more than 40 plus individuals. So there are people that report into, you know, the people that report directly to me about are about six, seven. And so, with that group, I see myself as developing them professionally, as well as helping them grow in a number of ways. I think I gave you an example of how I, you know, give examples of our own biases and how we treat that, I think, in the last interview that we did, but just little things, you know, for example, you know, my assistant Megan right how when I think about how I cultivate a relationship with. I'll give you an, in example, you know, I, she makes travel arrangements. Okay, when she came in, she made a particular travel arrangement for me. And it was in a downtown city. And I always go to conferences that are held in downtown cities. I don't remember the city this this time. But anyways, who put me in this hotel in this hotel was, I believe that two or three blocks, walking distance, right? And I came back, and I said, always put me in the hotel where the conference is located. And she said, well, that hotel was cheaper. And I said, I understand that. I said, but I am walking back on my own at night. I said, and even in the daytime, I said, I am a woman of color I'm my Latina in particular, do you know what happens to me in a city, when I walk, especially at night, I said, people don't see me as a professional, no matter what I'm wearing. I said, they think I'm a prostitute in a downtown. I'm a Latina. That's what they think. I said, in those two or three blocks, I said, I am subjected to some of the worst treatment you have ever seen. I said, I can no longer do that. And she said, I never thought about that. So that is the way when I was telling you about using what I know, and my education as examples and having 01:39:00opportunities for learning and teaching moments. That is when I want to do them. So I didn't come back and chastise her, I came back and provided her with a learning opportunity as to why I wanted her to do particular things in a certain way. Because I actually had asked to put me in the, in the hotel where the where the, or the conference was at. And you know, I don't check on these things. I didn't check until I got there, you know, and I asked the cab driver to take me to this place. And then I realized that I was like two or three blocks away from where the conference was being held. Right. And so, you know, I didn't come back and say, hey, you didn't do what I told you. Instead, I came back and I said, you know, this is what I want you to do. And this is why I asked you to do what I wanted you to do. And so we have that type of it. So how do I cultivate it? That's an example of how I cultivate how I work with people. They also, you know, ask them to grow. So for example, I asked my staff, you know, you let's think about, you know, we're going to have this conference on campus. It's all about revising, what can you contribute? You know, you guys think that these changes, they were awesome. Can you go and present about them there so that other people might learn from you. So things like that is probably the way that I cultivate, but they also see that I have a strong emphasis on on diversity. And they also know that I'm a strong advocate for them. That's the other part about it. I think that they know that I'm always advocating for for their interests. Even though I don't always get what I want for them. You know, flexibility and work right now would be one big one, right? They want to be able to continue to work and we've been told we all have to come back in person. So that would be one that's struggle. I haven't haven't won, and I probably won't win.

Troy Reeves 49:28

Yeah. Okay, so we have reached the moment where I asked you if there's anything else you'd like to say?

Manuela Romero 49:38

No, I think thank you for reminding me about the two points. I knew that if I didn't tell you about them last time that I would just, you know, sort of forget. I get into storytelling mode and then I forget, you know, but you've been very patient with me. So I appreciate that.

Troy Reeves 49:51

Well, this this has been great Manuela. Well, I do want to talk to you for a minute or two after I stopped the recording. But I would now like to conclude the oral history interview with Manuela Romero. Manuela, thank you for your time I appreciate it.

Manuela Romero 50:04

Thank you