Interview with John Street

Troy Reeves 0:01

All right, today is March 15, 2018. This is an interview for academic staff award winners oral history project. We're here at the Academic Staff Institute at Union South. My name is Troy Reeves with the UW-Madison Oral History Program. John, I'm going to shut this door, and while I'm doing-- before I do that, can you, for sound quality, say your name and spell your last name?

John Street 0:24

John Street, S-T-R-E-E-T.

Troy Reeves 0:27

Okay, I'm going to shut this door and then we'll get going.

John Street 0:29

Okay. So are you a historian?

Troy Reeves 0:36

I am, I have two degrees in history. I don't have a PhD. I have a Bachelor's and a Master's. So John, as I said, I sent you a list of questions. We're just gonna sort of systematically go through those. So the first question was, what brought you to UW-Madison?

John Street 0:55

Well, I actually was a teacher, a high school social studies teacher. And our boys, our older boy especially, was reaching the age where he really needed high-powered education. He's one of these kids who just devoured learning. And we were in Montana, and really the best math they had was at the time was algebra two. So he's since gone on to become an engineer at SpaceX. So he needed, he needed the kind of advanced science and math that Madison provided. At that time, the schools I thought were excellent. He went to Madison West. And we had done a lot of research about good places to raise families. And this always came up in the list. So we came here. I started in grad school, for my PhD, and the boys settled into school and been here ever since.

Troy Reeves 2:07

Great, thank you. So you-- I think you may have alluded to this, saying that you were a teacher in Montana, but I was going to ask directly [?] sort of what factors led to your work or research interests?

John Street 2:21

Well, I, I love teaching. I got a PhD in what is called by most people educational administration, here they call it educational leadership and policy analysis. But so I was leaving a grad class, this is how long ago it was, got off the elevator. And right in front of the elevators, huge bulletin board. And in those days, they post the job listings, paper on the bulletin board, the HR department had these huge binders that you would go through. So right in the middle of the board, was a job listing for in the medical school, which I hadn't considered it up to that point. And so I looked into it and ended up getting a job in anesthesiology as a medical educator, which is a field that's growing rather rapidly at this point, then and still. They had a simulation lab, which I was fascinated with. A very sophisticated lab, small but very sophisticated. And I had great hopes that I could get really involved with that because it fascinated me. But despite the, the sophistication of the lab, it wasn't used. And the primary reason for that was that the--the faculty member in charge of resident education didn't want to pull residents out of clinical, clinical work. So it was very frustrating. I was there about five and a half years and then an opportunity came in my-- open for my present position with obstetrics and gynecology. So the, the technical title of my position is instructional program manager. And in my position, I work with medical student curriculum, residency curriculum, and in this particular position, the most appealing part of the offer was that they were starting a simulation curriculum from the ground up, which was just perfect for me. So I took the position, and Meriter Hospital was very interested in this whole process as well. And they gave our department space, an old neonatal intensive care unit, which they provided to us and also remodeled. So we had our own space in control of it. We-- Meriter nursing uses it as well. But it was just a wonderful opportunity. And we rapidly began developing curriculum for it. In fact, today was one of our biggest labs of the year. I just got done with, an hour before I got here. I was up late last night working on it, and then happened today from nine to twelve. So it's, it's very fulfilling, simulation, because it's so practical, we use the actual instruments, surgical instruments, go through procedures, we use homemade mockups. But they're really effective. And to see the residents respond to the wealth of knowledge that faculty share. It's, it's, you can't really, it's like teaching directly, although I'm just supporting the teaching, I'm not actually teaching, but you get the same kind of fulfillment, knowing that, you know, you are contributing to somebody's professional development. So it's, I think it's an extremely effective way of teaching and very fulfilling.

Troy Reeves 7:13

So John, when someone asks, and I'm sure they do, to sort of describe or, you know, tell them what you do, how do you do that?

John Street 7:25

Well, I do a variety of things. The simulation labs are, are in a lot of ways, like being a science high school teacher. You've got to arrange the lab, the curriculum, you got to coordinate. So a little different in this regard, you have to coordinate faculty and support people, you have to line up equipment. And then you have to put it all together and make sure that it's ready to go for the teaching. And then, of course, the hard part is putting it all away, and I'm sure any science teacher can relate to that. But the other aspects of the job, which are-- take up more of my time are developing evaluation for medical students and resident, residency performance. So I got an opportunity to really design an entire evaluation system for residents. And then, you know, tracking performance of faculty, residents and the program as a whole, you know, developing metrics and then tracking those over the years. So it's very satisfying for me, lot of independent work. It's a field that, like I mentioned earlier, that is really growing and becoming much more professionalized in in the medical field. Rather than, you know, in the past. Doctors are very bright people, and oftentimes creative, coming up with curriculum based on their experience and the needs they see in their residents or medical students. You may have people with a background in education, helping to support that. So...

Troy Reeves 9:37

So, John, I'll just-- go ahead.

John Street 9:39

I was just going to say for somebody, I was reading the other day about the number of PhDs produced by the University. I don't know what hard sciences are like in terms of job openings, but in the social sciences, there's I think there's far too many people graduating with degrees that they probably will never be able to use. And medical education, for people in social sciences, I think it's a it's a really smart area to consider for job opportunities. Simulation is, is becoming huge in medical education from the very primitive homemade kind of models, which are very effective, to very expensive, you know, industry produced models, which I don't think are very cost effective. But that's just my personal opinion.

Troy Reeves 10:51

So, I think you touched on some aspects of this, but I want to ask this question directly. Understanding that there's probably never a typical day, but what sort of things might make up a typical day?

John Street 11:05

Wow. Well, a typical day. These last couple of days have been typical for a simulation lab day, in terms of oftentimes having to stay late to make sure things are ready, then showing up early the next day, making sure things are in place, and then dealing with the unexpected, like OR nurse who couldn't arrive at the simulation to teach her station because of demands, surgical demands. These kinds of things happen a lot in, in medical education, because obviously patients come first. So there's, there's oftentimes, you know, dealing with the unexpected, especially when it comes to simulation labs. On other days when there aren't labs, you know, and a lot of it has to do with responding to correspondence, and requests for information, and tracking various metrics for performance of the residency program and residents individually. What I like about it is that I have complete control over my time, virtually. Unless, you know, I'm assigned to project but in my years in the position, I've really often defined what projects I'm going to work on and how they're going to be structured. So I've really enjoyed that. Which by the way, I plan to retire June 30th. So, so this was the last lab of this sort that I'll be doing. Which is kind of a mixed, I view it with mixed feelings. It's a ton of work, but then you get the fulfillment of seeing lights go off. It's a very interesting thing, the, the faculty member who led it, and he's led this particular lab for eight years now, you know, he confronts the thing that all teachers confront: and why isn't this concept coming through? You know, and, and these are extremely bright people. But you're talking about complex procedures. You know, a simple step in the procedure, but for some reason, he notices that many residents just don't get it until they've had more experience themselves in the OR, and oftentimes they've repeated this particular lab. And then we have one-- last year one resident comment that that very fact. It's the repetition that finally drums the realization into your head, you go "ah!" You know, we've all had that, but sometimes it just takes time and repetition for the, the learning to happen. Patience, really.

Troy Reeves 14:52

How has, or how have, changes in technology over the last, you know, however many years you've been doing this, has changed your work?

John Street 15:04

Well, in a lot of ways, it's gotten much easier, like I was mentioning with the job descriptions. You go from hardcopy to electronic, that makes it much more convenient, but it also increases your workload because it's much easier for people to request work from you. So it's, it's a mixed bag in terms of things are so much easier to research and just a wealth of information immediately available. But then you look at your email inbox, and it's just dozens and dozens of emails, some just completely useless. But still, you got to deal with them. In terms of simulation, simulation's at a point, at a plateau, as far as I'm concerned, because the simulations-- they can produce extremely expensive, and increasingly realistic simulation. But oftentimes, it doesn't overcome the limitations of that technology. If there's a hiccup in the software... we actually succumbed to what a lot of simulation labs did, and bought some expensive technology initially. And what happens is only one person can use it at a time. If it hiccups, you start from square one, you delay the training, it's an inconvenience, it's aggravating. So we have several simulations that are primitive by-- compared to the technology available, but much more effective. We can get several residents working at one time. So, there's a fascination with technology, especially in simulation, that's really a mirage. Until the virtual reality technology can get, and it's really improving rapidly, but until it can get to the point where it's immersive, and you get some haptic feedback, and the, the patient, the procedure, whatever is fully realistic, that's gonna that's going to be a real boon for medical training, there's just no substitute for that. But it's nowhere near that right now. One, one aspect of technology that I'm involved with is robotic surgery, which is really, really fascinating. And some people think that somehow it's automatic, but what happens is, a surgeon sits at a console that has a 3-D screen. So they just get this fantastic view of the patient. So they're removed, they might be 10 feet away from the patient, and they have these very minute controls, which control the robotic arms. I've got to use one once in a simulation, incredibly fine motor movements, just spectacular. So that's an aspect of medical technology that I think is, is medical education, because there's a simulation component to it that we're trying to get residents trained in. There are-- so that's one aspect of medical education, I think is is wonderful.

Troy Reeves 19:16

So how are you.... if you wouldn't mind sort of explain for, particularly for this robotic surgery, so how are how are you as an educator involved in this? I'm assuming in the simulation part of it.

John Street 19:30

Well, a lot of it's logistical problems in terms of-- because there are limitations on the availability of the simulator. The robot itself is extremely expensive. And they want to use it whenever possible for surgery because it offers so many benefits to the patient. It's laparoscopic, which means that it's not open. It's-- there are ports put in the abdomen, and then the instruments are placed in the ports. So the advantage is that the healing is much quicker because the, there's just much smaller wound to conduct it. So it's, the instruments are in, there's a camera in and then the person is either looking at a screen and operating thusly, or they're, in the robotic case, they're looking in the viewer, 3-D viewer. So, the problem we're having is finding time when the simulator's available, and the residents are available to work on it. So it's a logistical problem more than anything else. And also defining what exactly-- what the curriculum will consist of, because there's different paths that you can follow different requirements. So.

Troy Reeves 21:05

So John, I want to shift now to your involvement in any, if any, in academic staff governance or groups. So the first question is, have you been involved in any of that?

John Street 21:16

No, not really. I was briefly as a student. But you definitely become aware real quickly, of the complexity of even the simplest of solutions. You just don't go, "well, let's just do this." There's just too many stakeholders in virtually everything, too, for simple solutions.

Troy Reeves 21:47

Okay. So I do want to back up, one more thing about work. And that's work-life balance. So, I give sort of me as an example, I work at an archive, and I work nine to five and I tried very hard to not work from 5:01 to 8:59. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So I'm wondering, you know, during your time here, how would you see your work-life balance?

John Street 22:17

Personally, I thought it has been wonderful. Academic staff life for me and I think, for most people, is very flexible. It's much like, you know, university faculty, in terms of determining your own hours, it depends on your particular position. Because, obviously, depending on the department and expectations, you know, you're expected to be certain places certain times, but I haven't had that kind of nine to five structure. I imposed my own structure. But I've always had the flexibility to, to adjust it, you know, sometimes my wife's got something going on, or when the boys were in school, they had something going on, I could, you know, I could be there for it. And then, you know, when the need arises, you end up working late, you know, to require-- to finish whatever's on the burner at the moment. But yeah, I found it very, very rewarding in terms of the effect of my work. And then the flexibility, work-life balance, I thought, couldn't ask for a better situation.

Troy Reeves 24:06

John, in your position, have you had interaction with faculty? So I wonder if you have because of that, or just in general, thought about the relationship between faculty and staff?

John Street 24:23

Well, I was the first person in my position in our department, our department has grown rapidly in the 11 years I've been there. I mean, just tremendously. So it was a new idea when I first arrived. And the sim lab was a brand new thing as well. But I've always found the faculty very cooperative. And it's, it's a sometimes shocking to me as a teacher. I would have a test, draw up a test that, like a final exam for a course and I would pass it out. And sometimes I would wonder at the fact that they're all doing it. They're all going to take this test. They're human beings, they could stand up and walk out is [?]. And with faculty, I'll approach them via email or in person. And these are people who, you know, this particular specialty, obstetrics and gynecology... there are very traumatic things that happen in birth. There's surgical calamities, there's, there's all kinds of really profound emotional experiences, these people go through. And, I've always found them very receptive to my request, you know, and typically polite and, you know, if they can't do it, they can't do it, but patient and willing to consider teaching and, you know, extra work basically. So, yeah, I haven't... I can't off the top of my head, I can think of a really negative experience I've had with faculty in the medical school.

Troy Reeves 26:25

Okay. So you weren't... I don't... well, I'll ask directly. Were you here in Madison on September 11th, 2001?

John Street 26:41

I was, actually and I had just been in the job and anesthesiology for five or six months. And-- no, no, it was less than that, it was four months. And I was walking through the lobby, then anesthesiology is in UW Hospital, my current position we're in Meriter Hospital. And I saw all these people gathered around the TV, looking up at this TV mounted, and it was a real shock. And at this point, only one building had been struck. And then I went up to my desk, and then before too long, I hear that the second building's been struck. It was, it was really shocking, of course.

Troy Reeves 27:47

Do you remember the, anything in the immediate aftermath? Either for your work or for... or personally?

John Street 28:03

Nothing for work. I mean, of course, everybody's talking at work about it. Just the, the lack of comprehension about what really happened.

Troy Reeves 28:23

Okay.

John Street 28:23

And just kind of dealing with the shock of it.

Troy Reeves 28:31

So, just a couple more things. So, I'd like to get a little bit of the story behind the getting this academic staff award. So first off, did you know you were nominated?

John Street 28:43

Yeah, I did. The person who was coordinating it stopped me in the hall and told me about it. I thought "oh, that's a waste of time." I really did. But then I found out there was money associated with it, and they go well, people are willing to put-- because there's so much work goes into these things. You know, the letters, and the gathering of materials and everything else. It's kind of like writing a grant. Well, good luck. And that's, that's actually a large part of it, as far as I'm concerned: luck. Luck, and there's a certain degree of politics involved in any kind of award giving. So I'm not overly impressed. I mean, I read the other people's accomplishments. I thought, now these people deserve awards. You know, a lot of what was in hard sciences. Which I admire people who can achieve in that, that field. And I think I'm being completely realistic about this. I'm not being... it's not false modesty, I just, I just don't think what I did compares to some of the achievements of these other folks.

Troy Reeves 30:28

What did you think about the, the reception?

John Street 30:30

Oh, I thought that that whole thing was wonderful. Thought it was really well done. I mean, the Chancellor was there. I just thought it was a great, great venue, and just very pleasing. It wasn't, it wasn't too long, it was just right. Brought family and friends and they enjoyed themselves. So yeah, it was a good, good event.

Troy Reeves 31:04

So, before making sure you have the last word I want to talk-- and it sounds like strictly apropos to you, since you'll be retiring on June 30, and it's a, it's a legacy question. It has two parts to it, which is, you know, what do you feel you'll be remembered for? And is that what you want to be remembered for?

John Street 31:20

You know, I don't, I don't care if I'm remembered, I really don't. You walk around campus, we were talking about this at an administrative meeting yesterday, we have an award that's given to residents for compassionate patient care. People who really are outstanding. And so this was this award was named the blank-blank Anderson award. A physician, long ago in the department, nobody knew who it was. Nobody knew him, or really anything about him. So I don't, I don't want to have my name on a plaque and 20 years from now people go, "who was that?" and really, nobody cares. You know, the important thing is, what the award embodies, and that... to me anyway. So, you know, I expect that in one or two years, people go, "who is that guy that... remember, he used to run the sim lab. And he did some other stuff." That's what I expect. So I mean, really the, the legacy, if there is one is what kind of impact have you had on people? Same thing with teaching, you know. Did you try your hardest to make a difference with people? Did you help them? Did you support them? And if you did, that's good. That's what, that's what you're meant to do. So I really don't... I don't intend to go to any kind of, be a part of any ceremony where they stand up and go, you know, like, I'm not going to resident graduation this year, because I don't want to be... I don't want to have "oh, and by the way, we want to thank them" and then they have two or three people come up, I just don't see the... would be uncomfortable. Really doesn't mean a whole lot. The people who care will-- I haven't announced it publicly yet. You know, the department knows, will, you know, talk to me in [word unclear] or interaction, but I don't... the legacy thing is not, just not important to me.

Troy Reeves 33:56

So is there anything else you--

John Street 33:58

I'll do, I will add one thing.

Troy Reeves 34:00

Sure.

John Street 34:01

I hope that the simulation program continues to be strong and goes forward. But my name doesn't have to be associated with it. I just think it's a valuable part of the curriculum, and it would be a shame if it was compromised in the future.

Troy Reeves 34:27

John, is there anything else you'd like to say either about your time working here or about your time going to grad school here before we wrap up?

John Street 34:38

Well, this is not politically correct, but I've really enjoyed my time in grad school for me, and it's kind of related to something we said before the interview started in terms of being a non-traditional student. I think you, you gain a lot of perspective and you can really appreciate the opportunity to, to just focus on learning. I think most people are much better suited for graduate school when they're a little bit older, as opposed to right out of undergrad, when they have a little bit of life experience to really appreciate what they're doing. So I really enjoyed grad school I, I love writing. So I had plenty of opportunity for that. The thing that's difficult and the part that's politically incorrect, is that the academic world seems to... people are trying to make a name for themselves and concepts are diced, sliced increasingly small increments to where they become, in my mind, meaningless. And these things, these new concepts are imposed on the student body and, and society. And I think it's counterproductive. I think, rather than, than increasing society's humanity and productivity and success, it compromises it by, by pitting increasingly smaller elements of society against others. And I think the academic world, social studies I'm talking about particularly, is, it's kind of in a downward spiral. I think this is reflected in public schools as well. So I'm a little pessimistic. That said, people can make their own life in, in in the graduate education, focusing on what they want to do, you know, building their skills, and then going out and finding a position where they can apply those skills to the benefit of others. So I don't think... I think the general trend is not positive. But I think despite that people can build a good life through graduate education, you know.

Troy Reeves 37:53

All right. Well, John, I want to thank you for the time you gave me today. I appreciate it. This concludes the oral history with John Street.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai