Interview with Theodore Zillman - Tape 2

Theodore Zillman (#112) Transcript TZ: In order to meet the expenses of the doctor's bill, and the important charges the hospital would make for the institution's treatment that his wife, during her pregnancy last month, and certainly at the time of birth. Now those weren't the only kind of cases that financial assistance would be given from the Department of Veterans Affairs. DT: What were some of the others? TZ: Well, I can recall the plight of the fellow who already had two or three children by the time he enrolled as a veteran, and just couldn't possibly subsist on the money that Uncle Sam was paying him. And so these cases were considered, and most of the time the veteran would be able to get a supplement to his monthly income under the federal GI Bill program. And these additional subsistence grants were ever so helpful. Those were the common types of things the Department of Veterans Affairs would a assist a student veteran with meeting financially. Although they weren't the only things. If I remember back, there were cases where the Department of Veterans Affairs even assisted a veteran who had an obligation to a widowed mother who had no other source of income than a minor social security check-- she had that much. And they through their assistance enabled many a 00:01:00 person to get through to a degree and a worthwhile job after college. DT: I'm wondering how you feel about the possibility that perhaps a number of students came to the university because of some of this funding that was then made available for veterans who perhaps otherwise might not have. TZ: Oh, their names were legion, I'm sure. And I've always credited the GI Bill thrust with the tremendous enrollment in colleges and universities and institutions of higher learning that we subsequently saw after the conclusion of World War II. It was a snowball effect. Many of the young people came to us, came from families where no one in the history of that family had never gone any higher than four years of high school, and no one had ever thought that they were financially capable of handling it, or had the motivation to do it. But when the folks 00:02:00 that stayed back at home saw how well the veteran had done, with his BA or BS degree, and what a beautiful job he now had, and he was no longer driving the truck, or and doing some other work that the rest of the family, for years, had been doing, they themselves then tried to become students at the university level. And I that to this was a boon for the universities in mushrooming up their enrollment, but it also had a decided social effect on the whole concept of what a university education ought to be. DT: Would you explain that a little? TZ: Yes. I think what I've got in mind, if I can say it well, it put increasing emphasis on the university degree as a means to a bigger and better paycheck, and a more agreeable way of making a living. And this-- well, is this enough on this, or do you get the thing I'm trying to convey? DT: Yes, I think so. TZ: And when the veteran came back, and the rest of the sisters and brothers and 00:03:00 uncles and cousins and aunts saw what had happened to GI Joe, who now had a lovely job with a well-recognized, reputable firm and excellent remuneration in the eyes of the rest of the family, then the emphasis was on getting some of the younger members, who hadn't the GI Bill and that advantage, but saving up to send them to the universities. Well then, to get back, the other leg of what I was trying to say, was that colleges then began, and universities began to sell themselves as places to train for a better paid job and a more happy way of securing the good things in life. Meaning the Chevrolet car in the garage, and the membership in the country club, and the lovely summer vacation, and so on. And we forgot all about the old-- well, I'm exaggerating, but much of the emphasis of the university education being a way to enrich one's life in the intangible things of life-- learning to appreciate beauty, and 00:04:00 understanding of the way man has to live with with himself and his fellow human being, and his responsibility to the society of which he was a part, and making it a responsibility of the educated man to be concerned about his fellow human being and his community. These kind of dropped off in importance. Certainly in the eyes of this generation of youngsters, who had not any background of what a college education is for, thanks to what the older people in the family taught them, or let them know about it. DT: So you really date this kind of shift in emphasis from the immediate post-war period. TZ: Yes. Plus Sputnik. Those two things. And the scare that the country got when Russians got up into the air, and how they were going to get first to Mars, and so on. That was what caused Uncle Sam to throw a lot more money into education. We had to have the technicians, and again it was the emphasis on the technicians, not on education for a fuller, happier, richer life of community service. And we need somebody to be sure that the proper formulas are arrived at in the physics laboratory and in the chemistry laboratory in order to keep us ahead of the Russians, so they wouldn't blow us up before we blew them up. DT: Now, I'm aware that the return of the veterans was both quite sudden, and that the 00:05:00 enrollment at the University in the fall of 1945 rose dramatically. And this, quite naturally, put a strain on the university in many areas. One of the first, I suppose, being the question of housing. And one of the interesting developments, in my opinion, was Badger Village. Can you tell me anything about how this was thought up, and how it worked? TZ: Yeah. Badger Village was the housing complex put together during World War II to take care of the munitions workers that were then employed across the road in the Badger Ordinance Works. And there, I think, the chief thing they did was to make power for the war effort. Now when the war was suddenly at an end, understandably the need for more and more power was reduced drastically. And so Uncle Sam found itself with these Badger Village lean-tos-- or I shouldn't say lean-tos. It was not the best of housing, as you can imagine, and put up for the emergency of the war years. But these were 00:06:00 suddenly now vacant. And the university discovered this, or knew this, and got together with the federal people, and the people in charge of that operation up there. And I think it was on the basis of the contract between Olin Mathieson Powder Company, for example, and Uncle Sam. And so the university then-- whichever way it went, either through Olin Mathieson or through Uncle Sam directly-- got a hold of those apartments and trailers. Most of it was trailer-type housing. And rented it out from Olin Mathieson or the federal government, and in turn rented to the students who had children, because that was our crying need, to take care of the more-than-two sized family among our student population. And so I think at high tide there must have been at least 00:07:00 700 to 800 student families living up there, a good three-quarters of an hour run, if not more, from Madison up highway 12, is it? And then university then hired a fleet of buses to service these people, bring them into classes in the morning, and take them back during the daytime, and especially after 4 o'clock when the last classes were over. I think this was the high tide of the return home of those people. Now as I say, it wasn't the best of housing. But to the veteran, when he saw the price to himself and the cost to himself of that type of facility as compared to the exorbitant rates that were being charged, because of the excess demand for housing here in Madison, in the hands of private landlords, it was a wonderful deal for him. And he was tickled to death to go on up there and put up with the inconvenience of the commuting back and forth. It got pretty tough on him, and university attendance, as you can understand, during the bitter winter months. More than one bus was late trying to negotiate Springfield Hill, which was the big stumbling block in the icy, stormy, heavy snow weather. But by and large, it was a beautiful solution for the veteran, especially he who had one or more children to look after, as 00:08:00 well as his wife. Along the same line, it comes to me right now, if you let me continue for a minute, somewhere I saw recently how many Quonset huts were put up on campus to expand classroom space because of the veterans. And the person that told me this in the last couple of months was a local architect, Joe Weiler. And you could get the exact information from him if it was ever needed. Not that our own university records must not have it someplace. I think he told me there was something like 68 Quonset hut type of buildings put up on campus. And the last one of them wasn't taken down, so he said, until just one or two years ago. And they were spotted all over the campus. They had a good dozen of them, I believe, on the lower campus here, this area between the Historical Society building and the and the new university library. And classes were 00:09:00 assigned. Generally the classes in such things as history and social studies, that didn't require laboratory equipment to teach the student enrolled in the course. And then they were on Bascom Hill, where now is the Commerce Building, and sandwiched in, here and there, up and down Ag Mall, and on that street that's back of the hospital. What is that called? DT: Linden? TZ: Linden, yes. Several of them faced Linden, and were located on Linden. So that's worthy of note. DT: You said that the University had instituted this Office of Veterans Affairs. I'm assuming that you were the first director. Is that correct? What kind of staff did you have? TZ: We had another part-time professor and two typists, two secretaries. And that was about 00:10:00 it for the years that I was connected with it. DT: Well, how long were you connected with it? TZ: Well, let's see. '45 until, I think it must have been for the next three or four years, until I became acting Dean of Men. And as the high tide of veterans was reached and started to subside-- and I think high tide of veterans was in the fall registration of 1946. And if my memory serves me, our high tide in numbers was 18,600 veterans on the campus. Don't shoot me if I'm wrong on that, but it somehow sticks with me that we had that happen. Now one of the things, of course, in the early days that caused this-- and this is, in fact, part of the operation of the Office of Veterans Affairs in one sense, although really, they were under the control of the university business office, A.W. Peterson. And that was a group of half a dozen personnel that were located in frame house on Langdon Street where the library now is. And these were the people that took care of ministering to the needs for books and supplies for the 00:11:00 veteran. In the early days, the books were actually bought by the university and turned over to the individual veteran, so that there had to be somebody to look after that room, and that's John. That didn't continue for more than two or three years at most, and then the money was given to the veteran and he was permitted to buy his own books. But in the early days a man by the name of John Cameron was in charge of that office. He was a GI himself. He was one of these people on Public Law 16. While he was in service he'd gotten-- I forgot what the story was. He got sick in some way, and his health was so injured that Uncle Sam felt he was entitled to some kind of a pension. So he was on a pension there, in this office. John must have been a man, when I knew him in those days, in his mid-50s, already. Incidentally, he's got a son here town who's a practicing dentist, and every once in a while, I see his son, because his son is a thespian of sorts, and he plays roles in the Madison Theater Guild, and so on. But John was 00:12:00 an excellent man for the purpose. He had a clipped, short type of doing business. And with most of the veterans, in those days they were fresh from uniform, and fresh from several years in uniform. So what the first sergeant said should been done, that was good enough for them. That was the kind of relationship that John had with these youngsters. And it saved an awful lot of time and an awful lot of university service that might have had to have been, devoted to those people, with their arguments about they should have had three books instead of two, and so on, and so forth. So I used to be the recipient of the unhappiness of veterans with the operation there in that particular office. But after spending time-- and it always took a lot of time-- 00:13:00 explaining why it was that this had to be done and that had to be done, consider the thing from the university's point of view, John Cameron's point of view, and after all, fellows, it's a lot better than they treated you in the army. I had numbers of situations like this. Including one that I'll never forget, because I thought I was going to come out with my life, I'd be lucky. I was asked to come to a gripe session. And I'll never forget, it was in the auditorium in the Education Building. That is in those days, it was still the College of Engineering was largely housed there. And so it was given to me by the officers of a veterans club on campus that I was to come and have some words with them. I walked in there, not expecting any turmoil of any kind, but ran into three, or four, or a half a dozen, fellows who were typical then of the students that we got to know a whole lot better back in '65, '66, and 00:14:00 '67, some years later. And these were-- I'm prejudiced, I suppose. But they were semi-paranoid kids that wanted to find fault and somebody to listen to them, and strike out against things, and physically strike out. Because they were unhappy with the program they'd entered into here. Found out that they weren't able to do the work and were slowly becoming aware of the fact that they just weren't sharp enough to keep up with the class in this, that, or the other subject. And were wondering whether they ever should have got into it in the first place. Well, thanks to the fact that I did have an excellent reputation with most of the people there, for the reason that I was privileged to be the one who talked to every fellow who was in need, who was a veteran. And there were enough of these, there, then, to get me out of the place alive. I'm exaggerating to make the point, of course, but it was a never to be forgotten experience. And incidentally on this very point, here, within the last several weeks, I went to the opera in Milwaukee. And I was sitting with Professor Merle Curti and his wife, and Professor Glenn Trewartha and his wife. And down here, closer to the aisle, a fellow leaned over 00:15:00 like this and looked at me very fixedly. And I looked and I thought, gee, he looks familiar, but I can't place just who he is, or how I know him. I looked away, and then when I looked back he was still staring at me. And with that he got up and came over and he said, you don't remember me, Dean Zillman, do you? And I said, gee, I know your face, but I can't tell you who you are or where we knew each other. He said, I was one of the veterans who came back, and you kept me alive with the loans that you made. And I'd never have gotten through, and so on, and so on, and so on. Well, now he's a district circuit judge right there in Milwaukee, and doing fine. And he introduced me to his wife. And this is typical of things that have happened to me over the years. But this is within the last three weeks that this occurred, which is one of the very great rewards of the kind of work I was doing with those veterans. Because many of them would be nice enough to write me after they left or make a point of calling me or coming to see me on football weekend to say how grateful they were for the University's treatment of them as veterans, and the help the University gave them, and so on. Well. DT: I 00:16:00 guess I'd like to back up just a minute on a matter that occurred to me. During the war, and perhaps immediately afterward, I'm wondering how the University dealt with the matter of exempting some men from selective service? Was there a program that you're familiar with? TZ: Yes, there was a program. And as I recall I got into it, I believe, while I was still a veterans counselor. And vice president Ira Baldwin asked me to sit on that committee, and I was then a regular member of it. It consisted of a half a dozen of us from varying departments of the University. And I think in the early days, Dean Ingraham was on it, but then Dean Ruedisili came to take his place. And I was happy to sit with it, because, just by sheer coincidence, the local Selective Service director happen to be a longstanding friend. In fact, we've been 00:17:00 fraternity brothers and lived in the same house together. And our job was to get these selective service people to refrain from taking a graduate student for military service. If you were engaged in some activity for the University, as an employee of the University, where his being taken would have meant an irreparable loss-- for a relatively short period of time, true, but nonetheless, an irreparable loss-- to a teaching program, or most of the time, to a research program. Where he and the major professor-- and usually he more than the major professor-- had the ongoing responsibility to see that the research was being forwarded and conducted according to scientific method, and so on. DT: I suppose some of this research was federally funded, too. TZ: Actually, this was true. There were programs there that Uncle Sam was very keen to see forwarded, for the aid of the war effort. Now, I can't give you details on this near as well as Ira Baldwin can, because he was a scientist and knew about some of these things. And the 00:18:00 government secrets had to be disclosed to him, as to just what the purpose of the individual research was. And oftentimes they were under a cloak of secrecy for the prevention of news getting out to the enemy that might not be what we wanted to have disseminated to them. Yes. So these were fascinating cases. And by and large, I think the record will show that our batting average-- thanks in great measure to the good assistance of Colonel Courtenay, the State Director of Selective Service in most of those crucial years-- we did excellently well in getting fellows relieved for a period of time. And it was usually for a semester, or for the balance of the year, or maybe two years, that the selective service then would say, all right, we'll give him a pass for this period of time, until you let us know you no longer need him. DT: So it would be subject to review at the end of a particular time period. TZ: Yes. Now mind you, you've got to remember that this was all in the context where the student, employee of the University, 00:19:00 teaching assistant, or research assistant, was a registered man in his local district where he had come from, where he had first registered as a prospective draftee. And while it's true most of them were from Wisconsin, these were strung out, nonetheless, all around the country. San Diego registrants and Portland, Maine registrants were matters of concern to us on occasion. And so when Colonel Courtenay took on himself the job of aiding us, make a case for a particular boy, and recommending back to the local board that he be excused, this was a tremendous help to us. Because the local board was under the gun, and under the necessity of producing x number of bodies for the draft, and was told your quota this month is so and so. And if they didn't live up to it, they were made to feel guilty about their lack of success. And so that the local board was the final arbiter of who should go and who shouldn't, you see. And all of this case of the University had to be made to the State Director of Selective Service first, and then to the local board back in Oshkosh, or Waycross, Georgia, or wherever else. And so it was a 00:20:00 rather complicated procedure, and one that craved wary walking on the part of the University. We didn't dare get ourselves know known as somebody who made our requests for exemption by the bucketful and with no consideration, because he happened to be over at the school here, you see. Which some of the other universities, or maybe colleges more, I think made that reputation for themselves. They got so that their later requests for exemption were not favorably looked on. DT: Whereas the University, you're suggesting, scrutinized each individual case on its own merits. TZ: And did a darn good job of it, as I look back at it. And as I say, that was thanks to Ira Baldwin and thanks to Colonel Bentley Courtenay that we came out so well as we did. If we'd have had some non-University man as Director of Selective Service, I think we'd have fared rather poorly in the long run. It happened to so many other universities in my experience. [BREAK IN AUDIO] [REPEATED FILE CONTENT] Their deans and personnel people would tell me, we're having a devil of a time with our state selective service board, and so on and so 00:21:00 forth. DT: Somewhat similarly, I've been wondering about what you know about the changes in the ROTC requirements. TZ: Well, if you're referring to-- well, now, on that very subject that you're talking about, several years ago, maybe a good 10 years ago, I did try to put down some notes and some writing on what I thought was a fascinating bit of the University's history. I titled it, "Compulsory ROTC versus the Conscientious Objector, dash, the University of Wisconsin's Experience." The compulsory character, I opened up, which had marked the University of Wisconsin's ROTC program since 1941, terminated by faculty and regents' action 20 years later. As in its inception, the requisite university regulation was preceded by legislation of the general assembly of the state of Wisconsin. Between the two dates, 1941 and 1960, the University was called upon to take a stand. How would it deal with those of its students who objected to the ROTC requirement and assigned conscientious objection as their motivation for doing so? Thereby hangs a tale. DT: Big problem. TZ: Yeah. The University of 00:22:00 Wisconsin is the the state's land-grant institution, as you well know. The Morrill Act, the land-grant act of 1862, provided that each state establish at least one college which would provide instruction in agriculture and the mechanical arts. The framers of this legislation reportedly thought to capitalize on the lessons apparent to a nation caught militarily unprepared by the most bloody civil war in history. They therefore marshalled patriotic support for their measure by including military tactics, along with agriculture and the mechanical arts, as a course of instruction which the designated colleges must offer. The land-grant colleges, which were to receive substantial grants of the public lands, raised no vocal objections to these provisions at the time. Every state since then to comply with the act has established at least one land-grant college within its borders where a course in military tactics is, ipso facto, offered. In the first years under the Morrill Act, the colleges concerned arbitrarily enrolled students for military tactics. Students in those days were required to register for all their courses as the faculty designated. The privilege of electing even a few courses in his total 00:23:00 program was largely in the offing for the student on the American educational scene. Whether the land-grant institution need make military instruction mandatory on its students was not interpreted officially until 1930. At that time, the attorney general gave as his opinion, quote, I advise you that you are justified in considering that an agricultural college which offers a proper substantial course in military tactics complies sufficiently with the requirement as to military tactics, even though the students at that institution are not compelled to take that course. Subsequent Supreme Court decisions adopted this same interpretation. In other words, as long as they made it available at the land-grant institution, they weren't violating the provisions of the act which gave them this federal funding. DT: So they didn't have to insist that students take it? TZ: Exactly. The University of Wisconsin offered Military Science in compliance with the law, but it was not a compulsory program. The triumphs of Hitler and the Nazi power, however, persuaded the state legislature to reexamine its universities' possible contribution to a defense effort. In 1941, the legislature acted in one particular. A law designed to prepare university male students for what might lie ahead was adopted. It read, all schools and colleges of the university shall, in their respective departments and class 00:24:00 exercises, be open without distinction to students of both sexes, and every able-bodied male student therein, except those granted exemption under rules and regulations prescribed by the Board of Regents, shall, during his freshman and sophomore years of attendance, receive instruction in military science and tactics. At an early meeting, June of '41, the regents established certain guidelines for the implementation of the new law. Specified categories of students were exempted from the military science requirement. Among them were those who were physically unfit, those who were qualified for and accepted for membership is the regimental band, those obviously, quote, obviously not fitted for military training, end of quote, in the opinion of their unit instructors. And those, quote, who are physically fit, but for bona fide 00:25:00 reasons satisfactory to the Department of Military Science and Tactics, request release from the military training. In July of '46, the Board of Regents reacted to the cessation of hostilities and adopted a new statement in this area. It was tailored to a student body comprised largely of World War II veterans, most of whom had been happy to shed the restrictions imposed by military life. The following language was approved for publication in university's catalogs. Military Science requirements. All male freshmen and sophomores are required to enroll in Military Science at the time of registration, with the provision that the following groups of students will be exempt. A, students who do not meet the established physical requirements for military science as certified by the Student Health Department. B, students who qualify and are 00:26:00 accepted for membership in the band. C, students who have served three months or more in the Armed Forces. D, students who, for other reasons, are exempt or excluded by the Department of Military Science. And E, students who complete four semesters of Naval Science will be regarded as having satisfied the requirement. As it had in the past, the University continued to make Army ROTC and Air Force ROTC available to the specially selected student in his junior and senior year. As you know, at the end of the senior year in four years of Military Science, these young men get commissioned in the reserve of the United States Army, or Air Force, or Navy. Those who continued safely and successfully, just what I said, were commissioned. There is no university record prior to 1950 of how the respective commandants of the departments of the Military Science exercised their responsibility to exempt a student from training. The unsupported facts appear to be that some were petitioned by claimed conscientious objectors who were excused. That none were 00:27:00 rejected may be presumed in that no knowledge of a rejection ever received public notice. Wisconsin students, it should be noticed, have never been loath to call attention to alleged bureaucratic bumbling, administrative ineptitude, and certainly supposed military dictatorship, when it served their purposes. General faculty awareness of the conscientious objector and his attitude to the ROTC program was first recorded in 1950. It is to be noted that neither student intransigence nor faculty solicitude initiated this first non-departmental attention. The facts were these. During the 1950-51 school year, three students, alleging their conscientious objection, approached their respective professors of military science and tactics, the commandants for Army and Air ROTC, and asked to be excused from the Military Science 00:28:00 requirements. Their petitions were taken under advisement by Colonels W.G. Skelton for the Army, and G.A. Stell for the Air Force. The former, Skelton, had been assigned to Wisconsin in September of '49, and his brother officer of the Air Force had preceded him by approximately one year. Conferences between the two commandants concerning the conscientious objector to the ROTC program led each to the same conclusion. They were unhappy with the manner in which such cases where adjudicated in the past. They felt the University should provide them assistance with the task of determining the bona fides of a petitioner. Colonel Skelton in particular expressed his real concern that a person with his background-- and he was long-time career army officer-- and beliefs could not judge fairly of a young man who refused to defend his country through service in its armed forces. Both officers took their problems to vice president Ira Baldwin, who among his many other cares, provided a University liaison with the military establishment. Quick to see the concern of the University faculty in such matters as the freedom of conscience for students, he reported the matter to the president of the University. In his report, he recommended that a committee be appointed to provide the commandants with that assistance for 00:29:00 which they had themselves asked. In pursuance of President E.B. Fred's approval of Dr. Baldwin's suggestion, and on the recommendation of the University's Administrative Committee, the Special Committee on Exemptions from ROTC was appointed on September 14, 1950. The composition of the first committee consisted of five faculty members and the two commandants for Army and Air Force, ex officio. The faculty members were C.H. Ruedisili, Abner L. Hansen, V.E. Kivlin-- Vincent Kivlin-- K.G. Schiels, and T.W. Zillman, chairman. In his letter of appointment, vice president Baldwin noted for the committee members that the regent rules, quote, apparently gives to the Department of Military Science the privilege of exempting or excluding from military drill such students as seem desirable to the department. End of quotes. He concluded by charging the committee that, quote, the commandants have suggested that they would like to have a committee to advise them regarding this problem. No other instructions than those listed above 00:30:00 were ever issued to the Special Committee on Exemptions from ROTC, either then or later, by Vice President Baldwin or President Fred. No suggestions were advanced for the conduct of the committee's business emanating from regents or administrators, not members of the committee. The confidence thus expressed was repaid by a sincere concern for the responsibilities given it. The varying members over the years of its service could be counted on to devote time and study to the general field, and particular attention to the case of the individual student. The Special Committee, however, did take advantage of a well-established practice of the Wisconsin faculty. Whenever it believed that others could make contributions to its thinking, the committee requested such assistance. Numerous articles and other written material were furnished it. Most of such assistance emanated from faculty colleagues, who learned of its responsibilities, and proffered such help. Then, too, the entire committee met at various times with faculty members, spiritual counselors of students from university religious centers and elsewhere, parents, and interested students. A number of these meetings were not occasioned because of a particular case 00:31:00 pending before the committee. From its inception, it was recognized that no one of its members could be considered specially trained on the subject of conscientious objection. Motivated to correct a deficiency, individual members of it also discussed its concerns with others whose special competence might enrich the committee's thinking. In particular, the office of the State Director of Selective Service proved most helpful. The officer in charge was Colonel Bentley Courtenay, himself a University of Wisconsin graduate. He was familiar with the University and its traditions, and well-acquainted with the problems of the CO, as the Selective Service system knew them. He and the other officers of other staff proved ever-generous when called on for information or opinion. The location of State Selective Service headquarters in Madison proved to be most fortuitous for this special committee and its special concerns. Almost coincident with its appointment, this special committee was presented cases for determination. 00:32:00 Its first meeting was scheduled for early October 1950. The time together, upwards of three hours, was spent in orienting the non-military members to the nature and scope of the committee's responsibilities and problems. The last hour or so was devoted to a hearing of one of the three students who were reported to the committee by the ex officio members of it-- that's the two military men, of course-- requesting exemption from the Military Science requirement. [BREAK IN AUDIO] All right. You on? Rather than read you details on the early cases of the committee, let me simply summarize by saying that by and large, the special committee followed the criteria set up by Congress in determining who was and who was not a conscientious objector. As you recall, the congressional act stated that the person to be considered by the Selective Service Boards for conscientious objection was a person who came to that belief through his religious training and belief. So let's then go on to consider a special case that 00:33:00 altered the committee's thinking completely and permitted it to use a much broader text of who was and who was not a conscientious objector for the purpose of being excused from the ROTC requirement at the University of Wisconsin. DT: OK, great. TZ: The case in particular was one that came to the special committee in October of 1951. It proved to be a most memorable one, and the lessons drawn from it helped, eventually, to establish a new policy for the committee's operation. Before the committee concluded with a re-hearing of the case, it had heard the testimony of and received special representations from a considerable number of the University's faculty and others. This assistance took the form of special meetings with the entire committee, where the advocate of a point of view was given free rein to express his convictions, formal written communications to it, and informal arguments advanced to individual members for transmission to the rest. The champions of the students' point of view were the more numerous and vocal. There were those however who, learning of the case, informally urged that the special committee, quote, stick to its guns, end of quotes. Period. A most interested 00:34:00 member of the committee was the referring professor of Military Science, Colonel W. G. Skelton. While he attended all meetings and asked questions of the petitioner and his counselors and friends, he took no part in the final vote which established the committee's consent. The petitioner, in this one special case for the special committee, was a 15 year old Ford Scholar, freshman student. The Ford Scholar experiment was designed to discover the educational consequences of an accelerated academic program on gifted high school students. Almost half of those selected had completed only two years of secondary schoolwork. Most of those selected received substantial financial help with the cost of their education. The Ford Foundation hoped that the findings of the study might be of significance in planning future curriculum for talented students, who would also be faced with an obligation to the nation's defense program. The petitioner was typical of those chosen. He was precocious, personable, and readily 00:35:00 distinguished as one younger than his college peers. He and his fellow Scholars readily won the interest and sympathy of his teachers. They remained marked men doing the course of their careers at Wisconsin. With few exceptions, their academic performance continued at the college level that same high standard presaged in their preparatory studies. The committee's procedures had by this time become standardized in certain particulars. The student presented his own written petition outlining why he should be considered conscientious objector, in his opinion. He was asked to accompany this with written statements from others who could testify to the bona fides of his beliefs. He was then invited to appear before the committee to supplement his written presentation and answer any questions which the members might choose to ask. The young man in this case presented a, quote, Brief for Committee for Conscientious Objectors, end of quotes. It read as follows. I am a conscientious objector to all wars and training for war, because I believe in the basic goodness of mankind. I believe that this basic goodness is the thing which 00:36:00 most people call a soul. I believe that this soul is a part of one great soul, which embraces all nature, not just every man, but animals and plants as well. Thus this basic goodness, or soul, not only becomes sacred but also emphasizes the foolishness of man's self-imposed prejudice and intolerance, factors upon which a war is built. Many people say that we have to stop communism, and that the only way to stop it is to fight it by wars. However, if communism is as evil as people say it is, I cannot see how we are right in resorting to its own evil methods in the attempt to stop it. My teachers have been such people as Christ and Gandhi, and my hope is through the actions of people like them, and through my own humble action, people can begin to see that perhaps there is another way out. I do not claim that I can solve the world's difficulties now, but it is my firm conviction that war certainly can't, and won't, stop them, and therefore, I cannot participate in any action that has it as its objective war or training for war. End of his quotes. The young man supported this petition with letters from two pastors, a University alumnus and friend of his family, an assistant executive secretary of the American Friends Service Committee, the executive secretary of the Central Committee for 00:37:00 Conscientious Objectors, and Professor Francis Hole of the University of Wisconsin's College of Agriculture. Each believed that the student was a sincere and idealistic young man, who was sincere when he states that he is now a conscientious objector. The two spiritual counselors who testified were not from a traditional peace church and knew him as a parishioner, the one at home and the other in Madison. The friend of the family, among other things, described the fine character of the student and his parents. He told of the mother's abhorrence of racial segregation and discrimination. They were the type of people, he reported, for whom it is second nature to do what is right, regardless of the consequences. The two gentlemen of the Society of Friends described their acquaintance with the petitioner at a Friends Service Committee World Affairs Camp two months earlier. The camp was of one week's duration, and the student was described, in the opinion of one, as quote, very much inclined to accept pacifism completely, and 00:38:00 that he would move in the direction of full acceptance, end of quotes. The other stated that, quote, during that period, August 5 to 12, 1951, we discussed pacifism and conscientious objection to war a good deal, and I found him to be deeply and sincerely concerned about these matters. I felt he was at a point where he might very well have moved on to becoming a conscientious objector himself. End of quotes. Professor Hole wrote the committee, after considerable discussion with Mr. So-and-So, I conclude that he is a sincere and bona fide conscientious objector to war and preparation for war. End of quotes. Neither he nor the others claimed for the student, however, that he had arrived at his conscientious objection position through religious training and belief. The committee spent considerable time with Mr. So-and-So in an effort to ascertain the past history of his conscientious objection and the sincerity of his belief, the chairman of the committee recorded in the all-too-brief minutes of the meeting. The committee then adjourned two hours after it was initially called to order and set a time five days later for the further consideration of the matter. When the community reconvened, it discussed the case of the Ford Scholar again in some detail. It felt that it would be well to 00:39:00 hear from a representative of those faculty members who had interested themselves on behalf of the student concerned. Especially could one be helpful who prided himself on a record of long and continued interest in conscientious objectors, and the religious, moral, and philosophical reasons motivating them to their point of view. After some discussion, it was agreed to hear from one of the most outspoken of such, and a further meeting was arranged less than one week later. Professor Howard K. Beale appeared before the committee. He gave it the benefit of his experience and understanding of the problems encountered by the committee in the incident case. In October '51, Professor Beale had not as yet much quarrel with the test for determining conscientious objectives as that it was written into this Selective Service Act. He believed, for example, that religious training and belief should be interpreted broadly, and the objector need not be a number of a peace church, so-called. He did not advocate, however, that the objector might be a bona fide one and at the same time admit himself an atheist. He argued that the student's objection was based on religious grounds. Professor Beale indicated that much of his experience 00:40:00 with the CO had been occasioned by his interest in and his working with the Society of Friends. Professor Beale left the committee at the conclusion of a question and answer period which followed his formal presentation. This was approximately one hour and 15 minutes after the session was convened. The committee then declared itself as ready to vote on the case of the Ford Scholar after an approximate half hour of additional discussion and debate. It was properly moved, seconded, passed that the young man had not made a case which the committee could support. He would not, therefore, be recommended for exemptions from the Military Science requirement. The decision was a unanimous one. It was the consensus of the group that the young man was still so recently converted to his point of view, August to October, that the bona fides and sincerity of his convictions were open to question. Then, too, there was clearly no showing of religious training and belief as a basis for the student's CO viewpoint. It was felt he needed further time to reflect on his step, and the consequences to him of his announced decision. The student 00:41:00 and his commandant were notified of the committee's negative recommendation on October 24, 1951. In February of 1952, the special committee received letters from Professor Walter R. Agard, Paul MacKendrick, and student pastor George L. Collins. These all expressed their unhappiness with the student's plight and recommended that the committee reopen this case and give him unusually sympathetic consideration, especially in view of his perhaps inadequate explanation previously to your committee. That all being in quotes. On April 17, 1952, the student wrote the committee to place the matter on the agenda formally. He stated in part, quote, I would like to request a re-hearing for consideration of my conscientious objection to ROTC. In your decision of October 22, '51, you stated that due to various reasons you must refuse my request for deferment from ROTC. One of these reasons was that I was inexperienced, and my decision was too hasty. As six months have passed since that time, and I feel even more strongly about the matter, I feel justified in asking for a re-hearing. The student, in response to the suggestion that he 00:42:00 prepare a revised statement, complied therewith. He highlighted new evidence, in quotes, which had not previously been submitted to the committee. Among this material were letters from Professors J.G. Winans and John T. Emlen. In addition, Professor William Gordon Rice appeared before the committee at the hearing to aid the student in the presentation of his case and assist the committee with his point of view. By this time, the committee was presented with the argument that the University should go beyond the Selective Service legal test in its inquiring into the bona fides of the CO. Professor Rice championed this point of view, and Professor John Emlen wrote the committee, quotes, convictions do not have to be religiously based in the narrow sense of the word religious. At a university, we should be just as much interested in preserving the American institution of freedom of thought as that of religion, and I would like to see his case reviewed on those grounds. End of quotes. The student's written presentation to the committee containing the following statement. Quote, as the committee seemed to feel that my action as a pacifist was taken with no adequate background, I here submit my view of why I took this stand. I have always thought of problems connected with war and the result that war brings 00:43:00 about, especially in this time of great disruptive weapons and little moral concern. I was very concerned over the horror that followed Germany's bombing of cities, and then the subsequent